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michael green
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being fair

here ya go may & geoffy, knock yourselves out

"ADVANCED CONCEPTS like using colors to improve the sound, advanced concepts like Schumann Frequency Generators, tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, constrained layer damping, six degree of freedom isolation, mumetal tents for big transformers, holographic foils, quantum dots for audio applications, battery powered alarm clocks for improving sound and picture quality, you know, things of that nature."

I personally don't see anyone here treating you guys with anything but fairness, but as I did before giving you your own thread to explain, here you are again. A wide open page to share with us your advanced technologies.

here, I'll kick it off for you

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schumann2/revisited.html

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May Belt
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Advanced concepts”

>>> “ADVANCED CONCEPTS like using colors to improve the sound, advanced concepts like Schumann Frequency Generators, tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, constrained layer damping, six degree of freedom isolation, mumetal tents for big transformers, holographic foils, quantum dots for audio applications, battery powered alarm clocks for improving sound and picture quality, you know, things of that nature." <<<

Michael, you are so quick to introduce mockery that you again miss the basic point.

The things you list CHANGE the sound – when so many of them SHOULD NOT (from a conventional audio, acoustic or electronic point of view) change the sound !!! THAT is the whole crucial thing about that list !!!

Go from that end of the spectrum (that such things CAN change the sound) to the other end of the spectrum where certain prominent members of the AES firmly believe that ANY changes in the sound which people can hear are PURELY from having their head in a slightly different position when they sit down again after they have moved to ‘do some tweak or other’ or ‘change the disc’ !!!!!!!!!!

That the things you list CAN change the sound deserves far more than mockery. By the way, Michael, you missed including “different chemicals can improve the sound” in your list !!

What the things on the list you gave show is that there is a wealth of information, on ALL recordings, which is already there, waiting, to be released.

To be released BEFORE doing any ‘tuning’ of equipment and listening environment and also released AFTER by further ‘tuning’ of equipment and the listening environment.

That list you gave actually confirms what you keep saying – that there is SO MUCH more information, on recordings, than people realise or appreciate.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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the door is open

May

The door is simply open for you and geoff to talk about the things you mention in other threads so often. May, do you honestly think I have missed any point? If so I will bring in the products again and use them in a system and give a blow by blow account.

here's the problem

I'm the guy who has introduced variable tuning to this part of the industry, and I say there is no

"The things you list CHANGE the sound – when so many of them SHOULD NOT (from a conventional audio, acoustic or electronic point of view) change the sound !!! THAT is the whole crucial thing about that list !!!"

There is no mystery May. Maybe some conventional audiophiles are out there and stuck in their thinking, but for the rest of us we understand that everything affects everything else, and it's a great point of view. Where some of the comments you and geoff make lacks (for me) is for someone like me it's old news and you & geoff keep trying to introduce it to me over and over as new news, as if I haven't been there. It's seriously a broken record May.

May the list was a "quote" from geoff, it didn't come from me. I have no desire to make a mockery of anything but how stupid it looks to have people come up on threads and tell the same story over and over and in the same breath not be smart enough to admit this is a part of tuning, and that any or every change made is some type of fixed tune if it is a fixed setting, and a variable tune if there are variable adjustments.

We have moved so far past this that I think interupting threads that have indeed moved past this or have a different subject matter for the topic should be treated as such.

You know May, for a long long time people have been introducing tweaks and tweak products and maybe some people have not figured out how they work and the designer made things look like a mystery as a sales tool, but we aren't in those days anymore. As you say maybe a few audiophiles are still living in the dark, but that doesn't mean that there aren't those who have moved way beyond that point.

Many of us who have moved to variable tuning have out grown the fixed tweak age. Not that we are down on them, but we feel they need there own space separate for the variable one.

here's why May

The "Schumann Frequency Generators" we used in a more revealing setting such as a tunable room hurt the sound and didn't help it. It introduced an imbalance in the harmonics structures. In our testing the sound stages that were 30+ feet big side to side and front to back collapsed, putting focus on a few instruments but making the stage fall apart around them.

This same thing happened when using commercial units in the listening or around the listen room. Now if someone wants to use them to collapse the stage from huge to focus on a smaller part we have no beef with that, it's a choice just like anything else, but for our use it does the oposite from our objectives.

here's what I suggest

On this thread let's talk about the products you and geoff wish to mention only lets do it in a productive way, but lets also let the other threads stay on topic without your friend putting up animal pictures and doing spins. I'm all for a straight up talk between the 3 of us and anyone else who wants to join in.

May, when I came here there was no mockery from this end, the mockery comes from trying to get on the same level of those whom I'm or any of us are talking too, which in your case is someone who wants to school and in geoff's someone who likes stiring the pot no matter how it makes him look.

If you guys want to have real meaningful talks though lets do it.

Could I also make one more observation and or suggestion. When we read both of your posts it looks like you are trying to engage in some type of battle or opposition as if you have had to fight this fight all your lives and it's the only way you know now. If either of you could drop that guard a little you will find more people will want to engage with you on a different level.

