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I vehemently disagree with you but this is a great column; the best you've written in a long time.
You're best when you have a) news to report (the quotes) and passion. Please keep it up.
On this page in Stereophile's December 2023 issue, contributing editor (and mastering engineer) Tom Fine and I described a press event at which Apple Corps (the Beatles umbrella corporation) presented the news about the (at the time) forthcoming new Beatles single and the forthcoming "remixed" reissues of the "Red" and "Blue" Beatles compilations. Tom attended the eventwhich, notably, was held at Dolby headquarters here in New York City, reflecting, apparently, Apple Corps' interest in Dolby Atmos. At the event, demos were presented in the Atmos format onlyno stereo.
A key point of that column was that Apple Corps, at leastand who knows how many others in the music industryare abandoning high-quality Atmos in favor of that streamed by Apple Music. Tom and I criticized this development in no uncertain terms, concluding that if Apple's lossy-compressed version of Dolby Atmos is what we're being offered, "we should hope for its demise."
Were we too harsh? I asked an expert.
Far and away the most common distribution method for Dolby Atmos music is streaming, mainly via Apple Music. That Dolby Atmos, though, is lossy-compressed, to 768kbps. Note that that's the total bitrate and not the per-channel bitrate, and this form of Atmos supports up to 128 virtual channels. That's in contrast to the version of Atmos typically provided in "deluxe" Blu-ray packages: the "TrueHD" form.
At the event, Tom asked Apple Corps CEO Jeff Jones whether Beatles music would be made available in a better immersive form, perhaps on a Blu-ray disc, as it had been on some earlier "remixed" Beatles albums. His response: The streaming version of Atmos "made the Blu-ray obsolete." Why? Because that Blu-ray disc raises prices, and "very few consumers care."
That's probably true. Unfortunately, Stereophile's readers (and writers) are precisely those "very few consumers."
How widely Jones's opinion is shared in the industry is, of course, unknown. I fear that it is widespread, if only because we've seen (and heard) this before: The industry has long felt secure appealing to the undemanding center. The development of widespread lossless and hi-rez music streaming (in stereo) was a very welcome surprise.
As I write this, the December Stereophile hasn't been out that long, but the opinion we expressed has already proved controversial. Some perceived it as a "get off my lawn"type judgment on immersive audio generally, or even of multichannel music, which of course it was not. One prominent audio engineer, who has worked on a lot of hit records, said he thought we were wrong on the factsthat Apple's Dolby Atmos is not in fact lossy (how could he not know that?), but that even if we were right, it didn't matter, because the work of those wonderful recording engineers (including, presumably, the ones who don't understand the format's technical limitations) would render any lossiness moot.
It's true that our argument had a vulnerability. Ultimately the proof is in the listening, and I've never heard Apple's lossy Atmos on a really high-quality system. In stereo, 768kbps is an impressive bitrate; it would be difficult to differentiate from full CD-rez. Maybejust maybeit is good enough for Dolby Atmos, despite its being a profoundly multichannel format.
Morten Lindberg is the producer and recording engineer for Norwegian music label 2L. He has been nominated for 35 Grammy Awards and won one, in 2020, for Best Immersive Audio Album. Nominations continue to roll in.
2L is notable for its commitment to astonishing musical and technical standards. On the technical side, Lindberg records in 24/352.8, in 12 channels: 7.1.4 (footnote 1). That resolution is preserved throughout editing, mixing, and mastering. What happens after that depends on the distribution formatand 2L offers the widest selection of distribution formats of any label I'm aware of, all the way up to 12-channel 24/352.8.
Importantly, for my purposes, 2L offers Atmos downloads in two forms: the lossless "TrueHD" format Tom and I praised and what 2L calls "Dolby Atmos in MP4 file."
Every recent 2L release, then, is available in both the highest-quality lossless Atmos and (as I confirmed) a lossy Atmos version identical to what Apple Music streams.
I asked how Dolby Atmos files are made. "I don't mix for a codec," Lindberg told me in an email interview. "I record for a playback environment. Any codec should then ideally provide for a transparent transport to the consumer. Our immersive workflow is totally independent of destination format." "Our 7.1.4 channel-based master"which as noted is 24/352.8"is then mapped to eight bed channels, and the four height channels are defined as static objects. Creating the Dolby Atmos Master ADM (Audio Definition Model) is simply a matter of implementing the metadata and converting sample rate to 48kHz." Though a factor of 7.35 smaller than the original source, "the resolution at this point is still uncompressed linear PCM, in discrete channels. The ADM is encoded to MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) for Dolby Atmos in Dolby TrueHD as you find on our Pure Audio Blu-ray and in the MKV container.
"The ADM is our delivery format to the aggregators for the consumer services. Unfortunately, the services currently reduce the resolution by perceptual encoding compressing 10:1, very much like MP3. Tidal make two paths; for binaural on mobile devices for headphones they use AC4-IMS"that's a binaural codec, not multichannel, something I had misunderstood"and for speaker environments they go with DD+JOC"what's commonly referred to as Dolby Digital Plus with Dolby Atmos. "Apple Music stays with the latter codec for both speakers and its special headphone virtualization.
"Our MP4 version of Atmos is identical to Apple Music's version, at 768kbps. Our Dolby TrueHD bitrates average around 6000kbps with peak data rates up to a maximum of 18,000kbps for high sampling rate multichannel content." For comparison, stereo 24/192 uncompressed has a bitrate of about 9000kbps, so that's a lot of data.
What, then, is Lindberg's judgment on the version of Atmos disseminated by Apple Music?
"The lossy version of Atmos is to me a bleak shadow of the real, uncompressed source."
I vehemently disagree with you but this is a great column; the best you've written in a long time.
You're best when you have a) news to report (the quotes) and passion. Please keep it up.
I listen to Apple Music atmos stuff all the time in my living room, even mixed down to 5.1 it's great. Sure, I wish it was lossless, but I'm not crying wolf about it. Normal streaming, both music and video, has significantly improved in quality over time, and there's no reason to think Atmos won't do the same, just have some patience and enjoy what's out there. Having all these Atmos/surround mixes so easily available without cluttering my house with piles of plastic is incredible.
