However, the darTZeel's sonic purity and transparency have made it my reference preamplifier, especially when its signals are routed via its Zeel BNC 50-ohm, transmission-line BNC jacks to my darTZeel NHB-458 monoblocks. Today there are many great choices in electronics, and I've reviewed quite a few since buying the expensive NHB-458s ($144,500/pair)—but I'm done!
I wish darTZeel Audio had wider distribution in the US, so that more people could hear this stuff—especially those who can afford it.
Shunyata Research's groundbreaking Hydra Denali D2000/T and D6000/T power conditioners
Shunyata Research's Caelin Gabriel (footnote 5) is one of a handful of developers of power-conditioning products whom I take 100% seriously. A few years ago, when I swapped out one of Shunyata's Hydra Triton series of power conditioners for an upgraded version, I heard some improvements in the sound of my system, especially a reduction in transient "edginess." When I then visited the factory, Gabriel showed me measurements of both models that confirmed what I'd heard, and why.
At the 2015 Consumer Electronics Show, another of that handful of developers I take seriously, AudioQuest's Garth Powell, who used to work for Furman Power, had a stack of power conditioners that he was comparing with AudioQuest's Niagara 7000, which he'd designed. When he asked the crowd of audio writers which product in the stack they'd first like to compare with the Niagara 7000, it was unanimous: the Shunyata Hydra Triton. It has become the reference against which all other power conditioners are measured.
The ensuing demonstration shocked the assembled: Compared to the Niagara 7000 ($7995, footnote 6), the system powered by the original Hydra Triton ($4995) sounded closed-in, almost muffled. Yes, it filtered out the considerable crap of the Venetian Hotel's power lines, but at the steep price of snuffing out transparency and high-frequency extension. I heard the same thing at home; and so, after many years of satisfied use of Shunyata products I defected to the AudioQuest Niagara 7000. (Note: I own all of my reference gear except the power conditioners, which are loaners.)
Now from Shunyata comes the new Denali series of power conditioners, in intriguingly shaped cases and at far lower prices. They sent me two D2000/Ts ($3495 each), each with two AC outlets (one for each of my darTZeel monoblocks), and one larger, vertically configured D6000/T ($4995) with three outlet pairs, which I used for my line-level gear (though the D6000/T's lowermost duplex outlet is claimed to be able to deliver unlimited current to the most powerful amps).
The D6000/T's tall, narrow shape means that precious shelf space can be reserved for signal-bearing products, while its 50mm, vibration-damping stainless-steel footers obviate the need for placing it on a dedicated platform. To counter power-cord droop—which worsens with the height of the power outlet above the floor, and can cause a plug to fall out—Shunyata invented an ingenious cradle system that keeps plugs plugged in.
Most important is what's inside. There you'll find new noise-reduction technology resulting from Shunyata's work in the biomedical field. Clear Image Scientific (CIS), a sister company, markets a version of the Denali that, per Shunyata, has been well received in medical circles.
Shunyata specifies for the Denalis measured noise rejection of >60dB (500kHz–10MHz)—"more than three times the normal noise isolation common to most power conditioners." According to Shunyata, "power conditioners of all types, such as iso-transformers, chokes, coils, regenerators, even the AQ Niagara [my italics] units post a measured spec of noise isolation between –20 to 28dB at 1MHz." But Shunyata doesn't explain how noise at a frequency of 1MHz can affect the audioband (20Hz–20kHz).
The Denalis include Shunyata's QR/BB technology (patent pending), to eliminate "the sense of dynamic compression often heard when an amplifier is connected to a power conditioner." They claim that QR/BB, which is not based on capacitors or inductors but is a "passive materials–based approach," provides better dynamics than plugging components directly into the wall.
Each pair of AC outlets incorporates noise-eliminating filters similar to those used in the Triton v1 and v2 models, but with a claimed wider bandwidth. These are designed to eliminate component-to-component interference by capturing and isolating the noise commonly generated by component power supplies. Also included is a smaller, more efficient version of Shunyata's patented Noise Isolation Chamber, claimed to significantly reduce electromagnetic interference.
Shunyata claims that Caelin Gabriel's new Kinetic Phase Inversion Process (KPIP) is "likely his greatest invention"—a metals-treatment process claimed to be able to produce, within days, a degree of break-in whose audible results would otherwise take years. "Right out of the box," Shunyata claims, "KPIP treated products will sound better than the same product that was broken-[in] during normal use for two years." They also claim that KPIP deals not just with burn-in but improves wire directionality. The Denali series includes other technology and construction techniques that you can learn more about here.
Head to Head with the AudioQuest Niagara 7000: As Shunyata took direct aim at AudioQuest's Niagara 7000 power conditioner, I thought I'd compare them myself. But first, I replaced the two Niagara 7000s (one for line-level gear, one for power amps) with the two Denali D2000/Ts and one Denali D6000/T Shunyata had sent and just listened. Given the demo at CES 2015 mentioned above, if the sound was now more open than through the Niagara 7000s, that would represent a major improvement.
And that's what I heard: The sound through the Denalis was more open and brighter than through the Niagaras. It also seemed more exuberant, and punchier.