May, your not as guilty as geoff on this one but still, if you could make the attempt you might find that there are people who are wishing to find the common bonds.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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Things we agree on

May & geoff

Why don't we start with things we agree on.

I think the first thing would be, there is a lot more on recordings than what most listeners think there is.

Do we all agree on that?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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hmmm still nothin?

Ok, I'll help you guys out a little more. This time from geoff's neck of the woods, but oh no they disagree with some of his findings.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19860020340.pdf

But hey he's from NASA so I'm sure he can explain some of this.

So guys how do those resonators work again in different environments? I mean since we're dummies here. Or am I the guys at KU and NASA being arrogant, or geoff's new one irrelevant?

michael green
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NASA on CLD

Hi Geoff, oops seems like your home base has a little different outlook on constrained layer damping than you.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20080047738.pdf

michael green
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when you get around to it

I know you guys must be busy with your science and all, but when you get a chance could you help me with this?

I went through about 100 of my CD's just now and not one of them has the same markings on the label side of the discs. Seeing that different colors and treatments and laser light intensities affect the sound, could you tell us how are we to tell which and how much of an application to use? In my testing it made a huge difference in not only the amount of treatments but almost impossible to get the colors right per CD.

Also if you don't mind, what do I do when I change CD players cause the sound changed as I started using a different player.

I see you guys promote a lot of these products on here so maybe you can break them down more in specific ways and even do some real time demos for us to do.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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We've seen this movie before

I've seen this movie before. That's some attitude you're sporting there, Sport.

Afterthought: I just started a new thread on Tweaks on the dodgy subject of Coloring CDs.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
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“Things we agree on”

>>> “Why don't we start with things we agree on.

I think the first thing would be, there is a lot more on recordings than what most listeners think there is.

Do we all agree on that?” <<<

Yes. Speaking for myself, I absolutely agree on that !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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“ Productive Way forward”

>>> “The “Schumann Resonance Generators" we used in a more revealing setting such as a tunable room hurt the sound and didn't help it. It introduced an imbalance in the harmonics structures. In our testing the sound stages that were 30+ feet big side to side and front to back collapsed, putting focus on a few instruments but making the stage fall apart around them.

This same thing happened when using commercial units in the listening or around the listen room. Now if someone wants to use them to collapse the stage from huge to focus on a smaller part we have no beef with that, it's a choice just like anything else, but for our use it does the oposite from our objectives.” <<<

You still seem to be missing the point, Michael. If you found that for you the Schumann Resonance Generators” “hurt the sound”, you STILL have to explain HOW the Schumann Resonance Generator could possibly affect (hurt) the SOUND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If something should NOT change the sound at all, which, according to conventional audio acoustic or electronic theories the Schumann resonance device should not affect the “sound”, then one has to explain WHY and HOW it DID affect the sound – irrespective of whether people heard the sound to be better or heard it to be worse !!!!!!!!! Either effect – on the sound - has to be explained !!

>>> “You know May, for a long long time people have been introducing tweaks and tweak products and maybe some people have not figured out how they work and the designer made things look like a mystery as a sales tool, but we aren't in those days anymore. As you say maybe a few audiophiles are still living in the dark, but that doesn't mean that there aren't those who have moved way beyond that point.” <<<

But many ARE still in those days, Michael. Many people have not ‘figured it out’ how some things work – whilst knowing that they DO work, that they DO change the sound.

I see your outlook as “having all the answers” in complete contrast when other – equally knowledgeable people – are acknowledging that they do not have all the answers !! Are you really claiming that you ALREADY have all the answers with your response of “but we aren’t in those days anymore” ? MUCH has still to be “figured out” !!

Quote from PFO July/August 2012 issue (How recent do you want it, Michael when you say “ but we aren't in those days anymore ?”).

>>> “Which leads to… has Science explained everything? And is everything explainable by Science? I would say no, perhaps not… or at very least not yet. Science is an evolving discipline of knowledge… new discoveries… new ways of looking at or defining what we know and experience around us..*****************” <<<

And a quote from John Atkinson during the open Stereophile debate at the Montreal 2009 Hi Fi Show.

>>> “There are things that boggle my mind in High End audio. There are things that I would like to think I understand (from a technical and engineering point of view) and then something happens which literally blows my mind and it doesn’t fit the world view. “ <<<

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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Surprised

>>> “I know you guys must be busy with your science and all, but when you get a chance could you help me with this?

I went through about 100 of my CD's just now and not one of them has the same markings on the label side of the discs. Seeing that different colors and treatments and laser light intensities affect the sound, could you tell us how are we to tell which and how much of an application to use? In my testing it made a huge difference in not only the amount of treatments but almost impossible to get the colors right per CD.

Also if you don't mind, what do I do when I change CD players cause the sound changed as I started using a different player.” <<<

This IS getting interesting, now, Michael.

In earlier responses you have told me that “We have done the questions and got the answers” after I suggested that you, surely, like so many people in the world of audio, must have many questions, sitting on a shelf, awaiting answers. NOW you are asking the very questions I suggested you must have on a shelf but to which you had earlier insisted “We have done the questions and got the answers”.

