Rogers High Fidelity 65V-1 integrated amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

I measured the Rogers High Fidelity 65V-1 with my Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see the January 2008 "As We See It"). The maximum gain at 1kHz into 8 ohms varied with operating mode and output tube and was mostly lower than specified, ranging from 18.7dB (KT88s, triode mode) and 21.3dB (EL34s, triode) to 23.8dB (KT88s, Ultralinear mode) and 25.85dB (EL34s, Ultralinear)—all lower than the norm for an integrated amplifier. The maximum gain at the headphone jack measured 25dB. Both the speaker and headphone outputs preserved absolute polarity (ie, were non-inverting) in all modes and with both types of output tube. I controlled the 65V-1 with the Bluetooth-connected iPad app. As downloaded, the meter on the iPad app wasn't calibrated: a measured level of 0.33W into 8 ohms was displayed as 25W!

The input impedance was a usefully high 57k ohms at all audio frequencies. The output impedance was very high, and again varied with operating mode and output tube, as well as with frequency. In triode mode with Herb Reichert's preferred EL34 tubes, the output impedance ranged from 3.7 ohms at 20Hz and 20kHz to 4.3 ohms at 1kHz. As a result, the variation in frequency response into our standard simulated loudspeaker was very high, at a very audible ±2.2dB (fig.1, gray trace), and there were large changes in output level as the load impedance changed from 8 to 2 ohms. The impedance was even higher in Ultralinear mode, reaching 6.8 ohms at 1kHz with KT88 tubes and 8.8 ohms with EL34 tubes, giving rise to response variations of ±3.3dB with the latter (fig.2, gray trace). A small peak at 120kHz can be seen in this graph, which is associated with some damped ringing with a 10kHz squarewave (fig.3).

618Rog65fig01.jpg

Fig.1 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green) (1dB/vertical div.).

618Rog65fig02.jpg

Fig.2 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, Ultralinear mode, frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green) (1dB/vertical div.).

618Rog65fig03.jpg

Fig.3 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, Ultralinear mode, small-signal, 10kHz squarewave into 8 ohms.

Channel separation was modest, at 60dB in both directions at 1kHz and around 45dB at the frequency extremes. I monitored the waveform of the crosstalk on an oscilloscope to ensure that I was measuring actual crosstalk and not noise. The wideband, unweighted signal/noise ratio, taken with the inputs shorted to ground but the volume control set to its maximum—the worst case—was also modest, at 60.4dB in triode mode, 56.6dB in Ultralinear, both ratios ref. 1W into 8 ohms. Switching an A-weighting filter into circuit improved these ratios to 76.6 and 72.4dB, and spectral analysis of the amplifier's low-frequency noise floor (fig.4) revealed spuriae at power-supply–related frequencies, as well as a rise in the random noise floor in the lower midrange and below.

618Rog65fig04.jpg

Fig.4 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, spectrum of 1kHz sinewave, DC–1kHz, at 1W into 8 ohms (linear frequency scale).

An EL34 tube operated as a single-ended triode is not going to be able to deliver much power, and fig.5 indicates that, with our usual definition of clipping—ie, when the percentage of THD+noise reaches 1%—the Rogers clipped at just 270mW into 8 ohms. Relaxing the definition to 3% allowed the 65V-1 in triode mode with EL34s to deliver 2.275W into 8 ohms and into 4 ohms (fig.6), the amplifier clipped at 1.6W (1% THD+N), 4.15W (3%), and 8W (10%). More power was available in Ultralinear mode, both with EL34s (fig.7) and KT88s (fig.8), where a THD+N of 3% was reached at a respective 5.5W and 6W into 8 ohms. But the Rogers 65V-1 is undoubtedly a low-power, high-distortion design. Worried that our review sample may have been faulty, I checked the measurements that Rogers's Roger Gibboni had included; I am confident that my measurements characterize this unit's behavior.

618Rog65fig05.jpg

Fig.5 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, distortion (%) vs 1kHz continuous output power into 8 ohms.

618Rog65fig06.jpg

Fig.6 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, distortion (%) vs 1kHz continuous output power into 4 ohms.

618Rog65fig07.jpg

Fig.7 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, Ultralinear mode, distortion (%) vs 1kHz continuous output power into 8 ohms.

618Rog65fig08.jpg

Fig.8 Rogers 65V-1, KT88s, Ultralinear mode, distortion (%) vs 1kHz continuous output power into 8 ohms.

