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geoffkait
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Ooops!
iosiP wrote:

My oh my, geoffy-boy gets offended:
You have proven to be a facile liar and mean spirited debater, having been reduced to personal attacks unseen on these fora in a long time.

Now look who's talking, the old fart that responded to a serious attempt to get a clear answer (from someone else, BTW) with the following memorable scientific proofs:
You made yourself clear a long time ago. You're stupid and you're an asshole. We listen and we get it. Have you given any consideration to rehab? I think you should. Give my condolences to your besotted liver

But those are not personal attacks, just geoffy's prostate SOS call. Well now...

Ooops! My bad.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
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It IS about Being Fair !!

>>> “If it wasn’t a test that you did well it was probably things done with your stuff and was talked about.” <<<

Now, you are back to what you usually do when you have made a Foo Pah (to quote from the Mikado). You are back tracking – as in “Oh if it wasn’t a test that you did”. But you ACTUALLY said such :-

>>> “But one of the friends when hearing your's and geoff's name had a few things to say and wasn't very interested in having the day ruined. From what I could gather this guy was part of some listening tests you guys were involved in, in 2008 or something,” <<<

So, you deliberately wrote an untruth that this GUY was PART OF some listening tests Geoff and I were involved in. In other words, your tactic was to give the impression that you were quoting from ‘the horses mouth’ !! When Geoff and I have NEVER been part of any listening tests – NEVER, EVER, ZERO.

>>> “The guys who visited me were well rounded listeners and knew music. If you or geoff want to make that into some kind of lie” <<<

I was NOT making it out to be a lie that the guys visited you were listeners and knew music – so don’t twist my words around to get out of what you did and said. What you said before was a direct misrepresentation and also a deliberate posting on your behalf to make mischief. That was a deliberate posting with deliberate intent. And that intent was NOT (as you are constantly claiming) to promote “tuning” !!

As in :-

>>> “I'm here to promote tuning.” <<<

Your throwaway comments in that particular posting were NOT intended to “promote tuning”, so please don’t play the innocent !! They were intended for a completely different purpose !!

There was NOT ONE reference, in that particular posting, of “you’re here to promote tuning”. It was a deliberate posting for a different purpose than to ‘promoting tuning’.
Of course people have opinions on our products and techniques – always have had and always will. And of course we have posted on various forums. But I certainly KNOW what tests we have personally been involved with and not involved with !!!!!!!!!!

So, when I correct you, I correct you from facts !!!!!!

>>> “Look at how upset you are over a mention instead of happy to see listeners having a good time. This to me speaks volumes, and if you are going to be on the same forum as me and other advanced listeners maybe it would be wiser for the both of you to stay away from our threads.” <<<

I personally don’t get upset instead of being happy to see listeners having a good time. Your comment was not JUST a ‘mention’ as you want to call it, it was a deliberate misinformation, posted by you with deliberate intent and one where you did not check your ‘posting’ was correct before posting it.

>>> “and if you are going to be on the same forum as me and other advanced listeners maybe it would be wiser for the both of you to stay away from our threads.” <<<

You are taking part in a public forum and no one has proprietary rights over any particular ‘thread’ OR exclusivity granted over any particular ‘thread’ just because one might start it.

Your arrogance is eye watering, Michael !!!

>>> “not talkers saying "they don't get soundstaging" like yourself and May.” <<<

Again with your misrepresentation of what I say or think, Michael. I have never said I don’t get soundstaging. I say that your methods are not the ONLY methods, that your answers are not the ONLY answers. !!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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Let's be clear May

Let's be clear May, this has nothing to do with arrogance. This has to do with you and geoff going after people who you wish to paint pictures of way before you get to know them, and then don't like it when those people get fed up with your lack of looking into what someone is about or doing. You want to paint this as me or anyone else being arrogant have at it. It doesn't change our reseach one bit, nore does it change that we have looked into things you and geoff have mentioned and so much more.

May, what you and Peter did in the 80's and before from what I have read did indeed help to open up peoples thinking at a time when many changes in the audio business was taking place. This is cool and in the past month or so I've enjoyed reading more about this. I think it's cool for you to point to these things, which is why I have started two threads for you. But May look at both of these threads and how quickly both you and geoff have turned them into witch hunts. Don't jump, just go look. I don't know you or Peter or geoff, and look how fast you come out of the gate acting like you know more than me and others way before we even get to know each other. Maybe you and geoff don't see this, but I and the folks I have talked to certainly did.

Several times I have said "who are you trying to school" and I meant it. Why would someone like yourself be spending so much time schooling the schooled unless you truly do believe I'm not who I say I am, and to this of course I'm going to laugh at both you and geoff. Reason being, you have no Earthly idea who you indeed are talking with. You, every time I bring up anything technical say you and Peter have done this, yet you refuse to show us what you have done. Sorry May but all things audio are about show & tell, not just tell, and you can spend as many years as you want telling people, and without the showing it means next to nothing. That's why they have trade "shows" May. They are not called Trade Talks.

You can't call someone arrogant on one side May and refuse to look at what they have done on the other. Sorry but this doesn't hold up with any industry. The more you do this without "showing" and "doing" the more people wonder if you've got the smarts and the goods to begin with, and that May is why many scream "snake-oil". It has nothing to do with mg. If both you and geoff started off saying "let's do some listening sometime" as the others do, or I have something to show you that might be interesting to you incase you haven't already done this, that's a completely different story. But May, both you and geoff start right out of the gate assuming, instead of exploring, and being open to exploring in real time situations.

for example

You say "michael you don't have THE WAY", like your yelling at me. I answer you "tuning is the way, but I didn't create tuning", and you get bent all out of shape. Sorry May, this is not my problem. Not only do I believe tuning is the answer I practice it as the answer for all to see. You said "michael, you haven't looked deep enough" and I say "come work with us and then make that judgement for yourself". But that's not good enough for you and geoff, and this is where I start to call BS, and honestly May any good research facility would as well.

Any research facility, that I know of anyway, don't stay in "it's a mystery" for 40-60 some years. Their far past treating people like "here's a clue". May "here's a clue" is a salespitch not a shared discovery. Trust me if you discovered something 60 years ago and made it into something acceptable, it would be accepted and explainable by now. I can use my work for a good example of this. I have clients that have been actively tuning for 30 years who can sit down with a listener and tell them how to tune, as good or better than myself. I can point you to (not going to) a professor, who has been working within a 20 year old tunable studio who has experienced more about variable tuning than (I'm guessing here) 90 percent of the high end audio designers in the world.

Saying "all these things are mystery" or "it worked when it shouldn't have" are simply not acceptable at our level of research May. And you can call me arrogant till the cows come home and it doesn't change the facts.