You have also said in an earlier response that :-

>>> “I haven't found a problem with CD's themselves, but CD Players and systems.” <<<

So, we now have to start at that point – that “you haven’t found a problem with CDs themselves”.

I can’t explain why YOU have not found a problem with CDs themselves when so many others have !!

As I have said before, this is so out of kilter with so many other (equally experienced) audio people.

Taking the discussion completely away from anything produced by either Peter and I OR by Geoff Kait – i.e. well away from any underlining personal antagonism towards us – I quote again from others’ experiences with the problem of CDs in general !!!

Extract from Greg Weaver’s review of the UltraBit Platinum-Plus in January 2011 issue of Positive Feedback Online :-

>>> “Revisiting the notes from my listening and viewing sessions with UltraBit Platinum-Plus™ finds me using the same adjectives and superlatives repeatedly. Let's visit the sonic results first. Keep in mind, while I'm mostly describing the results using music discs on my universal player, I experienced the same results with the soundtracks of my video discs, both DVD and Blu-ray!

Most immediately apparent was a slightly darkened (more quiet) background fabric from which every sound seems to blossom more fully.

It was just as immediately apparent that there was a reduction of stridency to upper midrange and lower treble bands, a minimization of the "glare" that can be so typical to many Redbook CDs. This is clearly discernable with bronze instruments like cymbals, which, post treatment, were at once rendered with a more "creamy" voice, and had more focus.

Something I've long held is utterly crucial to the creation of the illusion of live music when recreated by an electro-mechanical system, given its ability to affect our mental capability to be more or less easily "fooled," microdynamic resolve, is enhanced and better served with the introduction of UltraBit Platinum-Plus™. Noises previously buried down in, or slightly masked by, the noise floor are released much more coherently and identifiably. This is an attribute no doubt further aided by the darker, blacker background presented by this treatment as well.

One of the more delicious aspects of its effectiveness is the resultant elevated bass performance. While the lowest registers are not any deeper, they are clearly more defined. Picking or fingering of strings in bass runs becomes much more apparent and discernable, allowing a greater ease in following complex bass lines. It also contributes seemingly faster rise times, with clearer decay and fall off than without its application.

And talk about enhanced spatial performance! Post treatment reveals more "space" between instruments, and greater "air" around them. We are treated to a more focused soundstage, with greater specificity to images. Staging is typically slightly wider, deeper, and taller, with heightened "illumination" of the rear left and right corners of the soundstage. The result is an overall perspective that is more honest, more faithful to reality, with better focus and more realistically sized.” <<<

And, again, from someone else who is well regarded in the world of audio :-

To quote Clark Johnsen :-

>>> “the mat; the edge-paint; the truing; the edge carving; the Intelligent Chip; the duplicating onto CD-R; and God knows what else because everything so far seems to work.

Why?

Who knows, none of these make particular sense given the orthodox "bits is bits" wisdom. Which is why one takes such delight in expounding upon them, to watch the stuffed shirts puff up and the apoplexy set in. Few things in this world beat listening to good music, but watching those smug stiffs bluster and browbeat you certainly numbers among them.

Why?

Always with that question.

Here we be, in the scientifically advanced world of 2006 is it? And still having to smear our CDs with some substance or do something, anything to make them sound better.

And just as with the LP, something about the CD requires devoted attention. A CD treated by a number of methods becomes far easier to enjoy: lower distortion, wider dynamic range and nuance, less lumpy bass, less edge, less artifice, larger stage, more accurate timing—in short, better sound and more music. A wonderful thing.
An untreated CD can hardly (to my ears) be tolerated, nor am I alone in thinking that.” <<<

These are other people’s experiences, listening to CDs, through audio equipment which presumably has NOT had specific ‘tuning’ treatments, and in rooms which presumably have NOT had specific ‘tuning’ treatments.

Which surely, and logically, means that the very CDs have a PROBLEM – long before one gets to ‘treating’ any equipment or listening environment.

That does not however, alter the fact that YES, FURTHER changes in the sound can be achieved by ‘treating’ the actual audio equipment and ‘treating’ the listening environment but if improvements in the sound of the basic CDs can be achieved BEFORE such equipment and environment treatments AND achieved with such unusual things as chemicals, colours, demagnetising etc, then that means that there ARE basic problems with the very CDs themselves !!!

Again, logically, if such improvements in the sound as described can take place after ‘treating’ CDs, then that means that there IS a wealth of information, already on the CD, but which had not been heard/resolved correctly UNTIL certain treatments had been carried out on (or to) them !! Which again challenges explanations normally put forward that they must have been ‘poorly recorded’.

For example. Reading Greg Weaver’s descriptions of the improvements he heard, particularly his :-

>>> “And talk about enhanced spatial performance! Post treatment reveals more "space" between instruments, and greater "air" around them. We are treated to a more focused soundstage, with greater specificity to images. Staging is typically slightly wider, deeper, and taller, with heightened "illumination" of the rear left and right corners of the soundstage. The result is an overall perspective that is more honest, more faithful to reality, with better focus and more realistically sized.” <<<
Point to the CDs he ‘treated’ were not necessarily bad RECORDINGS prior to him doing the chemical ‘treatment’ (bad recordings is where most people generally lay the blame for the CDs not sounding good) !!

