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Lets see what's going on here, Mr. Michigan J. Frog.
(1) You identify yourself as being a slimy little green amphibian named Michigan J. Frog.
(2) You put a picture of yourself on every post and the pictures is that of a slimy little green amphibian.
and then, wonder of wonders:
(3) You claim that calling you a slimy little green amphibian is an insult.
Obviously my slimy green little amphibian, you are insufficently self-aware to bother with.
Oh, well!
Excellent point Mr. Mejias.
Measure time, wasted.
I agree we're all a bunch of losers. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
OK, but I'm a better loser than you are................no, wait I meant your a better.......no .....poorer.............screw it.
I dunno what you was gettin tuh winnin, bit I thinks yah gonned and wonned it.
And I yours. But perhaps not quite as much, since we've only been in negotiation to test Ethan on his files for a few hours now (although I probably first pitched the idea a couple of days ago). By me, a few hours means it hasn't gotten a chance to get anywhere (particularly with Ethan stalling again on the negotiation).
I guess you're tired of the back and forth, but imagine how I feel. It's been nearly a year now that I've been trying to nail Ethan down on a blind test challenge. And it's been an experience much like nailing a blob of jello down. It's not like I'm twisting his arm here, as he's been trying to do with everyone else in this thread, with his chopped up and highly suspect WAV "version" of MF's AIFF files. Ethan keeps saying to me he's more than willing to prove his mettle in a blind test, particularly against mine. As I stated at the time, I realized that after weeks of negotation, he had been jerking me around the entire time. With no honest intention of ever going through with the challenge or planning to meet me, but simply to get background info on where I lived.
Next came the Fresh Clip CD demagnetization challenge. I was the first one to take it and submit my opinion as to which file was before and after. Followed closely by Jan. I tried to get Ethan involved, because we needed two more to get the results. And it was like prodding cattle or pulling teeth, one of the two. Much later, he did commit to "try" to download the test files, but then as I predicted he would, came up with more excuses as to why he couldn't download all 4. Shades of last summer's big Blind Test Challenge. Many weeks later, he found a new ally in Arny Krueger, who gave him a fresh new excuse: the FC files are the same, so I'm supposed to accept that as his "out" of the Fresh Clip challenge. As far as I know he never withdrew his assertion that CD demagnetization is impossible and does nothing, but refuses to participate in the group test on it.
Then once I gave MF's Furutech files an honest whirl (it was not a blind test, though I tried to make it one for myself), and gave my honest opinions resulting from my first listen, I was blasted by Ethan, madly skeptical of my listening experience, because in his he could not hear differences with the files. At this time I was finally able to confirm for myself that Ethan and I don't have nearly the same degree of listening ability, and I stated what I honestly felt, from our collective experiences. Which resulted in the "10-second bastardization of MF's files", or "Ethan's Vengeance Test" as I called it, which we are currently arguing about.
This is where he -demanded-, with lots of taunting and fanfare, that I take his test of 10 second WAV snippets converted and chopped up from MF's AIFF originals, and that there was no way on God's green earth I was going to guess this right, according to him. Oh and one more thing, he would remain the sole knower of the identity of these chopped and smashed up (and how knows what else) files, and he would also be the one telling me whether I got his test right. Thus either making him look like a loud-mouthed know nothing deaf jerk, or if he, "perfectly objective and neutral test conductor", declares I got it wrong, proving everything he has ever said against me, high end audio, or life in general was correct. Well how could I possibly resist a sweet offer like that? And yet somehow I foolishly did. Even so, tentatively. Because I later agreed to take his "screw-with-me-good" test, with a promise to identify the two after files from the 4 identical files he posted. On the condition he would take FC's test. As two of us have long since challenged him to do. He actually ignored that generous offer, but strangely, kept on insulting people to take his test. Apparently not caring if I was one of them, even though he created his test for me. (Though even more bizarre, he twice stated that he was refusing to ever give the results to anyone who took his test, unless and until I took his test?).
In the final chapter of the "Will Ethan Ever Submit Himself To A Blind Test He Can't Cheat At"? story, it was looking like maybe he was brave enough to accept my latest challenge to him; which I think was a fair one. If he is going to continue haranguing people in this thread, demanding they take his test or renounce the Furutech, then it's only fair he respond to my criticism that his files weren't the same as MF's (let alone the same as the actual device, which he has nevertheless been claiming), by taking the test himself. So I offered to randomize the files, and repost them, and see if he could by listening to them, guess which is which. And if he couldn't do so, he should stop asking everyone else to. Of course, I need to know which of his files is the before and after, in order to tell him whether he got it right or not. But Ethan insisted I just post the files, and didn't need to know which is which, without explaining the logic of that (seeing as I'm conducting the test on him, not the other way around).