All I can really say is if you or geoff would like to explore together I'm totally up for that and as with everything we do, would treat this as things being done with every possible potential. At the same time, if you and geoff can only come to a forum and talk, you'll have to settle for others having opinions that may not suit you.

As far as you thinking of me as arrogant, I like that a lot better than "haven't gone deep enough". As far as someone coming here making a comment about you, that's the world we live in, audiophiles have a great deal of opinions and personality. BTW I have gotten a call since and he did share more details when I asked.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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quote

I think the quote you got so upset with May was

>>> “but one of the friends when hearing your's and geoff's name had a few things to say and wasn't very interested in having the day ruined. From what I could gather this guy was part of some listening tests you guys were involved in, in 2008 or something, and it turned into a "joke". It sounded like something that was talked about on a forum with a bunch of guys talking about you and geoff and it turned into a big mess when people started to give their opinions of what they heard. His comment was "don't get involved with these two cause they will never stop talking about topics they know nothing about". So, I didn't push.” <<<

I'm sorry this upset you and I wasn't very clear. What I was explaining in the context of that post should be kept in that context and not made into some passionate battle cry.

When the guys were here they weren't interested in talking about May or geoff. They were here to listen and explore tuning.

To be more specific

"From what I could gather this guy was part of some listening tests you guys were involved in, in 2008 or something" was my wording and I apologize to both you and geoff that I was not more clear. Like I said this was more of a passing comment from the fella who visited and wasn't a sit down discussion. I should have said that a group of guys were exploring your products and tweaks and there was some discussion back and forth on a thread about it.

I'm sorry this offended you and I apologize to you and the gentleman that visited with me. I also respect his opinion of your products as he has shown me to be a good listener. I also want you and the readers to know, I'm not here for spins of any kind.

you also said this May

"So, you deliberately wrote an untruth that this GUY was PART OF some listening tests Geoff and I were involved in. In other words, your tactic was to give the impression that you were quoting from ‘the horses mouth’ !! When Geoff and I have NEVER been part of any listening tests – NEVER, EVER, ZERO."

I hope you can see where things can be misunderstood.

for example when you said

"When Geoff and I have NEVER been part of any listening tests – NEVER, EVER, ZERO."

If someone reads this, you are shouting you and geoff have NEVER been part of listening tests NEVER, EVER, ZERO.

Someone reading this could easily think you and geoff have never done listening tests. Would this be a true statement?

When reading both you and geoff it's hard to tell when you are speaking a truth or not to be honest with you.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Is it just me?

Or is anyone else totally creeped out by this obsessive stalking and bizarre double talk?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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Yes

Yes, and I think you should stop!

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

iosiP
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Shame on you folks! And I mean ALL of you...

I came to this forum to learn things, to exchange experience with people that have something to share and to improve the sound of my system. Instead of this I only get rants & raves plus a large dose of "bad karma". All in all it looks more like a bad case of kindergarten class gone amok than like a talk between seasoned professionals.
So as they say at the Grammy's: I wish to thank all of you for making this a mess and I wish to thank Stereophile for letting it happen!

Over & out,
Costin

michael green
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Costin

Hi Costin

How do you suggest something like this gets corrected? I assume your saying shame on me as well? If so I sincerly apologize.

I look at these threads and honestly can't believe I am on Stereophile. I also feel terrible and quite disturbed maybe even robbed and feel like I have been pulled into something that smells. And I agree, shame on all of us for being a part. At the same time, if we come up to share and some live to stir, there's not a lot that can be done if there is no site mods to keep things in order.

I want to be on this forum, and don't mind taking my share of the heat, mainly because I know I like having a good time and not bad, and when these forums take that as you say bad karma turn it makes me sick to my stomach being here.

If it weren't for the fact that there are people being helped, I'd be gone.

I hope you don't think ill of me, and if so I hope you understand I have no experience at all with internet wasteland type of stuff and feel that I have tried to take every angle possible shy of leaving to figure this out. Look at TuneLand and you find none of this, so I hope readers don't think this is me throwing darts for the sake of throwing darts.

that said my music is calling

be happy people it's music for crying out loud

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Two more insincere

Two more insincere knuckleheads I can't imagine. All I had to do was mention the phrase Creeped Out and Costin shows up right on que. Send in the violins, I'm getting all choked up.

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

May Belt
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Truth

>>> “From what I could gather this guy was part of some listening tests you guys were involved in, in 2008 or something" was my wording and I apologize to both you and geoff that I was not more clear. Like I said this was more of a passing comment from the fella who visited and wasn't a sit down discussion.” <<<

Unfortunately. Michael, it WAS presented as a fact !! And, if I had not challenged it, it would have progressed into history as FACT !!! However, I am pleased you have taken the opportunity to clarify it better. I appreciate that.

>>> “I should have said that a group of guys were exploring your products and tweaks and there was some discussion back and forth on a thread about it.” <<<

This happens a lot and has happened a lot in the past so that statement is absolutely correct !! In fact, it has been going on since the mid 1980s, so nothing new here !!!! So, of course there are discussions “back and forth on threads You SHOULD have made it clear, yes. However, Michael, don’t play the innocent with me. I am far too wise !!! The world and his uncle know WHY you made that particular posting and the intent was not “to promote your tuning” !!!!

>>> "When Geoff and I have NEVER been part of any listening tests – NEVER, EVER, ZERO."

If someone reads this, you are shouting you and geoff have NEVER been part of listening tests NEVER, EVER, ZERO.
Someone reading this could easily think you and geoff have never done listening tests. Would this be a true statement?” <<<

I can’t speak for Geoff because I have never met him, so the original suggestion that WE both, together, had been taking part in some listening trials which this GUY (you quoted from) was involved in was not a true statement. Again I can’t speak for what Geoff might have done but Peter and I have been involved in listening tests in the past, in the UK. So, the TRUE statement, spoken from “the horse’s mouth” i.e ME, is that Geoff and I, together, have never done listening tests, so Michael, the truth is that the GUY you referred to could never have been involved in listening tests with Geoff and me.

If you want to know the truth about me, then just ask me.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

May Belt
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Fast out of the gate

>>> “I don’t know you or Peter or geoff, and look how fast you come out of the gate acting like you know more than me and others way before we even get to know each other.” <<<

Michael, I don’t think you can describe me as “how fast I came out of the gate” when, to my knowledge you have been posting on Stereophile and instigating new threads since January 2011. Some 4 years if my maths are correct !! I think, therefore, I was actually fairly late ‘at coming out of the gate’ and challenging you !!

>>> “unless you truly do believe I'm not who I say I am,” <<<

Why would I doubt you are who you say you are ??????

