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CaptainVinyl1
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New Believer

Though I always accepted the fact that speakers and turntables would benefit from vibration control, I was hesitant to believe that it would make a difference with a cd player. But just for kicks, I took three small wooden blocks, each 3/4" x 3/4" x 1 1/2", and placed them under my Marantz Universal Player that I had purchased used a couple of years back.

I was already blown away by the improvement in sound quality from the Marantz compared to my previous Sony Carousel, so I was ready to call the wooden blocks a waste of time.

I placed one block just inside each of the two front feet. The third went in the center, just a little behind what felt like the heaviest part of the player. I also placed a small square of felt flooring underlayment under each block. Then I slipped in a CD of Vangelis' greatest hits.

I was prepared to not be impressed, but I was flabbergasted by the improvement in the already fine sound. Higher highs, and deeper lows, with much improved midrange clarity. I used to think that my 30 years of exposure to construction equipment was why I could rarely hear the cymbals anymore. But there they were! And even though I have heard this particular CD dozens of times, I was hearing instruments and layers I never heard before.

This continues with every disc I play for the first time in a while. I am stunned by how such a simple improvement could make such a big difference.

By the way, the little wood blocks used to be under my Pro-Ject 1.2 turntable. They greatly reduced vibration compared to the original Pro-Ject feet, and seemed to add a little bass definition. With the blocks now under the Marantz, I took some Painter's Pyramids, (for the un-handy around the house types, Painters Pyramids are little plastic pyramids about an inch and a half high that one can use to support a workpiece being stained or painted), and placed three pyramids under the Pro-Ject where the blocks used to be. Kind of like a really poor man's BDR Cones. I can not say the sound is definitively better, but I can pretty much hit the shelf with a hammer without disturbing the playing.

michael green
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tuning!!

There is absolutely nothing like the first few steps down the road of tuning. Congrats!

It makes you sit there and start looking at everything that can be adjusted.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Laen
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BS. It is impossible that a

BS. It is impossible that a block of wood makes a CD player sound better. Unless you had vibrations, then the problem is you need a more supportive stand

michael green
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LOL

Where have you been "laen"? There's listeners tuning their systems all over the place.

Audio signal "IS" vibration my friend. Not trying to get on your case, but the swing has certainly swung the other direction on the whole vibration issue. You might want to give it a try before throwing the "BS" card so loosely. I don't know about the other designers like Cardas who makes his version, but we are shipping hundreds out a month to new Tunees.

The days of calling "BS" in high end audio doesn't hold the weight it use to. People could come up and make almost any statement, but this frankly becomes boring for the real listeners after a while, and it is obvious to those who have moved beyond that the person saying the "BS" is puting themselves in the hot seat of proof and not the other way around.

Personally I think it makes a big statement about the person calling BS. It's a hobby of doing after all, and those who have not done, or don't know how to do are the first to sound off I have noticed. It all comes down to a decision between being a successful listener or not. Or to what level one wants to go, but "BS" callers...sorry but most of the time, these calls are made by those who have not broken bread yet with their systems.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

David Harper
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Marantz player

sorry, Micheal, but little blocks of wood are no better than the feet on the Marantz player at "controlling vibration".
If this guy has a vibration problem, he needs a sturdier stand. I have a Marantz UD player, and it doesn't vibrate,it's dead quiet. And what makes you think that someone who disagrees with you"doesn't know how to tie his audiophile shoelaces"
I was an audiophile when you were in grammar school. While were at it;

The only way a soundstage can exist is if a soundstage was recorded. This means live music recorded in an actual venue,such as a club or a hall, not in a studio. A studio recording mixed down on multitrack recording equipment cannot have a soundstage. You may be creating some weird sound effects thru "tuning", but it is not a soundstage.
And sound quality is entirely different from soundstage.

michael green
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tuning all day long

Actually David, people are tuning like crazy at the moment, and doing it all over the world!

The truth of it is, your calling "vibration" a problem, when "vibration" itself is audio signal. Remove vibration from the signal and you will hear nothing at all my friend. I invite visitors to read http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code .

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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A beautiful Strawman Argument!
michael green wrote:

Actually David, people are tuning like crazy at the moment, and doing it all over the world!

The truth of it is, your calling "vibration" a problem, when "vibration" itself is audio signal. Remove vibration from the signal and you will hear nothing at all my friend. I invite visitors to read http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code .

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I realize you're fond of saying it, and I realize you probably actually do believe it but in fact the signal is not a vibration. Even if I agreed with you that the audio signal is a vibration, which I actually don't, the audio signal is subject to the mechanical and acoustic vibration that (most) audiophiles have come to scorn. It would be far more accurate to say the audio signal is in fact a WAVE, as opposed to a vibration, although a vibration has frequency just like vibration (I read your mind). But the wave that is the audio signal is an electromagnetic wave. And we all know or should know by now, with the possible exception of you and Costin, that the electromagnetic wave is composed of photons, which have NO MASS. since the audio signal has no mass it cannot vibrate, as you say. Any more than a flashing strobe light is vibration. But either directly or indirectly external forces, vibrations can distort the pure audio signal that we the rest of the world struggle so hard to keep intact. External vibration affects the spinning CD, the CD Transport, internal wiring, capacitors, either causing mechanical jitter in the player or some other unwanted phenomenon. Just as the vibration of the transformer was found to produce distortion by those two guys from Pittsburg when they experimented with cork.

It's hard to believe but it's been almost 20 years ago that no not Sgt. Pepper learned to play but that Stereophile magazine published Shannon Dickson's monster article on vibration isolation, "Bad Vibes." See link below for the full Sterophile article.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/index.html

Now, there is one characteristic of an audio signal that might make someone think that perhaps it's a vibration and that is FREQUENCY. But in order to vibrate, in the physical sense of the word, a thing must have mass. And it's that mass having a frequency of vibration that produces a FORCE. And it's that FORCE that causes the problems we see in audio. And it's these problems that are discussed in great detail in Bad Vibes. Since the audio signal, whether you agree it's not a vibration or not, is SUBJECT to external vibration such as acoustic waves, Earth's crust motion, footfall, local traffic, subways, etc. It makes sense to try to reduce or eliminate the external vibration. This is especially true for small signal cables such as tonearm wires and wires in preamps and so forth. While I can appreciate your New Age inclination to let the vibrations flow I'm afraid it's a little passé to let them flow instead of trying to curb them. Audio components and wires, cables are especially vulnerable to very low frequency vibration, the vibration between 0 Hz and say 20 or 30 Hz, the frequency is which are actually BELOW the frequency of acoustic waves produced by speakers. Hel-Loo! So, if someone doesn't have much luck with using certain damping material like say rubber or whatever, it would behoove him to tryng different t approach to damping. And if he hasn't had much luck with certain isolation devices or techniques, it would behoove him to try something else. There a right way and a wrong way to solve these problems. But to say they aren't problems is a little bit ridiculous in this day and age. He would be quite alone in a sea of audiophiles on this subject if he feels that vibrations are good for the sound,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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the audio code