But you see, Ethan is hiding something from us with this. Instead of being honest about what he is trying to hide, he started trying to play head games with me. When I asked him how he expects me to tell him whether he got the before and after files correct, if I don't know them, he issued the non-response "I already explained how." (referring me to the fact that he simply told me to rename and post the files). In case anyone doesn't realize yet, this is what's known in the coward business as a "stalling tactic". So in other words, he agreed to be blind tested by me, but the "condition" he didn't mention when he agreed to it, was that he refuses to let me conduct the test properly. The only thing he's willing to answer is which file I renamed, corresponds to which of his original files. Which is definitely NOT the same test he is asking others to perform. Which of course means he is not willing to take the same test he's expecting, nay demanding, the rest of us here take. (You're on his list as well!).
I knew Ethan wasn't sincere about taking his test all along, I just didn't know how he would try to get out of it. His "plan" was to "outsmart me", by pretending he was going to listen to the files and expertly guess the identity of each, when he had no intention of ever doing so (and indeed, he can't identify the 4 files by hearing them, as he is asking others to do). Ethan thinks I don't know that he already has a reference to the digital signature of all 4 files. And that he can pop them in Sound Forge in two seconds, and match the waveforms, or any of a number of methods, to determine which file I renamed matches which of his originals. This is the reason for skirting my question as to how he expects me to determine whether he correctly ID'ed before and after, if he doesn't reveal them to me in advance. I knew this going in, so for me, this was not really an experiment to give me a chance to show that Ethan could not ID his own before & after files. It was an experiment to give me a chance to show that Ethan is not honest, and was being disingenuous with us, when he claimed he would take the same test he is expecting others to take.
I guess this isn't necessary after all, because I have shown here that Ethan had every intention of cheating, by the fact that he refused to reveal the ID of the files to me and allow me to conduct a proper blind test on him, in order to conduct the test himself and ID them by matching the waveforms to his originals. And by that, that he can not be trusted to conduct a blind test. I also know the test is over now, because you gave him a beautiful "out". He didn't even have to work at coming up with an excuse for me this time, as to why he's changed his mind about taking this test. Because by not going through with the challenge to test him on his own files, he'd just be complying with "yours and everyone elses" wishes to stop going on about this test challenge.
So I guess it's like Xmas in May for Ethan Winer now, with no more "challenges" to be stressed over. If people don't want to hear about it fine, and I'll agree to stop pursuing him to take his test challenge, if he agrees to stop pursuing me or others to take his test challenge!
Merry X-Mass, Ethan! Look! Maybe Santa left a shiny new SPL meter in your stocking...
(BTW, this synopsis of our test challenge trials was intentionally long so Ethan never learns about the surprise ending...)
Good heavens, can you not say anything in less than a quick 1000 words or so?
Yes. Get an education, Jim. It will pay in dividends.
You confuse verbal diarrhea with wit and education...again.
You confuse details with verbal diarrhea. I guess any book longer than half a page is "filled with them verbal diarrhea" to you. And that'll do, JimV. You've contributed nothing to this thread but personal attacks against me. And if you have nothing but that to contribute, if you have nothing to say that will advance the topic of the thread, then go read a book or something. If you did this each time instead of just pointless jabs, maybe seeing a collection of words longer than a sentence wouldn't be so threatening to you.
Have a nice read.
That's twice, Ethan. What the f**k are you trying to do now? Did you not understand Stephen's warning? I wasn't even involved in that thread and you just had to take a cheap shot, didn't you?
What the hell is wrong with you?!
Back off!
I also note the playground requirement to have the last word, even when nothing is said....
Technically, this is digital diarrhea. Unless you use an analog computer.
Also, where do you all find the time to post these long tirades? Don't you people have day jobs?
Nothing is said.
Nothing is said.
Indeed, and it can't progress further until a few people tell us their guesses about which of my files is which. Then we'll have something worth discussing.
--Ethan
Okay. I will guess 1 was demagnetized, 2 was not demagnetized, three was not demagnetized, four was demagnetized. What can we discuss?