>>> “you can’t call someone arrogant on one side May and refuse to look at what they have done on the other.” <<<

It was the specific sentence of yours which prompted me to describe you as “being arrogant” !!

>>> “and if you are going to be on the same forum as me and other advanced listeners maybe it would be wiser for the both of you to stay away from our threads.” <<<

And my reply is completely relevant :-

You are taking part in a public forum and no one has proprietary rights over any particular ‘thread’ OR exclusivity granted over any particular ‘thread’ just because one might start it.

>>> “with your lack of looking into what someone is about or doing. You want to paint this as me or anyone else being arrogant have at it.” <<<

I don’t have a “lack at looking at what you or anyone else is doing”. I have said repeatedly that I don’t challenge the fact that you can make improvements in the sound. I challenge your claim that yours is the THE method or THE answer !!!!

>>> “You can’t call someone arrogant on one side May and refuse to look at what they have done on the other.” <<<

You are again at it with your “presumptions” – i.e that I refuse to look at what you have done. YET again, Michael, I will explain why I referred to you as “arrogant” just in case you didn’t take it in last time !!!

It was the specific sentence of yours which prompted me to describe you as “being arrogant” !!

>>> “and if you are going to be on the same forum as me and other advanced listeners maybe it would be wiser for the both of you to stay away from our threads.” <<<

And my reply is completely relevant :-

You are taking part in a public forum and no one has proprietary rights over any particular ‘thread’ OR exclusivity granted over any particular ‘thread’ just because one might start it.

>>> “May, what you and Peter did in the 80's and before from what I have read did indeed help to open up peoples thinking at a time when many changes in the audio business was taking place.” <<<

Michael, the things Peter and I discovered in the 80’s are as relevant today as they were back then.

What my problem is with your recommendations and why I challenge you on your insistence that yours is THE method and you have THE answers, is that with your discouraging people not to do certain “Fixed Tweaks” actually has people walking past Problem A, walking past Problem B, walking past Problem C, walking past problem D walking past problem E, walking past problem F to get to G – to tune G !!!!!! I have NO DOUBT that ‘tuning’ G will give some changes in the sound – and changes which people are looking for. I repeat – I have NO DOUBT about ‘treating’ G, about ‘tuning’ G. But, the other problems A, B, C, D, E, and F are STILL there, left untreated !!!

Let me give on hypothetical example of what I mean, (although my hypothetical examples are usually very, very close to the truth) !!

You show a photo of a turntable with your Magic Wood Discs underneath. I DO NOT have a problem with that ‘tweak’ and if that ‘tuning’ technique gives people an improvement in their sound, then Whoopee.

However, if the vinyl record people are going to play on that turntable has been played numerous times, then it would, quite honestly, benefit from having a demagnetiser applied to it to get even better sound (resolve far more of the musical information).

If this so called “Fixed Tweak” is not carried out, then Problem A still remains, whatever you do in the rest of the system.
If it is not realised that the chemical mixture used in the plastic insulation material of the turntable’s AC power cord is a problem regarding resolving the complex musical information, then Problem B still remains. Whatever ‘tuning’ you do in the rest of the system.

Ditto the chemical mixture of the plastic insulation of the turntable’s audio interconnect cable, then Problem C still remains. Whatever ‘tuning’ you do in the rest of the system.

Presumably the Perspex cover of the turntable has been removed when a vinyl record is being played. Where is that Perspex Cover – still in the room ? Then, if there is a Perspex cover, then Problem D is still there, untreated !! And so on.

Then, when a person wishes to change to listening to a CD, presumably the Perspex Cover will be replaced over the turntable (as a dust cover). So, Problem D (the Perspex material in the room) will STILL be there, untreated. As will all the cables associated with the turntable (if the turntable is still in the room).

Now we come to the problem of the actual CD and to the problems of the AC power cord of the CD player and the audio interconnect of the CD player. Same problems as with those cables of the turntable. Taking the transformer out of the CD player, or out of the amplifier and gaining an improvement in the sound does NOT DO ANYTHING with the existing problems of A, B, C, or D. If those problems are not ‘treated’, then they STILL remain, whatever you do in the rest of the system.

Now, Michael. If one can go someway to ‘dealing with’ those problems by using such as Nordost’s ECO 3 liquid, then why should that not be recommended ? Why would you want to discuss such as ‘tuning’ G but leave problems A, B, C, D, E and F undealt with ?

Even if we use Nordost’s own explanation (that their liquid is ‘dealing with’ static) then all I have said still applies.

If one can improve the sound by applying the Nordost ECO 3 liquid to the labels of LPs, to the label side of CDs, to the outer insulation material of audio interconnect cables and AC power cords, then surely it should be recommended. Surely SOMETHING should be recommended ?? Unravelling or straightening out bunched up cables does NOT solve the Problem D associated with the chemical mixture of their plastic insulation. Nor does propping those cables up on your Magic Wood Blocks. The Magic Wood Blocks might be dealing with another problem but they certainly cannot ‘deal with’ the problem associated with chemical mixture of the cable’s plastic insulation.

And, Michael, the other thing I challenge you on is your belief that any problems to do with such as ‘static’ could be ‘dealt with’ by brilliant engineers designing circuitry at some time in the future or by any of your ‘’tuning’ techniques.

You cannot ‘deal with’ the problems of static or with the problems of the chemical mixtures in the plastics in the modern environment with “circuitry in equipment” !!!!!!! It does not make any different HOW many research labs you have visited, HOW many research technicians you have talked to, HOW many technical labs you have worked with – one cannot ‘deal with’ such as the problem of static, or with the problem of the chemical mixtures in the plastic materials in our listening environment with “circuitry in equipment” !!!!!!!!!!!!! So, constantly listing the people you have talked to, the people you have visited and the people you have worked with does not take anyone any further forward in this area !! And it is an area which deals with ‘sound’ !!

I do not have any problem with such as Costin organising a device to his design, following your ‘tuning’ ideas. As soon as he introduces his device into his listening room, it will have an effect on the sound. This point you and I agree on. That everything we do in the listening room affects the sound. Nor do I doubt that every time Costin ‘manipulates’ the tuning rods on his device he will get a change in the sound. What I DO say is that in order to get to those very ‘tuning rods’, he will have to WALK PAST Problem A, Problem B, Problem, C, Problem D, Problem E and Problem F. !!!! ALL not dealt with !!!

THAT is what I know, Michael.

THAT is why I challenge you when you claim that yours is THE method and THE answer.

I do not challenge that your techniques can give people improvements in their sound. I challenge that you are not looking at the overall picture – only some of it. And, I say that others have found other areas which are problem areas and which require ‘treatment’ so that people can obtain better and better sound !!!