When I then unplugged the amps from the two Denali 2000/Ts and plugged them directly into the wall, the sound became coarser and less organized. So back those plugs went, into the Denalis. I recorded at 24/96 "That Happy Feeling," by Bert Kaempfert and His Orchestra, from a four-song EP produced from the master tapes in 2004 by the German audio magazine Image Hifi (12" 45rpm, Imagehifi 007). No CD could ever sound like this.
Then, with the Niagaras back in the system, I recorded the track again. I now had two needle drops of the same cut, the only difference being the power conditioner into which the front-end—the phono preamp, preamp, A/D converter, etc.—was plugged when I recorded each (footnote 7).
Repeated plays of this feel-good, audio-porn sonic spectacular easily demonstrated the differences: "That Happy Feeling" begins with flute and xylophone in the right channel, and drum-kit brushes behind a centered kick drum. After a few bars, what sounds like a twangy, muted Fender Telecaster enters in the left channel. Following this intro, as the main melody begins, a strummed guitar appears in the left channel, as well as a somewhat boomy bass guitar.
The Shunyatas' version produced somewhat brighter brushes but with less definition of transients, a bigger but sloppier-sounding kick drum with less-well-defined attacks, longer sustains, and longer but less tidy decays. The bass guitar was less well controlled than through the Niagaras—it seemed to keep going when it should have stopped. The strings, when they entered, had more metallic sizzle. Same with the trumpet, flugelhorn, and handclaps (which had a slightly metallic, processed quality through both sets of power conditioners).
"That Happy Feeling" was louder through the Shunyatas. Was this wider dynamics or less? Was the top-end sizzle and the rest of what I heard through the Shunyatas what's actually on the record but was suppressed by the Niagaras? Or were the Shunyatas—in addition to their excellent suppression of the noise that was clearly audible when I plugged the amps directly into the wall—producing new artefacts of their own?
I don't know. However, I can say without reservation that, compared to what I remember of the sound of Shunyata's Hydra Triton v2 power conditioners, their new Denali models produced a far more open sound against super-"black" backgrounds.
As with comparisons of loudspeakers, I'd be careful about jumping to any conclusions based on a quick A/B. But after Wilson Audio's Alexx speakers had been installed, for the listening for my review of them, I ran a quick A/B of the AudioQuest Niagara 7000s and Shunyata Denalis at the power-amp end. Generally, I heard what I've described in these longer, more detailed comparisons.
Footnote 6: AudioQuest, 2621 White Road, Irvine, CA 92614. Tel: (949) 585-0111. Fax: (949) 585-0333. Web: www.audioquest.com
Footnote 7: The two recordings can be found here.
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COMMENTS
Almost 50 K to listen to records. Hoo boy. And that doesn't even include the astronomically priced TT and cartridge.At the risk of stating the obvious I can think of at least a few other things upon which that kind of money would be better spent. And none of them are related to home audio. In fact none of them are related to self gratification at all.
I love reading about this gear, any phono/vinyl gear for that matter. For me, it's great escapism. Also, I am always surprised to see regular Joe Blow engineers/doctors in my hi-fi Facebook groups owning this gear. It proves some are passionate about music and are not millionaires, but willing to put down their hard-earned cash for this exclusive gear. To that I say more power to them.
Hi
"engineers/doctor" are not "regular Joe Blow" down the road as they normally make much more money to afford buying hi-end audios.
Even many rich/non-rich consumers don't go for audio let alone "millionaires". There are so many other leisure hobbies to go for !!!
Do you mind paying $50K for a phono-preamp ??????
Jack L
JACK L: "engineers/doctor" are not "regular Joe Blow" down the road as they normally make much more money to afford buying hi-end audios.
This is a very pedestrian and misinformed comment. I am married to a doctor, so like it or not, I hang around in these medical circles and know what they’re making. There are many doctors with varying salary levels. Some wait for NIH funding money to make a living and need to supplement their income by working in the ER or be on call on weekends to make a little more money. These make less than I do. Others are in clinic, see their patients and if they make their allotted goals can get a bonus, they don’t make as much as you think, especially living in a city like NYC. In short, the average salary of doctors who work in clinic is below average of your wall street, hedge fund, commodities guys. The ones that do very well are trauma surgeons, and cardiovascular surgeons and any other type of doctor who does procedures.
A few of these doctors I have met are audiophiles. I met a pediatrician in Pennsylvania who loved Linn gear so much he had a Kairn, Klout, and Kremlin in three bedrooms. That’s around $30,000 before speakers and cables. As a pediatrician in a small town, he wasn’t making huge amounts, but was happy to dabble in his hobby. Another doctor who lives in Brooklyn has a vast collection of jazz records played through pricey Nagra amps and Verity Audio speakers. Again average salaried doctor who spends what is left of his hard earned money to dabble in his musical enjoyment. Not a millionaire.
I have also met engineers in Europe that my cousin knows who after paying their 50% plus income taxes and all other taxes, including VAT on almost everything they purchase, finance their pricey hi-fi because that is quite popular and allows the buyer to upgrade through their dealer when time comes.
My point? These are regular people, everyday people who drive 20-year-old cars, wear Levis Dockers and Land’s End shirts, pay a mortgage, live in expensive cities and who stretch their budgets to buy this gear.