It seems that on the digital side it is about gimmicks and not the highest resolution possible. I don't do MC or buy Apple products, so it does not really matter to me, except to see where digital is headed.
It seems odd to me with all that is going on with digital TV and customers wanting more and more resolution and bigger screens. I guess this just proves that people are just more visual.
I am enjoying my headphone experiences and just bought a second pair of AKG K701s ($200) which seem to do a good job of matching my hearing loss. I have enough high rez material to last my remaining days past my 76 years.
I enjoyed my new time with Tidal HD streaming and find it very good and way better than Amazon HD which I cancelled. I am pleasantly surprised.
@ jimtavegia My feelings exactly!!!! Seems like we took a step backwards and in the process - revived the HD-DVD format for audio. I've never bought in to the Apple culture. I'm a lossless type of guy.
I will still buy CDs and LPs, just signed up for Tidal HD which sounds very good. I added the ML stylus to the stock AT-VM 95C cart and this new Technics rig is the best I've owned and I don't have to worry about Atmos anymore.
What is funny about all of this as I have enjoyed the PBS series Now Here This with Scott Yoo and own the 4 DVDs and Beethoven's Ghost DVD, all recorded at 24/48 and sound great. Here you can see their recording engineers doing their best to capture great sound. I bought a nice Topping DAC so I know what the sample rate is on the display.
Sad where the industry is headed, digitally. I don't buy Apple products and never will after this.
This hatred of Dolby Digital + Atmos, and hope for its demise, must stem from a fear of something? There certainly can’t be anything wrong with people enjoying music in the highest immersive resolution yet released (for 99% of albums).
Unpacking your remark I see that you've projected fear, hatred, and intent upon the writer, and I see that you've concluded behavior not in evidence and made an unfounded conjecture about some combination of perception and technology.
The most immersive resolution is that created by state of the art two-channel playback. I can more credibly claim that than you can claim that the crown just automatically goes to Dolby and that anybody missing such a declaration in a considerable audio journal must be off.
Your remark serves a bias. It does not serve the furtherance of the pursuit.
The poster is trying to trying to bring out some bias here on the Editor, when the writing is more about lamenting the decisions that Apple has made for its platform and its product delivery. I sense the same bias in the poster you see, Laphr.
It serves no one but their own self.
The most immersive resolution is that created by state of the art two-channel playback.
For live musicians playing in a real live space (like a string quartet concert, etc), surround really does do it significantly better for me. I learned this when I heard Yamaha's late 80's 11 channel surround system playing classical music at a dealer. Things have gotten better, but 768 kbps for 5.1.4 is neither sufficient nor a step forward (or better than that almost 40 year old Yamaha system).
1. Live musicians playing in a real live space is one test; great multi-miked pop is another and orchestral space is a third. The list is long. If a system can't get convincing realism from very good 2-channel then it isn't good enough. That's a valid claim.
I think the Stereophile context includes high end audio, including extreme 2-channel, and not [looks over comment thread] catty sniping over gadgetry.
2. Check the context in my comment above. The argument was hypothetical and I presented excellent 2-channel as a theoretical alternative to the blind assertion that multi-channel sounds better just because it has speakers everywhere playing back complicated channeling.
The 2-channel system encodes an enormous amount of delicate nuance. Personally, I haven't heard a multi-channel system that sounded as naturally spacious. I respect your experience and I also respect my experience and that of people in this publication listening at higher levels than I am, but there is no consensus and there can be no consensus because of the wide variability in playback quality.
But there can be catty sniping from one side of the fence. I suspect that the trolls just speak without an appreciation of what they haven't experienced.
DD+ has a maximum bitrate of 6.114 Mbps (6114 kbps), which is 8 times what Apple is using, 768 kbps. That's pretty much it, right there. Apple will set the standard and that standard is, well... substandard (Tidal already using it). It's worse than what you get on Blu-ray so not the highest rez yet released.
It's worse than what you get on Blu-ray so not the highest rez yet released.
Hi supamark, For 99% of albums, the Atmos streams from Apple, Tidal, and Amazon are the highest resolution ever released to the public. This will change, but for now it's the objective truth.
I choose to accept reality and educate people on how to best play this content on their systems, rather than hope for its demise simply becuse a higher resolution version exists in the vaults of record labels. If we hoped for the demise of everything less than the master, we wouldn't have much music to enjoy. A better approach in my view work with what we have, enjoy it, and push for better.
Whilst I would like more atmos blu rays,I could not buy thousands so am happy with some extras as streaming.
They should give us a DL option to purchase and release some limited edition blu rays such as Thriller with 5000 available on sale.
some sound engineers, like the one from Radiohead if I'm not mistaken, say that mono is still best. I do not share that opinion. With mono you don't achieve a sound image. But maybe you don't need a sound image for a "live" feeling? Not sure. Still, I am convinced that you will achieve the best results with, and you can better invest in a fully wired stereo with (purchased) digital music (no streaming). I buy AIFF files (without compression, which are not "lossless" but "lossnothing") in cd or High Res quality and store them on my iPhone serving as an iPod and in the Onkyo HF app. In addition, I refuse to buy the red and blue for the fourth time, on vinyl as a teenager, on CD in my twenties and in High Res files a few years ago. Do they really want to earn four or five times with the same music from me? Really?
Sure, everyone can have an opinion... (But nothing to fear just because 768kbps EAC3+JOC though.)
IMO, Radiohead albums generally aren't great sounding but sometimes there's very interesting 'immersive' information in them. For example, the other day I was listening to In Rainbows (CD) with crosstalk cancellation / ambiophonics and that first track especially has a lot of soundstage content not normally experienced with a standard stereo setup - I bet the BACCH folks will get a kick out of that track!
I would also really miss the soundstage on OK Computer if folded down to mono.
