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michael green
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OR.....and I like this one better...

How about enough people say goodbye to geoff kait until he leaves or quites trolling, giving us a chance to get back to music.

He's pretty much in full explosive tick mode at this point.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Th hardon doth persist

You get an A for persistence. As does your hardon.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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hardon

geoff you say hardon an awful lot to guys on the audio forums. No offense at all to the Gay Community, but you do know I'm straight right? Also shouldn't you be asking guys (or gals) out in private. They have websites for that you know.

But since your asking, no I'm sorry but I have no hardon for you. One I don't do the guy thing and two, incase you haven't noticed, I'm not that turned on by frauds, phonies and generally on-purpose stupid internet trolling types. Don't think that I don't appreciate both you and May wanting to hook up with me, but I usually date females 20 or so years under my age group not 30 years over.

So if you don't mind, we should probably keep this about audio. Hope this isn't too much of a let down.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Whatev

Seems pretty weird for a grown man to go after me so persistently and without abate. What's it been - a year? As I told Toledo a year ago this will be fun but I didn't say for whom. Thanks for being the straight man all this time. I can't say it hasn't been fun for me. Schedule a visit with Dr. Ruth or Dr. Phil, maybe they can help sort it out for you. I'm guessing you sublimated listening for sex, but what do I know? Lol Frankly I'd prefer to talk about high end audio. If you have anything to say on that subject, which I seriously doubt, I'm all ears. I'm pretty sure your problem is you're out of ammo and you painted yourself into a very small corner.

But have a nice day anyway,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Conceits

ChrisS
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Geoffy's Pattern

Take note of Geoffy's pattern... Read carefully all of Geoffy's exchanges with posters here and other forums around the internet. Whenever posters ask about or take issue with Geoffy, he turns those questions and issues around and accuses the poster of the same. Geoffy often refers to alcohol/ medication use, sexual dysfunction, intellectual deficiencies, inconsistencies with facts and truth, etc.
Whenever he is questioned about his posts, he constantly replies with insults, cartoons, and often refers those issues (as above) noted in his posts back to others. Even using the exact same words of other posters. As illustrated above, Geoffy bats 100%.

May Belt
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AA is not a magazine,

May said:-

>>> “I have told you repeatedly that I prefer not to abuse the courtesy which Stereophile has extended to manufacturers being able to participate in the discussions groups and that I prefer to follow the guidelines (rules for manufacturers) as used by the Audio Asylum chat forum." <<<

Mg:-

>>> “Incase you haven't noticed this forum is called Stereophile. AA is not a magazine,

May.” <<<

Yes, Michael, I know AA is not a magazine. But their guidelines for manufacturers are good, general guidelines for any manufacturer, anywhere to follow. Why would I show far more disrespect for Stereophile by constantly ‘posting about our own products’ than I would for Audio Asylum ?

May :-
>>> “I have explained that we are DOING, constantly, and WHY I don’t post such." <<<

Mg :-

>>> “Well that's just stupid May. Why come to a forum to not post. "WHY I don't post such", really? And why are you here again? Oh, your here on a post driven forum, not to post, oh we get it now, "it's all one big mystery". <<<

You really love twisting people’s words around, don’t you ? I explained why I don’t “post about” our actual products !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect that is also the reason why other manufacturers don’t post about THEIR actual products either. Yes, I have seen other manufacturers participate in the Stereophile Forum but NOT in order to advertise their products. Perhaps they also prefer to abide by the general ‘guidelines for manufacturers’ like I do. I don’t see such as Ted Denney pushing his Schuman Resonance device or his tiny Synergistic ART devices constantly on the Stereophile Forum as “necessary devices for producing good sound”. Nor do I see such as George Louis pushing his UltraBit Platinum Plus liquid. Nor do I see Holger Stein pushing his Maestro lacquer or his Harmonizers. Nor do I see Ed Meitner pushing his cryogenic treatments. Nor do I see the manufacturer of the Furutech demagnetiser pushing their product. Nor do I see the manufacturer of the Shakti Stone device pushing their device. And so on !!

All of these products, because of their effect on the sound, have made many people aware that, regarding getting good sound, all is not well with both the audio equipment and with the listening environment. So, in my opinion, these products are JUST as important for people to be aware of regarding trying to get good sound, as any of your techniques you post about !!!!!!

But I DO see you Michael, a manufacturer, pushing endlessly your techniques and devices as ‘THE answer’ in the Stereophile Forum in the guise of “assisting people to get good sound”. The manufacturers I have listed (and many others not listed) have produced devices and techniques which ALSO ‘assist people to get good sound’ but who do not abuse Stereophile’s provision of a participating chat forum.

If the subject for discussion is going to be “assisting people to get good sound”, then these other techniques and devices I have listed warrant equal inclusion in any discussion regarding obtaining good sound.

I have seen you, in the past, pick one or more of those devices and techniques listed and take an opportunity to introduce them into your various paragraphs saying. ‘Oh, yes, have tried this (???) and there appeared to be an initial improvement in the sound but some time later I decided that the sound was ‘too fixed’ for me so decided to remove it (the device) or stop doing the technique’ !! THAT is the technique you use to pooh pooh any other device or technique which has not come from ‘your stable’.