JACK L: Even many rich/non-rich consumers don't go for audio let alone "millionaires". There are so many other leisure hobbies to go for !!!
- WHO CARES!!!
JACK L: Do you mind paying $50K for a phono-preamp ??????
Nope, don’t mind spending that kind of money for hi-fi gear. If it meets certain criteria I would certainly purchase.
Hi
So apparently you are making good income much much better than those doctors in USA you mentioned & those "engineers in Europe" to pay $50K for a phono-preamp ! Lucky man !
So your "point" is "there are REGULAR people" who don't mind go broke to own hi-end audio by hook or by crook !
Common sense told us there should not be many such "regular people" ever exist ! Either such 'regular people" are single without companion/family or live with their parents with food/living place provided for free or maybe of limited livetime due to incurable sickness.........
Sorry, I would NOT buy your such extreme rare excuses !!!
Jack L
I gave you real examples, I cannot give out names, but these are people who have real jobs and real financial demands. No one is going broke buying this gear, but they make sacrifices to buy it. I think it’s rational actors making rational decisions, that we all make with big ticket items. I guess in your case, “reading is not believing”.
There’s more I could say but that will suffice.
Hi
YOU miss the point, pal !
I never said you lied. Yet the way you put it "regular Joe Blow ..." alredy gave us the impression that many such people do exist who don't mind go broke to borrow money to buy hi-end audios.
The fact there are only a very few who were 'crazy' enough to do such irrgular thing if any at all.
"That's YOUR problem" as you brought such uncommon special case up as a matter of course !
Jack L
I don’t miss any points, what I miss is that you are not very good at explaining your positions or counter arguments, because of your weak writing. Like I said below, nuance! You cannot express yourself properly, you make assumptions about my writing that are way off. These people are Joe Blows, educated yes, but regular folk who make choices to buy pricey hi-fi because they love the gear and music. They keep these companies going. I am not sure what else more I can tell you. But you clearly have no concept of purchasing power and how people live and make decisions in some parts of the world.
I will conclude that I find your mantra “hearing is believing” a complete lie, you’ve probably not heard any of this gear to be able to judge, yet are quick to mock these products, made by real engineers, who took a financial chance to build something out of pure passion, and you a person who claims to be an engineer mocks them is not nice pal!
Hi
My goodness, more you talk more you get confused ! You need a coffee to wake yourself up ! Pal.
Where in forum I ever mention I ever heard this phono-preamp ?? Show it !
I only responded to David Harper's comment:
"I only wish to suggest that perhaps some audiophiles would do well to reconsider their priorities when it comes to their disposable income."
I totally agree to his comment as any decent thinking person should do.
Never mentioned about the sound of this $5 grander phono-preamp at all !!!!
YOU jumped in to disgree to D Harper's comment using "regular Joe Blow .." would spend 50 grands to buy this preamp !!
Wake up !
Listening music with own ears is believing. But I never listened to this phono-preamp & never "judge" its sound which you claim I did. Give me a break !
Listening to music with own ears is believing
Jack L
You criticize anything that costs money, including this review, yet you never heard them, then you talk about how you’re a cheapskate and wouldn’t pay this kind of money for this or that, and how smart you are to build your own systems, and then in another post you say how you flew to Japan to listen to Audio Note equipment at great cost. It’s ridiculous, everything you try to say is poorly worded, poorly written and nonsensical, irrational. You should write your own book; “Diary of a Madman; The life of Jack L”. You’re all over the place, you contradict yourself, you make no sense. I am beginning to think you’re not a real person, but a troll account set up just to have some fun. Because no one can be this irrational and dense. It’s truly amazing the level of ignorance.
HI
So YOU are even worse than "an idiot" & a "Liar! YOU are too proud to admit the boo-boo you made here & start sidetracking to something else. Shame !
I went to Asian-Pacific countries every year on business in electrical engineering projects procurement. So you did not know at all I am an electrical engineer involving in the electrical power industries in USA/Canada for decades, particular in UHV power transmission. Now you know !
Audio electronics is only my self-learned hobby. Thanks to my electrical backgound, I started design/building my amps decades back. I can tell you I know more & better than many many brandanme designers as I love classical music like addiction. I always use classical music performance as my guideline for my design/builds.
So many brandname designers out there know electronics so much more than they should know music by judging on their design/builds. Like a chef, how can the chef cook best food without being a gourmet itself !!!
Your ignorance is not a guilt as nobody knows everything. But your reluctance to admit thr boo-boo you make due to ignorance is inexcusable !
I hereby give you the opportunity to challenge my knowledge in audio electronics & classical music. I doubt you know how????
Listening is believing
Jack L
PS: Stick your head out your own-built nutshell: Read up my technical comment on Shunyata Denalis power conditioners on Dec 15 just below.
Tell me what you know about the technical issue of those 2 expensive brandname powerline conditioners, only if you really KNOW! If you don't know, read it to learn more. Bluffing can bring you nowhere !
Sorry, didn't bother to read what you typed, not interested. Just got this beautiful integrated amp for a third system and too busy enjoying it to read your dribble.
Go throw some water on your records, ruin them some more, (you should read what a real engineer like AJ van den Hul has to say about that) and leave us alone. I am in musical bliss tonight. Your ramblings bore me. Bye! Go bark at the moon.