Sound is Vibration, simple enough.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code

Thanks Geoff for giving this a bump!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Laen
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I don't disagree that sound

I don't disagree that sound is air movement/vibration/sound waves. But with the question at hand---a cd player that has no direct sound being blasted at it or has a less than stable rack, stand or cabinet. Saying a block of wood under his MArantz cd player blows him away! I just don't buy it. Now I use AQ Sorbothan disc under my Oppo 105D and honestly can hear no difference on my B&W 802Ds. I use them to elevate my BluRay and preamp so I can easily dust under them. It serves a purpose to me

geoffkait
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Vibration requires mass
Laen wrote:

I don't disagree that sound is air movement/vibration/sound waves. But with the question at hand---a cd player that has no direct sound being blasted at it or has a less than stable rack, stand or cabinet. Saying a block of wood under his MArantz cd player blows him away! I just don't buy it. Now I use AQ Sorbothan disc under my Oppo 105D and honestly can hear no difference on my B&W 802Ds. I use them to elevate my BluRay and preamp so I can easily dust under them. It serves a purpose to me

But that's not what Michael is saying. He's saying that the audio signals in wires and cables are vibration. And that's the basis for his not being a believer in vibration isolation or vibration damping for electronic components. Are you with me? I am pretty sure everyone in the world agrees that acoustic waves are vibration. It's because the air molecules have mass. Whereas the signal in wires and cables does not have mass. Follow?

As for why wood blocks might or might not work it depends on certain variables, but I wouldn't be very surprised if wood blocks were better than nothing but real vibration isolation would most likely improve upon the wood blocks.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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might be hard to buy

Hi Laen

It might be hard to buy at first until you start tuning, but if you would like to explore it further come over to TuneLand and we'll show you some tricks.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

CaptainVinyl1
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Obviously the difference I

Obviously the difference I heard was from vibration being controlled differently, which is what I tried to make clear. If wooden blocks can make no difference then a lot of idiots are paying big bucks for myrtle wood blocks from Cardas and others, the only difference being my wood blocks are not to the "Golden Ratio".

I know what I am hearing, and for whatever reason, (maybe the increased height and therefore better air circulation has something to with it) my CDs sound better than they did before

michael green
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I for one

Hi Captain

Who knows why some of these audiophiles get weirded out when others make discoveries, insecurity and ego blend I would assume, but I for one am hip on what you are doing, and excited you have found this chapter of your system tuning.

If you ever wish to come hang out with us on Tuneland where we are doing these "tunes" regularly and having fun, your more than welcome. I'm sure on TuneLand you will see the opposite reaction to your findings.

As I said, why audiophiles are so insecure the world may never know.

good luck, and most of all have fun exploring you music and system

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
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CaptainVinyl

Captain:

I am looking to do exactly the same..

Did you buy or build your blocks?

If so, *exactly* how did you build them or where did you buy them?

Thanks In Advance,

Ron

michael green
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Excellent!

Good move Ron!

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
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Beginner's Luck

mg:

I can assure you my choice to pursue this approach is just by luck more than acumen.

Kindly,

Ron

geoffkait
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I wuz in the isolation

I wuz in the isolation business exclusively for a long time when I first started. You know, with my sub Hertz platform. When you isolate something you hear much further into the sound. It's just a better signal, better signal to noise ratio. How sensitive was my single airspring platform? So sensitive you could hear the difference in sound when draping a fine silk scarf over the top plate. And you could hear the difference that buffering the air for the the tiny little air fitting from the auxiliary air canister to the airspring to prevent any air turbulence in the fitting during operation. You know the slight movement of the suspended top plate during operation. So anyway, from there it's rather easy to spot differences among the various footers, cones, that one must select from to support not only the iso stand but the component on the stand. It's not really a random process, but it takes time. Now, others are free to disagree, but my experience was that the NASA grade ceramic cones from Golden Sound beat everything else by quite a margin. Specifically the Super DH cones, the largest size with the ballistic tip as opposed to the Jumbo size which is also large but has a round tip. Both tips are hardwood floor friendly. The Medium and Small DH cones are very very good, too. The NASA grade ceramics are the next hardest material to diamond on the Moh scale. Speaking of diamonds, Shun Mook uses tiny ones for some of their feet, the Diamond Resonators. And because they the DH Cones are so hard and have the correct shape they evacuate/transfer energy with very high velocity. The Super DH Cones are dynamic and tonally correct and don't exhibit any funny side effects, unlike much of the competition. I find everything else to be a compromise in one way or another. And that's why I sold DH Cones as accessories for my iso stands back then. I also had a hardened steel spring based iso stand that also came with DH Cones. Now I sell the mini spring Isolators which is a more elegant iso solution that even the first two stands. The Cryo Baby springs are cryo'd tempered high carbon steel and provide 3 Hz performance. Kind of a no brainer.

For the true isolation fanatic I also design dual layer iso systems. Two heavy masses and two layers of springs. The more you have in the beginning the more you'll wind up with in the end.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Ex Deus Machina

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michael green
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springs are pretty cool

Yep springs can be pretty cool. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t74-mga-specialty-products

Having a nice audio closet is a good thing.

Cool thing about springs is they're all over the place and easy to experiment with. Took me a little while to find the right ones for the transfer range I like, and the right treating but it was a lot of fun getting there and I still sometimes make my own springs. Having a place make them for you if they'll follow spec (mg rolls eyes) is a challenge, but better than the time of making your own.

here's some of our other fun stuff
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t65-mga-cones
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t213-michael-green-s-tuning-blocks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Give me the right spring and I will isolate the world

Michael wrote,

"Cool thing about springs is they're all over the place and easy to experiment with. Took me a little while to find the right ones for the transfer range I like, and the right treating but it was a lot of fun getting there and I still sometimes make my own springs. Having a place make them for you if they'll follow spec (mg rolls eyes) is a challenge, but better than the time of making your own."

Nice to hear you're using vibration isolation in your design. Yes, the spring rates dictate the point at which isolation begins so much be specified for the specific application. My single airspring design, which is very difficult to actually build, you know, what with the floppiness of the rubber air spring, yields superior performance because the resonant frequency is obviously much lower for a platform with only one spring as opposed to say three or four, like three or four times lower. For isolating monsters like Verdier and Big VPI and Raven AC (see photo) 'tables I use many independent springs. My designs are modular and expandable. And because they're low profile, especially my new Mini springs, they have excellent lateral support so one can isolate heavy and even top heavy objects such as turntables with massive platters like the Raven AC in the photo. The Raven in photos is being isolated by my original Promethean isolation stand using multiple tempered steel springs and very heavy masses, in this case fine marble, not to mention the mass of the Raven.