Logic alone coupled with other’s positive experiences says that many (if not all) of the things I have listed – even in a ‘fixed’ position - will give improvements in the sound. And, therefore, should be considered EQUALLY as any ‘variable’ technique.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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my system

Hi May

I appreciate your point of view, but I think again your missing the point and as a result trolling me. My products are my system. My opinion is it would be stupid to come to an audio forum and not talk about ones audio system. Sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but I have a need to be me. I can't even imagine being in this business as long as I have and as involved and not talk about my studios, private rooms and audio systems. What's the point coming to stereophile if you can't talk about your stereo? You feel differently and that's ok for you, but I must be me.

You know May you don't have to agree with me or even like me, just stop trolling me. There's been myself and several others here who have tried to tell you how I feel about others sound and others products. You not being willing to listen after I again and again explain does not put the burden on me to be your interpreter.

May, you telling people I have pooh pooh-ed products is an audio troll, it's a lie, and you need to stop. It was both you and geoff who brought up the other products and set the stage so you could troll no matter what side my answers fell on. Anyone can go back and read this. I have never said anything but, any products sound is one point of view among millions. If you don't like this or agree with it, that's fine but don't troll me anymore.

I will say again for the record.

I design variable audio products, no different than what is done in the instrument industry. The audio signal and the audio chain is variable and I design with this truth as my main focus. There are many products in audio that have their own signatures. Sometimes this works for the recorded signal and some times not. MGA/RoomTune is about making the audio industry as variable as possible. If someone designs for signatures instead of flexibility this is a choice just like any other audio choice. It's not for me to like or dislike it. My goal is to be able to make change when desired. May you turning this into something different or saying I'm downing anyone elses efforts is just plain wrong, and you have had several tell you this in the past, and I'm telling you now.

If you have a problem with me pushing the method of tuning, I suggest you take this to the Mods here and let them decide. Don't come here and lecture me any more May. I respect your opinion but I'm tired of the trolling by geoff and you.

Geoff is busted as deserved, and you can either opt for being here in harmony with me as I desire with you and geoff or suffer the choice of continuing the ways of the past, up to you May, but I'm warning you, if you lie about me again I'm going to call you out from here on.

Maybe it would be best if you didn't refer to me at all, or reply to me here until the time comes when you want to reach a positive meeting of the minds.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Pretty Boy is wrapped around the axle

More lies and angst not to mention obsessive compulsive behavior from Pretty Boy. I suppose this was bound to happen what with listening to music 24/7. Michael is the poster boy for Audio Nervosa. I see a rehab in your future. Hope they have some good deprogrammers there.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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actually......

all any one has to do is read what May says.

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies"

Readers can go through the audio forums pages many years back and see the trolling both May & geoff do. Concerning audio as geoff says "it's all a mystery" to him. Like wise May says "have no answers". What the both of them do have are two trolling "methods" that they use to tag team others on forums and this one. May says "sparred" and list names, and geoff refers to the sparr itself as proof of there relevance. Keep in mind neither geoff or May are able to give the answers, because they are not after the answers but to merely keep the spins going.

Good news is both May & geoff are running out of pages to do their internet trolling spins on. As you can see in the above geoff is trying to throw whatever he can at the other members, as May says "mockery" and take a look at the "challenges to replies" from May, which have no substance. To them it has nothing to do with the content and everything to do with their practice of internet spinning.

In talking with several audiophiles, since watching these trolls (and reading), it becomes clear that their credibility has been challenged their entire audio lives. This is all well documented. Both of them put the focus on the trolling threads and deflect from their actual listening and testing.

however it's good to see these two brought before public opinion and scrutiny

There are no mysteries just two old people speaking as loud as they can, hopping from forum to forum until stood up to. Their only accomplishments are saying who they have "sparred" with, but I don't think they have sparred with anyone, they have simply trolled them.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Somebody please, Michael back his bullets

It's amazing to me why people get so uptight and angry about audio. I guess it's because they don't have a real life and listen to music 24/7. Don't they realize how neurotic that is? That's a rhetorical question, no need to respond.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
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Post deleted by Arthur

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michael green
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nobody is angry but geoff & may

Geoff, as you & may are being exposed for internet trolling the rest of us are ready to get back to having fun on these threads. If not here than on TuneLand. Either way we're excited about the hobby, whereas you & may seem to be only trolling it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Stalker alert!

I never said I wasn't a troll, pretty boy. Don't act so surprised. Deal with it. And stop stalking me.

Have a nice hair day,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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No one's stalking except geoff & may......

....but at last both may & geoff have spilled their agendas, for all to witness, and that's important for this forum and the other forums to see.

Announcement to the other audio forums and members here.

geoff said

"I never said I wasn't a troll. Don't act so surprised. Deal with it."

may said

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies"

They talk about "sparring" with members of audio forums, and as can be seen here and those forums, they have no desire to have productive audio discussions. Based on their self declarations I see no fault in the findings others have.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=geoff+kait+may+belt+snake+oil&qs=n&pq=geoff+kait+may+belt+snake+oil&sc=0-20&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=dbb28f3daad7423a8bd8bc97de20864b&first=1&FORM=PERE

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Club Meds

You're actually too dumb to be able to figure out our agendas, pretty boy. As for your agenda to collect young gullible audiophiles here and wisk them off to a life of Audio Nervosa at Club Meds, you're busted!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

ChrisS
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Geoffy's World

Populating the world with even more people who scorn and despise you, that's quite a hobby, Geoffy!