Hi
Got complete shut out !!!! Poor helpless old chap !
If van den Hul or whoever else "real engineer" is your "mate", invite him/them to have an open debate here on record playing with me.
Please don't even mention "record" playing with me, you are opening a huge can of worms musically & technically !!!
Rest in peace !
Listening to vinyl music is believing
Jack L
Just finished listening to it with my vinyl rigs. Simply sensational.
No, your knowledge in classical cannot compete with me, not even close. I got over 6000 CDs and over 3000 in vinyl all classical. Been listening to this for over 50 years. Don’t go there, you’re a chomp when it comes to that. Same with vinyl knowledge, if you think you can debate and know better than AJ van den Hul then once again you’re out of your league. If you think you know about vinyl and don’t know who van den Hul is then you’re a complete neophyte on top of being a complete idiot. You’ve embarrassed yourself enough.
This is why everyone makes fun of you on these pages. Pathological and probably a sociopath. Seek help.
Huh? Kiss me back? LOL! How childish! No, I have never met the man, but I have heard his cartridges and want one, but the fact you don’t know who he is shows how you claim to know everything but in fact, know nothing about analog and vinyl. Nothing!!!
Hi
I design/built all-TRIODE phono-preamp for my vinyl enjoyment since day one many years back using 50-yr young Telefunken tubes for the RIAA EQ phonostage....
Ask yourslf, your "mates" & whoever your vinyl superstar ever know anything about phono-preamp design/build technology ?????
You think every vinyl playing guys in this world is so helpless & naive like you blockhead!
Unless you are blindsighted, Check up my profile picture on top of my every single post in Stereophile, you should see the 3-triode phono-preamp I design/built for my own use, the smallest all-triode phono-preamp on this planet !!!!!
I hereby challenge any brandname phono-preamp makers in this world to come up something to match it musically & technically !!
Listening vinyl with triode phono-stage is believing
Jack L
Yeah, yeah, we know, you build your own triodes, you never fail to remind us, we already know that. That’s old news, but it seems you don’t know much else. In any event, I don’t like kicking a man when he’s down so I’ll refrain from launching anymore attacks at your lack of knowledge, but honestly, Jack, if that is your real name, a little humility and admitting you don’t know everything will go a long way into helping you make more friends with less ridicule directed at you.
“Learning is believing”
Hi
How the heck YOU know I "don't know much else" ? Imagination !
So challenge what YOU know that I don't know !!!!
How about minus 45C deep-freeze icy road driving ?? I do it nearly every winter up here !
FYI, besides classical music & vinyl audio electronics, I love cooking at home: I don't think I want to eat out at all.
I cook organic beef steaks (meadow raised cattle wth no hormones & antibiotic feeds from New Zealand) that no restaurants here can offfer, IMO. New York steak ? A joke !
I cook wild salman fillet burgers that no fast-food eateries can offer !!!! Home cooked food is the best healthy food, period.
YOU know cooking or icy road driving at all ??
Jack L
Hi
Helpless consumer like YOU got no choice but spent your hard-earned money to finance the "vinyl rig" vendors.
Do I give a rat's ass ???
Jack L
Hilarious! Well you must because you keep responding. I do, I have no shame in admitting, I love my turntables, they’re all spectacular. I would invite you over but since you live in a fly over state and are nowhere near me, I guess that’ll never happen.
Hi
Very glad you love your TT !
I love my 2 TTs too, one belt-driven made in Germany for my MM cartridge & one direct-driven TT made-in-Japan with SME S-shaped black carbon-fibre arm + MC/factory matched headamp both made in Japan.
I think I said it here before, one time one channel of the DD TT is gone. I found out one of the hairlike super-fine signal wire inside the SME arm broke !!!
As a die-hard audio handyman, I dismantled the whole SME arm & replaced the whole copper signal harness (which was no longer available from SME) with super-fine computer-grade silver-plated oxygen-free pure copper wires which I got a big reel of same in my parts box.
Thank goodness, I fixed it within only a couple of hours !
Yes, I love my vinyl players !
Jack L
PS: you live in London ? I may come over to visit my younger brother-in-law later if not sooner. I may visit you !
Son you got a lot learning to do, you is in no position to school anyone on analog if you don’t know who this great man is. Go crack a book and learn. LOL!!!!
...of many, many other places you can be, David.
As you say, "none of them related to home audio".
I like reading about $50K phono amp on Stereohile although I cannot afford it currently. Which isn't much different from people watching NFL and commenting yet they cannot run 5 miles, let alone catch a fast flying football. Possibly, that's exactly why we watch or read about these stuffs. If I can afford a $50k phono every month, I won't be reading about it here. If you can play football like a pro, you won't be sitting on a couch with popcorns. High performance, luxury, exotic, and fantasy sell. 90% of anything we watch on Youtube mostly has nothing to do with our day-to-day lives.
Thanks but who cares?!
You can spend over $100M on a canvas with paint. Well, not "you", I suppose. (Not me either)... but my sound system is not cheap, and it sounds incredible.
Your comparisons of the Audioquest and the Shunyata products show an honest reporting that allows the reader to draw their own conclusions.