Mass on spring systems, or Force on spring. F = MA so,,even if you use springs laterally between to masses the springs and the masses create the vibration isolation. And the isolation is simply the low pass mechanical filter produced by the spring and the force. Beautiful.

 photo photo_31_zpsnodpbc9k.jpg

 photo photo_32_zpsdpcxvar7.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Run silent, run deep

rrstesiak
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holy sh!t, Geoff

nice pics. They speak for themselves and are an excellent endorsement.

I also am quickly becoming a fan of this vibration isolation thing as both yours and Michael's recommendations have definitely helped elevate my Creek to new levels I thought impossible.

Keep up the good work,

Ron

geoffkait
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More advanced concepts, a tutorial - Stack 'em, don't rack 'em
rrstesiak wrote:

nice pics. They speak for themselves and are an excellent endorsement.

I also am quickly becoming a fan of this vibration isolation thing as both yours and Michael's recommendations have definitely helped elevate my Creek to new levels I thought impossible.

Keep up the good work,

Ron

Here's a article describing the LIGO Multi stage vertical filter stack, employing very heavy masses and damped springs. LIGO of course is the science project searching for gravity waves.

https://dcc-backup.ligo.org/public/0028/T960212/000/T960212-A.pdf

Give me the right spring and I'll isolate the world.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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Vibration

Hi Geoff

What part of that system is not vibrating?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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What part of the system is not vibrating

Well, if you read the article you'll find that the optics is the sensitive thing. You know since the laser beam must travel a long way down the tunnel to the optics then back again so any vibration of the optical mirror is verboten as it will change the direction of the return beam a bit and distort the image of the gravity wave or produce false images. Capish? Please note I didn't actually say there will be absolutely NO VIBRATION. But there will be VERY LITTLE VIBRATION. You know, what with the very low frequency performance of the LIGO vibration isolation system. The one they spent 20 years designing. Remember - the isolating system is a mechanical low pass filter. You do know what that is, right? The whole objective is to design a system that is as effective as possible for the extremely low Earth crust vibration that peaks around 1 or 2 Hz and other low frequency vibration sources. And THAT is the challenge. Let's say you designed an iso system with resonant frequency at 3 Hz. Then the iso system would allow the Earth's crust vibration that's less than 3 Hz to pass and be transmitted. At higher frequencies the filter becomes more complete so at 10 Hz only say 10% is transmitted. But if the resonant frequency is say below 1 Hz then the vibration with frequency at 10 Hz is only 2%. This is the most sensitive scientific experiment ever, or one of them.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramamine

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geoffkait
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New photo, LIGO optics

 photo photo_39_zpsbwsavq9v.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

michael green
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LIGO

Geoff said

"Please note I didn't actually say there will be absolutely NO VIBRATION"

mg

thank you, that's a start

So I see pics above of an audio system, that is using the same type of heavy material/spring combo that we all did back in the 80's. Most of us from that point moved on to other devices. Not saying the listener is not getting the results he or she wishes, just saying this is nothing even remotely new and for a lot of us a stepping stone to get to where we are today. I did the mass/isolation many moons ago and still do mass load rooms when required.

My point is this. The system you show above has zero to do with the pictures and technology you show below them. These R&D labs are built on specific foundations. Without them the results would be disaster.

earlier days in high end

Many moons ago when testing the spring/marble stands listeners found that they actually only worked ok if sitting on certain types of foundations below them. Building some of these foundations, we found that the units themselves were really not all that isolated.

An experiment anyone can try if they have the will to.

Buy one of these units or design your own and put them in place. Now, go down into your basement and place floor jacks under the rack (we did). You can hear the change in sound with the slightest of adjustment, proving these units are not isolating.

If you have the time to find them you will see many designs for building isolation floors. Are they true isolation floors? of course not. They're floors that allow for stable transfer from the Earth to the stands, towers and or buildings above. Fact is, you can make a fine tech looking audio stand, but it's an isolation device only by name. I'm not trying to turn anyone away from buying such an object but saying "isolation" is far from what is going on. Heavy audio equipment racks with bladders, springs, constrained layer dampening and all the other buzz words are just that "buzz words". If the audiophile knew what goes into true isolation devices they would probably look at many audio designers and give them a swift kick in the butt.

Now I'm not saying you as a listener have to go one way or another. I'm just trying to make you aware of the, excepted as truth, BS that goes on out there. High End Audio is litered with talk that is so far removed from reality that they build "must have" theories that quite frankly scew the hobby over. Listeners invest and go years down the road before they realize half of the music is gone, "where did it go". It went into the pockets of con-artist disguised as audio designers.

as a side note

The other day I was making a point about colors, no one got it. In fact I was told I was off topic lol. It was a thread on colored labels and I was off topic, go figure. Today we find ourselves on a thread about the flavor of wood under a component and it has been twisted into some type of weird isolation trip. I would have thought the OP would be the start to what wood can do for the hobby and a talk about what is going on with it "why & how" does it do what it does. Instead we once again find our way far away from the OP.

reel it in boys

lets make efforts to try to have threads that make sense

You want to talk about LIGO, start a thread on LIGO. Pratice what you preach guys!

one last comment

Mister Kait

I see you haven't had an in-room audio system or headphone system anymore using the theories you are pushing. You've basically said a sony cassette walkman out performs both your in-room and "isolated" high end headphone system. So what the heck are you doing on this thread? Are you setting your portable cassette player on a piece of wood and listening to it?

Geoff you need to start a category called "the portable cassette player forum". I picture a guy sitting there reading you talk about heavy isolation stands saying who is this guy talking isolation stands when his portable cassette player beats the snot out of his own isolation design.

Ron

"nice pics. They speak for themselves and are an excellent endorsement"

On this one Ron I would have to disagree with you. I'm the type of guy who looks at context. If I see a guy posting pics of a cool looking rack, telling this hi-tech story and then find out he dumped this in favor of a portable cassette player running off of double A batteries, with ear plugs, and the bass boost on....that to me speaks for itself. Sorry, but if I'm a serious audiophile, I have to look at the context and think as many others are "what the heck is going on here"?

You've said "all are welcome" pretty much, but you haven't gone back to your questioning of Mr. Kait on his papers concerning the intelligent chip.

I'm sorry but I have to add up all the little parts and pieces and judge things on a grading scale that covers the whole with someone who has so much to say on so many topics without even having the systems that allows him to be a practicing part of the topic.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Better lay off the firewater, Chief

Let me get this straight. You actually think mass loading is the same as vibration isolation? Well, no wonder you're having trouble following the discussion. You haven't been doing vibration isolation for many moons, Better lay off the firewater, Chief. Let me take a closer look at the rest of your jibber jabber and I'll get back to you.