Do you have any real friends?

Google search "Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica".

geoffkait
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Are you huffing White-out again?

Not everyone treats me scornfully and despises me, pinhead. Only a selected few pinheads such as yourself. I do not suffer pinheads gladly.

I will be standing by patiently for your next whine.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
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Your Mom?

Or did she turn her back on you too?

geoffkait
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Combat boots

At least my mother doesn't wear combat boots, like yours.

Have a nice pinhead day.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
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Does Your Mom

...wear bright pink polyester pant suits?

No wonder you're the way you are!

michael green
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Personal Stereos

May & Geoff

Do either one of you have a stereo? I still have not seen any evidence that geoff has anything more than a portable cassette player with earphones, and May hasn't shown that she has any stereo at all. To talk about stereos at least we should have one, shouldn't we my friends? I'm sorry, maybe I'm repeating myself too much, but the fact is, I can't comprehend being on Stereophile without a stereo. I've asked May about this several times and her answer is "it's against the rules", pointed me to the rules, I read them, and they said nothing about May can't talk about her stereo. I saw where Stereophile doesn't want their pages to look like an ad with product pics all over the place and ad copy, but May not talking about or showing her system, or even having a link to it anywhere on the internet? I don't know one designer on this entire planet that doesn't show their system at either trade shows, forums, their website or even on a search engine, but May & Peter Belt's system can't be found anywhere.

Talk about mysteries, someone besides May & geoff explain this to me cause I just don't get it. They talk about coming out with designs all the time, and make comments about stereos, so why is it we don't have any clue as to May's stereo. Aren't you readers even a little bit curious as to what designers use to make their designs on?

Do you readers think maybe some of the mysteries geoff & may talk about stay mysteries only because they themselves are not open books when it comes to their own practices?

I mean something has to give guys. Your not going to prove your points by flaming or sparring me or Mr. Winer or James Randi, JJ, Zep, Darat or Stu or literally hundreds maybe thousands on the internet. Your going to prove your points by what you do, and by what you show you do and can do.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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System glitch, move along

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geoffkait
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Oh, geez, time to break out the Ambien

Michael, here's a news flash for you. It's not how long you listen to music every day. It's not about the size of your system or the size of your room. It's not about how much you work. If it was we'd all be millionaires. It's not even about how thin your cables are. It's not about how much your system weighs. And it's not about how real your system sounds to you. It's not about how well or how convincingly you think you can describe the sound of your system on audio forums. All these things are irrelevant. See of you can guess what the important thing actually is. Go ahead, I bet you can't.

Extra credit: is it possible to design an atomic bomb without having an actual atomic bomb to look at and copy? Or without being able to test it?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

rrstesiak
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What is your favorite Stereo at the moment?

Micheal & All:

For all of the times you ask other people what kind of stereo equipment they have, maybe set the example and list the exact components you prefer the most right now. I am aware you have multiple systems..maybe just describe your favorite. If we do that, it may make it easier for other people to chime in.

In fact, maybe a thread could be started depending on interest.

However, if I list my stereo components again, people may puke I've listed parts of it here and there for various reasons in various posts soo often. lol.
Nevertheless, for the sake of brevity, I'll list the latest incarnation as a post script, with some brief notes describing my favorite components.

I truly wish many many more people would share their systems here.. and their reasoning behind the choices, etc... this is Stereophile after all.. a magazine dedicated to the pursuit of all things audiophile!

Listen On,

Ron

Creek Evolution 50A Integrated
Bryston BDA-1 Balanced DAC
M2TECH HiFACE TWO USB/SPDIF converter
Rega RP-1 Turntable with Ortofon Red 2M
Vincent PHONO-8 phono stage
Epos Epic 2 Book Shelf speakers
Epos Epic Stands
Bowers & Wilkins ASW CM10 Subwoofer
NAD 516BEE CD Transport
Apple Macbook Air for digital file server
AudioQuest cabling for speaker cables and analogue interconnects.

This is roughly a stereo for a 10k budget. It also handles Analogue and Digital. I would label it as British Mid-Fi to be absolutely honest.
While it is not Hi-Fi..a component or two are..and it truly brings me hours of joy every week and I love this hobby. It's good clean fun.

I believe my very best components and favorites are the Bryston BDA-1 DAC ..which received an A rating in stereophile, and retails for $2400 with remote. I bought one used on Audiogon for $750. My reasoning behind choosing this DAC is that it is fully balanced with balanced outputs. It also accepts a plethora of standard interfaces...I chose BNC.

I also just recently added a good quality sub...it really rounds out my sound and makes my system truly full-range. (the B&W ASW CM10)..It reatails for $1500-$1800, I snagged one on clearance for $600, the best audio bargain I have had to date and includes a 5 year warranty!! :)

michael green
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systems, well some of them

Hi Ron & all

I've actually shared my systems on several post, but I don't mind sharing again, as long as it doesn't get boring for you folks.