Now, Michael, I know that you have previously stated that you have heard such ‘treatments’ as applying chemicals, applying colours, applying a demagnetiser to CDs change the sound of CDs but that you have not been suitably enamoured with the results, but reading such descriptions by Greg Weaver and others, their descriptions point to them hearing serious IMPROVEMENTS in the sound after ‘treating’ the CDs.

I have also mentioned to you before that as soon as you had heard ANY changes in the sound of the CDs by carrying out such treatments as I have described, you should have been ‘knocked back on your heels’. But not ‘knocked back on your heels’ by what you heard but because, in conventional audio terms, NO CHANGES SHOULD HAVE occurred in the sound of the CDs from ‘treating’ them with a chemical, a colour or by demagnetising – using the “bits is bits” wisdom !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And all this long before one gets to the point of carrying out any ‘treatments’ to the actual audio equipment or in the listening environment.

Hence my surprise, therefore, at your statement “I haven't found a problem with CD's themselves”.

I do agree with you Michael that one should not always and automatically blame the actual recording. There are problems, of varying degrees, with CDs, with tape recordings, with vinyl records – OR it would not be possible to get improvements in their sound by applying a chemical, or a colour or a demagnetiser !!!!!!!!

And, this is BEFORE doing any of what you call ‘variable tuning’ !!!!

You said :-

>>> “For those who keep saying "it's not all about tuning"” <<<

I am one of those people who say it is not ALL about tuning without, Michael, you are wanting to have ALL and EVERY so called ‘tweak’ come under YOUR heading of “Tuning” ??

Variable tuning is only PART of the whole process of getting the best out of musical recordings. I repeat, only PART of – or are you actually expecting such as the use of crystals to also be part of your ‘variable’ tuning ?

I only challenge you when you claim that YOUR truth is THE truth, that YOUR answer is THE answer, and that YOUR method is THE method – which you have done quite regularly !!

I repeat. I agree that everything in the modern listening environment is a problem regarding gaining good sound and needs ‘attending to’ if one wishes to get the very best out of musical recordings. I only challenge you when you repeatedly claim that your ‘tuning’ is THE truth, that your answer is THE answer and you method is THE method.

There isn’t ONE truth, or ONE answer or ONE method. There are numerous things which can affect the sound of the music. As well as the conventional acoustics and vibrations there is RF, there is electromagnetism, and just plain magnetism, different polarities, different materials, different chemical mixtures, different colours, different shapes – even directionality in some cables - and so on.

A wealth of information is there, on the recording, or else one would not be able to START hearing/resolving that information by the use of such as the chemical involved in Greg Weaver’s review !! And that is even before touching the audio equipment or the listening environment !!

So, in answer to your question :-

>>> “I went through about 100 of my CD's just now and not one of them has the same markings on the label side of the discs. Seeing that different colors and treatments and laser light intensities affect the sound, could you tell us how are we to tell which and how much of an application to use? In my testing it made a huge difference in not only the amount of treatments but almost impossible to get the colors right per CD.

Also if you don't mind, what do I do when I change CD players cause the sound changed as I started using a different player.” <<<

You can ‘treat’ the label side of the CDs with the general chemical referred to by Greg Weaver, deal with the majority of the problem of the different colours with the ONE, single, specific chemical treatment, so that that CD’s treatment will go with it into any CD player.

Because the sound might then be different when played in another CD player, then THAT problem of the different CD player will have to be investigated further !! Which might then bring you, Michael, back to your ‘transformer’ (etc) problem. !!!!

The trail never ends – as you well know !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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did

Hi May

Did you give any answers here?

I see you mentioned others. I'm not talking to them so I can't say anything on their behalf.

Also are you asking if I have done studies on the subjects you mentioned? If so, yes I have. Was it difficult for me to find answers, nope.

But again this isn't my thread on what michael knows or doesn't know.

here's the OP

"I personally don't see anyone here treating you guys with anything but fairness, but as I did before giving you your own thread to explain, here you are again. A wide open page to share with us your advanced technologies."

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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doesn't fit

Hi geoff

you said "I've seen this movie before. That's some attitude you're sporting there, Sport."

Well, your from NASA right? You brag on it when you get a chance and use it to show I'm sure some level of credibility. I would if I was from there. But here's what I don't get. You don't sound like them in your belief system or approach to explaining your technologies.

I'm no NASA, but when I go up and read the copy-cat companies who have tried or even have cashed in on my efforts they try to sound almost word per word like me.

When I look at your posts I don't see a guy who studied off the same page as other NASA intellects.

When I hear the name NASA, and when I visited I did not meet up with people who I ever would have guess would post goofy animal pics when they hit a dead end or throw around cute quotes and songs. Sorry these guys weren't stuffy at all but had the answers at a moments notice, or went into lets test it mode, and we rarely see you give answers. I also see them using methods a ton and very specific in those methods both how to and why and results both good and bad, and again I haven't seen you do this.

I think if you acted a little more like where you came from it would be easier to talk about things. If not than I can understand why people would doubt you came from there.