Grey areas abound and auditioning will direct the listener to their own decisions. That's what a great review is all about. Personally being able to afford them is immaterial in a review. Truthful observations are king.
Self-gratification only comes from the listening satisfied to the music you love.
Unfortunately the wrong Shunyata gear was compared. The Everest is the best one to compare against the Niagara. I don't think anyone can better Shunyata.
As I own 3 of their amazing products across their lines. I also own a ton of Audioquest cables. I dig them all. And I love each of their design philosophies.
(One thing I do not dig is both company taking their best active and passive grounding technology and placing it into the their higher-lines only. Whatever the valid reason, I am now an 'angry' consumer.)
I still think it's hard to find the 'best', as there are too many variables that one could put to test to either product (Everest vs. 7000).
Don't forget StromTank! I just heard a full AQ loom demo at AXPONA using the uber-Shtromtonk, while AQ's Garth Powell gave a great Dragon demo. Using a brand-less AC power cord on $200k system vs. the Dragon was ear-opening and Garth was very informative.
Hi
I would concern the sound I hear more than the test report I read.
This is music audio not any electronic hardwares !
Listening to music with own ears is believing
Jack L
Dave H
“ I can think of at least……..” wah wah wah
Why are you even here ?.?
to say important things that need to be said. There are worthy intellegent things for each of us to spend money on. 50K for phono preamplification is not one of them. I have certainly wasted my share of money on home audio so I am no better than anyone else. I only wish to suggest that perhaps some audiophiles would do well to reconsider their priorities when it comes to their disposable income. "you get what you pay for" may be true in some cases. It certainly is not in the case of high end audio.
Hi
Agreed ! Many consumers may not get what they intended to get with their hard-earned money - all at the mercy of those hi-end brandname makers/vendors. So why go for them ? Vanity or what ???
Just like cars, do we need a Mercedes to go to work ???
Jack L
On this site, is as nonsensical as it gets. I find it devoid of any intelligence or insight that I am not even going to comment.
BTW, the car analogy is tiresome and pointless.
"On this site, is as nonsensical as it gets. I find it devoid of any intelligence or insight that I am not even going to comment."
but you did
Hi
"Statement" or "comment" were given by YOU, nobody else here.
What a moot excuse !
Jack L
I realize the Queen’s English is not your forte, but nuance matters. Try and keep up.
Hi
WHO cares ! I am not living in a British colony !
Jack L
You do speak English don’t you? LOL! Or do you prefer American? LOL.
Hi
Please update yourself: It should be "King's English" after the passing of the Queen.
YES, we speak American in this part of the western world.
Jack L
Hi
Great minds think alike ? May not be in this case !
Nelson Pass' opinion of audio amplifiers: "I enjoy amplifiers with a little personality".
Jack L
Hi
Who cares about "YOUR opinion"? I don't give a rat's ass !
Yet the editor of Stereophile does care about my opinion. Check back before you open your BIG mouth !
Jack L
of >60dB (500kHz–10MHz)—"more than three times the normal noise isolation common to most power conditioners." qtd MF
Hi
Let's talk technical seriously. Save lip service !
For $3,500 to $4,995, the Shunyata Danalis kill EMI powerline noises from 20dB @1MHz & 60dB 500KHz-10MHz. How about EMI powerline noises emitted by switched-mode power supplies (SMPS) from digital audios & cellphones 1G-5G up to 6GHz++++ ?????
Are the Denalis widebanded enough to cover up to GHz zone ???????
Let us compare notes:
The 4 powerline EMI conditioning filters (made-in-England) I DIY-installed in the 4 dedicated powerlines for my audio rig at home for many years now cover EMI nosie bandwidth from 4KHz - 2GHz (way way beyond the published bandwidth chart) :
EMI noise insertion loss: 24dB @ 1MHz (read from the bandwidth chart)
43dB @ 10MHz
52dB @ 32MHz
36dB @ 100MHz
Way better than the Denalis performance !!!!!!!
So would you go for the powerline conditioners I used for the same price of the Denalis in case you were in the market for those ???
FYI, I paid much much much much LESS !!!
Knowledge is the power of cost saving for better performance & save being ripped off !
Jack L
your semi-grammatical pseudo-bullshit explanations. Do you build your own televisions too because you think you know more than Samsung? You and Harper are like Siamese twins joined at the ego. BTW, you're commenting on a 5 yr old column. Laughing at your poorly written nonsense is believing!
Yet, I find him absurdly amusing, as he’s all over the place and his responses make me laugh. He is Stereophile’s village idiot.
When you "read" audio reviews, you want/need both, as parallels between the reviewers "poetic license" and the "measurements" can in many times be drawn.
If you only have just the reviewers "poetic license" to trust you may as well just read Absolute Sounds and "trust" what the reviewer heard/waffled about, and hope there's no payola involved.
(if done right measurements don't lie)
Cheers George
Hi
Bench measurement only uses static signals : sinewsave/squarewaves to test, say an audio amp, which is used to process realtime music signals, not sinewave/squarewaves at all !
Whatever "done right" measurement only does "right" with such bench static test signals, but NOT ever-changing realtime dynamic music signals which our ears listen.