Main Listening Rooms

Rm#1 Tunable Floor (Birch, Redwood, Brazilian pine), modded SAM left side wall (Redwood Birch), right wall wood closet, dimensions W10xD9xH7.9, wood/drywall

Rm#2 Tunable Floor, Tunable Rear Wall (same wood as above), Wood Door, Bamboo Blind W12.5xD12.5xH7.9

Rm#3 open area with Tunable rear SAM, Tile Floor, wood blinds, glass front wall on drywall with wood studs.

Drawings of the 3 main rooms I'll put on TuneLand. Probably have new pics in about 2 weeks which I will post there as well. It's been design summer season so some construction was done to fit the designing needs.

Acoustical all found here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f7-mga-roomtune-products

RoomTune, PZC's, DecoTunes, RTD2's, RTD's, Sound Shutters and of course Tunable Walls & SAM's

Cable http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t73-mga-cable-bare-essence-picasso http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t283-mga-cable-grounds

Picasso Type1 Type2 and Picasso Gold Type1 interconnects. Bare Essence Type1, 2 and 3 speaker cable
Bare Essence Power Cord & Mini Plugs. Custom Power Runs. MGA Cable Grounds (Brazilian Pine)

Platforms & Mechanics again http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t71-mga-platforms-racks-and-amp-stands

Speakers http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t72-mga-speakers
________________________________

Might be a little different to look at my system lists because the main focus of my systems aren't brand based.

For example Ron gives a list of brand components and cost and favorites. I can do this with all my stuff (MGA products) and the list would be long because of all the tweaks, but when it comes to electronic equipment used, everything is disaassembled. My systems are more tools than stock items. They may start as stock but quickly become part of the tune and sound & look nothing like the before picture.

I'll give links to Harold's systems as they are more stock, also this way people can see we do all ranges $$$$ wise. Also I should share there is more than one location for our systems.

favorite sounding?

In my world there is no such thing, or maybe I should say everything. Favorite sound to me is what I make it. My systems are completely variable and can make virtually any sound, within some signature guidelines.

brands

I like a lot of brands that come in and out of here onced made tunable, I give lists of them both stock and stripped on TuneLand (maybe sometimes). On here I lean to the side of caution more times than not. Showing my systems, not a problem, showing me torturing a $25,000.00 amp, not so much, unless I want a black eye at the next show. Obviously you can tell I've been through that before. I know of 3 times at least the show reports came out and said, we weren't sure if it was the brand X or MG's tuning that sounded great. That may sound like a plus until you have a hot headed glory hound asking you to tell the reviewer it was all his stuff and had little to do with the tuning.

So with all my disclaimers out of the way LOL. Rm#1 Magnavox 2300, Sherwood 4105 and Mini Mods. Rm#2 Sony (too lazy to go look), Jolida amp Mandolins. Rm#3 Magnavox 200, Custom MGA Mono Blocks, Violas. I have on hand a few other products as I aways do ready to spring into action.

I'll let you guys know when I get the new pics up.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May Belt
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A lifetimes experience.

Mg :-

>>> “I can't comprehend being on Stereophile without a stereo. I've asked May about this several times and her answer is "it's against the rules", pointed me to the rules, I read them, and they said nothing about May can't talk about her stereo. I saw where Stereophile doesn't want their pages to look like an ad with product pics all over the place and ad copy,” <<<

You are at it again, Michael. Distorting what I actually said. Will you stop doing it.

Mg:-
>>> “If you or her don't want to be quoted, maybe you shouldn't talk so much is all I can think off.” <<<

I am not worried about my words being quoted providing my words are quoted correctly and not constantly distorted and misrepresented by you.

I didn’t answer “it’s against the rules” to ‘talk about our stereo !! I ACTUALLY said :-

>>> “read Ariel Bitran’s “Note to manufacturers”.

“The Stereophile forum is not to be used by manufacturers as a pulpit to promote their products or discredit the products of others.” <<<

I see, Michael, you have just done what Stereophile asks manufacturers ‘not to do’. In a reply on the Mu Metal section you have used that opportunity to ‘promote’ one of YOUR products !!

YES. We do have a stereo system. We have had an audio system since mono days (since before stereo and when there were only valves – no transistors)!! We have had an audio system for over 60 years !!

However, the audio system we have now and use for most of our listening experiments is, in my opinion, only part of OUR whole emphasis.

Let me explain more fully – and I hope my explanation is not, yet again, distorted by you Michael for your own purposes. Such as your comment that I am on the Stereophile forum, discussing audio and listening to music matters, without a stereo system. Just because I don’t list what actual equipment it is. It is not necessary for me to list it – in order to prove that I have considerable knowledge about sound and listening to music.

During our listening experiments, when we find something which gives us further ‘sound’ improvements, what is extremely important is NOT only what can give improvements to our OWN stereo system but that any technique we discover HAS TO be able to improve other people’s stereo systems – not just ours !! So, to write about some technique or device which has improved OUR sound system is, in my opinion, a narrow approach. A technique or device we find which can improve OUR sound system, is sent out to (and I am not exaggerating) 100s of other people – to experiment with on THEIR stereo systems !! It is what works for those, other people, which is important – not just what works on our own sound system.

At the same time as sending others devices and techniques which we find improves the sound to try on their own system, any other audio equipment which we come into contact with (i.e. can borrow to experiment with - say from friends and family) is transient equipment so is not really OUR sound system. Meaning that additional equipment, to experiment on, comes and goes quite quickly. In fact, in my opinion, it IS more important to be experimenting with other equipment than with just ours alone !!