What I'm saying is maybe some of us wouldn't be playing the same movie if you fit to the story you give.

Costin tells me he has a PHD, I buy it. You say your from NASA, do they send goofy animal pictures back and forth or do they do R&D?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Wow. Double wow.

Wow, you really let the accusations fly when you're angry. I suspect you might have a full blown case of the Machina Dynamica dis-ease. Also known as a case of the ass. I was not in R&D at NASA, I was in real time satellite operations and tracking radar data analysis. The last time I was at NASA was when you were still wearing bell bottoms.

 photo photo_2_zpslsecis35.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Thanks Geoff

Oh sorry geoff.

So when you are making comments to others like Costin on your NASA experience it really has nothing to do with audio at all.

To be clear you said

"I was not in R&D at NASA"

This would explain why they have a different view than you do on your topics.

geoff also said

"The last time I was at NASA was when you were still wearing bell bottoms."

This being the case even I have more experience with their R&D department than you. Interesting.

Why would you use them as a reference if you had nothing to do with their developement department?

Also, can I have your age geoff? I'm 55. If you were there last when I was wearing bell bottoms that would mean you did your work with them in the 70's.

Here's why I say this, you make comments that suggest that I am out of touch with what is going on yet, you say "The last time I was at NASA was when you were still wearing bell bottoms". Since my dealings with their R&D department was done in the late 90's and again in 2004, wouldn't that make me more up to date with them than you? Also since you did no R&D with them and I worked with them and some of the universities that do reseach for them in the vibration control, mechanical transfer, coupling and decoupling and atmospheric reaction (including electromagnetizm) departments, wouldn't that make me a little more up to date than you, dealing with these issues directly with NASA?

I see you were able to post another animal picture. I have a grand niece that is getting pretty good at that. She does well in all of her 1st grade classes.

Now let me get this last part straight, so I'm suppose to be jealous, because you reference your music with a Sony Walkman, I have more experience with NASA's R&D than you, and you out do me in cute animal picture posting.

Yep, makes me so mad I can hardly bear it. BTW got some new pics from my niece, they're cuter than your last one but she might like some of your others.

One last thing, so you and May are peers?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out

What dating an underwear model has to do with audio? Or, having a lived in a Manhattan apartment? Maybe that's why you and Geoff are so attracted to arguing with each other? You have a lot in common, except Geoff has a sense of humor about him.

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Misstatements, misdirection, etc.

I can't imagine why you're carrying on so strenuously. I never said I was in R&D at NASA. I have almost always been in high tech, mathematics and advanced communications systems. I don't know why you are so hung up on credentials, anyway. As I already stated in some detail credentials aren't all they're cracked up to be when it comes down to arguing about SOUND.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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context

Hi Catch, every thing and one needs context

Oh so now your the personal police. Seems to me your the fella who said these threads are about freedom of expression. Maybe your not proud of your wife but I am certainly proud of mine. The Manhattan apt/showroom was a pretty cool reviewer hang out and served as a good research pad for both my products and the ultra systems. Both of these facts help to paint a picture of who I am.

All of us here (including you) create a context in which readers can paint pictures of who we are here on Stereophile.

As far as geoff and you and others, as a person is reading and they obviously are, the threads and posting styles give a view into the personalities behind the writers. Every comment you make paints a picture, kinda like a script. My script has very little to do with you or geoff, but you happen to make comments and so I respond. But I wouldn't concern yourself that I'm here to engage with you or geoff. I'm merely here to help get the future of high end audio kick started.

Trust me Catch, if you and Geoff and others who are here primarily to be distractions weren't here I would be flooding the pages with listening info and offer myself as a helper for each listener out there, but since you guys are here, I have had to be a little more creative yet do my best to promote a better hobby and industry. I hope you and geoff notice when you do say something that I feel helps the industry I'm not shy to agree and give it front and center.

I'll continue to do so cause my agenda is different from yours.

hope you have a great Christmas

Can I share something with you though. Those who have the heart of contempt can only see contempt in others. They're blinded by their own selfishness and hate to see progress. They can't help themselves from standing in the way of moving forward. They hold onto themselves as being right when wrong to the very end, refusing to explore and one of man's greatest gifts, to reason.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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all blends together geoff

geoff said

"I can't imagine why you're carrying on so strenuously. I never said I was in R&D at NASA. I have almost always been in high tech, mathematics and advanced communications systems. I don't know why you are so hung up on credentials, anyway. As I already stated in some detail credentials aren't all they're cracked up to be when it comes down to arguing about SOUND."

mg

The answer is pretty simple, because your here.

If you, May, Catch and some others who like to come up and cause distractions, dissensions and spins weren't here or stayed in your own corner you wouldn't be called out. Maybe in some circles you and folks like you can talk your way to the top of the mountain by the means you and May do, but that doesn't hold up when your dealing with the real article. If you guys didn't or don't want to be called out on your lack of experience, schooling and results, don't stand in front of those who can do the calling.