Excellent, thanks Stephen! Now, as soon as a few more people chime in we can discuss whether people are really able to recognize the "obvious differences" after demagnetizing an LP when they don't already know which file is which.
--Ethan
Stephen,
With all the claims made about whether or not Ethan's files are 'honestly' produced 10 second clips of the original two lengthy files, is there a need to answer this question without 'certifying' those four files against the two original files?
The reason I ask is that I have listened to Ethan's four files, first through headphones on the PC and later as a CD copied from the four files and played on the stereo. I posted my results on the PC/headphones listening (don't remember which post), but could not tell the difference in any of the four from one another. I was about to post my results on the CD results, but now those four files are under question, at least by some here.
I now need also to listen to the original two files. If anyone can point me to those, to help me save some time searching for those, I'll give it a try, assuming I can download those easily. Otherwise I'll just have to look through the posts if no one remembers where those files are.
If any entrepeneurial spirit at Stereophile would care to make CD's of these files in high rez, I'd be happy to pay to play. I don't have burning capability, and would like a chance to try my hand at these files on my regular 'away' rig here in Cali. I'd be happy to also buy some shwag!
Hook a brother up!
http://idisk.mac.com/musicangle-Public?view=web
They are the two files with the song title "Step Right Up" in the file name. The files are in AIFF format which is apple's version of WAV. The files can be burned using iTunes, which if you don't already have a copy is free.
Thanks for the address mrlowrey. I'm downloading both files as I'm writing this. I will report my findings soonest.
FWIW the 2 files don't sound the same. Number 2 is my preference. I played them back using iTunes through the SPDIF out from a SB X-Fi Pro to a MSB DAC with all the upgrade options. BTW file number 2 shows as 1 second shorter in the iTunes time display.
I'll burn them to CD next. They'll both fit on CD so comparing should be easy.
Did I pass?
I'm looking forward to reading the results.
Downloaded the files.
Downloaded effing iTunes.
Downloaded effing Foobar.
Then I get:
"Windows Media Player cannot play the file. The Player might not support the file type or might not support the codec that was used to compress the file."
Well, it has been plausibly argued that playing a record twice will not produce identical files because of the speed variations due to the TT's motor, and varied interactions between the tone arm/cartridge combination and the record surface. This makes it very difficult to do a proper before and after comparison, as records don't play exactly the same way each time, irrespective of treatments! It's not like copying a digital file.
I have addressed this problem in mulitple postings to this and other forums. The files are not the oriignal standard AIF format, which writes each data word in "big-endian" fashion ie, MSB to LSB, but Apple's newer little-endian "sowt" AIF format ("Sowt" is "twos" written in little-endian fashion.)
If you email me your street address (at john.atkinson@sorc.com), I will send you the WAV equivalents on a CD-R, as I have done for other forum members.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
welcome to the world of computer audio...
You need to open the files in iTunes. Your default must still be WMP. Right-click the file in Windows Explorer and use Open With... then pick iTunes."
I wonder how long it will take before someone posts accusations against you for making up excuses why you can't listen to the files.
And then, after you get the files on CD from John, I wonder how long it will take before someone points out that just recording the LP digitally loses enough resolution to not hear the "obvious difference" after demagnetizing.
Trust me, they'll come up with every excuse in the book to deny the obvious.
--Ethan
there you are with that again...how respectful and classy...
I Listened to the samples, and heard no difference. Maybe I'll try again.
I thought this whole thing about test file challenges was boring everyone, and they wanted to move on?? That's why I produced a synopsis of test file challenges to Ethan here.
Otherwise, what was this about??:
Shouldn't the thread have been closed by that point? Which is why I can't believe after all that's been said, people are still talking about Ethan's bogus files now, and taking him seriously on this!
I thought I already made this clear: it is a waste of time to test Ethan's files for any number of reasons. Here's 4 good ones to start with:
1) Ethan is a member who has been proven to be dishonest and disingenuous in the past, many times over, and can not be trusted to produce an objective listening test, never mind conduct and judge one. If you're not convinced of that fact, then keep in mind -this- fact: he only produced this test for ME, to set me up. Specifically, to "prove" I was not hearing what I was hearing with Michael Fremer's files. Hence the reason the files are named "Frog X", and the reason they all seem to sound the same. Then when I told him I don't accept listening challenges from cowards who run away from every listening challenge I proposed they take, he went around bashing everyone in this group on the head with his 10s test files. Even producing a creepy McCarthyesque list of those who had yet refused to take his listening test (communists all, I'm certain). Going on to insist that if they didn't take his bogus test, that they were "chickenshits" was I believe the term he used (in his later retarded taunts about how everyone is a "chicken", he emphasized this by posting a photo of a chicken). "Chickenshits" who's claims about hearing the effects of the Furutech or the differences in MF's files were invalid, according to Ethan.