I am sure, that like you, any Brand name equipment we might be using has been extensively ‘treated’ by us – so the original Brand name of the equipment is no longer valid – because it is really no longer just that basic Brand !! Our equipment is a PWB ‘treated’ amplifier, PWB ‘treated’ CD player, PWB ‘treated’ MP3 player, PWB ‘treated’ turntable, pick up arm and cartridge, PWB ‘treated’ speakers and they are STILL being further ‘treated’ – on a regular basis. Plus existing PWB ‘treated’ audio equipment owned by other members of our family (we have a large family) where experimentation with that equipment is also still continued !!

It is not specifically what we can do with our own stereo equipment, it is what numerous other people can do to improve the sound of THEIR equipment and THEIR listening environment using our techniques and devices.

Mg:-

>>> “I don't know one designer on this entire planet that doesn't show their system at either trade shows” <<<

You so obviously don’t know our history – as you have claimed previously that you DO. We have exhibited at many Hi Fi shows in the past. Peter and I, personally, don’t go to Hi Fi Shows now but other designers and manufacturers do go with THEIR PWB ‘treated’ equipment. Whether or not they choose to reveal that their equipment has been PWB ‘treated’ is entirely up to them. Some have done so, some have chosen not to.

Some PWB ‘treated’ Brand name equipment has been written about by various audio journalists in the UK in the past – long before the Internet – so these reviews are not now available to read easily via the Internet. But, they are still there, printed in their original Hi Fi magazines, for anyone who has back issues.

Mg:-

>>> “Even now you bring up Mr. Winer in a negative way. Hey May "wakeup dear", if Mr. Winer believes that his approach is the way to go, so be it. It's his opinion, and he has every right to it.” <<<

Of course Mr Winer can express his opinion – that his approach is the way to go. And, others have the right to challenge him (to also express their opinion) – especially when he did what Stereophile asks manufacturers NOT TO DO – he discredited other people’s products and techniques – to the point of implying fraud.

I repeat:-

>>> “read Ariel Bitran’s “Note to manufacturers”.

“The Stereophile forum is not to be used by manufacturers as a pulpit to promote their products or discredit the products of others.” <<<

Mg:-

>>> “If either of you think you have a product or idea that will change the audio world, don't troll send it or travel around doing demos.” <<<

You don’t know your audio history, do you Michael. Or you would never make statements like that. I have already ‘posted’ copies of some review reports on our ‘treated’ (other manufacturers Brand equipment) and on our devices and techniques during yours and my discussions.

I had written all this, ready to post, when I read your reply in this section. I see that your reply is saying much similar to my reply to you.

i.e You also say that “the equipment you use is more tools than stock items. They may start as stock but quickly become part of the tune and sound & look nothing like the before picture.”

Ditto our experience.

You also said :-

>>> “On here I lean to the side of caution more times than not. Showing my systems, not a problem, showing me torturing a $25,000.00 amp, not so much, unless I want a black eye at the next show. Obviously you can tell I've been through that before. I know of 3 times at least the show reports came out and said, we weren't sure if it was the brand X or MG's tuning that sounded great. That may sound like a plus until you have a hot headed glory hound asking you to tell the reviewer it was all his stuff and had little to do with the tuning.” <<<

Ditto our experience !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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I get it

May, I get it, just disagree with it.

I'm also tired of this whole distorting BS. No-one but no-one distorts more than you and geoff on these audio forums.

You can't show your work in progress, than I call BS, simple as that. You can yell all you want May, your only going to make your throat sore, it's not going to change anything. Listeners come here and see you have no system to show and people come here and see geoff only has a portable cassette player. You look at the guidelines and see them differently than others, and attempt to enforce your own standard to suit you. My recommendation would be apply for the position of mod.

Bottom line, I could care less talking to someone who isn't in the hobby or can't show they are in the hobby of listening. There's nothing to talk about with you and geoff other than what has been stated by you before.

may says

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies" and "sparring"

geoff says of audio

"It's all a mystery"

Why don't the both of you go talk to others here and stop with the "michael trolling"? Isn't it clear that I don't see either of you as true "contributors"? I gave you many nice guy chances and you spit on them, and made tons of twist, including saying I was twisting things. May I could give a Rats behind about twisting anything.

I'm here to listen with my fellow music lovers and have fruitful discussions as well as to promote the heck out of what we do with tuning. If the mods feel I'm making an ad, all they have to do is say and I'll go. I don't want to break any rules or guidelines, but I also want to have the freedom to be me if I'm going to be here, and part of being me does not include audio trolling by you and geoff without me calling you out.

Now I responded to Ron's question, and you obviously felt the need to respond the way you did, or an earlier post or whatever.

The fact is May, and you can put this in as a quote anytime you want. "I don't see why someone would come to Stereophile and post, without showing, linking to or at least giving a description of their high end audio stereo system". This is my opinion May and you have yours, but lets be clear "no system from May & Peter Belt, no credibility from me, period". All this stuff your saying to me (again my opinion) is all talk no walk.