>>> “The more you do this without "showing" and "doing" the more people wonder if you've got the smarts and the goods to begin with, and that May is why many scream "snake-oil".” <<<

I have said before, many times, Michael. You don’t have to ‘wonder’ about who has got the ‘smarts’ and the ‘goods’. I have given you enough examples of other people’s ‘smarts’ and ‘goods’ – which (as I have also said many times before) are giving you CLUES – clues of what else is going on regarding sound and what affects sound !!!

>>> “You say “michael you don’t have THE WAY", like your yelling at me. I answer you "tuning is the way, but I didn't create tuning", and you get bent all out of shape. Sorry May, this is not my problem. Not only do I believe tuning is the answer I practice it as the answer for all to see. You said "michael, you haven't looked deep enough" and I say "come work with us and then make that judgement for yourself". But that's not good enough for you and geoff, and this is where I start to call BS, and honestly May any good research facility would as well.” <<<

I don’t get “bent all out of shape” because of descriptions of ‘tuning’ techniques. I repeat, I do not doubt that improvements can be made in the sound by some of your ‘tuning’; techniques. I challenge you because your ‘tuning’ techniques do not address Problem A, Problem B, Problem C, Problem D, Problem E and Problem F – which others have recognised and attempted to do something about !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>> “Saying “all these things are mystery" or "it worked when it shouldn't have" are simply not acceptable at our level of research May. And you can call me arrogant till the cows come home and it doesn't change the facts.” <<<

From “your level of research”, then there is no doubt you should be able to explain “how certain things which people have described worked, when they shouldn’t have”.

For example. From “your level of research” please tell us why the UltraBit Platinum-Plus liquid is claimed (by the manufacturer) to work extremely well with LPs when it was launched as "Optical Impedance Matching" treatment ?? I.e as an optical treatment device but yet is effective with LPs.

If it works “as effectively on LPs as on CDs”, then the explanation cannot be to do with ‘Optical Impedance Matching”.

So, taking that it works on both, then WHY ?

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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Costin is correct

May & Geoff

Personally I feel Costin is correct here. These are not the types of conversations that do much good. It's one thing to be doing a true Q&A, but when things turn to either side feeling they are being attack that's when a mod should get involved helping to make the posts, threads or forum a more peaceful place. If not, all you really end up with is one big continuous flaming contest. I've called out a few people on here, when I thought they were being out of line. I don't think that is a bad thing, But it never feels good doing it. When threads turn into constant flaming, Costin is 100% right, the Karma turns dark.

For myself, it's difficult to have part of me involved in such positive activities and then come here feeling like I've just driven under a rain cloud. It's honestly a Vibe crusher.

In both threads I started for May and Geoff, I was hoping to find out more about them based on them saying certain things need to be done before music could be listened to faithfully. I believe, but could be wrong, they were not seeing these as fact finders. But in fact for me they were, and it's to bad these threads turned ugly.

In conclusion, I'm more comfortable with my findings and no longer ask myself is there something I missed like they were saying. It may have been a long painful way around to find this, but the end is the same. I realize it's my responsibility coming to forums to share info about the tune and not be a part of things that are hurtful to the credibility to the music business and I will make more effort not to be pulled into flame threads.

thank you May & geoff for letting me learn a little bit more about you

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Poor baby

Ya gotta admire Michael's tone of righteous indignation. Poor little feller, trying to make his way in a wicked world. Lol. One imagines when you live in Sin City lying is second nature.

You can't tell who the stalkers are without a scorecard.

 photo photo_22_zpswtqhtsew.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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What's real, Geoffy?

When everything about you exists only in your head, Geoffy, must be difficult distinguishing what's real... Your reality, Geoffy, seems to have very little to do with anything going on outside of your basement.

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Pardon the interruption

But I've been to a LOT of jazz clubs and I have never heard a "creamy" cymbal.

geoffkait
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Creamy cymbals
melissassippi wrote:

But I've been to a LOT of jazz clubs and I have never heard a "creamy" cymbal.

I'm kind of guessing here that Michael said that. He was probably thinking of the beer he was drinking at the jazz club. Cymbals should never sound creamy. :-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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finally

After two years of asking we finally come to the advanced concepts May & geoff have to offer along with their explainations.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/free-tweak-pwb-4-legged-device

http://www.stereophile.com/content/morphic-housekeeping-101

http://www.stereophile.com/content/lets

To be clear these are not something we as Tunees are endorsing but merely giving links to.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May Belt
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Two years ?

>>> “After two years of asking we finally come to the advanced concepts May & geoff have to offer along with their explainations.” <<<

Don’t play the innocent, Michael. You have stated before that you have read everything on our Home pages.

This information has been available for decades - decades meaning years and years !!

Even isoiP could quote from our Morphic Labels !!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
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What do we mean when we say advanced audio concepts?

Examples of advanced audio concepts are mind matter interaction, applied biology and neuroscience, six degree of freedom vibration isolation, quantum teleportation, quantum superposition, cryogenics, isolating circuit boards, Morphic field suppression, use of color to affect the sound, use of crystals for vibration control and RFI/EMI absorption, scattered background laser light absorption, and invisible light absorption. Examples of non advanced (retarded?) audio concepts include removing the transformer from the chassis, applying pressure or force to change the resonant frequency of an object, using adjustments on racks and speakers to change the resonant frequency or damp vibrations, use of stiff lightweight panels and other construction elements. See any pattern?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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just a tip

may & geoffy

Just a tip incase your too busy teaching chimp etiquette. People can read! You see, we're finally getting you guys to the place where your spilling your beans for others to judge, nothing more nothing less. When you guys troll you should stick to your troll and not open the door for others to find out where you stand on issues. Mistake #1. You've noticed and this will keep happening. I have no problem with taking each one of your little sidetracks and exposing you as I at the same time get to express others experiences.

Case and point. The Schumann Resonances is something both geoff & may started bringing up as an example of them going further than others. I let this go on for a while, and then started the thread on the topic. May quickly bailed and geoffy-boy-kramer (as we like to call him now for obvious reasons) came to the place of admitting he has never explored the topic past thinking it was interesting. Mu-metal is another one that they can't point to any real time experience while I'm doing the tests while writing, and on it goes. What they don't understand is that most serious listeners have gone way further on these topics than either of them have and know it's just a matter of time before they expose their lack of knowledge and experience. Time doesn't stand still and geoff posting 1930's comic book covers on his opening website page pretty much tells the geoff & may story.

Now it's sad that we have to deal with trolls, but if this is to be the case here, at least maybe along the way we can share a little experience that might actually be interesting. Either way please continue to visit TuneLand and feel free to start your own system thread.

And for crying out loud, everytime they say someone is angry besides them, realize we who love music are almost always smiling or after reading some of these posts laughing.

It will get better, just have to visit the nursing home once in a while and cheer up the old folks.