You and may and Catch have all 3 been invited to engage in referencing and reason, but you decline. Not only do you decline but you do everything in your power not to let others express themselves. Every thing is a spin. And I would guess that these spins have been going on for a very long time and have become the fiber of your 71 years here and May's 85 or so, and I don't know how many for Catch.

Why do I call you out? Because there are the 3% and the 97%. Many who haven't made it into the 3% spend their time trying to school the 3%. The 3% know how to learn and how important it is to learn. The 97% hasn't even a clue what inventing is even about. They learn a couple of things and spend the rest of their time in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16hxCB1Dvd4 .

So while you and May and folks like Catch make fun of or keep trying to teach something that the 3% has moved past already, those of us who have learned to move forward can only look back and hope you will find the new cheese too.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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The 3%?? Are you referring to a cocaine solution or a motorcycl

This is beginning to look a lot like the Branch Dividians fight against the siege of those that would try to dictate to them or bring them down. This happens frequently in high end audio, where someone or a group gets carried away with their own ideas, as good as those ideas might be, and develops the very strong belief that their ideas are the ONLY valid idea and that every else is wrong. Kind of the Backfire Effect and Audio Nervosa in full bloom. I suspect in hindsight it might have been more beneficial for your endeavors in the long run if you had listened to those dealers back in Dayton who cautioned you that audiophiles just don't want speakers they have to get up and tune for every freaking recording. Your arguments are SO reminiscent of Ethan Winers here on this very forum several years ago who was also fond of belittle and dismissing everything single thing that appeared to be a competitor to his room treatments and describing his own products are the only truly scientific product, the rest being frauds and pseudo science. You're JUST like him!

Because it's what I choose to believe. Dr. Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus

Geoff Kait
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The 3%? R U referring to a cocaine solution or motorcycle gang?

This is beginning to look a lot like the Branch Dividians fight against the siege of those that would try to dictate to them or bring them down. This happens frequently in high end audio, where someone or a group gets carried away with their own ideas, as good as those ideas might be, and develops the very strong belief that their ideas are the ONLY valid idea and that every everyone else is just plain wrong. Kind of the Backfire Effect and Audio Nervosa together in full bloom. ;-) I suspect in hindsight it might have been more beneficial for your endeavors in the long run if you had listened to those dealers back in Dayton who cautioned you that audiophiles just don't want speakers they have to get up and tune for every freaking recording. Your arguments are SO reminiscent of Ethan Winer's here on this very forum several years ago who was also fond of belittling and dismissing everything single thing that appeared to be a competitor to his room treatments and describing his own products are the only truly scientific product, the rest being frauds and pseudo science. You're JUST like him!

"Because it's what I choose to believe." - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus

Geoff Kait
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the credit due

Hi Geoff

Didn't know tuning was my idea. Thanks, but I can't take the credit for tuning, shaping and developing of musical structures. I'm a student and designer of the technology, but the science was done way before these ears ever hit the planet. Obsessed with the art, yep that would be me, but with great respect for the art and science of the recording and playback field.

Mr. Winer's a dampener right? That would not make him a competitor of mine, I tune the notes by electrical, mechanical and acoustical means. Sadly :( I don't have a lot of competitors yet, but I'm sure it will be a wild ride knowing the egos in this end of the industry lol. We'll see, and it will be welcomed.

michael green
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Dampener?
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

Didn't know tuning was my idea. Thanks, but I can't take the credit for tuning, shaping and developing of musical structures. I'm a student and designer of the technology, but the science was done way before these ears ever hit the planet. Obsessed with the art, yep that would be me, but with great respect for the art and science of the recording and playback field.

Mr. Winer's a dampener right? That would not make him a competitor of mine, I tune the notes by electrical, mechanical and acoustical means. Sadly :( I don't have a lot of competitors yet, but I'm sure it will be a wild ride knowing the egos in this end of the industry lol. We'll see, and it will be welcomed.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

He's the dude with the Real Traps, so I suspect he competes with Room Tuning stuff like Corner Tunes, Echo Tunes, and whatever you call those long vertical panels that get tacked into wall corners.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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took a peek

Hi geoff

thanks for the promotion prompt

I took a peek at their site, and looked at some of the materials like Guilford FR 701 fabric. That's dampening material. Looks like they would be in more competition with ASC (I think they use Guilford too) and some of those guys on the acoustical stuff. I didn't see that they did any of the tuning or voicing that we do, but they might I don't know.

when you look at

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t57-roomtune-acoustical-treatment
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t243-roomtune-rtd2-roomtune-deluxe-ll
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t23-roomtune-tuneart
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t25-roomtune-squares
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t69-rt-select-acoustical-treatment
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t70-rt-pzc-acoustical-treatment
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t76-mga-sound-shutters-acoustical-defuse-aeroplanes
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t75-the-tunable-room
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t74-mga-specialty-products

you can see we cover a wider range of products than most. We don't look at it like it's our job to compete, but more be able to provide every sound out there faithfully. Once in a great while we'll have someone ask for a dead room but not often.

I guess you could call the other guys the competing men's clothing stores, and we're more the custom tailor. Keep in mind too that we do the entire chain start to finish http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f7-mga-roomtune-products this probably separates us from the pack as much as anything.