Now others might feel completely different. You, geoff and Peter might be God's gift to music to them, and God bless them for feeling that way. I have absolutely zero problem with that. I mean go do your thing, but when you do that thing as an internet troll, trolling me, I'm gonna call you out and ask you politely at first to move on (which I have) or show a little proof why I should give you the attention your saying you deserve while yelling at me, and geoff flaming me.

The answer to me is simple and Ron just said it "share our systems". It's a hobby about music and music systems. Ron asked me to share and so that's what I'm doing and going to do even more with some pics. I thought his request was extremely fair and even fun. Nothing to get uptight about, the man simply wants to see more of my systems and what I'm doing I suppose. Why wouldn't I want to oblige. Ron didn't ask me to jump from a plane with him, he just asked for a little show & tell. To me May this is the basic of basics in this hobby. You show me your system and I show you mine, and from there we start to discuss the issues.

I'm always asking people "what do you want to see?", what can I do to "show" what I am "doing". I don't make this long, what is it May says "may's adjectives" (I can't say them or I'll be mis-quoting, "there you go again"). You and geoff have called me about every name in the book between the two of you, and all I ask for is info on your stereo systems on "Stereophile"?

I hope someday you'll be able to look at your & geoff's posts from the view of others as well as the points your trying to make. There must be some reason hundreds of people question your credibility and sincerity. If someone questioned me that much, I'd be showing my system, and thinking about how to get them on a plane to see it:)

not that tough May

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Is it true that when you lie your pants really are on fire?

Why is it that liars always accuse others of lying? Oh, I know. It's because they're pompous, self righteous and indignant. Case solved. That's one less mystery in audio.

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoffy Doesn't Do, Doesn't Know

Geoffy, you have no way of backing up anything you say.

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Hey, ChrisS
ChrisS wrote:

Geoffy, you have no way of backing up anything you say.

Nice to smell you, again. Where have you been keeping yourself?

Have a nice day,

Geoff Kait
Machina Draconian

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Geoffy Doesn't Do, Doesn't Know

Your lack of anything concrete to contribute to these discussions has nothing to do with me.

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Work in PMEL lab

I worked in a PMEL lab in the Air Force for 6 years, most with engineering degrees that ranged from BSEE to PHD's. All of our test equipment can be traced to the National Bureau of Standards. This equipment measured mechanical, electrical, optical and radiology. We measured in PPM, ULF, UHF, VHF, AC, DC, current, resistive, inductive, etc. None of this test equipment had designer cables. Our precision resistors were accurate to .001 ohm. They were in an non conductive oil cylinder in a temperature and humidity controlled environment for repeatability. We also had 1 ohm resistors used in power supply calibration that were 3 feet long and big around as your thigh. Same with inductors and capacitors. If it could be measured, we did just that. IF it was out of spec we repaired it. This was back in the late 70's and early 80's. I am sure the physics involved has not changed since then. What I am getting at is we were all gear heads back then and the most important part of the stereo was the speaker. Having enough power to drive it also mattered. We took our amps into the lab and found out that distortion was basically inaudible unless there was something wrong with the amp. And they had frequency responses that were beyond human hearing. One thing we could all agree on was that the music mattered the most.

When I was stationed in Denver there was a concert hall called the Rainbow Music Hall. Saw quite a few groups there but what I found the most interesting about the place was that it was a converted movie theater and the sound was fantastic. They had these velvet drapes along all of the standing walls with a nifty acoustic ceiling. Along with the JBL and Klipsch sound system, Jean Luc Ponty and Roy Buchanen never sounded so good. Along with Red Rocks those were the best venues at the time I had ever heard. As a trumpet player for the last 50 years, the rooms I have played in have more than enough cause for the sound to be good or bad. Old Main at Sam Houston State University is no longer there as it burned down, but it had a great sound that resonated very well. The student center there was a reflective mess. I guess what I am saying is that the room has a greater impact on the sound. Play an instrument in a practice room which is dead acoustically, and if you are not used to it, shows every flaw in the sound. Plus you can hear your blood rush through your ears and hear every bad intonation on your instrument.

I have modest gear in an old Thorens TD-145, Grommes 20wpc tube amp and Klipsch LaScala speakers. I've replaced the wiring in the amp a few times as the heat tends to make the wiring brittle. And I use lead solder which is a no no in the PC world today but that no-lead crap just does not flow like the rosin core does. Enjoy the music, and the room.

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Rainbow Music Hall

Now that brings back memories. Did music camp there a few times.

We're getting old LOL!

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Am familiar with the concept

I'm quite familiar with the concept that capacitors that measure the same sound the same. And the one about cables that measure the same sound the same. And the one about all amps that measure the same sound the same. And the concept that there is no such thing as wire directionality. And CDs are perfect sound forever. I'm pretty sure those are referred to us in the high end as old wives takes or perhaps fairy tales. No offense to you personally or the PhDs and engineers who you worked beside in the lab.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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before this gets carried away

I have a suggestion.

Let's have some of us gather 4 different capacitor brands all measuring the same and listen to them describing the difference in sound?

I happen to have mine right here. And, it's no trouble at all because we have been doing this very study.

As I have been pushing as of late, time to get to less talking and more doing.

Gentlemen? What say you?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Capacitors

All:

Which component(s) of the audio chain are we referring to?