Here's a good example of physics blather. Michael wrote,

"If you have the time to find them you will see many designs for building isolation floors. Are they true isolation floors? of course not. They're floors that allow for stable transfer from the Earth to the stands, towers and or buildings above. Fact is, you can make a fine tech looking audio stand, but it's an isolation device only by name. I'm not trying to turn anyone away from buying such an object but saying "isolation" is far from what is going on. Heavy audio equipment racks with bladders, springs, constrained layer dampening and all the other buzz words are just that "buzz words". If the audiophile knew what goes into true isolation devices they would probably look at many audio designers and give them a swift kick in the butt."

Apparently you can't see the forest for the trees. Buzz words? Are you sure you and Ethan Winer aren't the same person?

Michael also wrote,

"Now I'm not saying you as a listener have to go one way or another. I'm just trying to make you aware of the, excepted as truth, BS that goes on out there. High End Audio is litered with talk that is so far removed from reality that they build "must have" theories that quite frankly scew the hobby over. Listeners invest and go years down the road before they realize half of the music is gone, "where did it go". It went into the pockets of con-artist disguised as audio designers."

I'm pretty sure your latest ranting is supposed to indicate that you yourself a not like those other swine, those Cheats and Con Artists. Give me one product that you think is a fraud or con. Bet you can't. You're so full of it your eyes are brown.

Michael also wrote,

"The other day I was making a point about colors, no one got it. In fact I was told I was off topic lol. It was a thread on colored labels and I was off topic, go figure. Today we find ourselves on a thread about the flavor of wood under a component and it has been twisted into some type of weird isolation trip. I would have thought the OP would be the start to what wood can do for the hobby and a talk about what is going on with it "why & how" does it do what it does. Instead we once again find our way far away from the OP.

Ah, the age old question, Is is coupling or isolation? You probably never ever heard that question as you've been out of touch with reality out in the desert there or in Dayton for the last 30 years. Wake up, Rip Van Winkle, and smell the coffee! For your information there's only one audiophile here with attitude and that's me.

And finally this Beaty from Mister Green,

Mister Kait

I see you haven't had an in-room audio system or headphone system anymore using the theories you are pushing. You've basically said a sony cassette walkman out performs both your in-room and "isolated" high end headphone system. So what the heck are you doing on this thread? Are you setting your portable cassette player on a piece of wood and listening to it?

Huh? I never claimed the portable cassette player outperformed my previous systems. You did. That because your memory is either shot or you're a big fat liar. I use the portable cassette system as an example of how shitty CS sound in comparison. I know that statement will upset you. So be it. Lol

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of something something something something.

They wouldn't call concepts advanced if everyone knew about them. - old audiophile axiom

I said it would be fun but I didn't say for who.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Concepts

michael green
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I apologize

I apologize to the readers and OP for Geoff Kait and his continual trolling.

Seems he's upset....again!

I stand by my last post, and leave the spins up to him. If any of you have questions about my posts, let me know. As far as geoff lol, well you know. Same stories, different forum.

Now if we can return to talking about the success you guys are having with tuning.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
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re: mg

Michael:

I need to correct you here. Above, taken from your post, you said:

michael green wrote:

…..

Ron
…..

You've said "all are welcome" pretty much, but you haven't gone back to your questioning of Mr. Kait on his papers concerning the intelligent chip.
….

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net

I did in fact consider my discussion with Geoff closed when I posted the following(again, just part of the quote to get to the point):

rrstesiak wrote:

…..
I'll just cut to the chase and conclude, from a scientific perspective, I would politely state my findings are inconclusive to reveal any effectiveness of said gadget.

Regards,

Ron

And that was only after a considerably long discussion on the Schumann thread. I found that I had gotten all the information I could from Geoff, and respectfully made my conclusion based on what information was provided. I’m certainly not going to chase the gentleman down any further. He shared what he was willing to. And I again consider the issue closed while maintaining a friendly decorum.

If this were a scientific journal, things maybe would be different. But this is Stereophile.. remember the audience. So I backed off the science and now wish to continue; here as well, with audio-related discussion.

On a different note, why the disagreement to Geoff's posts of an obviously pretty serious vinyl system utilizing his springs? I thought it was pretty cool. I think you are letting your long running debates with Geoff cloud your positive thinking..just let the man receive a compliment. I'm not sure why the two of you battle it out so much, but please leave me out of the battles but included in audio-related discussion.

I can't repeat enough that I wish to keep things on an overall positive keel and enjoy sharing systems and the music we play on them together and I am for one amazed at the variety of systems and good people on this forum.

Respectfully,

Ron

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Intelligent Chip bashing comments accepted

Ron, wouldn't be the first time a theoretical physics dude gave the cold shoulder to Mr. Chip. It was ten years ago on the very pages of Stereophile magazine that Jim Austin, the other JA and all around good guy and theoretical physics dude gave me quite a thrashing. See Chips for Chumps at

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/505awsi/index.html

Then, there was a rebuttal letter to Chips for Chumps you can find here:

http://forum.stereophile.com/content/chips-chumps-letters-july-2005

Heck, even Altewischer, a theoretical physicist of some note whose quantum superposition experiment I mention in my paper, supposedly turned his nose up at the whole idea when confronted with Mr. Chip by one of my detractors who lived in Belgium, IIRC, at the time. So if you wish to bash Mr. Chip, get in line, buddy. I guess I must be smarter than Altewischer. Lol

No wonder new ideas take so long to get recognized by the scientific community. They jump all over anything new like ducks on a June bug. Lol

And just between you and me, what with all the hoopla over the enigmatic Mr. Chip, heck, it wasn't even my chip. See the irony? ;-)

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We do Artificial Atoms Right

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response to Ron

Hi Ron

A listener comes to the forum and says "hey guys I'm a believer". "I put wood under my component and it opened up a new door of listening for me". "Instruments sounded more like....instrument". A couple guys come up and say, can't be so (obviously never tried it) . But the good news is some start to come up and support the claim (obviously people who are doing it) and are ready to share in the excitement and the developing of these findings and experience along these lines. Then out of the blue, a guy (geoff) comes up and says that's not what happened. He hi-jacks the thread and starts to promote his anti-vibration campaign with no regard as to the OP.

He then shows a picture of a huge piece of marble. I don't know about you, but everyone I know that has listened to a big piece of marble in the long run says their music sounds like a big piece of marble. Now if geoff wanted to start a thread on a big piece of marble and how it sounds, I would recommend doing so and stop using threads as off topic spins.

Ron you said

"I can't repeat enough that I wish to keep things on an overall positive keel and enjoy sharing systems and the music we play on them together and I am for one amazed at the variety of systems and good people on this forum."