Please tell me how you could correlative the bench test data to what the realtime music signals your ears hear using the SAME applifier.
I have gone through this same thing here again, again & again!
How come a 5W SET amplifier measured 5% THD sounded sooo much better than a solidstate amp of measured 0.005% THD using same bench test procedure as per Daniel H Cheever's audio engineering master degree thesis !????
His finding was later verified a few years later by another party using a brandname SET by ABX blind test !!!
That's why I said I concern what my ears can hear more than what I read in the test report ! I never hinted bench measurements "lie", but we are talking apple vs orange.
Listening music with own ears is believing
Jack L
Some clearly don't understand or comprehend results of testing vs listening. All amps are designed using testing measurements and calculations, if not I suggest you stay well away from those (voodoo) amps with 5% distortion.
Just one example and there are many: Measuring "Damping Factor" (output impedance) of an amp can give you an indication of driver control, of very tight, or uncontrolled bass, or in between, depending on the speakers "bass impedance curve" which (guess what) is yet another measurement.
Cheers George
Hi
Yes, "an indication" only. Damping factor however high or low can never tell us how it would SOUND to our ears !
So tell me what "indication" of the sound of an amp with a damping factor of say, 2,000 vs one with 1,000 ???
Only by listening we know the different ! Right ?
Listening to music with own ears is believing
Jack L
PS: The 5% SET amp was no "voodoo" at all ! Otherwise Daniel Cheever would not put in in his audio engineering master degree thesiS !
I didn't say you did, I said reviewers "can" depending on kick backs.
I said bench tests don't lie!!
Hi
This is a very blunt accusation: "kick backs", my friend though I share the same skepticism of yours.
I would only put it a more lenient way: SOME reviewers may have own undisclosed agenda.
Jack L
I know it goes on as I know a couple of reviewers, even an editor where "kick backs/payola" or whatever you want to call it has happened.
And why I say "my friend" that measurements are just as important as a reviewers "poetic license", they are there, measured and on the graph and can't be bullshitted with.
And if you don't want/like measurements to be published, can I suggest you read Absolute Sounds instead of Stereophile.
Hi
Don't get me wrong. I never mentioned I "don't want/like" at all. In fact I am fully supportive of test reports along with sonic appraisals of the same audio components in any audio journals.
My point is, always is, NEVER judge the performance of any audio ONLY on its measuremnet as. again, bench measurements used static test signals instead of realtime music signal. We are given an apple instead of orange which we want !!!
The main issue is HOW can we coorelate the bench measurement data with what our ears hear from the same audio ?
Superb bench measurement data do not warrant superb sound at all, IMO, because such data, again, are not realtime music signals we listen eventaully with the audio under test !!!
Test reports can only serve as a reference, but can never replace our own subjective impression of the audio concerned.
Yes, any "kick backs/payola" given by the manufacturers/agents/vendors to the reviewer involved will surely tarnish the impartiality, integrity & validity of the reviews as well as the journal as a whole as the editorial management already permitted such biased reviews to be published !!! Irreversible damage to the reputation of the audio jounals involved.
The better way to safeguard our decision of purchase is to audition the audio personally in the vendor's showroom to ensure you like the sound of the product as reviewed in whatever audio journals.
Personally, I NEVER take any reviewer's sonic appraisals for granted as sonic is sooo subjective. One's meat can be another's poison !!! I love what I like to hear that is nobody else business. No reviewers can ever touch my own sonic judgement relative to live music performance I only used as my sonic holy grail.
I understand your concern about such "kick backs/payola" which can victimize many many readers which take the reviewers' appraisals as sonic holy grail !
Not for me, NEVER ever take any reviewers' sonic appraisals for granted ! Don't worry.
Listenig to music with own ears is believing
Jack L
Note that Mr Fremer acquired the phono pre and power supply at an "accommodation price," not the retail price. (He said so.)
I appreciate the reviewer disclosing that he was allowed to buy the expensive equipment at a discount (with his own money). Should the accommodation price be disclosed? In a perfect world, yes. Imagine a price of $10K for a $50K product. That could sway an opinion. Or at least sway a reader's opinion of a reviewer's opinion. OTOH a discount of 10% wouldn't engender such skepticism.
Hi
If not "exactly a kickback", please tell us what "exactly" it is ?????
So tell us WHY the reviewer can enjoy a special "accommodation" price from the audio maker/agent/vendor & we consumers cannot get such 'favour' ?
Simply because there is no such thing as 'free lunch'. Favour for a favour !
The timing for solicitating such pricing favour' is crucial !!
If the reviewer concerned request an "accommodation" price from the vendor AFTER the review published, it is a legistimate ! Whatever special price offfered to the reviewer is still legal.
BUT if the reviewer requests whatever "accommodation price" from the makers/vendors in return of a favourable appraisal in the review BEFORE
such review is written, it will constiute as "bribery".
The issue is who can tell which is which ???? So often money overrides morality. This is a real world. That tells us why georghifi is sooo concerned about such vendor/reviewer "kick back" monkey business !!!
Jack L
So tell us WHY the reviewer can enjoy a special "accommodation" price from the audio maker/agent/vendor & we consumers cannot get such 'favour' ?