The nice thing about the Atmos Beatles is that like other multichannel albums, the dynamic range is better and can be appreciated when folded down to 2-channel stereo. Thanks to some standardization when it comes to loudness levels with these mixes. Not saying it's worth it to rebuy old music yet again, but the surround soundstage aspect and improved dynamics might be worth it for some.
To both cogno and Archimago, I originally had the reaction that I didn't need a 4th/5th/8th version of Red and Blue. So I was pleasantly surprised when I received them as gifts.
The Red and Blue mixes are very much different from the originals with which we're familiar. (I'm talking here obviously about the stereo, because the Atmos can only be streamed and I haven't heard them.)
Anyway, the TL:DR is that the new Red and Blue mixes do the same as the 2018 remix of the White album: They are not replacements but rather new twists on old, familiar friends.
The main event doesn't change. But all three reveal interesting new tidbits that only add to one's appreciation of the Beatles.
Mono is best for purity of signal, unmuffled by multiple channels. Just as a single speaker without a crossover will deliver the purest signal, but at a cost, the high end and bottom end are missing. Single mic through to mono single driver is the ultimate in simplicity of audio reproduction. But for soundstage and atmosphere, yes more complexity is required, multiple mics, multiple drivers, division of labor by a crossover, DSP.
Also, you have to admit, mono makes speaker placement super easy, and you don't have nagging doubts about whether the speakers need to be adjusted for perfect imaging. When in reality speakers should be moved for every single recording to achieve ideal imaging. The ideal would be speakers placed where two microphones are placed, maybe mixed with a center mic a la Mercury Living Presence.
Why not stream lossless Atmos audio? We already stream UHD 4K movies with (compressed Atmos soundtracks). Why hamstring such a remarkable experience?
Jim,
To the hatred of Dolby Digital + Atmos, and hope for its demise, I would add MQA and any other digital format that is just another play by the record company suits to "invet" yet another format to encourage consumers to buy the same 25-40 titles yet again. I'm 68 and have seen this BS for far too long. Just listen to records, reel to reel, or even cassettes OR redbook CDs and let this digital format BS die a quick painful death.
What is the resolution of streaming Atmos?
Anton, that was covered in the first As We See It on that topic--first link from the above essay.
Best Wishes,
Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile
Why the constant negativity towards Atmos or anything multich for that matter? Rather than promote the SOTA in immersive audio and then encourage a change to a lossless stream, all you can do is continue to berate. Lossless Atmos files are huge and very demanding of bandwidth but it could be done if the market demands. It took us decades of asking for the lossless streaming of 2ch before it became a reality. Stereophile has had it's head on backwards towards surround sound ever since J. Gordon Holt left over the issue and the loss of Kal's Rubinson's "In The Round" put the final nail in it's coffin at this magazine. While over at The Absolute Sound multich coverage continues and expands with things like Robert Harley's October 2023, 8 page article on the building of the new HT/Music room in his home.
Mr Austin, your short sighted vision of High Fidelity's SOTA is slowly leading this magazine into the stone age and it's demise. I highly suggest you step down and turn the reins over to someone with a wider view of High Performance Audio.
Sal1950
I can see why you would be so supportive!
Just be honest, streaming ATMOS is not audiophile, unless you want to settle for an inferior product.
Right?
The problem is that Apple only uses 1/8, that's 12.5%, of the available bitrate with Dolby Digital+ (DD+). That's hardly state of the art. That full bitrate btw is 6,144 kbs, and while it ain't lossless it's much MUCH better than the 20 year old bitrate/channel Apple is pushing now for 5.1.4 Atmos. I mean, that's like 2001 Napster quality Atmos.
I understand why they did it (wireless phone streaming data/network, and cost of cloud data storage/transmission). A full bitrate DD+ master for home streaming/purchase is the least the nebulous "they" can do and I think most audiophiles would be okay with this - up to 18 Mbps is a lot of bandwidth for lossless, and not everyone has access to that much download speed to stream lossless Atmos. Also, the max DD+ bitrate is roughly the average bitrate for uncompressed Atmos at a 48kHz sample rate. I'd like to see Dolby make a lossless compression codec for Atmos to get that average data rate down a bit (like FLAC for stereo), and maybe then we can have nice things... to listen to in surround.
I tried out a few "Atmos" mixes on Tidal using headphones and came away unimpressed. I think they were generally 5.1 mixes (hence "Atmos"). I don't know the bitrate, nor do I know the codec so headphones might not be optimal but it's probably comparable overall since Apple's size and early entry will likely set the standard. Ignoring surround aspects the sound quality was a little... pixelated sounding, but not as bad as I expected so that's something I guess?
I'll take the word of a guy who's actually listening to and is making original Dolby Atmos masters:
What, then, is Lindberg's judgment on the version of Atmos disseminated by Apple Music?
"The lossy version of Atmos is to me a bleak shadow of the real, uncompressed source."
Mark Phillips,
Contributor, Soundstage! Network.
I understand that Atmos is intended to provide an enhanced experience compared to two channel stereo, that it can be provided in lossy or lossless format, and that Apple currently provides Atmos in a lossy format.
MQA provided lossy two channel stereo. I understand many people, like me, can't hear the difference, for me (and I believe many others) the key issue was that MQA was lossy and a proprietary system when there was a perfectly good lossless and open source format already established and avaliable - i.e. FLAC (or ALAC).
So, after reading the column, if the issue for Stereophile with ATMOS is Apple's lossy compressed delivery, then why is Stereophile so consistenly against Atmos being lossy compressed when it has been so consistently for MQA, which is also lossy compressed?
Different times, different editors.
Stereophile talking about this has succeeded in rallying the haters of MQA into lovers of a new lossy format.
Orwellian audiophilia.
Fascinating.
To summarize, MQA is lossless at all frequencies where music (and music-related sounds) exist. The part it loosely compressed is noise--not even sonic noise, but electronic noise, far above the audible range. Non-musical information. You don't have to like it, but you can't hear the lossiness. (And I don't care about the proprietary part.)
The deterioration of Atmos with Apple's lossy compression is easy to hear.
Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile
As
"To summarize, MQA is lossless at all frequencies where music (and music-related sounds) exist. "
So you say, many others with more serious engineering chops have presented otherwise.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30381-mqa-is-vaporware/#comments
When it sounds different, it sounds different than the master the engineers released. In other words, it's distorted.
"The deterioration of Atmos with Apple's lossy compression is easy to hear."
No one claims it isn't! But lossless Atmos is the SOTA in immersive music presentation today. And 5.1 music is nearly as incredible and a very close 2sd. What's your problem with at lease mentioning either in any positive way? All that ever comes out of your pen is negativity.
Give it up Jim and turn Stereophile over to someone actually interested in moving the SOTA in recorded music forward.
If you were willing to invest five minutes, you'd have no problem finding positive comments I've made about Dolby Atmos. My criticism has always been about Apple's profoundly lossy version--yet critics insist on acting as if what I write is not what I mean. Sorry, that's your issue, can't help you with that.
Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile
I could be in error, but being a subscriber since the early 80's I can't remember any.
You have no problem dedicating entire editorials to bashing it.
Maybe I'm having a senior moment (decades?).
Show me
It's true that I haven't written much about Atmos; we are, after all, a two-channel magazine (Stereowhile). Still, just one click away:
JCA learned that Atmos in its lossless, hi-rez "TrueHD" form is capable of excellent technical quality
And though it's no rave, the first thing I wrote about Atmos, following its introduction by Apple, has its positive moments.
I will also point out that whenever there's another step toward achieving the goal of high-quality Atmos in a home music (not home theater) environment, we cover it. Those are my decisions. See Kal Rubinson's recent and forthcoming reviews.
Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile
Please Jim,
That editorial was simply a total bash fest against Apple by you. Now I'm far from an "Apple" guy, in fact the Apple 4K box was and is the only Apply product I've ever owned. I got the box because it's simply a great streamer and Apple has the largest catalog of multich music on the market.
You do need to find ways to stop using your editor position as a bully pulpit and try to contribute more to the advancement of High Fidelity music in the home.
With all due respect, with leadership like this it's no wonder that HiFi enthusiasts are a dying bread.
I haven't owned a non-Apple computer for at least 20 years. I have never owned a non-Apple smart phone. I own two AppleTVs and an Apple Watch. I use a pair of AirPod Pros every time I exercise. I've never succumbed to the tablet phenomenon, but the only tablets I've ever owned were iPads. In general terms, I love Apple. I do not love their version of Dolby Amos.
Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile
It would help your cause, Mister Austin, if you were to understand the definition of the words you use. The word "stereo" is a descendant of the Greek στέρεο which literally means solid, cubic or three-dimensional. Historically, with the limitations of technology, a three dimensional reproduction of music was somewhat enabled by the use of two speakers. With the availability of >2 channels, the stereoscopic (i.e. three-dimensional) reproduction of music is more solid (i.e. more "stereo" if you will) than with 2 channels.
You are free to edit what could remain a two-channel magazine as is your prerogative. However, to say that the title "Stereophile" is more apropos to two channels than to multiple channels, especially wih the use of object based audio, is incorrect. After all, "phile" from the Greek Φίλε means love, and if one truly is a lover of stereo, then to remain rooted in two channels and laying claim to be a stereo phile is, at best, delusional and redefining terms to suit one's purpose.
The word "stereo" is a descendant of the Greek στέρεο which literally means solid, cubic or three-dimensional.
If anyone has time to review all the As We See It essays I've written since becoming Stereophile's editor, you will find me making that very point in one of them. As for me, I don't have time to do that search.
Yet it is, clearly a word with multiple meanings. Merriam Webster, which is the dictionary of record for US English--hence relied on by US editors everywhere--defines "stereophonic" like this:
of, relating to, or constituting sound reproduction involving the use of separated microphones and two transmission channels to achieve the sound separation of a live hearing
Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile
Perhaps a more careful read of my comment would be helpful. And…if, indeed you have read it carefully, then conflating my comment on your misuse of “stereophile” by moving the goalposts to “stereophonic” is at best, disingenuous. That is…unless you folks are planning on changing the name of the publication to “Stereophonic.”
Present technology allowing multiple channels using object oriented audio is closer to recreating that solid (stereo) image when reproducing audio, and is closer to recreating the realism — a point that, for some reason, you are unable to acknowledge or see. If one wishes to be at the forefront of techniques for the realistic reproduction of audio, it is unwise to live in the past and helpful to live in the present.
It is somewhat interesting and revealing that the writers in the video industry have had a greater influence in furthering audio reproduction than the audio press.
... the definition of "stereo" is not at all helpful:]
o ˈster-ē-ˌō ˈstir-
plural stereos
1
: STEREOTYPE
2
[by shortening]
a
: stereophonic reproduction
b
: a stereophonic sound system
stereo
2 of 2
adjective
1
a
: STEREOSCOPIC
b
: produced by or as if by means of a stereotype
2
: STEREOPHONIC
The etymology of stereotype LITERALLY comes from solid type, if you were to do just a wee bit of research on the term. That would mean that the definition of stereo is, indeed, VERY helpful and remains unchanged.
You might want to pick a better example if you’re attempting to obfuscate. And, if that is not your intent, this is a very strange hill to choose to die on.
Bickering about semantics. Have you heard a top line Atmos system vs. a top line 2 channel system in the hundreds of thousands of dollars range?
I think not.
Yes to the bit about top line systems, and…
yes to the bit about you not thinking (hey…you said it, I’m just agreeing). ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Then you are a noob in the woods wondering what Jim is talking about. Stay out of the argument or learn.
Go to an audio show and educate your ears brother. Not hating, just saying you need to see where Jim is speaking from. Way above your listening level... systems that expensive really do bring you past even the most expensive Atmos systems.
Atmos holds promise but Apple's attitude on getting better and not worse for consumers is plain. Jim is right bro. And arguing about semantics deflects the intent and brings the discussion into the toilet.
Sorry, not trying to be rude.
I agree, partially, with the last bit about the attitude you refer to.