Which I think is great, so lets start organizing this thing so it starts to make sense. Throwing all this stuff about labs doing isolation on a grand scale has what reference to the OP voicing the sound of his system with the same type of materials that are actually used in instruments? Is your guitar made out of a huge slab of marble?

If you & geoff want to start a thread on all the different types of systems that's wonderful. A debate on what is isolation, that's cool to. But this thread should not end up with you and I talking about geoff and cool looking pieces of marble, which frankie I have built and own and know exactly what they do and what they sound like, and my friend this is a completely different topic.

thanks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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A big piece of marble

Michael wrote,

"He then shows a picture of a huge piece of marble. I don't know about you, but everyone I know that has listened to a big piece of marble in the long run says their music sounds like a big piece of marble. Now if geoff wanted to start a thread on a big piece of marble and how it sounds, I would recommend doing so and stop using threads as off topic spins."

Well, the reason you actually believe that, I mean aside from the fact it's second hand information, is because you really have no idea in the world how isolation systems work. The marble slab won't ring because the isolation system attenuates the crap out of vibration that would otherwise excite the marble. Besides, do you have any idea how much energy would be required to make a fifty pound slab of marble ring? Materials like marble and granite as long as they are sufficiently thick make excellent top and bottom plates for my isolation system. Vibraplane uses a big old 100 lb slab of steel for ballast and your audiophile buds would most like turn their noses up at steel, too, right? But the ballast is suspended from the Vibraplane top plate so, on e again, it's isolated.

Cheerios,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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and here we go Ron

"Ron, wouldn't be the first time a theoretical physics dude gave the cold shoulder to Mr. Chip. It was ten years ago on the very pages of Stereophile magazine that Jim Austin, the other JA and all around good guy and theoretical physics dude gave me quite a thrashing. See Chips for Chumps at

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/505awsi/index.html

Then, there was a rebuttal letter to Chips for Chumps you can find here:

http://forum.stereophile.com/content/chips-chumps-letters-july-2005

Heck, even Altewischer, a theoretical physicist of some note whose quantum superposition experiment I mention in my paper, supposedly turned his nose up at the whole idea when confronted with Mr. Chip by one of my detractors who lived in Belgium, IIRC, at the time. So if you wish to bash Mr. Chip, get in line, buddy. I guess I must be smarter than Altewischer. Lol

No wonder new ideas take so long to get recognized by the scientific community. They jump all over anything new like ducks on a June bug. Lol

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We do Artificial Atoms Right"

You see Ron, geoff can't help himself. Doesn't matter you, me, costin, toledo, ChrisS and probably hundreds who have other opinions and studies. Geoff is the type of guy who will find a way to fan the flames. It's not about listening to him and the quicker you get that the better it will be for you. You want to enter his mad world of spins go for it.

My thought on this is to call him out and keep doing it till the inevitable happens.

Here's the other reason MGA/RoomTune is offended by being put in the same camp, or any where near the Geoff camp. We don't design or produce anything remotely near "Snake Oil". While geoff lays out his attacks he knows darn well MGA/RoomTune has always been one of the forerunners in innovation and that just kills him for some reason. He would rather start a fight, call all kinds of names, disrupt any intellectual stimulation, and burn anyone (including you) to the ground that gets to close to his game.

Ron, geoff lives for the war, cause he is not the inventor, there is no factory and there probably was no shippment to this client that gave the rave on the stickers.

As you asked for proof, you will never be let off the hook, cause this is not how Mr. Kait operates. He is a take no prisoner troll.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Pardon me?

Michael wrote,

"Ron, geoff lives for the war, cause he is not the inventor, there is no factory and there probably was no shippment to this client that gave the rave on the stickers."

Huh? Have you been smoking crack? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Michael also opined,

"My thought on this is to call him out and keep doing it till the inevitable happens."

The inevitable happens? What on Earth are you muttering about now?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Your Demons Show Up, Geoffy!

"The Drunkard's Walk"

Just sitting back and observing how you respond to everyone here should indicate this pattern.

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OK, to recap: It's the concept, stupid!

Actually, to be fair about this, I was on topic. The OP subject was vibration control. I don't even know why I have to remind everyone. The OP started off,

"Though I always accepted the fact that speakers and turntables would benefit from vibration control, I was hesitant to believe that it would make a difference with a cd player. But just for kicks, I took three small wooden blocks, each 3/4" x 3/4" x 1 1/2", and placed them under my Marantz Universal Player that I had purchased used a couple of years back."

Michael wrote yesterday,

"Which I think is great, so lets start organizing this thing so it starts to make sense. Throwing all this stuff about labs doing isolation on a grand scale has what reference to the OP voicing the sound of his system with the same type of materials that are actually used in instruments? Is your guitar made out of a huge slab of marble?"

When Michael says, "let's organize this thing so it starts to make sense," you can bet your bottom dollar that what's next not only won't make sense it be some sort of tuning is the only way to get good sound rant. And that everything else comes from con artists. It was actually Michael who tried to swing the whole discussion over to Tuning and away from vibration control and vibration isolation. Suddenly a discussion of vibration control becomes another Tuning rant. As is damping, constrained layer damping and vibration isolation are fraudulent technologies. In fact, that is EXACTLY what Michael said. I implore you, how can one person be so misguided?! So, regardless of his very convincing Hey, I'm the victim here! and the old fuming and frothing at the mouth routine it was actually Michael who attempted to hijack this thread by going on another one of his Holy Crusades against me personally. I simply was showing how far you can go in this endeavor, which is very far, much a farther than with some little alphabet blocks. That's why I brought up LIGO, the most sensitive science experiment in history, why I bring up springs, my springs. Ya know, Michael is very proud of the couple of technical courses he took. And I say, good for you, Jack! But I have a degree in the subject and went way beyond little alphabet blocks in experience. It's the concept, stupid! All the digging up the dirt, name calling, bad memory, a convenient memory, making false allegations, lying, mischaracterizations cannot hide the fact you just can't keep up with the discussion. I suggest you drop out now while you can still save some of that pretty face.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Michael, curb your dog!

ChrisS wrote,

"Your Demons Show Up, Geoffy!
"The Drunkard's Walk"

Just sitting back and observing how you respond to everyone here should indicate this pattern."

Small dog syndrome. ;-)

 photo photo_41_zpswf3vkdsk.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Clarity to Geoff & Michael

Geoff:

I only brought up my replies again to your chip to correct a post Michael had made claiming I had not sufficiently pursued the matter. I apologize for bringing it up again and my intent was certainly not to "chip bash" again, but merely to show I considered the matter closed; and that any further pursuit on the topic I would deem as harassment towards you from me. You shared what you felt comfortable sharing. And we both walked away from the debate with no hurt feelings. That's the way I like it.