The accommodation price paid by a reviewer is typically the product's wholesale price, as paid by a retailer. The manufacturer therefore still makes his appropriate margin on the sale. No "kickback" there.
John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
Thank you for the clarification. I agree that if it's the wholesale price, then it's not a kickback.
Hi
Thanks for yr info.
Out of curiosity, any idea the typical % discount of such "wholesale price" from retail price ?
Glotz cited 50% discount per his above post dd Dec 15. If he did not lie, this would be very very substantial discount ! Kinda sorta a giveaway, IMO.
Jack L
Your (Jack L) homophobic comments were (thankfully) deleted by JA2 in the thread on Mullins' "Re-Tales #27" story.
Here, I wonder if your OUTRAGEOUS accusation that former Stereophile writer Michael Fremer took a bribe from a vendor will likewise earn you a deletion.
You are by extension ACCUSING STEREOPHILE OF BEING CORRUPT. (For the record, I think that is beyond the pale.) Yet at the same time you are both Stereophile's most voracious and grammatically challenged commenter. A paradox indeed.
Tagline of the day: Listening to Jack L makes one wonder what to believe.
Now I think Jack is really Ralph Wiggum or Bob and Doug McKenzie's father. Reading his posts in either voice really brings out the clarity and logic.
(1) NO post of mine was ever deteted frm JM's "Re-Tales #27 !
(2) It was georgehifi first brought up the issue of "kickback".
I responded to his posts above without pointing fingers !
Wake up & smell the coffee ! Daydreamer !!
With 'friend" like you daydreamer, who needs enemy ??
Jack L
...pompous, Jack L.
Time for you to go.
For your homo-erotic fantasies, Jack.
Do you not live in the modern world, Jack? It is no longer acceptable to talk this way.
All of us, whether we are overtly aware of it or not, have within our extended families a member(s) of the LGBTQ community. This is a statistical fact.
Those people are human beings, and deserve to be treated with respect.
In addition to being semiliterate, you are a troglodyte.
Hi
Don't YOU daydreamer put yr accussation in my mouth !!!!
Show us which of my above posts ever mentioned "STEREOPHILE" !!!!
You need to go back to grammer school to learn your kidde-like English comprehension before you opening your BIG mouth here !
You can't read English correctly & you dare to use "tech" as your pseudo name ! What "tech" you think you ever know ???
Jack L
Hi
Either you are a dream walker or got the memory of a goldfish !
Read up again the post dd Dec 17 by windansea above:
"Mr. Fremer acquired the phono pre & power supply for an accommodation price".
Why you involved me in his post, IDIOT !!!!!
Jack L
You need to stop selling it to kids and get back on it.
Are you on cheap drug ???
The mass consumer can get pretty good stuff for cheap prices. But as you go up the line, it costs a lot more to squeeze out superior performance. It's NONLINEAR. Same with almost anything, really. If you want it totally perfect, or customized, or cutting edge, then it's cost-no-object and the cost is astronomically higher. So I'm not going to scoff at $50K for a phono pre.
(I would scoff at a $500K phono pre.)
To give people a sense of perspective, people pay $100,000 for Patek Phillipe watches made from stainless steel that just show the time in hours, minutes, and seconds as well as date. And, it is less accurate than the cell phone that nearly everyone carries. I'm glad that these sort of products are available for people who can afford them.
Are all full of the same natering nabobs ranting about cost. I do love a good mechanical watch, though.
Hi
Life style is not gauged by nickel & dime, my friend !
Like my wife's Rolex watch, is a token of my love to her. Dollar & cents is not longer a factor any more. Most most women go for style !
Jack L
Even at an accommodation price, as a reviewer I'd never spend a dime on a piece of equipment that sounded worse or otherwise less interesting than what I already have.
Who would?
rschryer:"Even at an accommodation price, as a reviewer I'd never spend a dime on a piece of equipment that sounded worse or otherwise less interesting than what I already have.
Who would?"
Ones that flip to make money, and yes that goes on too.
To think otherwise is to be naive.
Cheers George
Even at an accommodation price, as a reviewer I'd never spend a dime on a piece of equipment that sounded worse or otherwise less interesting than what I already have. Who would?
Ones that flip to make money, and yes that goes on too. To think otherwise is to be naive.
Stereophile's long-term policy is that when reviewers purchase components that they have reviewed, if they subsequently need to sell those products, they must offer them first to the manufacturer.
We fired a writer for one of our sister magazines who was buying review samples and selling them on an on-line website for profit.
John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
Hi
Just out of curiosity, how did you discover that writer selling online to make profit ? That person should not be so naive as to sell it under its own name. Got to be sold by another party on the writer's behalf that would be pretty hard to trace !
Sounded like a Sherlock Holmes story !
Jack L
Just out of curiosity, how did you discover that writer selling online to make profit?
Manufacturers routinely keep an eye on resale sites like Audiogon.
John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
Hi
I see. Now I learn something about the resale markets. Thanks.
Jack L
Almost not worth them buying it even at trade/accommodation price, if they have to do that.
They will loose big time $$$ that way, as the manufacturer is not going to offer much, it has to be lower than the manufacturers cost and even lower specially now as it's second-hand also and most probably superseded.
Cheers George
Hi
Too true !