And this quote shows how Winer first presented his listening test. Read carefully. It shouldn't be hard to figure out whether he plans to be honest in revealing his results (that is if he ever actually judges the results, see point no. 4):
Ethan Winder wrote:
Then when I told him where he can stuff his doctored 10 second snippets, this is what I got in response:
Notice how Ethan claims I'm "wrong" before I have even taken his damn test!! If that doesn't tell you what his intentions are with this bogus joke test challenge, nothing will.
2) Two members of this board who know how to listen and compared MF's original AIFF files with Ethan's bastardized snippets, both said the originals sound better. That strongly suggests Ethan has a degraded version of the original files, regardless of what he claims, and regardless of whether he did this intentionally or not (and he has a strong motivation to do so).
3) Is anyone listening to the fact that Ethan is claiming his bogus 10-second doctored snippets is the same experience as listening to the actual Furutech deMag? You should, because this is the reason he produced this test. To "prove" that a) the Furutech deMag does nothing (since his files show very little difference) and b) It vindicates Ethan for having failed the challenge to hear differences in MF's files. This was something he showed he was very angry about, when it was suggested that perhaps the old man's hearing was not what it once was. And that it was never what it should have been.
4) ETHAN WILL NOT REVEAL HIS RESULTS. He has stated *on no les than two separate occasions* now, that if I don't take the test, he won't reveal the results. And because he is too cowardly to take FC's challenge, I've made it clear I won't take his vengeance test! Hell, Ethan will not even tell you how many files, if any, are before and how many are after. Just to make sure you get tripped up real good!
Again, it is a waste of time to take Ethan's dishonest test challenge. This set-up was designed as an "attack test". A means by which Ethan could try to vindicate his battered ego. If people are now insisting on taking test file challenges again, then take make it worthwhile and take an honest test file challenge.
Either:
Fresh Clip's (CD demagnetization, FC tells you quite honestly that only one of the four files are after, the rest are before. And unlike Ethan, you CAN trust Fresh Clip to reveal the real results, honestly. Not only has FC proven to be a more honest individual than Ethan, Fresh Clip does not have an agenda to push like Ethan).
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/printthread.php?Board=tweaks&main=61555&type=post
Or:
Michael Fremer's original AIFF files. While not a challenge per se, it is a more honest way of hearing differences with the Furutech.
You can create a blind test out of it, if you insist on that. Just don't process it in any way, if you want to keep it honest. That means don't touch the files, play them as is on your computer (with, if using Windows, the open source VLC player or failing that, Apple's QuickPlayer.) If you've processed them (ie. burning to CD) and can't hear differences, then you definitely need to listen to them unprocessed, otherwise you can't come to any conclusions about them.
http://idisk.mac.com/musicangle-Public?view=web
n.b. If you don't have a player on your system that can play it, VLC is easily downloaded here: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
n.b.2 Ethan, the loudly self-professed "computer audio expert" couldn't even figure out how to install an audio player on his system to play MF's files. Hence the reason Winer did not even bother to try to create his files from MF's originals, but had to have JA convert them to WAV's and burn them on a CD for him! Which he then processed even further, who really knows how.
"I wonder how long it will take before someone points out that just recording the LP digitally loses enough resolution to not hear the "obvious difference" after demagnetizing."
That is so messed up
Good thing MF says it doesn't lose the resolution.
Thanks mclowry. Will the files be downloadable to a PC and work? Sorry if I'm asking before trying as I think my PC won't play AIFF files. Will Quicktime work with AIFF on a PC?
WTL-
Yes, the files work fine on a PC if you use the PC version of iTunes. By Apple version of WAV I meant that it was a file format intended for use with Apple software, not that it was exclusive to the Apple computers platform. Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks again. I'll try to get to it.
LOL, yet another thousand-word essay whereby Toadstool offers up the same lame excuses for why he can't identify the results of demagnetizing an LP record. Give it up Frog, insulting me only strengthens my case against your inept hearing.