However, and I repeat here, Dolby Atmos from Blu-ray sources is what sets the current bar, and not streaming which is acceptably better (when done right)than 2-channel streamed audio. I, personally, do not subscribe to streaming services (primarily because I have a large enough collection of music that is well mastered, occasionally flat-transferred from the analogue master tapes), and am speaking from my own experience with the category of systems you mention.
Your position is akin to that of one arguing about how digital video is far worse than analog film because of 480i content on YouTube as opposed to digital 4K (or even 8K) IMAX; the article itself conflates low bitrates with Atmos, and that is precarious ground to stand on.
Audio shows are *the* worst locale to educate one’s ears because, generally, the venue environment is beyond the control of the exhibitor, and the hearing acumen or opinion of anyone recommending someone “educate their ears” there is questionable. I concede that there are some setups that are unavailable for people to experience in their neighborhood, but I assure you that a properly treated environment (be it at a suitable vendor or diligent user) shows off a system to the best capability.
Making assumptions about someone’s listening acumen basically ad hominem), in light of the aforementioned, is…unfortunate; and I would, with respect, suggest that you listen…to yourself.
That your ears have no idea of what you are talking about.
Pure dogma is left. See above.
Do tell- what top-tier systems you've heard at dealers or anywhere recently?
The sound is largely fantastic in most rooms at any given trade show. I can tell by your response, you definitely could use some ear time where you educate yourself. You speak of many years past experience, I'm quite sure. Go to a trade show- you need a lot of reference.
To be sure, Mr. Austin deserves a 75% + raise in salary to put up with the moronic posters on this Stereophile site
"It's true that I haven't written much about Atmos; we are, after all, a two-channel magazine (Stereowhile)"
Hum, that name was given by Gordon close to 50 years ago when "Stereo" was still a relatively new thing. And as you know he came to love multich when it arrived many years later. I actually thought this mag was a Journal of High End Audio, for the promotion of the best in Home Music Reproduction. Again as I've said in the past, you are far too narrow minded on the subject of audio to be Editor.
...This is not the magazine you are looking for.
Move along.
Surely, we can have dialogue about whether Stereophile is just about 2-channel audio or should the magazine be about a higher level principle of high quality audio reproduction, right?
I trust Jim, or JA, or anyone on the staff of Stereophile doesn't need to make a decision on this here and now, right? Why not give it time and think this through? Ultimately they're in charge and whatever goes, goes...
As much as I critique articles like this and the previous one for making some IMO inaccurate claims and have not been as complete as they could obviously be, I still think the title "Stereophile" is appropriate and should take its rightful place to encompass all "solid" forms of audio reproduction that convey the realism of an actual musical experience.
Why diminish oneself by putting a boundary/wall/fence in the ground? If life at some level is about experience, why limit our enjoyment of music if the technology pushes forward and there are all kinds of new experiences and perspectives?!
IMO, even though the choice can be made to do so, I don't think there is anything to be gained by limiting the magazine's scope. Or any audiophile limiting their scope to a mere 2 channels or certain types of media, or technologies!
Have you been to one audio show? To hear what 2 channel does?
Instead of arguing bullshit theory and dogma, go and listen and prove it to yourself. The fact is your system cant tell you one iota of what Atmos fails to do, where as Jim's does.
To assume the level of quality of Atmos systems available at retail vs. the top line 2 channel systems is a farce. A dream that Jim states very well, is dying because of Apple's laziness, not Stereophile.
Go to an audio show (or a great dealer) and educate your ears.
LOL, I don't know what I'm talking about? LOL
I've been doing High End audio probably 20 years before your were born.
And if your going to attempt to put words in my mouth here, that won't work either.
In a battle of wits, you've arrived unarmed. ;)
And you're not even worth arguing over.
Jim's essay was nothing of the bitchy, childish ranting that yours was. You fail to even read his point, and you lie by using RH's examples.
And JA1 proves you have no idea of what lossy is as his statement below.
Your statements are about dogma and tribalism. I have no issues with Atmos and neither does Jim. 2 channel is just as valid as Atmos or any surround categories.
I also have subscribed to both Sp and TAS since the 80's as well.
Whether or not you're wrong on a point is irrelevant. It's the narrow-minded gall with which you issue your fallacies. Were you responding to the same troll bat-signal as T.S. Gnu?
Rhetorical question.
You people are so obtuse; you've entirely replaced the experience with that predictably self-indulgent condescension. Us normals identify it by the wild intellectual variability behind its droningly consistent monotone.
It would seem that your diatribe is mainly against lossy streaming and not against Dolby Atmos itself. It is possible that an editor looking at this column might have suggested a more suitable headline for this column which would, hopefully, have precluded many of the comments in response. But...then again...it might not have resulted in as many page views; after all, click-bait is good for revenue.
Good morning John.
Glad you stopped by. In Feb 2024 R2L4 I just finished reading your review of L2's Henning Sommerro.
To your credit you do mention that it's available in Atmos 7.1.4 both on BD disc and
downloads, along with a few other variations of immersive and surround mixings. Also that these recordings are at the forefront of immersive recordings.
OTOH, in the text you then go on to say that you still have a beef against all multich formats and refuse to listen to anything but 2ch because you had to "survive" Quad back in the 70s. Really John, that was 50 years ago?
So you going to hold a grudge against multich forever because matrix'd SQ & QS, and vinyls CD4 were flawed due to the weaker technology of the time? This from the former editor of Stereophile for near 25 years and a writer for 40?
I find that a sad statement from a man that was supposed to represent some of the very best in home music reproduction for all those years.
J. Gordon Holt is rolling over in his grave.
You seem to have forgotten/overlooked the MQA CDs which were essentially 16/44.1 and included the higher frequencies folded within via the "origami." Clearly this is lower bit-depth (about 14 bits) than standard CD format for signals in the audible range, so it IS lossy because musical data ARE discarded. It is interesting to see the selective memory while you continue to dig deeper.
Also, since you agree with Austin when he states that MQA is "lossless at all frequencies where music (and music-related sounds) exist," what makes you think that it is worthwhile preserving ANY frequencies where music (and music-related sounds) does NOT exist?