Fig.9 shows how the THD+N percentage varies with frequency with EL34 tubes in triode mode at 125mW into 8 ohms (blue and red traces) and into 4 ohms (cyan, magenta). As expected from figs. 5 and 6, the THD+N is lower into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, but is still high. It was even higher in Ultralinear mode, but fortunately, the distortion is predominantly the subjectively innocuous second harmonic (fig.10). However, some higher-order harmonics were present at low frequencies (fig.11). While high-order intermodulation distortion with an equal mix of 19 and 20kHz tones was fairly low, the second-order difference product at 1kHz reached 1% even in the lowest-distortion condition: triode mode with EL34s into 4 ohms (fig.12).

618Rog65fig09.jpg

Fig.9 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, THD+N (%) vs frequency at 1V into: 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta).

618Rog65fig10.jpg

Fig.10 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, 1kHz waveform at 1V into 8 ohms, 0.75% THD+N (top); distortion and noise waveform with fundamental notched out (bottom, not to scale).

618Rog65fig11.jpg

Fig.11 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, spectrum of 50Hz sinewave, DC–1kHz, at 1V into 8 ohms (linear frequency scale).

618Rog65fig12.jpg

Fig.12 Rogers 65V-1, EL34s, triode mode, HF intermodulation spectrum, DC–30kHz, 19+20kHz at 1V peak into 4 ohms (linear frequency scale).

Its measured performance indicates that the Rogers 65V-1 really should be used only with high-sensitivity loudspeakers, but even then, its high output impedance means that its sonic signature will be different with every speaker, and its distortion signature may well fatten the sound. But props to Roger Gibboni for the useful iPad app.—John Atkinson

COMPANY INFO
Rogers High Fidelity
28 Church Street
Warwick, NY 10990
(845) 987-7744
ARTICLE CONTENTS

COMMENTS
tonykaz's picture

... for a Story!

HR does the bestist "Click-Bait" in the Audiophile Business.

I'll tell ya who that might be: Steve G visiting the Bunker delivering an On-Site Vlog Report. That geeky guy with all those Pass Apleflyers stacked up on his Altar to Gear Collecting. The very same guy that pointed me to Shit Asgard Amplification ( back in 2011, along with his side-man Tyll ) , this Guy has more Integrity than nearly anyone in NY,NY for gods sake. On top of it all he's got a way-cool shirt collection. Hmm.

This tiny Amp Review is one of the best Reads of the Year, so far.

Steve G & HR seemed to have survived the big Buy-out, phew, I was getting worried.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.

Please suggest that Steve spend some of his Mountainous Patereon Money on a Canon 6D & Vlog Lense system. The lads at B&H are waiting for him to walk thru their doors. Steve G can become the Casey Neistat of the Audio World!

Tony in Michigan

ps. I once owned a Nisson Pulsar 5 door Hatchback with 60 horsepower. It was that fastest little get around car I ever owned, it had to be driven intelligently but it delivered exceptional performance. QRP is a thinking man's effective tool.

ps. My Vote for Quote of the Year: "never heard an EL84 amp I didn't like"

ps. Mr. JohnnyThunder corrected me and my quoting of the quote. it's EL34 not EL84! Thanks Mr.Thunder

johnnythunder's picture

which is fab especially as I agree. It's the EL 34 tube that he is talking about the EL 84. EL 84s are good but EL 34s are magical.

tonykaz's picture

Right you are !!

I was in too much of a rush, trying to push out that Comment in between two scheduled things.

Plus, I wanted to be the FIRST one to respond, resulting in another proof for the Life Rule : "More haste, less speed" .

Thanks for writing and making the correction,

You da Man!!

Tony in Michigan

ps. EL34s even have a nicer smell. ( if anyone's in to that sort of thing, like I am )

Jason P Jackson's picture

I agree. It was this review that convinced me enough to get a yearly subs'. Mags like this one have their fair share of waffle. Nevertheless, good with the bad. And I've been known for my own occasional waffle.

mrkaic's picture

"Now I'm reporting on another class-A, single-ended amplifier, this one really low-powered. The 65V-1 integrated amplifier ($4000) uses EL34 or KT88 pentode tubes—at the time of purchase, the user specifies his or her preference—and is made by mainstream manufacturer Rogers High Fidelity, in Warwick, New York."

KT88 are TETRODES. KT stands for "kinkless tetrode". What an elementary mistake!!