Bizarrely enough, I'm beginning to build my own linear power supply with a proven design from the audio diy forum. It includes a 4,700uF smoothing cap.. I know it's just a power supply but I guess I could order a few different brands or a few different capacities.. But I think this kind of approach would gain the best results on an amplifier or pre-amp.

finally, I have heard of "tube rolling" and "op-amp rolling" ...: but capacitor rolling? Not sure if this is meant to be a very serious and subtle tuning exercise or a slight dose of humor, but I have the intellect and background to possibility participate if this is serious and others chime in.

come to think of it, I have my classic NAD 7140 as my second system.. that certainly couldn't hurt updating its capactiors. Now that could be interesting..

Steve C. : your "modest" system makes me envious! Especially the Thorens! Good taste.

Michael: you listed "Michael Greene mono blocks" or similar description in an earlier post describing our systems.. Could you elaborate on the mono blocks?

Kind Regards,

Ronald R. Stesiak, PhD
National Science Foundation

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Testing capacitors

A tip for those about to embark on capacitor listening tests: make sure you allow sufficient time for the capacitor under test to fully break in if you wish to obtain fair and accurate results. The reason I say this is because as capacitors break in their sonic performance can change dramatically up and down for quite some time, the worst offenders in this regard being the formidably expensive Duelund capacitors which according to many very patient customers require months to break in, and that is months while signal is applied. Thus attempts to identify the actual sonic performance of ANY capacitor before it has fully broken in can easily result in false conclusion. I suspect if my suggestion is followed we'll be getting Michael's capacitor test results in about two years. Chances are good that new solder connections do not take as longer to break in as Duelund capacitors. I won't even broach the subject of transformer and wire and fuse break in or fuse directionality. That can be for later.

Michael observed, "Before we get carried away...,"

to which I say, Indeed!

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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further to testing capacitors.

>>> “Thus attempts to identify the actual sonic performance of ANY capacitor before it has fully broken in can easily result in false conclusion.” <<<

Also Geoff, as well as the length of ‘breaking in time’ with components, there is the subject of the very solder used affecting the ‘sound’ of those components.

For example, if such as Steve C takes part in the proposed group experiment of the ‘sound’ of different capacitors and HE uses solder with a higher Lead content (as he has stated he does use)

Quote by Steve C:-

>>> “And I use lead solder which is a no no in the PC world today but that no-lead crap just does not flow like the rosin core does.” <<<

Then any component Steve C solders in and listens to will sound better than any of the components used by others in the group experiment who have been using non (or the very minimum) leaded solder. This again would distort the results as well as any ‘breaking in’ of the components.

So much care has to be taken when doing comparison listening trials because of the numerous and various things which can affect the sound.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

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being a walker not a talker

That's what I like about being a walker and not a talker. Here's is a pic of me starting a particular go round on this testing in Nov 2 2014.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t4p570-michael-s-system

If you go back another couple of years you will see the same type of testing.

This is why I talk of people being relevant and continuous in the research. You can't make realistic comments on current events if you got rid of your Quad and Fulton speakers and in-room listening many years ago.

It might be ok for general circular type debates, but when it comes to where the rubber meets the road you have to be constant and on top of the issues. If not it's barely slightly higher than he said she said.

Fact is, if geoff would have done these types of testing himself he would know that these parts never stop "breaking in" fuses and cables never stop developing path ways, and fields never stop in their development.

Every topic that happens here leads back to one fact "everything is variable" plus "everything is on-going". And people who actually do profound on-going testing know this. People who do advance testing know that the answer is "variable tuning".

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Oh, boy here we go again. The capacitors never break in?

If what you say is true and I actually don't think it is, that capacitors never stop breaking in, then you will never be able to test the capacitors properly, you know, since they will never be at their peak performance nor will they break in the same way. How anyone could come up with wild theory that capacitors never break in is a mystery. How could anyone control all the variables involved? The mind boggles. One imagines that won't stop you from testing and publishing the results of your tests as if the results were meaningful and that you were some sort of ground breaker. If one can do the tests properly why would he try to claim any sort of higher ground? No need to reply, it's a rhetorical question. Glad to see I'm back under your skin. Just like old times.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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just promoting, thanks

Nah, not under anyones skin as far as I can see. I think we all got over that in the last round of trolling both you and May did. At least from what I have seen anyway. Looks like many of the members here who get tired of the trolling you provide and the dead forum you have created have been coming to TuneLand to read and enjoy the hobby.

So, as I have said in the past, when the trolling picks up here the reading picks up on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ so it's really no biggie, we win either way and listening life moves on.

TuneLand welcomes all of you enjoying the fun of high end audio!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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A little on the shallow side!

Here's a fair example of shallow waters presented by the folks who bring you Mystery "how & why" Audio.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/are-sacds-compressed

Pay attention to the content, and how it reaches a certain level of learning and then stops and reverts to flaming. Most people who present these magical tweaks don't really do their research or stay up to date. What they do is spend their time trying to make themselves appear as if they have something you don't.

The interesting part is we don't really have to go all that far in our own researching to find all kinds of info these days on particular sciences and technologies. These threads that pop up on dynamic range are a good example of the OP having not looked in depth at the topic.