It's amusing to see the comment "With the MQA codec musical data are not discarded" from someone who has some dissonance with the fact that with 16/44.1 musical data are not discarded. Interesting, hmmm?
Considering that most respectable DACS upsample in order to make the D-A math easier with respect to filters), it would seem that 16 bits at 44.1kHz are sufficient to convey all audible musical information.
While the current editor often touts his fizzix credentials, one has yet to see him put forward a valid argument for anything contrary to this (other than parroting Stuart's ramblings); this is especially interesting considering the paucity of credibility of MQA was pointed out to him by experts in DSP (which is conveniently unmentioned) when he posted a query online.
In addition, many so-called "high-res" media such as SACD and DVD-A that were touted by Ye Fyne Olde Writers as being "superior" to CD were actually upsampled 16/44.1 -- the Norah Jones SACD being one example -- and, somehow, no one cottoned onto that. Then there's the praise of the "all analog sounds" of the MoFi LPs -- Santana Abraxas comes to mind -- that actually was a digital master intermediate, as per Wunderlich, LoVerde and Britton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shg0780YgAE).
It would be far more useful if statements were backed up by something more than argument from authority and it would be helpful if they were consistent with reality.
However, a single data point does not a trend make, as you would acknowledge; it would be interesting to see a list of albums where they did NOT notice Redbook upsampled content on “hi-res audio” media (downloads/SACDs, DVD-A) or notice digital intermediates on what they thought was an all analog vinyl mastering chain. As far as I recall, there has been a dearth of any kind of analysis of hi-res digital content despite the findings of Marks (and yourself) in 2004. The fact remains that several HDtracks downloads purchased by readers of this magazine merely contained upsampled content, was never flagged either by Chesky or anyone in your magazine (I believe HFN&R did do and publish analyses of some releases); in retrospect…not a good look. And…thank you for acknowledging the rest of the points in my comment.
…as in like the follow up “investigations” into MQA you had mentioned that we are still waiting on? (◔‿◔)
Let’s see those first, shall we?
I believe over processing makes real musical instruments loose their musicality. Just listen to the very expensive Kii range of super processed sound speakers, they sound great playing mostly computer generated music because as it has no harmonic structure to it's notes, put some real recorded instruments on them and they start to sound sterile.
To me it sounds like they get the fundamental notes right but can't produce the upper harmonic structure of them. Same with this Dolby Atmos, too much processing going on to give it the wow factor, but ruining any of the fine harmonics that may be there.
Cheers George
What your missing friend is the lack of harmonic distortion both from the source and the speakers internal DAC's
No sorry pal, it's a "sterility" a lack of real harmonic decay that leads into the inky black background of digital that can't be ignored, not a lack of distortion. Just have a serious listen to the Kii top range of speakers and you'll hear what's missing especially with classical music.
Cheers George
If you honestly think there's something missing and that the Kii's are in a way "distorting" the complete sound that's in those recordings because of their processing, I would suggest you contact them and ask them why that is.
I don't have them (although have heard them at dealers and audio shows), but a friend who does tells me the company is receptive to discussions and I'm sure they'll look into it and examine whether there's anything they should change!
He didn't say distortion. You said distortion. He said that that style of audio engineering makes a sterile sound.
I read that sound as the same electrical artificiality I've always heard from those sorts of systems too. I have my educated technical reasons why this might be, but the consistently artificial sound is what I'm concerned with. I don't think that concern is inconsistent with the Stereophile mission either.
The reason I jumped in to address this is because 'distortion' is the single tool in the box when it's time to criticize better-sounding components for not hewing to the leapt-conclusions of ASR-style trolls. Given their deep bias, it's their only allowable term.
Maybe you used it here in that same spirit. As precious as your admonishment to go take it up with the scientists at Kii must be, it's just not pertinent to either better sound or the known science I assume that you assume undergirds all of acceptable audio.
That science is really incomplete. Further, for it to be scientific it must not jump to conclusions, assume everything is known in a category or a field, or project what's not in evidence; in this case sound. It must never close the book and argue about reality as though everything is known either.
Chart-readers do all of those things. Practiced, music-loving audio people with ears do not.
There are also good things to say about Apple. The good thing about Apple (in terms of music experience) is first of all the introduction of iTunes, which became a turning point in illegal music downloading. Music was bought again, and therefore paid for. But then came streaming. Streaming nowadays is actually nothing more than illegal downloading in a better guise and yes, better quality but still (data traffic costs are the largest cost item for streaming services so they have every interest in not offering you the best quality, it's just that simple) and yes for a (too low) monthly subscription (which only the biggest artists benefit from, and the streaming services, ... do they? Or only the shareholders? Them again?). Anywyas the other good thing about Apple is the iPod, now integrated into the iPhone, along with the Apple pocket camera, Apple pocket computer, Apple pocket... you get the picture. In addition, AIFF. Uncompressed music files. Not "lossless" where you lose something (otherwise they would have called it something else, the truth is in the name), but "lossnothing", where you don't lose anything. I am convinced that music from an Apple uncompressed stereo AIFF file (or any other uncompressed format and no streaming and via a fully wired stereo) sounds better than an Apple (or anyone else's) compressed Atmos (or any other surrounding or other compressed format when using equipment in the same price range). Hence my argument in my earlier post, you are better off investing in a fully wired stereo and listening to purchased uncompressed music files. A old-school cd sounds better then any streamed music file as a 4K Blu-ray movie looks better then a streamed 4K movie. But for movies I make an exception and opt for convenience and choice, I hardly own Blu-ray movies and yes I have a subscription at Netflix and HBO Max (EU). But I don't make this exception for music and opt for maximum quality within my budget. Less (choice) is more (quality). And then this about Apple, everything from Apple also looks great (the eye is also interested, although I make an exception for my boring Hegel and Nad power amplifier in terms of looks so yeah again...) and everything from Apple works well together. My computer and smart phone are from Apple, such as the music files and storage. But I pass up for Atmos, or the smart watch and streaming and payment or any other services. And yes, Apple is for the masses, not for a small subculture and autistic nerds (I'm speaking for myself here).