So I guess you could call someone/anyone competition if you use a wide enough brush but most folks call us because we R&D and design the whole recording to playback chain.

In this regard "dismissing everything single thing that appeared to be a competitor to his room treatments and describing his own products are the only truly scientific product", I would not see this type of thing being our goal, but the opposite. People come to us because we are not a Mr. Winer or Mr. Kait. We believe music comes in all flavors and make tools for listeners to explore all flavors and levels of listening. The people who get upset with us are the ones trying to be emperor. We on the flip side try to be all things to all people within the context of tools that allow the listener to go wherever he or see wants.

we let the other guys fight the "Fixed Wars", while we continue to point at the obvious conclusion

competition would be other designers that do the same, not one up fixed sound guys

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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You do the entire chain start to finish. Oh, really?

That's not the way I look at it, in view of the fact you do not address any of the following: wire and fuse directionality, scattered background laser light, mold release compound on the surface of CDs, the interference to the sound produced by Information Fields, I.e., the so called Morphic Fields, Earth's crust motion around 2-10 Hz, the magnetic fields produced by transformers that not only degrade the signal anywhere in their vicinity but in the transformer itself! Also, you apparently - correct me if I'm wrong - disregard RFI/EMI effects on the audio signal. Not to mention you don't seem to be on board the whole demagnetization thing - of CDs and cables and chassis and so forth or to be on board the ionization of shiny discs or cables train, either. So it might actually be more correct to say you do the entire chain start to finish as written in the Gospel according to Michael. All the other stuff you sweep under the carpet. At the same time I really wouldn't expect you to do things any differently, you know, what with you being a pro audio guy and everything. Wink, wink.

Geoff Kait
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TuneLand babycakes

I address each and every one of these on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and invite you to take a look for yourself, or even post on a thread asking about any part of the audio chain you wish to cover or think I haven't.

If you looked, you would even find members from this forum talking about the same issues as on here, but they don't want to be involved in your spins.

Again anyone who wants to see the same topics without the spins can visit http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ anytime you like.

michael green
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You're either on the bus or off the bus

When you say you talk about these issues on TuneLand I assume you mean the issues are dismissed or swept under the carpet. THAT would make sense. Otherwise, I suspect you are probably Ssttrreettcchhiinngg the truth a little bit, you know, just judging from what you have said on the various subjects, not to mention your uh attitude. I'm debating YOU HERE not some entities on some forlorn website somewhere in cyberspace. Since you have presented no evidence that wire directionality is not real I assume you have no evidence, just a lot of who shot John. I assume the same is true for those folks who discuss such things on your web site. If anyone on your web site would care to debate the pros and cons of wire directionality or any other thing I extend my personal invitation to come here and do so. This is the wire directionality thread, after all.

When you say you have discussions on your web site on the subject of mind matter interaction or information fields I'm sure you're pulling my leg. That would be a little too much on the point.

Geoff Kait
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Geoff, last week we had a 4.7 (Richter scale) earthquake

Can you provide some kind of neutralizer? I'll buy a baker's dozen just to make sure my cat does not go berserk again. Also, I think your device addressing the Earth crust motion could be used by my beloved wife to counteract the motion of cocoa glazing on holiday cakes. Make me a deal and I'll pay: what better means to avoid microwave overcooking than spraying the stuffed cabbage leafs with "dark matter"?

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LOL

Cracked me up Costin LOL

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TuneLand baby!

You silly oldman!

If anyone would like to see my writings on cable and wires your more then welcome to come take a look. We cover quite a bit on cable at http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

However the OP is about what Geoff knows about his products and topics.

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Sorry Michael, but this would be a topic about nothing
michael green wrote:

However the OP is about what Geoff knows about his products and topics.

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Are you getting paid to be Michael's Sockpuppet?

Cold shower time in Romania.

;-)

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Nope, I am paid by the ultre-secret LAMA organization

This stands for Listeners Against Morons in Audio.

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Odd man out

I never wanted to win Best Hair at Show or become an alcoholic so I guess I'm odd man out. ;-)

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back on topic

Here's the OP

here ya go may & geoffy, knock yourselves out

"ADVANCED CONCEPTS like using colors to improve the sound, advanced concepts like Schumann Frequency Generators, tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, constrained layer damping, six degree of freedom isolation, mumetal tents for big transformers, holographic foils, quantum dots for audio applications, battery powered alarm clocks for improving sound and picture quality, you know, things of that nature."

I personally don't see anyone here treating you guys with anything but fairness, but as I did before giving you your own thread to explain, here you are again. A wide open page to share with us your advanced technologies.

here, I'll kick it off for you

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schumann2/revisited.html
_____________________________

Geoff do feel this is you talking about your "Advanced Concepts"?

Readers of stereophile, take a look at both this thread and the Geoff & May thread. No talk about the "Advanced Concepts" that are mentioned. A man who claims to write testing programs for the most advanced US technologies has not put up one Advanced Concept procedure for any of his designs. Read for yourselves and at the same time let me point you to http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ where we cover everything being talked about, but to be more fair I'm willing to point to or start a thread on every individual concept on the list. I might be to lazy to go find some of the writtings so I have no problem re-booting them.