Herb Reichert's picture

are Genalex and manufactured by New Sensor:

https://www.newsensor.com/pdf/genalex/kt88-genalex.pdf

they have five elements

mrkaic's picture

...the Genalex KT88 is just like any other KT88. It has the plate, the control grid, the screen grid, the cathode, and a pair of beam forming plates that are both connected to the cathode. That seems like five elements (counting the beam plate pair as one element) but only four different active electrodes exist in this type of tube, because the beam forming plates are connected to the cathode inside the tube. You can see that in the link you provided.

Now, a pentode has the plate and the cathode. It also has three grids: control, screen and suppression. Each of these elements has an active electrode, hence pentode — five active electrodes.

See this, for example https://drtube.com/datasheets/el34-sed2002.pdf

So, Genalex can call their KT88 whatever they want, but according to their own scheme, their KT88 has four active electrodes. The nomenclature depends on the number of active electrodes— Hence KT88 is a tetrode.

jmsent's picture

the original MO Valve Genalex datasheet calls the KT88 a beam tetrode. The New Sensor Genalex datasheet calls the same tube a beam pentode. The RCA datasheet calls it a "beam power tube". Seems like a grey area.

Herb Reichert's picture

If memory serves me, MO Valve invented the KT88 and it is as they say: a beam tetrode. But at that time, Phillips owned the patent for the power pentode and therefore all companies not associated with Phillips or unwilling to pay the license fee were forced to make “beam tetrodes” wherein instead of grid 3, the suppressor grid, a beam tetrode uses the concentration of the ion stream to do the same job. I call them all “beam tubes” as that is their common distinction.

I did however, as a proper fact-checking journalist, have to call the Rogers’ KT88s what their manufacturer calls them – pentodes. (Why does New Sensor call them beam pentodes? Don’t know. Maybe the Phillips patent is still in effect?)

But these are just words. To me, beam tubes have a unique sound character of their own, which, depending on the materials used in their construction, can range from turbocharged noisy harsh to beautifully lucid and hyper-detailed – like the original MO Valve KT88 beam tetrode.

Sorry for the confusion

herb

mrkaic's picture

You put a lot of effort into fact checking, that is quite amazing. Many thanks.

hifiluver's picture

Regarding Fig 2. Does this mean this amp will sound like it has a dip around the human voice with a shrill sound as the frequency goes up? My 15 year old Yamaha surround amp is a Ferrari compared to this Ford Model T.

johnnythunder's picture

would be able to discern the difference in sound quality between the Rogers amp and your "15 year old Yamaha surround amp." Obviously, I wouldn't use the Rogers amp for a home theatre system playing a Michael Bay film but that's another story entirely.

dce22's picture

It's 4000 bucks garbage for that kind of money you can buy one of the best if not the best tube amp in the world

Music Reference RM-200

https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-reference-rm-200-mkii-power-amplifier

ironically designed by the other Roger, Rogers needs to step up it's game if it wants to compete with Music Reference.

mrkaic's picture

Or one could buy a Quad VA One, also a superb amplifier.

ok's picture

..a tube guy after all.

mrkaic's picture

I enjoy my little VA One tremendously.

ok's picture

..as I always suspected!

johnnythunder's picture

for a $4k expenditure. Or that it even looks good (it doesn't in my opinion.) I have no doubt that the Music Reference is a fine sounding amp (it looks great too.) My comment was for the equally glib comparison of the Rogers vs. a 15 yr. old Yamaha surround sound amp.

mrkaic's picture

...probably look better than anything out there. If you can't measure gear, you might be very happy with them -- as was I, for a time. My LM-216 sounded good and looked marvelous. But after I had measured it, I had to return it. I suspect that the thing must have had bad output transformers, since the response to square wave input showed intolerable ringing. So, there you go. Still miss the looks of that amp, but one has to be ruthless with gear that measures poorly. Looks are not everything, ears can be deceived easily, but oscilloscopes don't lie (if you know what you are doing). Incidentally, Quad VA One has great looks and measures well.

johnnythunder's picture

by a group that has obviously done their vintage audio equipment homework. I actually am not looking for a new amp. I have a Lector ZXT-60 hybrid integrated. The design is simple and elegant and has a high wife acceptance factor. She did not want exposed valves. An upgrade for me would probably be for something in the French Audiomat line. Class A. EL 34s. Synergistic match with my French JMR speakers.

woodford's picture

thanks for the great review- it's wonderful reading.

i wonder how the amp might sound w/ KT77s? in my, admittedly limited, experience KT77s provide the saturation of EL34s you speak of, with the punch and dynamics of KT88s. i use them in my Icon Audio ST40 in Triode mode, and they sound fabulous.

btw, the Icon is an amp stereophile should review.