Jack L
Hi George
From J.A's very strict policy on Stereophile reviewers' reselling reviewed/demo products that I only just know from J.A, I think we have over-reacted to its rewiewers alleged profit flipping.
Of course, this does not mean reviewers of other audio journals would or would not do such monkey business at all.
I think I owe Stereophile an apology for jumping the gun to this profit flipping issue.
Jack L
Please don't speak for me, I know it goes on.
Cheers George
Please don't speak for me, I know it goes on.
But not at Stereophile.
John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
I went in yesterday a second time to correct a typo, and the comment then disappeared and I got a message that it was in moderation. Can JA1 or JA2 please go in and review it/push it live? thanks
Hi
NO, a 60+ years established audio journal could not possibly permit any monetary monkey business exist inside the establishment to stain its reputation.
Keep it up, John. God Bless !
Jack L
Hi
As I said in my above post, this is a grave allegation unless you have already obtained evidence of such monetary monkey business against Stereophile !
Have you ??
Jack L
Sounds like you want to be a "Patron Saint" of Stereophile
I never accused Stereophile of payola or kick backs, I used those words in a general context about many reviewers.
"I said reviewers can" but it was actually JA that said, "they did once".
Suffice to say it goes on, to think otherwise is being naive and "not seeing the forest for the trees"
Cheers George
Coupla points. People in mags/newspapers all sell their review copies to get a little pocket money to augment their meh salaries. Back in the day, we took them to the Strand.
I don't think reselling gear is an ethical problem. The thought experiment is, if the reviewer didn't get to buy the gear for cheaper, would he write a better review than if not? The answer is a global no. Most (all?) places don't run negative reviews. If something really sucks, it's not gonna get a long feature. More likely, it'll be a product blurb.
[Note that I am NOT commenting specifically on Stereophile. I am talking about the biz as a whole, from a 30,000 ft. perspective.]
I believe that the policing of resales has nothing to do with ethics. Rather, resale of low volume, high priced stereo gear uncuts the manufacturers' business model. Hence their willingness to spend employee time, which equates to money, keeping an eagle eye on Audiogon and ebay.
An analogous example from the software world is that AutoCAD in the old days used to vigorously police ebay. ANY TIME someone tried to sell a copy of AutoCAD, even if they had acquired it legitimately, they were shut down and the listing removed. This was solely to maintain AutoCAD's high price, which was way above industry average. (Dunno if they still do this today; guessing yes.)
All of which logically leads to a blindingly obvious conclusion: We, the readers and posters here, are not the customer. The vendors are. Readers are not chopped liver -- again, not spitting on Stereophile, which I wouldn't come to every day if it didn't provide value to me. I am talking about everywhere. And not just in the audio space -- rather, readers are leads, potential customers for the vendors which keep places like this alive, though since the internet unfortunately came to predominate, only barely.
Perhaps that's why, beg though I did (see my earlier post), I couldn't get my previous attempted post pushed live. (It went into moderation when I attempted to twice correct a typo. A problem Jack L will never face.)
Hi
Words are cheap !
Of many CORE VALUES of a person or organization: HONESTY always come upfront first - backrock of foundation of a person or a company.
"I don't think reselling gear is an ethical problem" provided it is carried out HONESTLY. For audio reviewing, no monkey business, like undercutting the purchase price in exchange of favorable reviews nor profit flipping etc.
Stereophile, per John Atkinson, demonstrated its HONESTY core value by firing its writer who acted dishonestly.
Enough said
Jack L
Hi
Don't act like a smart ass, please.
No, you did not point the finger at Stereophile specifically. But whoever with sharp eyes read the above yours & my posts know what's yr hidden agenda.
Please don't insult our readers' intelligence, including John Atkinson & yours truly.
Jack L
Whoa! Merry Xmas to you too sunshine. I Think your the one being that, as others have also alluded to.
Once again.
Sounds like you want to be a "Patron Saint" of Stereophile
I never accused Stereophile of payola or kick backs, I used those words in a general context about many reviewers.
"I said reviewers can" but it was actually JA that said, "they did once". (not me)
Suffice to say it goes on, to think otherwise is being naive and "not seeing the forest for the trees"
Cheers George
Sometimes I wonder who Jack L really is and where he's coming from.
Seems like one has to work really hard to write comments that are so oddly ungrammatical and antisocial.
Sorta like when a ransom note writer disguises their true identity
Sometimes I wonder if the voice is actually coming from inside the building.
Hi
If YOU can come close to the number of technical posts I did in the past, including this very topic right here, you were a "ransom note ghost" not even qualified to be a human "writer" !
I hereby challenge YOU to raise TECHNICAL issue in audio that I may not able to answer !!!! "Tech" "ghost" !
Jack L
Yeah! ya got that right.
Cheers George
I read your views on the Shunyata conditioners with interest. But it's bizarre that you didn't review the Everest or the latest Denali - the 6000/S v2.
Why compare the Niagara 7000 with the non-latest non-flagship competing products??
You may have won a free psychological disorder!
If you have been emotionally scarred in any way shape or form,
Please email me and I will send a 'stress reliever' to you...
Free of charge!
Full body massages are extra. (Way extra... )
Lol..
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