The only time you appeared slightly offended, in fact, was when Michael brought it up again in this thread and I had to reply to correct his assertion that I had in fact not sufficiently dialogued with you regarding the topic.

Respectfully,

Ron

Michael:

I really do respect your work and the ideas you share on these forums. My replies to many threads should also echo and reinforce that statement.

However, please do not try to bait me into getting into conflicts with other members. That's just not my style. If you are not sure what I am referring to, here is a partial quote you wrote earlier:

michael green wrote:


You see Ron, geoff can't help himself. Doesn't matter you, me, costin, toledo, ChrisS and probably hundreds who have other opinions and studies. Geoff is the type of guy who will find a way to fan the flames. It's not about listening to him and the quicker you get that the better it will be for you. You want to enter his mad world of spins go for it.

My thought on this is to call him out and keep doing it till the inevitable happens.
….

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net

To beat what is now a dead horse, if I sense another member has volunteered as much as they feel comfortable volunteering, I will cease questioning and render my best opinion on whatever information was given. As I am hoping most people would.

Now like me, I sense you can be a sensitive person and so I ask that you please also see in my replies I am not intending to bash or hurt you in any way either; I am merely explaining the style to which I debate and get information from other people and that I respect their limits when I sense them.

Respectfully,

Ron

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Back to the OP Topic

All:

I actually already had the idea of literally buying a set of children's building blocks to use underneath my equipment.

The wood, purely going from memory, seems like pine or some light wood... and I think they have raised sides...anyway..we all can probably pull up a mental image of child's building blocks..

Would those seriously be a cheap and easy way to help with isolation/vibration damping? Or are they unsuitable?

I am not joking and looking for serious feedback --

Captain:

I think my request for your source for your blocks got lost in the thread... could you provide where you got your blocks; or if you made them, what type of wood was used and if you treated the wood with veneer or oil or some other finish?

Respectfully,

Ron

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Wood blocks, back on topic!

There have been many wood blocks in audio, or wood discs or wood rollers, myrtle blocks from was it Ayre? ebony discs form Shun Mook. Did you happen to,catch a load of the photo I posted yesterday here on this very forum, Spot the Shun Mook Mpingo discs? I am a huge fan of a Shun Mook and met them at CES way back when I was exhibiting with Mapleshade Recording Studio. I recall being a little bit embarrassed because we were using a couple of knock offs in the room on the floor and I was worried the Mook dudes would notice they were knock offs. They never said anything so I guess not. Even one Mpingo disc in the room can be transformative, the trick is to find the location where the big effect is heard. If you like trial and error and I suspect you do you'll love these things. Shun Mook also made Diamond Resonators with diamond tips on large ebony discs for audio feet. If you want to experiment with how different woods affect the sound go to a hardwood store and pick up those samples of different woods, rosewood, ebony, snake wood, maple, what have you, about 1x1x12" sticks and try them in various places around the room, use your imagination, lean them up against the rear wall, on top of components, etc.

 photo photo_42_zpsdjfm2qka.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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sorry

Hi Ron

Sorry you saw this as a bait.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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back to the point

Thank you geoff,

This is now heading in the direction that I feel at least is more in line with the OP.

Ron, my response to you was simply based on respect and teaching you a lesson. There is not a geoff/mg war and if you make it look like one, then you will be pulled into it as a participant. Please try to keep from getting in the middle and taking on the role of peace maker. If you wish to do this for yourself that's all great and appreciated for all of us, but when you make this into a michael/geoff thing it's giving too much credit to something that needs defused outside of a mg/gk title match.

I hope you can see what I'm saying. There's a reason why ChrisS, myself and others have tried to calm geoff down. We understand your coming from a good place and in a perfect world this would be great, we would all be happy, holding hands and heading in the same direction, just as you see on TuneLand. Guys on TuneLand realize their systems are unique, recordings are all different, systems should be flexible, and all of us have different ears and conditions. We don't subscribe to total isolation as a good thing, and don't want to be mixed in with those who have this limited view.

Ron, there are different levels to this hobby and not to be rude, but if tuning is thrown back to the level of isolation being an equal it's like starting all over again, and we are here to move things forward from some of these points. In that respect there will be a certain amount of friction between those who have not yet tuned and those who have been variably tuning for a while. So it's not all about a fight, but more of a plea for order and the spanking of those who wish to spend their time stiring a pot vs listening to music and growing.

This is the second time, I'm jumping on you a little. I hope you see this as a constructive move, but if not we at least hope you are sensitive to our work here, and the pains we have made to convey a message while having to deal with unecessary spins.

michael green
MGA/RoonTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Message to ALL

All:

My goals are right here; as I have stated and not wavered from, and can be summarized to the following:

1. share my enjoyment and learning of audio/music with others
2. this is America: Freedom of Speech. Each person has their right to their opinion and to speak.
3. It is never my intent to bully or otherwise harass or upset *anyone*
4. did I say enjoying music is my main goal here?

I in fact do NOT support Michael Green's way. I also do NOT support Geoff Kait's way. I do not support any single person's way. With maybe the exception of Dr. Feynman. But that is for a different audience.

A shock?

No... just a re-phrasing. In a way, I support *everyone's* way. I like to take pieces from each that help MY particular room and system, then I share my findings here. I learn by DOING. and when I learn, I SHARE.

i do NOT prescribe to any single person they have "All the answers". Nor am I saying anyone is stating they do. I again just take what to MY ears are excellent elements from all and apply any that are applicable and report the findings.

My posts back up what I preach.

Michael, If you find some need to "jump on me a little", I fear I am missing the point you are trying to make or please tell me how I have offended you and I will most likely render an apology if I have offended!

As you yourself pointed out and to paraphrase: my goal IS in fact to NOT rock the boat and to make friends and hear differing views. Is that so bad?

What I am fearing is happening is one person monopolizing the community with their way. And if anyone gets in their way, that person sees to it to make them no longer feel welcome. That would be horrible. And soon, it would just be one person's board. Pretty boring and very un-American in my tastes. Is that what we all want? To borrow your strong use of WE?

If everyone wants just ONE person calling all the shots; judging what is "right" and "acceptable", then I am definitely in the wrong place. I don't think that is the message Stereophile wishes to convey to its subscribers though.

Instead, and my belief system listed in black and white at the top of this thread shouts this: I support MULTIPLE views and multiple opinions.. again.. our basic constitutional right to Freedom of Speech. Take that away, and you'll quickly have nothing left but the sound of your own voice.

Anyway... Let's just air out whatever specific grievance there is so that we can all get back to:

Enjoying the music.