As my pal wrote and I got to sing background on "all the young dudes carry the news"

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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once step further and this is pretty darn funny lol

While geoff & may were trying to show off their knowledge in all things audio, they would commonly refer to Advanced Concepts. Basically a trolling spin trying to put down others while boasting of their vast experiences and knowledge. May would say she and peter have done everything I have and geoff....well just being geoffy.

here's a prominent statement they put front and center

""ADVANCED CONCEPTS like using colors to improve the sound, advanced concepts like Schumann Frequency Generators, tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, constrained layer damping, six degree of freedom isolation, mumetal tents for big transformers, holographic foils, quantum dots for audio applications, battery powered alarm clocks for improving sound and picture quality, you know, things of that nature."

Yes, it got us chuckling a little too, but here's where it gets interesting. Geoff doesn't even practice "tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, constrained layer damping, six degree of freedom isolation, mumetal tents for big transformers" any more as he found that a portable cassette player sounds better than his previous efforts. This is all documented on his threads.

Ok next, and I've been pointing to this lately. geoff after making his bold statement that you can see here "Schumann Frequency Generators" has never even used one! They both geoff & may move this tweak to the top of the must have list without ever trying them or going in any depth into the topic. geoff still screams that the testing facilities that measure the frequencies responses are false. All over the world sites are set up to measure the differences in lightening patterns and responses. Universities all over teach courses on these "frequencies" and Schumann himself refered to this as multiples or a range "The Schumann resonances (SR) are a set of spectrum peaks in the extremely low frequency (ELF) portion of the Earth's electromagnetic field spectrum. Schumann resonances are global electromagnetic resonances, excited by lightning discharges in the cavity formed by the Earth's surface and the ionosphere." and "Schumann resonance occurs at a frequency of approximately 7.83 Hz, but this frequency can vary slightly from a variety of factors, such as solar-induced perturbations to the ionosphere, which comprises the upper wall of the closed cavity. The higher resonance modes are spaced at approximately 6.5 Hz intervals, a characteristic attributed to the atmosphere's spherical geometry. The peaks exhibit a spectral width of approximately 20% on account of the damping of the respective modes in the dissipative cavity. The 8th partial lies at approximately 60 Hz."

With all this info availible they choose to tell the audio industry that the setting must be at 7.83hz and nothing else. This coming from those never trying the device and those telling the music lover that music has nothing to do with vibration except in a negative way. They call me desparate in making the case that music is vibration. They do this on forums by the use of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and internet SHOUTING!!! to make their point.

All this noise, and we find at the end that geoff had never even used a Schumann Resonance Device.

They say I'm "desperate to sell that music and audio is what it is" and these two are attempting to somehow defy science and physics, the fundamental forces and doing this while never even using the products they claim are absolute must haves.

They wonder why so many question their credibility and try to make it like they somehow are being treated unfairly and the rest of the audio world is wrong. They attack us for "tuning" vibrations without ever doing it themselves to hear the effects. They push that we should look at audio as a hypothesis and based their writings on this while puting down others who actual do the hobby in real time, hands on. We're desperate???? lol We're angry at the world??? lol

The only people here who are angry are those who have not yet found the answer to happiness! You can bring a horse to water, but you can't change him into a Shelby Convertible.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Oh, geez, here we go again

Well that's a totally different rant than your rant that claimed the Schumann resonance was actually a set of frequencies. What made you change your mind? While that explanation was actually funnier your latest attempt at an explanation is funny, too, so don't worry. It's always amusing when someone who obviously never saw the inside of a science textbook tries to weasel his way out of a totally bogus explanation of something or other. If you do the math (which I actually have, Pretty Boy) you'll see that the Schumann frequency is actually a constant even taking into consideration (small) variations in atmospheric temperature, width of the ionosphere and other (small) perturbations. The geometries involved are simply too large. You know, geometries like the 26,000 mile Earth circumference. So you can throw out all the perturbations! That's why the Schumann frequency hasn't changed in all the years since it's discovery. Hel-loo! It's still 7.83 Hz. It's not a variable. It's actually an approximation, you know, it takes into consideration the fluctuations in the ionosphere, etc. If it wasn't an approximation it would be expressed as 7.82879 Hz or 7.832117 or whatever. What's a few thousands of a Hz among friends? That's why we write it 7.83 Hz. Duh!

Have a nice day.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Conceits

May Belt
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That last posting

That last posting of yours, Michael, is ‘chock a block’ full of misrepresentation. Exactly what you keep doing !! No wonder these threads go on and on when I have to be repeatedly correcting your misrepresentations
!!

Will you STOP doing it !!

Mg:-

>>> “You see, we're finally getting you guys to the place where your spilling your beans for others to judge,” <<<

Your not “finally getting”. Correction !! Our ideas and findings have been available and known for over 30 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don’t try to make it out that we are ‘suddenly’ releasing some ideas!!!

Mg :-

>>> “Schumann Resonances is something both geoff & may started bringing up as an example of them going further than others.” <<<

Correction !! I did NOT bring up the example of the Schumann Resonance as an example that WE have gone further than others !!! I brought up the example of the Schumann Resonance and it’s effect on the sound (on the musical information) as RAISING a question that requires answers. The question being “What on earth is going on ?”

This then leads to further questions :-

Where is the musical information being affected ?

Why is the musical information being affected ? and

How is the musical information being affected ?

Mg :-

>>> “May quickly bailed” <<

No, I didn’t bail !!! I am STILL asking the questions.

When I asked YOU the question “Is the effect of the Schumann Resonance on the musical information before the ear drum or after the ear drum?” You replied “BOTH”. And THAT is as far as YOU went – as though that reply is sufficient !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that what you are meaning when you claim “done the questions and got the answers” ????????

Mg :-

>> “What they don't understand is that most serious listeners have gone way further on these topics than either of them have and know it's just a matter of time before they expose their lack of knowledge and experience.” <<<

You haven’t gone any further !!

Mg :-

>>> “geoff posting 1930's comic book covers on his opening website page pretty much tells the geoff & may story.” <<<

How on earth can what Geoff does tell MY story ? Will you stop it, Michael ????????

Mg :-

>>> “My dear, you haven’t the credentials to challenge me by your own words.” <<<
Where are these “words of mine” that show that I haven’t the credentials to challenge you ??

Mg :-

>>> “geoff after making his bold statement that you can see here "Schumann Frequency Generators" has never even used one! They both geoff & may move this tweak to the top of the must have list without ever trying them or going in any depth into the topic.” <<<

I HAVE tried it. And you have NOT gone into any depth into the topic of HOW it is affecting the musical information. WHERE it is affecting the musical information and WHY it is affecting the musical information !!!