Considering how crushed the dynamics are on most new stereo releases, even the failed MQA releases formally on Tidal, I find it odd that lossy Atmos, with the dynamics still intact, get this much hate. Immersive formats add a dimension that mono and stereo just can't compete with. That dimension plus the dynamics, should be what every audiophile strives for. DD+ format compression is miles ahead of your granddad's Mp3s. Apple Music Atmos is simply a steppingstone towards a greater future for immersive music, unless the narrow-minded people get their way.
Well said himey.
A response to this article on my blog:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2024/01/on-stereophiles-dolby-atmos-bleak.html
Getting anxious about lossy EAC3-JOC codec especially at quite a high 768kbps is not necessary!
Awesome post Archi, as always right on point and 100% accurate.
I originally assumed that streaming Atmos would be indistinguishable from a Blu-ray. But then I bought a Blu-ray version of an album I had listened to from Apple Music streaming - I noticed immediately that it sounded better in the lossless format. I wasn't looking for it or expecting any difference, but I noticed it by surprise.
As usual, make sure to match volume levels and your streaming playback volume is optimized.
Note also that the Blu-ray can be a different master. For example Hackney Diamonds, ABC's Lexicon of Love, Yello's Point are all 7.1-Atmos mixed on the disc but would be converted to 5.1 on the online streaming services. This too will change the sound which is also dependent on your system's specifics.
Not sure I understand how those are different "masters" if they are "converted". I'm referring to proper Atmos mixes such as Zappa's Over-nite Sensation. If you're saying that all streaming services downmix to 5.1 and then upmix back to full Atmos at my receiver, then that's more evidence of the compromise and inferiority of streaming.
This is a VERY short précis with some analogies that may be of help. Object based sound encodes the audio in 3-D space. If you were to imagine the centre speaker as having coordinates 0,0,0 and the producer intends the recording to replicate a singer in front of the mic in an anechoic chamber(hence no reverb/reflections), then no matter how many speakers the system has (technically) the decoder would only play back the singers voice through the centre channel; in a conventional 2 channel setup, the signal would be played back at the same amplitude/phase through both speakers giving rise to a phantom mono image. In with more complex content, the audio object coordinates that are encoded in the file are recreated to the best of the ability of the playback system (limited by however many speakers are available) when the processor (which knows how many speakers are present) sends signals at the appropriate amplitude/phase to each of the relevant speakers in order to reproduce the encoded soundstage to the best ability of the reproducing system. It’s one encoded file that may be decoded in any system, be it 2.0, 2.1, X.1, or X.Y.Z (where X=number of “surround” channels, Y=number of bass channels, Z=number of height channels).
Hope that makes things somewhat understandable
I'm familiar with how object-based encoding works. I was referring to a specific example of albums mixed for Atmos presented in lossless Blu-ray versus lossy Apple Music stream. Archimago's comment said that they were two different "masters". I'm skeptical about that.
he knows what he heard and it was a clear difference because it's noticable to a lot of people. Your experience does not translate to other people any more than mine does. I compared two versions of a classical piano piece on Tidal using headphones, one DD+ Atmos and the other 24/96 FLAC - the difference in sound quality was stark and in favor of the stereo 24/96 lossless. The DD+ sounded like a mp3 file of ok quality (piano, not the reverb/surround because headphones). Would the sound quality difference be noticable to you? I have no idea because we are different people, but I would hope so.
Another sounded like I was on the podium, and that's really not the location from which I want to hear an orchestra so I only listened for a few seconds.
Mark Phillips,
Contributor, Soundstage! Network
PS - Angele Dubeau & La Pieta, Signature Philip Glass
track 1 - Glassworks: 1. Opening
...yes FLAC on Tidal, and the pianist has talent.
Headphones aren’t the optimal way to experience Atmos.
Of course that's going to be very different Mark comparing the DD+ Atmos vs. FLAC! Way different mixes plus it depends on how the rendering was done of the Atmos mix to the headphones. That makes much more difference than the lossy EAC3-JOC encoding! Individual HRTF also adds to the perception on top of personal preferences.
@ergalthema: I should have said above of the 7.1 vs. 5.1 that the Dolby software will "author" these differently rather than the word "mix".
Yes, the Atmos height channels are based on the "bed" 5.1 channels and what is sent to those speakers are derived with metadata.
Was that the DD+ piano sounded like an okay quality mp3 to me. I was even explicit about that. These things are typically recorded with a single mic array, so the difference is in the ambience not the front channels. It's why I chose this piece, well that and I like Glassworks. For me, it went from "that's a piano" to "that sounds a lot like a Baldwin 9' concert grand." I highly doubt it is a Baldwin, they tend to sound even more midrangy and are common in classic rock, not classical. In other words, I could easily hear the lossy compression and that information had been lost. Believe me or not, it's still a fact.
If you can't tell the difference that's okay. Just don't assume your experience maps to others, nor should you handwave to hide that you can't tell the difference - it just means the people who programmed it did a good job.
Knowing that I can easily tell the difference, this article has actually been helpful to me since I'm remodeling/rebuilding my listening room - now I won't waste money on an Atmos system unless/until I get a large Atmos Blu-ray collection (movies and music). That last .4 really ain't cheap. Or easy to install. 1/8 bitrate DD+ just ain't worth it to me or my ears, especially when I don't like Steven Wilson mixes at all (his surround mixes come directly from his wet noodle sounding stereo mixes, blech).
uhhhh....no,you can't. You imagine that you do. But that's OK.
Imagination is a good thing. Just don't try to do it blindfolded. You will have a very disconcerting awakening if you do.
Jeff is on his lunch break so I'm filling in. Hang on while I look for my notes. Ok, here goes:
You're biased. You're a boob. Have you ever heard a real system? I myself have many expensive items.
Bet you're jealous that you're not rich enough to spend all your time defending an editor and publication that doesn't pay you. So there.