Respectfully,

Ron

ps. After having thought this over considerably, in enforcing my beliefs #2 &#3, I my have inadvertently caused more harm than good in playing the difficult role of "Peace Keeper". That is in fact a very hard role to fill and one I sadly see lacking and tried to fill. But I may have in fact accidentally caused more harm than good in a few cases and will no longer attempt at resolving any conflicts outside of my own.

With that note, I would like to resolve this only conflict I have had to my knowledge here with Michael in what I hope to be an amicable fashion.

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Funniest post of the week. The winner is.....

Michael is the winner of the coveted Laughing Goat award for this priceless paragraph. Keep the laughs coming, Michael. You missed your calling.

"I hope you can see what I'm saying. There's a reason why ChrisS, myself and others have tried to calm geoff down. We understand your coming from a good place and in a perfect world this would be great, we would all be happy, holding hands and heading in the same direction, just as you see on TuneLand. Guys on TuneLand realize their systems are unique, recordings are all different, systems should be flexible, and all of us have different ears and conditions. We don't subscribe to total isolation as a good thing, and don't want to be mixed in with those who have this limited view."

I especially like your keen observation, "we don't subscribe to total isolation as a good thing." That's gold!! Gold, I tell you. Do you write these yourself? Hahaahahaha. But seriously, am pretty sure you have some sort of learning disability, whether it be dyslexia, reading comprehension failure, or attention deficit disorder. Please seek help.

 photo photo_43_zpst9lpkj3a.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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Your doing fine Ron!

Hi Ron

Your doing fine, but as you can see as in the above, geoff will take every opportunity to spit on the hobby and it's members with classless spins, pictures and remarks. This is something you nore anyone is going to bend into fitting within the guidelines of a classy place, which most of the listening community seek to enjoy.

My basic problem (and it's not with you) is I don't wish to associate with internet trolls, which is what the above post represents. I'm not trying to put you in any camp. What I'm trying to do is keep away or even put away the classless representations that bring this hobby down, and make it less attractive to the listening public. I don't think it's anything to be all that concerned about, more than it's a factor that has haunted this and many other forums.

In other words we shouldn't have to say "lets get back on topic" every 3rd or 4th post, and we shouldn't have 3 good post followed by spins of 5 or so attempting to get back on track post.

here's what internet trolling is

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

this

"Michael is the winner of the coveted Laughing Goat award for this priceless paragraph. Keep the laughs coming, Michael. You missed your calling.

"I hope you can see what I'm saying. There's a reason why ChrisS, myself and others have tried to calm geoff down. We understand your coming from a good place and in a perfect world this would be great, we would all be happy, holding hands and heading in the same direction, just as you see on TuneLand. Guys on TuneLand realize their systems are unique, recordings are all different, systems should be flexible, and all of us have different ears and conditions. We don't subscribe to total isolation as a good thing, and don't want to be mixed in with those who have this limited view."

I especially like your keen observation, "we don't subscribe to total isolation as a good thing." That's gold!! Gold, I tell you. Do you write these yourself? Hahaahahaha. But seriously, am pretty sure you have some sort of learning disability, whether it be dyslexia, reading comprehension failure, or attention deficit disorder. Please seek help."

and the goat pic, is nothing more than a troll

My points are simple and to the point, and most of the time direct quotes. As you or anyone read through these pages you or I or they should not have to suffer trolling. This is when I jump in and say, lets all grow up and move forward, and I'm sure is your intent as well. The trick is how do we make a friendly well informed place of discussion in the midst of trolling? We have asked the moderators to assist and they have decided not to.

So for me and others the question is, do I stay on these forums and put up with goat pics and insults a fly, or do we once in a while slap geoff. Your approach is not to discipline, and that's great for the first 6 months, but when those months turn to years, it's time to look at another approach.

Ron you have not made it worse, your just jumping in mid-stream on something geoff has been doing for 20 some years, thus gaining him a certain reputation of war over peace.

No biggie, but it is an interesting learning curve to come to what you would think would be a thoughtful forum to find pics of goats and all kinds of childish pics and behavior. But Ron this is not you, and you shouldn't feel bad, or take the hit for something that has gone on for a very long time. The only place where I see you and I disagreeing is the topic of, to or not to, spank the baby, or maybe even me seeing what the baby is doing and you not seeing the harm in it.

It's like this

When you or anyone goes to the tops of these pages and does a quick scroll as an audiophile, what do we see? Forget the content for a minute, just scroll.

What we see is trolling. Stupid animal pics and off topic pics of labs that are way far away from a marble and spring rack. If I read down through this there is no way I want to be apart of that hobby! Take a look at almost all these threads and their MO's. Just scroll through them. Now pick up your stereophile mag and see if you see all these cartoons and classless flames? I for one can not picture JGH or HP being very honored.

Debates, fine and dandy, disagreements no problem, trolling sorry not acceptable!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Stupid animal pics

Stupid animal pics? I thought everyone like stupid animal pics. What's up with that? Oh, I get it. Your sense of humor has abandoned you once again. You think this is some sort of fight to the death and that have to win every little skirmish. See, your problem is and I'm not a psychologist, so this is just my personal opinion, you simply will have to have to the last word. You know, the guy with the most posts and the longest posts doesn't necessarily win by default. And you always have to have things your way. With the exception of when it becomes obvious you were wrong on some point or another then you'll try to backfill and pretend that the correct position was yours all along. A nice strategy if you don't mind being called out for it, you know, not everyone has a bad memory like you. Mine is near photographic in case you were wondering how that son of a bitch remembers all this shit. The other obvious problem, again I'm not a psychologist, is you aren't satisfied with what you have achieved here and simply have to dominate very single freaking thread. Whatever arrangement you might have thought you had with Toledo is long gone, my fluffy haired friend. And to pee all over other threads that frankly have little to do with you. That's just plain rude and immature but the main problem I actually have with you, since it's best to get this out on the table right. It's the slowness with which you change your tune. I'm not sure why, whether it's a learning disability or whatever. There's something wrong somewhere and most likely a team of deprogrammers would be required. I'm pretty sure David Karesh, L. Ron Hubbard and even the dude in Guyana Jim what's his name were quite convincing articulate and charismatic, too. And I'm not looking for a rebuttal just STFU for a change.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

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I think I owe everyone an apology

OK, everyone is probably wondering why did I come down so hard on the long suffering Michael Green in my recent post, the one with the laughing goat. Fair enough. The reason why is because of this simple statement of his just prior to my going ape shit on him,

"We don't subscribe to total isolation as a good thing, and don't want to be mixed in with those who have this limited view."