Mg :-

>>> “Universities all the world over teach courses on these "frequencies" and Schumann himself refered to this as multiples or a range "The Schumann resonances (SR) are a set of spectrum peaks in the extremely low frequency (ELF) portion of the Earth's electromagnetic field spectrum. Schumann resonances are global electromagnetic resonances, excited by lightning discharges in the cavity formed by the Earth's surface and the ionosphere." and "Schumann resonance occurs at a frequency of approximately 7.83 Hz, but this frequency can vary slightly from a variety of factors, such as solar-induced perturbations to the ionosphere, which comprises the upper wall of the closed cavity. The higher resonance modes are spaced at approximately 6.5 Hz intervals, a characteristic attributed to the atmosphere's spherical geometry. The peaks exhibit a spectral width of approximately 20% on account of the damping of the respective modes in the dissipative cavity. The 8th partial lies at approximately 60 Hz." <<<

That last paragraph is what you do, Michael, constantly.

THAT paragraph gives NO information as to WHERE the Schumann Resonance is affecting the musical information. WHY the Schumann Resonance is affecting the musical information and HOW the Schumann Resonance is affecting the musical information !!!

If all that information gives the answers to those questions I have posed, then there would be NO controversy surrounding the effect of the Schumann Resonance device on the ‘sound’. Ted Denney (who makes one such device), John Atkinson (who has heard the device improve the sound) and others would all be able to roll over and admit – Oh, now I see – all is obvious - Michael has shown us the answers we were searching for”.

Yes, Michael. I am mocking you. Because you DON’T have the answers !!!

Mg:-

>>> “With all this info available they choose to tell the audio industry that the setting must be at 7.83hz and nothing else. This coming from those never trying the device and those telling the music lover that music has nothing to do with vibration except in a negative way. They call me desparate in making the case that music is vibration. They do this on forums by the use of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and internet SHOUTING!!! to make their point.” <<<

I have told you in the past the reason why I use capital letters. When I use italics to emphasise certain words on MY computer programme, it does not translate as italics when I transfer it as a posting. So, I use capital letters to emphasise instead of italics.

I DO NOT say that music has nothing to do with vibration. You are at it YET again – misrepresenting what I DO say !!!!!

I say that vibrations and it’s effect on the sound does not explain everything that changes the ‘sound’ !!!!

Mg :-

>>> “They say I’m desperate to sell that music and audio is what it is" and these two are attempting to somehow defy science and physics, the fundamental forces and doing this while never even using the products they claim are absolute must haves.” <<<

Will you stop misrepresenting what I say !!!

I am not attempting to defy science and physics, or fundamental forces – nor do I claim that any product is an ‘absolute must have’. I say that they are all part of a whole !!!! And should be considered as ‘part of a whole’.

Mg :-

>>> “They push that we look at audio as a hypothesis and based their writings on this while puting down others who actual do the hobby in real time, hands on.” <<<

Excuse me, Michael. “It’s OTHERS who are the ones doing the doing” is it ??. You know this HOW ?????????? Nor do I push that you look at audio as a hypothesis. I actually suggest that you look further and see what else is going on regarding what affects the sound – what affects the musical information.

You are misrepresenting what I say, repeatedly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Will you stop it, please Michael ?

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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Maybe we need to be more clear May

Hi May, the disconnect between us is still pretty wide and I'm not sure why. I'm not saying things to misrepresent anything. I'm merely telling what I hear you and geoff saying. I'm not going to take the time to look up quotes word for word, so all I can do is relay what I am hearing the both of you say.

likewise let me level the field a little

Your saying I haven't answered the questions is inaccurate. We again just recently did a real time testing of these units and reported on our findings. If you choose to not include these in your challenges and statements that "we have" you and I will not get very far if the goal is to build a knowledge unit.

If you choose to live in a world of making challenges not based on facts there's very little I or anyone can do. As I have said before you are more than welcome to come see for yourself, but I'm not your lap dog. I have far more important things to do than hold your hand through our testing and research. It's here for the taking may but I don't have the time nor patience to walk 5 miles only to get across the street. Sorry if you can't respect that, but I'm just being straight up with you. Like we have discussed I "do". What I don't do as you have probably gathered is babysit for those who can't do their own research.

May if you can only go as far as to quote reviewers, I have nothing to offer you cause we are on two completely different pages. I know you see this as...well whatever you do (if I say anything your only going to accuse me of puting words in your month), but I'm the wrong guy for you to be dating when it comes to these very twisty debates. I'm trying to keep some sense of humor and levity during this but please believe me when I tell you that your style would go exactly as far as being bent over and booted out the door by my peers. You may think you are up to par with them and myself but I can only laugh and say come join us for a day. If you spent one hour in production you would probably break into tears, or at least say "holy crap I had no idea". But me saying trust me is something you will never buy so the distance between us will need to remain.

As far as the misrepresenting, if you think I can't get your meaning there are two possibilities. One, you aren't being clear enough for me. Two, I'm bored to death talking to you. I would shoot myself if I were Peter trying to have a talk with you, lol. May, your like a naggy wife who could care less what's being said. Your completely blind that there are two or more in these discussions. I've seen several people tell you this now in their own way and it goes right over your head.

May let me ask you a question. Why would I have any desire to talk to you? I've given you threads to explain your stuff, open doors and everything I can think of and your like my mom trying to get me to clean up my room, knowing that I'll never clean it to her liking. Your like a school teacher who doesn't accept slang as a way to communicate. What you do May on these threads has zero to do with the listeners. All I see is some woman who can't find the answers and refuses to believe anyone else can.

You want answers come hear them, you want to continue convincing me your an old nag, keep doing what your doing. Nag nag nag nag nag, and no effort put into doing anything. I could write my research in detail from thousands of angles and not one of them would please you, but let me point this out, I don't see you as a doer, and if you were you wouldn't play the avoid game the way you do and have for years. You've made your lack of doing and showing your doing into a convenient policy and everyone can see this. Your trying to use spins instead of show and tell and sorry but I really don't think anyone buys it. Since we have been involved on these threads I have talked with people you know who have done your ideas and their take is not the way you present their take. May, people who do these quick trips into mind-land mostly come out of that particular zone in time. And many a while later see things differently than the first date.

You I think it was yesterday said something about desperate. Do you honestly not see yours & geoff's obsession with me as desperate? I could care less to do anything with you and geoff other than get you guys to stop stalking me. I've been trying to help you guys explain yourselves and you even turn those attempts into trolls. You say misrepresent, well don't talk to me, simple enough, don't stalk or troll me. I certainly have plenty of audio fans and clients that enjoy tuning, and every day is a fun adventure till I come here and see you two and don't know if I want to kick you or give you a big hug and say it will be alright. You guys are trying to make yourselves relevant by talking about me. Makes no sense, stand on your own two feet.