On this thread (the link above) you'll read "volume has nothing to do with dynamic range". This is said even though almost every article on dynamic range talks about the volume. The whole discussion on "the loudness wars" is about volume so much so that it is called "loudness" wars.

It's a little more than frightening that the ones coming here to tell us we "must have", don't themselves even have the basics of the hobby understood.

1) they don't know how the audio chain in full operates
2) they don't have stereo systems to do their own demos
3) they don't know that audio is made of variables

Every new thread that surfaces by these who say "It's all a mystery" gives proof that audio is all mystery indeed, to them!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Uh, oh, more lecturing and posturing from ToonLand.

It's called loudness wars because the people that you apparently identify with - the people in the industry - suffocated all the life out of the music and substituted loudness for dynamic range. I suppose upon reflection the tactic of substituting volume for dynamic range works for most of the people most of the time, especially teens and pro audio enthusiasts like you know who. The big mystery is actually how you ever got two paradigm shifts behind the power curve and missed out on all the progress real audiophiles have made in the last twenty five years, you missed the boat on tiny little bowl resonantors, vibration isolation, constrained layer damping, holographic rainbow foil, battery powered clocks that change the sound just by sitting there in the room, quantum WA chips, directional fuses and cables, mu metal, contact enhancers, CD treatments, demagnetizers, ionizers, and crystals. Hey, you missed all the fun! Sorry about that.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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:)

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f7-mga-roomtune-products

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Mystery solved
michael green wrote:

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f7-mga-roomtune-products

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

It's not really a mystery that you're here to lure unsuspecting naive and gullible audiophiles into the black hole of ToonLand, never to see the light of day again. Looks like you've given up on any intelligent discussion on this thread. The thread YOU started. That's a shame. There are more mysteries in the world of audio than is dreamed of in your philosophy, Michael. To whit, intelligent chips, teleportation tweak, The Ree X Pen, Lessloss Blackbody, Essence of Music CD treatment! SteinMusic Harmonizer, Quantum Temple Bell, Morphic Message Labels for barcodes, cryo'd Baby Promethean Mini Isolators, Mpingo discs, Shun Mook Original Cable Wraps, wire directionality for EVERYTHING, Flying Saucers for Windows, The Quantum Clip, NASA grade ceramic DH Cones from Golden Sound, Walker Audio Talisman demagnetizer, Particle Accelerator negative ion gun, Animal Magnetism Cable Collars for power cords and interconnects, High Fidelity Cables, using various colors on CDs, Dark Matter invisible light absorber for CDs, Sugar Cubes room acoustic resonators, crystals for windows and interconnects and speaker cabinets, crystals for sound pressure peaks in the room, crystals for transformers, cryogenic treatment of CDs and LPs, cryogenic treatment of books, and the use of Feng Shui for high end audio. The latter being a most likely topic for my next thread. Stand by one. I'm completely serious.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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geoff kait?

geoff's credits

http://www.bing.com/search?q=geoff+kait+fraud&pc=Z161&form=ZGAIDF&install_date=20111120&iesrc=IE-SearchBox

some of MG's

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/thetunebroadband/index-4.html

you need to make some new friends dude, it's not all that hard :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Smear campaign

Name calling doesn't bother me much, over the years I've had quite a few low-life's say all manner of things on line. I don't actually blame you too much for your smear campaign against me since you're obviously ill equipped to engage in an intellectual debate. One supposes they don't teach intellectual argument fine points at whatever low-life Dayton high school you either did graduate from or didn't, who knows? Why not stop being part of the problem and be part of the solution, Michael? Come on over to the A Team. I suspect even you realize you've taken this whole prairie dogs on crack Tuning thing about as far as it can go. Time to move on.

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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campaigning? LOL

A-team? Who exactly is on your A-Team again? When I type in geoff kait or your company name the search engines are the ones to tell what the rest of us see.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Machina+Dynamica+Fraud&FORM=R5FD2

I personally don't know you from adam, except through your posting here and you bringing up Randi's name and you being a faithful internet troll on forums that have no moderating.

back on point though

I'm happy to see the forum post more involving articles and hope this continues, as this camp of the hobby has a tendency to appeal to the limited views and not the whole of audio.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Windbag
michael green wrote:

A-team? Who exactly is on your A-Team again? When I type in geoff kait or your company name the search engines are the ones to tell what the rest of us see.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Machina+Dynamica+Fraud&FORM=R5FD2

I personally don't know you from adam, except through your posting here and you bringing up Randi's name and you being a faithful internet troll on forums that have no moderating.

back on point though

I'm happy to see the forum post more involving articles and hope this continues, as this camp of the hobby has a tendency to appeal to the limited views and not the whole of audio.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael, you have been reduced to a windbag and rumormonger, albeit it one with nice hair. Sorry you had to end up this way. C'est la vie. Good luck in your quest for acceptance and mediocrity.

Have a nice hair day.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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windbag

I think windbag has a cooler ring to it. Rumormonger, doesn't do as well cause "fraud tales" "snake oil" about kait & belt have been around since they entered the scene and began getting called out within their first couple of posts on audio forums, at least rumor has it that way.

Now the geoff kait A-team, that one is interesting. I'm sure May is on his A-team. To quote them...

geoff said

"I never said I wasn't a troll. Don't act so surprised. Deal with it."

may said

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies" "sparring"

you build your own reputation

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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