You actually presume to know what I can hear? That's one of the most ignorant comments I've seen from you, and there've been a lot of them. Gaslighting and trolling seem to be all you are actually capable of, maybe you should work on that shortcoming. What you repeatedly say ("hurr durr everything sounds the same, derp") is as ignorant as saying that sommaliers can't tell a white wine from a red wine, or Thunderbird from high quality wine. You're just jealous that you can't hear the things others can, get over it.
Maybe you should consider that I have synesthesia, involving both my visual and touch senses when I hear - I am literally using far more processing power than you are capable of when I use my hearing. High frequency phase issues sound grey, like the pre-Meta KEF Uni-Q driver (Q350 to original Blade II, everything using it sounds grey - Meta sounds very good, a touch golden) or bad 1980's digital filters. Reverb in a good live hall sounds like golden honey encasing my body. You experience any of that? No? Then zip it, you're very repetitive and tiresome.
"The deterioration of Atmos with Apple's lossy compression is easy to hear."
"I originally assumed that streaming Atmos would be indistinguishable from a Blu-ray. But then I bought a Blu-ray version of an album I had listened to from Apple Music streaming - I noticed immediately that it sounded better in the lossless format. I wasn't looking for it or expecting any difference, but I noticed it by surprise."
Same thing happens in CD v Streaming.
Cheers George
I can be moved by music from a mono Sonos or whatever mono system and from a 300K installation and whatever system. Ultimately it is about the music (and the (memory) that it evokes) and not about the sound system or format of the sound file.
Btw I can not be moved by music played from an iPhone built-in speaker or any smart phone. Unfortunately I cannot avoid ending up in such a situation sometimes and that's over my irritation threshold. How much effort does it cost to use at least a small JBL speaker?
Folks, as someone who has a ton of experience listening to the TrueHD and DolbyDigital+ streams, I would agree that the differences are easy to hear, just like it was with MQA. The difference is in the loss of the sense of space in the mix and some detail. However, it is still a worthwhile listening experience and most often better than the terribly compressed stereo mix. It is often leaps and bounds better than what MQA was doing. It would not surprise me if Apple Music changes to TrueHD over time. I do not think they will be forever DD+. In speaking with a contact at Dolby, I note they are pushing for this. Expect some announcements this year of the availability of a good deal more Blu Ray releases and MKV downloads. I think for Atmos, the future is bright.
Einstein Motivational Quote; "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. imagination circles the world".
Appl. to Dolby Atmos and multichannel (in general), etc. etc.
... if one's imagination can't create a satisfying auditory experience from 2-channel, even for movies, then the imagination system may be handicap.
You need automagic transmission, electric doors and wheelchair ramps. The U.S. govt. necessitates accessibility to all disabled.
With a fresh Dirac calibration to tighten things up in my HT, I am receiving the DSOTM blu ray tomorrow with the new Atmos mix, which has been freed from the boxed set and is now available for $20 on Amazon. I can compare said disc to the Apple Music Atmos, the SACD 5.1 mix and stereo mix and an original MoFi LP with less than 50 total lifetime plays. I only lack the Parsons mix. Importantly, I will be able to directly compare the two Atmos versions. In prior comparisons of the Moving Pictures Atmos blu ray to the Apple Music stream, I didn't actually hear a lot of differences. I tend to believe that when listening to multichannel, some of the nuances are muted by the immersive experience as the brain assembles it all in to a coherent construct. YMMV, and so shall mine... But as far as it goes, the only relevant part of this discussion is quite literally comparing Apple to Apples...
rant on/And just as an aside, I had a chance to hangout socially with jj once when he was working in the perceptual coding division of MS and we discussed his thoughts on perceptual coders in general, and even then some nearly 20 years ago he believed that Fraunhofer had come up with the secret sauce for rendering a reasonable bit-rate lossy codec to be nearly inaudible in most contexts. Given the limitations of consumer standards for maximum bitrates for streaming, I can't see how we're going to lossless files streamed to us for another 5-10 years. So instead of handwringing about what you aren't getting, buy the damn discs for now and STFU. /rant off
That guy in the picture at the top of the article represents the average number of chairs and the average number of listeners in the average audiophile's listening room.
More speakers than listeners is some sort of audiophile rule.
;-D
and headphone listeners. As my left ear became impaired, to make the presentation less confusing & dialog clearer, I prefer to watch/listen to movies with the surrounds turned down/off, in phantom center channel mode & subwoofer turned down/off. Luckily, my Sony AVR provides this on the speakers & headphones. I ask that any new multi channel system provide these same features for the hearing impaired. This should be simple to do in an app or menu?
I can’t recall ever seeing so much judgemental posting on a forum covering stuff that’s supposed to make us feel good.
Sure, there are people who can’t afford high speed streaming, and there are people who bought into MQA within hours. And the hobby can accommodate all of us.
There are elements of recordings I can hear, but my wife cannot. There are elements of recordings that my neighbor can hear that I cannot. None of us is wrong about what we can hear, nor are any of us wrong about what we like.
I see several posters here who clearly don’t have much of a life, and I hope they can find one.
..gave animals one pair of eyes and ears for a reason.
I just bought a new CD of Alice Sara Ott: Beethoven from 2023. It is a Duetsche Gramophone release NO. 486-4898
To me, there is something wrong with the sound of the orchestra from the very beginning as it is very loud and distorted to me. In my DAW there are no overs and even the loudest passages are at -1db with no overs. There is some artifact whether it is some compression or limiting, mic preamp overload or something else I cannot define. Her piano level is much lower and exhibits none of this.
I asked DG about this and their response was that if I did not like the sound of the CD I should try it in Dolby Atmos. What??? Listen on a compressed lower bit rate audio format is their solution?
I wrote them back and asked if they even tried to pull out their copy and listen to the first track before responding to my email to them? I said that if they can't even do that, I was not about to waste time replaying this in Dolby Atmos as that would mean I would have to buy a HT receiver or processor to do that, which I am not doing for one CD.
Kind of a sad commentary on where a once great label is headed.