Anyway, got an audio meeting so have to run.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Who's zooming who?

Who's obsessed with who? Someone like yourself who tries to monopolize every single thread and turn them into billboards for TunnelLand and who has some pretty obvious shall we say educational challenges sees to think he's the smartest dude in every room he happens to walk into. Couple that with a learning disability and you have a recipe for disaster. Maybe you should give some consideration to taking a vacation from your angst and anger and frustration. I suspect listening to music nonstop 24/7 might not be the uh healthiest approach to life. Maybe a nice trio to Cancun. Feel better.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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or....

I should read up more on your "advanced concepts" http://www.stereophile.com/content/free-tweak-pwb-4-legged-device

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

David Harper
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Micheal

I truly believe that you are not who you say you are.

rrstesiak
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This Thread

All:

Could someone please illuminate me as to the purpose of this very long thread/discussion?

Regards,

Ronald R. Stesiak, PhD
National Science Foundation

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Purpose of this thread
rrstesiak wrote:

All:

Could someone please illuminate me as to the purpose of this very long thread/discussion?

Regards,

Ronald R. Stesiak, PhD
National Science Foundation

In my opinion the thread started as a troll from Michael, who seems to be in some sort of denial that anyone could possibly know more than he does about anything remotely connected to audio. He chose to attack what I refer to as Advanced Audio Concepts, which is actually my company's tag line. Nice, huh? In addition, May and I use what could be described perhaps as difficult to explain or preposterous sounding audio devices in our discussions because they are appropriate in distinguishing advanced from mundane concepts, you know, things like Schumann Frequency Generators, Mpingo discs, the original Intelligent Chip, SteinMusic Harmonizer, VPI brick, cryogenics, the Green Pen, Shakti Stone and the Tice Clock, among other things that tend to get under audiophiles' skin and that audiophiles sometimes poo poo as being either outright frauds or examples or placebos or of such little obvious value as to be declared worthless. You, know, concepts like quantum entanglement, quantum teleportation, mind matter interaction, morphic fields, laser light scattering, infrared light absorption, magnetic field permeability, things of that nature

But more than that I am pretty sure the actual intention of Michael in starting the thread was really to isolate or corral May and me off into some sort of obscurity by pretending these discussions of Advanced Audio Concepts belong on some thread that HE started. Of course that whole idea is absurd since advanced audio concepts are useful in many discussions or of discussion on their own merit. Michael apparently wishes to limit damage that non Tuning Federation discussions might do, especially discussions that contradict or minimize Tuning Federation ideals or ideas. As Michael enjoys stating, "we hVe tried all of these things already and understand them." Michael, as it turns out, would much prefer to carry on with his plans to take over the industry unfettered and unchallenged. Lol. And he apparently finds no mystery in the Schumann Frequency Generator, stating in his OP and elsewhere that he actually thanks the whole Schumann Frequency business has been explained already and that there is no mystery here. As Dr. Shaw says in Prometheus, folks believe what they choose to believe. PT Barnum opined that folks would generally be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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the OP

Here's the OP. It's really nothing more or less than what it says. The comments that follow are what they are, for better or worse, but the intent was to try to get to know both May & geoff better because they were coming to my threads challenging me (on May's part) and trolling me (on goeff's part). I basically have started several threads that deal with the topics at hand as well as getting to know those who make comments and why. My goals are simple. Talk to listeners as listeners, promote TuneLand and bring to the table the method of tuning. Where these threads go from there reflect the personallities, knowledge and experience of the people posting. As far as anyones comments on trolling you would have to look at the source and histories that go back way before any of us met. This is why the references to other forum that show some of the same involvements and techniques in posting styles.
______________________________________________________________

"here ya go may & geoffy, knock yourselves out

"ADVANCED CONCEPTS like using colors to improve the sound, advanced concepts like Schumann Frequency Generators, tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, constrained layer damping, six degree of freedom isolation, mumetal tents for big transformers, holographic foils, quantum dots for audio applications, battery powered alarm clocks for improving sound and picture quality, you know, things of that nature."

I personally don't see anyone here treating you guys with anything but fairness, but as I did before giving you your own thread to explain, here you are again. A wide open page to share with us your advanced technologies.

here, I'll kick it off for you

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schumann2/revisited.html "
__________________________________________________

I don't think there is any mystery to this but as long as there is a lack of moderating (JA says loosly mod) these threads they are what they are. Hopefully the readers can gain from the good and except the bad.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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who I am

Hi David, you said "I truly believe that you are not who you say you are."

I'm sorry to hear this, David. I am indeed michael green, here is my site http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ here is my archive www.tuneland.info . There you will find reviews going back to "89". If you want to look at the history of store and engineering during those years it will take you back to "81", if you want to go further back you will find more on the recording end. I understand that pre-internet stuff is harder to get your hands on but you can call me and we can do a Q&A.

let me know if this helps

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

David Harper
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Micheal

Also, I believe that your "research findings" are made up. That they are the product of your imagination. I don't know why you're doing this. Any professional audio engineer who reads your posts about how audio works would wonder what you're smoking. Why don't you post your stuff on the TAS forums and see what the response is.

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I actually don't get it

I actually have no idea what you're trying to say, other than to keep your iron in the fire. I made the statement that a number of things are in my opinion advanced audio concepts or advanced audio products. There is nothing really that is attackable in my comments or so I thought. It must be that you are in need of some sort of visibility or fluffing up so you're attempting to make something out of it. But what? Let me know if you can come up with some actual reason behind all this jibber jabber. Argumentative jibber jabber.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Concepts

michael green
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TAS

Hi David

I would love to post on TAS, but the activity there is too low to make it worth it. Saying this if you scroll down http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems you will come along Harry's system using my products, as well during the huge amp review days in the "90" look at what these amps were sitting in and on at TAS. You might also want to look at GL, JS, LL, TM, any one at the Seacliff location along with Audio, Video, Home Theatre, Widescreen Review, In Terms of Music, Bound For Sound, Soundstage, Hi Fi News & Record Review and see what they used and did much of their research on during this time spand. While your at it EMI, Warner Bros and a pretty long list of studios. Give Dr. Robert Barstow a call from SUNY. I could go on with these lists, but the point is, if I made up my findings so did these guys, cause they used the same tools supplied by me.

David, if your upset for some reason, deal with it, but don't come up here saying you are only able to play 10 CD's out of 300 successfully (that was you right) and think it gives you credibility. If you have something to contribute I and the others are excited about reading your comments. If you wish to make an opinion that's your right as well, but if your going to pooh pooh on probably around 7 to 8 years of the research this hobby did, take it up with the mags & rags not me. I'm sure they didn't make all their reports up and I know I didn't.