See how his belief or at least what he feels it's SAFE to SAY with respect to vibration isolation has been modified considerably since the days what eight months ago or whatever when he was solidly against ANY vibration isolation, as it were the work of the devil, along with damping, constrained layer damping, anything to impede, stop, attenuate, modify, distort, discombobulate the flow of the natural vibrations in the room, both in the components, in the air and from one object or component to another, etc. So we have on one hand someone who has obviously modified his position on the whole subject of vibration isolation by stating, "We don't subscribe to TOTAL ISOLATION..." That appear to leave a lot of wiggle room for the Tune Meister to uh wiggle through. I suspect he adds, ".. And don't want to be mixed in with those that do" to reinforce the whole idea that Michael Green is somewhat of a Know-it-All. And I mean that in the pejorative sense of the word.

Of course, the other disturbing he illuminates with that statement is that he obviously doesn't pay very close attention to what I wrote, one assumes because he either has poor reading comprehension or is in a state of denial with respect to the while isolation vs tuning debate. I personally suspect a combination of all of the above. Now, anyone who has been following me at all during the past year is so here has seen many posts of mine on the dodgy subject of vibration isolation. And if there is one single thing I state over and over it's that vibration isolation is not perfect, never. Not even for LIGO - which has taken twenty years and some of the best minds in the world on the subject of isolation - doesn't achieve perfect, TOTAL isolation.

The techniques and there are many different techniques all fall short since they are simply low pass filters. In other words they ATTENUATE the strength of the vibration according to frequency according to the resonant frequency of the isolating system. Thus, anyone like Michael who claims he doesn't advocate total isolation is ignorant of what isolation is all about. The conclusion we can make with respect to vibration isolation systems for audio is that the better the iso system the better the sound. I.e., the only good vibration is a dead vibration! The most technically challenging aspect of vibration isolation is the extremely low frequency vibration coming up from the floor, the stuff around 0 to 20 Hz. Below what even huge systems are capable of producing in the room. Not to mention that airborne vibrations can be much more easily address using room absorbers, diffusers, damping for all manner of things, the walls, power cord plugs, you name it. And we haven't even talked about the bending and twisting forces that are also acting on the various things in the audio system and that should be addressed by isolation techniques just like the vibration that has a VERTICAL DIRECTION. More on this later.

Finally, dear misunderstood Michael, if you are using springs in your system, and I'm sure you are because you told me you were, you're isolating. Don't freak out on me now. ;-) and isolation is fixed. It's fixed by the transfer function of the mass-spring combination you are using, whether you're conscious of it or not. To repeat, WHETHER YOU'RE CONSCIOUS OF IT OR NOT.

Cheerios,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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misunderstood michael

Hi Geoff

If these ideas are what you think and what you base your listening on, that's cool with me and I'm sure the others.

I hope in the future you can give real time demos of what you talk about so we can see the results from more than words. It's one of those industries where the walk is as important as the talk.

have a great weekend

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Don't patronize me

If you don't have anything to say on the subject of any substance and if you wish to remain somewhat in my good graces I urge you to put a sock in it. All this walk the walk bullshit is wearing thin, since it's actually you who have not walked the walk with respect to vibration isolation. From what I can gather you don't have the foggiest idea what vibration isolation even is. So stop posing as some sort of expert on the subject. We've already got an expert.

The deeper you go the higher your fly
The higher you fly the deeper you go

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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wearing thin & being an expert

How on Earth could listening to music with your follow listeners be wearing you thin?

I don't have any control over your graces, good or bad, geoff. I'm pretty sure an 80 year old man should know how to control his own thoughts and actions.

I'm simply expressing my joy that we are starting to do some listening on the stereophile forum and as a result respect is being handed out. Your invited to demo your portable systems and music with the rest of us, and with this I hope it turns a corner on people's understanding how they come to their conclusions on audio issues.

as far as expert

"An expert is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of technique or skill whose faculty for judging or deciding rightly, justly, or wisely is accorded authority and status by peers or the public in a specific well-distinguished domain. An expert, more generally, is a person with extensive knowledge or ability based on research, experience, or occupation and in a particular area of study. Experts are called in for advice on their respective subject."

and

"Experts have a prolonged or intense experience through practice and education in a particular field."

You can't just call yourself an expert geoff. Experts engage in long practice studies. In the audio biz for example you could call yourself a former expert on listening to in-room systems if you have the requirements as stated above. I haven't read this about you so I wouldn't know. I've read you were a dealer of some products and see other products on your site, but wouldn't know if you are considered an expert by your peers or not.

I see that you took up portable walkman players a year ago, but I'm not sure that would make you an expert in that field in such a short time. By reading your thread in headphones, I wouldn't call you an expert in soundstaging. On the topic of intelligent chips, I haven't seen any papers, R&D or peer support that would make you an expert.

On isolation, I don't see any schooling or knowledge of building engineering or examples of structures made and used from the ground up, so I'm not sure anyone would see you as an expert in this area.

I do see you as an audiophile figure that has gained a certain reputation in forum exchanges, and someone who gives advice on topics that might be helpful for newbies, or those who like trying tweaks that are considered outside the norm in audio. Colored pens, and printed labels on stuff, freezing things and stuff like that, but I'm not sure if this makes you an expert or not.

Maybe you should supply us with a list of your projects and references.

As for myself I would refer people to http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ to answer the question if I am or not. Which ever way that falls I've enjoyed being in on quite a few audio related projects.

Geoff, I don't know if you get hired on projects or not. I know I do and those interested can see if they wish. Again a list would help geoff concerning your background and expertise. I also don't want to marginalize your work, but honestly I haven't seen much of it.

hope this helps

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Blah blah and more blah

Meaningless drivel from the drivel expert. Stop making all of the threads here into self promotion billboards and stop obsessing about me. Try taking a long cold shower. Feel better. If you'd spend the same amount of time in your local library boning up on vibration isolation that you spend name calling and speculating about my experience you might be able to have an actual conversation on the subject, you know, instead of just flapping your gums. The problem I seem to have when discussing technical matters such as vibration isolation with you is your eyes glaze over and you never seem to understand ANYTHING. You just give me a lot of lip. Must be your old Dayton education system backing up on you again. It's the old Backfire Effect in action. You're the poster boy for the Backfire Effect. The more someone ties to get through that thick membrane the more you cling to your old ideas and the more and more convinced you become that you MUST have been right all along. Or just continue the sure fire Tuning nonsense gambit. Finally, on a more healing note, as much as I actually enjoy your little tirades and hissy fits have you given any consideration to some sort of medical intervention, say Valium or Thorazine?

"Never get behind anyone 100%." - Bob Beatty, my old Boss at NASA

"Never memorize anything you can look up." - A. Einstein

"The harder they come the harder they fall." - Jimmy Cliff

"Never give a sucker an even break." - PT Barnum

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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proof is in the listening

It's been fun working on systems this weekend. For those who haven't checked out what the MGA Low Tone Redwood Blocks are that May mentions, you can visit the product page. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t213-mga-tuning-blocks

Don't forget to register for our Give-A-Ways which will be happening all Summer long.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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