John Atkinson's picture
woodford wrote:
i wonder how the amp might sound w/ KT77s? in my, admittedly limited, experience KT77s provide the saturation of EL34s you speak of, with the punch and dynamics of KT88s.

Years ago I replaced the EL34S in my Michaelson & Austin TVA-10 with KT77s that I had purchased from the M-O Valve Company. My experience was similar to yours.

woodford wrote:
i use them in my Icon Audio ST40 in Triode mode, and they sound fabulous. btw, the Icon is an amp stereophile should review.

As Icon currently has just 2 retailers in the US, the brand doesn't qualify for a full review. (We require a brand be available from 5 or more US dealers.)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

woodford's picture

I wonder whether the 5 dealer policy should be revisited for an age in which many consumers do their shopping online. assuming of course the online dealer (in this case, Music Direct) is reputable, and services all or most of the country.

in any event, it's a great amp in my opinion, easily competitive with similar amps from Line Magnetic, Prima Luna, et al.

dalethorn's picture

To me, online buying raises the issue of returned merchandise. I wouldn't expect most returned items to be repackaged and sold as new, but premium amps aren't like clothing and other easily exchanged or refunded goods sold online, and I wouldn't expect such dealers to take a beating having to sell the returned items as used.

Anton's picture

Seems like an online product, to me, as well.

Good return policy, factory warranted online dealer...I'd give it thumbs up!

woodford's picture

John- i wonder whether there's really a material difference between domestic manufacturers like Zu and Schiit that sell direct, and imports like Icon which sell primarily through a single online outlet. Stereophile has reviewed products from both of the former.

tonykaz's picture

I'd have no trouble accepting any of their stuff which sells used on Ebay for around 80% + for a "Previously Owned" current Model.

Besides...

... used eBay prices are a dam good way to evaluate Gear's ability to please "Real" owners.

Tony in Michigan

ps. most Loudspeakers don't do well in the Used Market but those cute little LS3/5s still get mucho dinero ( x5 original Retail Prices )

rt66indierock's picture

I read your Rogers view just before I left for T.H.E. Show. When I walked into Room 312 and saw the AGD Vivance Monoblock I thought of your first paragraph. Give them Class D in a Vacuum tube and audiophiles will lap it up.

johnnythunder's picture

I'd prefer Rogers hold down the Class A tube fort the good of all audiophiles (that like low power and the inherent restrictions/sonic benefits of Class A amp that is.) If I could own one Rogers product and had the space for a larger tube phono stage it would be the Rogers PA-1A.

rt66indierock's picture

This is class D in the tube. Looks like a tube mono amp. Rogue is a hybrid. This isn't.

I listened for a long time to the amp at T.H.E. Show because of the Allen Sides speakers. Because who am I kidding there are things I like and his Eureka speakers have them. Very surprising for a speaker with a port. The Monterey's in a bad room sounded pretty good.

hifiluver's picture

i have a looping video of an open fire place on my flat panel display but it doesn’t keep me warm in winter.

Tubes are funny honeys. They have a freq. response which can be replicated on a solid state amp coupled to a $50 dollar second hand graphic equaliser. The harmonic distortion can be introduced with shareware software. Pity I can’t replicate the lack of clean transparent power with little control over those big woofers.

13DoW's picture

There is very little say that is positive about the measured performance "But props to Roger Gibboni for the useful iPad app" :)

billyb's picture

Mr. Atkinson,
Would it be fair to say this review includes one of the worst test bench results for an amplifier in Stereophile history?
Obviously, with a square wave and distortion like that, there is much to criticize.

We all know test results only tell part of the story from a subjective listening perspective, but when you receive such an outlier on the bench wouldn’t you be doing a service to the readers to expound in a leeetle more detail than the mic drop above implies?

lousyreeds1's picture

Herb, I would love to know how Decware's low-watt and VERY affordable SET amps perform in your system up against the likes of Pass, Line Magnetic, Rogers, etc. Seems like with your small space and high-sensitivity speaker collection, Decware could be a good fit.

Thanks for the great review.

dalethorn's picture

I'd add a vote for Decware as well. They put a lot of emphasis on keeping the signal path as clean and uncluttered as possible, even if there's a risk of blowing a component because they don't include as much protection as their competitors.

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