My friend it's pretty low class to disrespect this hobby and industry, but I do realize that the internet is full of people who just can't wait to unload, and a hobby as passionate and ego driven as this one is bound to have a lot of loud voices without much meat on the bones. So if you want to reference some music, here I am, but if your going to represent yourself with any class, rise above your comments and join the hobby. Share what you have, what you do, and the reasons (through listening) you come to the results, opinions and conclusion you have come up with. But David don't hide behind the cheap seats when there is so much music to enjoy, no matter how you wish to do so. Your not standing at the stall next to me so why act like it.

Sometimes I wonder if this is the hobby of egos & dicks or the hobby of enjoying music. You can make it either one David. As for me, I've got the music playing and the toes tappin.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Put a sock in it

What a load of self righteous hypocritical crap. Have you no shame? David smells a rat and so do I, a pompous, self righteous lying rat.

Have a nice day.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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or......

I will prefer if Geoff and David simply say "Happy Birthday Michael & Jerry", put on their favorite music and have a wonderful weekend, maybe going shopping for some new recordings.

Guys, spin some good Vibes! I would say that the majority of music lovers are happy people and would prefer to share in the joy of the hobby. Noone can make you adjust your attitudes, and noone can rewrite your reputations. All we can do is ignore, or respond by pointing to ignorance.

As I have in the past, I extend the invitation to the both of you to do some listening with us and explore what makes us different or find things we have in common. Having to come up here and respond to bad Vibes though before even sharing our love of music is a drag.

Again the OP is "being fair" and you will either demonstrate this or not. It's your MO to build and nobody else is going to do it for you.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

ChrisS
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Geoffy Says...

what other people say.

Geoffy says of others what many say of him.

Geoffy uses other people's products.

Geoffy doesn't know science.

Geoffy has no thoughts of his own.

Read all of Geoffy's posts on this forum and others.

Read what others say of Geoffy all over the internet.

Google search "Geoff Kait, Dynamica Machina"

Heaps of scorn and ridicule. Some examples...

https://mailman.xmission.com/lurker/message/20071127.175004.8ca4e858.pt-BR.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/6781.html

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/378528-machina-dynamica-worst-scam-ever.html

http://www.skepticalcommunity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23575&start=40

rrstesiak
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David:

Why the severe doubts of Michael's credibility?

I personally am a Research Scientist with an excellent education as well as an undergrad degree in Electrical Engineering and I don't see Michael as a fraud in any way. What I do see in Michael is a very unique way of approaching this hobby and to a pretty decent success judging by his client list alone.

That is a very unfortunate and serious accusation. One can't expect to say such strong words and not be asked to tell who they are and why they think what they do.

Regards,

Ron

geoffkait
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Frankly, I'm shocked

I'm shocked when folks have such strong feelings about me. I'm blushing like a little girl. And such angst and resentment. I'm getting a bad feeling.

Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
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"Uriah Heep"

Does many years of scorn and ridicule make you better at being shocked?

Wow, someone who actually enjoys this kind of attention.

ChrisS
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Go Home.

Get help.

geoffkait
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Poor Little Zippy

Poor little Zippy. Can't think of anything to say. Pinhead on the Hill. TuneLand might consider hiring a real Sockpuppet, one with an IQ above room temperature, and deep six poor little Zippy. Zippy kinda makes TuneLand appear just a little bit uh retarded. Well.....

Have a nice day, Zippy.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

ChrisS
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What's it like...

Just trying to fathom a lifetime of scorn and ridicule.

That's a lot.

michael green
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why they do?

Hi Ron

you said

"That is a very unfortunate and serious accusation"

mg

I think all this, is you getting a taste of what internet trolling is about. Unfortunately many forums let the harassment stay barely one level above illegal. An internet troll is someone whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet. The troll baits the victim until there is a return post and then the trolling cycle begins.

The government has been looking into how to make this an offical crime, but here's the thing. Usually (it's close to 95%) the troll has nothing to loose and so they would (if found guilty) serve time on our dime. I saw on TV a while back where the report said not to make the troll pay, but instead the medium source be made responsible. For example, let's say a troll here got so far out of hand that it caused a crime of cyber hate. The forum would be made to either detract the statement or be liable.

When audiophile forums first came out the trolling was over the top, but now that generation is older and dying off. I think trolling in the future is going to be cracked down on a lot more, but for now, it's going to be up to responsible posters like ChrisS, Costin, Toledo and others who call out the trolls.

I think what Chris is doing for example is a great way of dealing with this issue. Imagine what would happen everytime geoff trolled someone and the response was posting links to geoff's trolling? Geoff would either turn toward being more of a productive contributor, or would in time be forced to leave or banned.

The important thing we need to keep reminding is, there is a big difference between a difference of opinion that may never be resolved and internet trolling.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

Internet trolls live in a world of keeping things disorderly, and pulling as many people into the disorder as possible. Forums that don't set a high enough bar on this are great targets for trolls. With this I suggest, keep pushing referencing music and systems cause this is where the trolls can not do what they do successfully. If an audio troll was having success with their own listening they wouldn't be trolling. All of us who have been and are successful in this hobby talk far more about the music.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Michael:

Well written response.

I'm just giving the gentleman a chance in case he truly has an intellectual disagreement with your entire approach to audio or something and was just trying to grab our attention (which he has) to start an intellectual debate as to WHY he disagrees.

But, I fear you are probably right: just a troll.

Respectfully,

Ron

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The ox being gored

I believe I'm free to disagree with anyone any time. Does that make me a troll? Depends on whose ox is being gored. I can certainly understand why someone who is a manufacturer who thought he was free to troll for customers on an audio forum gets so upset when pulled up short.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Reply to Geoff

Geoff:

I wasn't referring to you as the troll. Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you scroll up further it will become obvious.

Best Regards,

Ron

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Scroll for the troll
rrstesiak wrote:

Geoff:

I wasn't referring to you as the troll. Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you scroll up further it will become obvious.

Best Regards,

Ron

Really? oh, I see, ChrisS is the troll. You might be right.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Clarification

All:

Sorry for the lack of clear communication. I did not want to further embarrass the listener in case they were just having a bad day. I have bad days.

I was referring to David.

Sorry David for "calling you out". It was not my intent. I just don't want other people blamed for my comment.

Regards,

Ron

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David = ChrisS
rrstesiak wrote:

All:

Sorry for the lack of clear communication. I did not want to further embarrass the listener in case they were just having a bad day. I have bad days.

I was referring to David.

Sorry David for "calling you out". It was not my intent. I just don't want other people blamed for my comment.

Regards,

Ron

David = ChrisS

If David is a troll ChrisS is also a troll.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

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