But here's what I want you guys to notice while this is done. I want you to take a look at some of these high end audio designers, and play this against people who really do live research on the topics. Hopefully this will help some of you see why we as people in the industry have our doubts about many High End Audio claims and the extent they go to before beingning to start pushing things as truth that are nothing more than changes. Not only that, but changes that can easily be done for a reviewer who is looking at things on the quick A/B type of fixed tests that may or may not hold up in real time listening.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Thanks but no thanks

Thanks for giving us our own thread so you can come over and pee on it with regularity. What a nice guy! Toon Town must be a little slow. Isn't it about time...you...expanded...your...horizons?

Some more advanced concepts for you: SteinMusic Harmonizer for giving air molecules a head start at moving so the acoustic wave propagates more efficiently. Golden Sound Ultra Tweeters that produce a signal above 1 MHz, you know, to make the acoustic wave move more efficiently through the air. WA quantum chips for eveything from cables to capacitors to transformers, you know, to make the energy flow more efficiently. Blue Meanies, little blue 3/4 dots for room walls to reduce the stress produced by feeling enclosed in enclosed spaces. The Red X Pen, for writing messages like 'x26'x and 'x = PRESENT TIME on things like CDs, books, electronics, windows, mirrors, etc. Dark Matter invisible light absorbing thin film technology. Intelligent Chip quantum dot technology, Teleportation Tweak, quantum teleportation technology. Copper Foils for windows, copper foils for wall outlets (Flying Saucers). I won't even mention the Photos in the Freezer tweak.

A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - old audiophile expression

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Why colors "might" make some sort of difference

I remember reading some sort of white paper on cabling years ago that discussed why color might have some sort of audible effect on signals and it was related to the base material used in the pigments containing some sort of reactive compound. I read it somewhat in passing and pretty much dismissed it as curious, but probably not having any sufficient signature compared to so many other things that make a greater difference and moved on to something else. All things being equal, given the choice, I'd choose white over more heavily pigmented material and call it a day.

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Ah, the old cable jacket puzzler
Catch22 wrote:

I remember reading some sort of white paper on cabling years ago that discussed why color might have some sort of audible effect on signals and it was related to the base material used in the pigments containing some sort of reactive compound. I read it somewhat in passing and pretty much dismissed it as curious, but probably not having any sufficient signature compared to so many other things that make a greater difference and moved on to something else. All things being equal, given the choice, I'd choose white over more heavily pigmented material and call it a day.

The argument has to do with the color of the cable jacket. The question is what color cable jacket sounds the best? in other words, take two otherwise identical cables and determine experimentally which color jacket sounds best. The way the argument usually goes is I say white is the best sounding color and someone else says black is the worst sounding because the pigment in black cables contains carbon or iron or something like that. Then I say no, it's not the pigment it's the color itself. Well, here's a test for you. Take a cable with a black jacket and listen to it so younger an idea what it sounds like. Then wrap the outside of the black jacket say 1/4 the length with WHITE electrical tape. Listen to the cable again. You should be able to hear the sound is better with the white tape around the jacket. Which leads to the following predicament: if the black cable is still wrapped around the entire length of the cable, then it's probably not the pigment in the black jacket that's causing the problem. Nor is it the "better" pigment in white jacket material that's producing better sound. It's the color itself, no?

Geoff Kait
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Hey, Geoffy! Hey, Geoffy!!

That's not a good "test", Geoffy! You have just compared an apple to an orange! Now re-stoke whatever neurons you have left, and get back to them apples!

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Welcome back, ChrisS

When did you get out of rehab?

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Take a college...

...level research methodologies course and let us know in a few months when you can compare apples to apples.

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In other words...

...you just failed Basic Testing.

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NASA did not...

...get their money's worth. They better go back and check any test results and data they got from Geoffy.

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good to see you

Hi Chris

Good to see you. That geoffy is something else isn't he.

I'm getting ready for the CES, can't wait! It's only 2 miles (maybe 3) from my house. Hope the holidays were great for you!

michael green
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Hi MIchael!

Happy Holidays to you too! What will you be doing at CES?

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CES

Hi Chris

The tuning gang starts arriving tomorrow, and we start some video production the next day. I'm planing on staying close to home base unless I'm needed. Coop and the Girls will be making rounds at the show, and I'll be doing private showings of the Viola Mini's, unless the video shoots take longer than we think.

Are you going to the CES?

michael green
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Wish...

...but will you do any day-by-day blogging on Tuneland?

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Tune Gals

All this talk about the Tune Gals and private video shoots has really got my attention, I'm telling ya. You guys rock!

Geoff Kait
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Real good, Chrissy
ChrisS wrote:

...get their money's worth. They better go back and check any test results and data they got from Geoffy.

When you come up with a good comeback please let us know. So far they suck. Are you like fifteen?

 photo photo_6_zpsks0dlkr7.jpg

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Go to school, Geoffy!

And let us know when you can sort apples from oranges...

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Good Comeback?

There's no better comeback than you failing Basic Testing!

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