--Ethan
Dendrobates Auratus seems to be killing you softly with his words. I admire a frog that takes the time to put in writing. Especially, when its right up your ass. "LOL"
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/naturesongs/frog10.wav
Hi,
Yes, I already mentioned this in an earlier post. After the signal enters the AD converter box, there are analog circuits before it enters the DAC chip.
Also a third party is required to verify the test, the order ABCD, etc. Unless basic protocol is followed, the "test" is worthless. Of course it is anyway if the files have been digitally altered which is easy to do and has been alledged.
So why are some wasting time and bandwidth over a test that does not follow even basic scientific protocol and is totally worthless.
LOL, yet another thousand-word essay
Hi Ethan. Still doing the backpeddle, I see? A "thousand-word essay", and yet you can't refute a single word of what I wrote! LOL! What does that say about your integrity, and that of your fraudulent test?
To prove that your files are BOGUS, I even challenged you a few messages back to let me test you on those files, to see if YOU could reliably hear any differences between them. And what did you do, Ethan? You ran away from me like a scared little boy, once again. Proving that you can't even pass a blind test on your own damn doctored files!
So now that officially makes every single challenge to test your hearing skills that I have ever offered you on this forum, you wormed away from. I truly don't think I have ever seen anyone as spineless as you, who makes up as many transparently lame excuses as you do to try to explain away your obvious cowardice, since dealing with your equally slippery little excuse-generating friend Krueger. So yeah, I'd say that's another thing you two DBT trolls have in common.
whereby Toadstool offers up the same lame excuses for why he can't identify the results of demagnetizing an LP record.
Another empty character attack from you where you're calling me names again, Winer? Good. Your hatred only strengthens my case about your intention to sucker people with doctored versions of MF's files. So you can then declare that "everyone is wrong, that no one can identify the results of demagnetizing, that the deMag is snake oil, that everyone has worse hearing than you, and that Zoroastrianism is the one true religion". And whatever other parts of your sick, crazy, anti-audiophile agenda you're trying to whitewash our group with.
BTW I did identify the results of demagnetizing an LP record, in several tests. So stop lying about me. You're only embarassing yourself by your jealousy of that fact. Never mind the fact that your vengeance test doesn't even pass basic scientific protocols (like what do you CARE about adhering to scientific protocol, eh Whiner?), tinkering with MF's files so that they all sound the same is never going to fool me. Even if it may be fooling others into thinking this vengeance test you devised for me is on the level, and that after all the biased BS you spewed about how no one will get this right, that you would actually announce results that would show anyone "winning" your challenge.
Of course, you already said twice that you wouldn't even tell anyone the results if I didn't take your phony vengeance test. And I've said more times than that that I won't take it. So that means you're wasting everyone's time with this.
Give it up Frog, insulting me only strengthens my case against your inept hearing.
I didn't insult you. But following your usual grade-school logic, the fact that you just finished insulting me and calling me names, strengthens my case against your inept hearing. As if the fact that you couldn't hear the differences in MF's files, when many of us could, or the fact that you're too cowardly to take anyone else's blind test, including your own, while you demand and threaten everyone to take yours, wasn't enough!
If you ever find out, let me know. I wrote a lengthy post detailing several reasons why Ethan's bogus 10-second snippet challenge was, well, bogus. And it didn't even include: 5) not following basic scientific protocol. These files have never been certified against MF's files by someone reliable. (And by "reliable", I mean someone who isn't one of Ethan's DBT church buddies; ie. Krueger, Axon, etc). As for me, I've already looked at them and found they do NOT match MF's files. Ethan has truly outdone himself in the stupid dept. this time, for going to the trouble to set all this up, thinking I would actually fall for this manipulated "attack test file challenge" of his. Can't say the same for others though, who are happily humouring him. Some who sadly, haven't even bothered listening to Fremer's real demag test files!
Does anyone actually think that Ethan is going to be honest and declare that someone won his "challenge", and actually heard the differences between his files? After he went on a loud obnoxious chest-beating rant about how anyone who tests these files could only be "guessing" and no more, and about how no "golden ear audiophile" could hear differences between them, or about how he stated how proud he would be to go "Bzzzzt! Wrong!" if I were to take his test? This is why you do NOT waste your time and bandwidth downloading and participating in a test where the conductor is acting like a braying jackass, thinking it's going to be fair and meaningful. Especially after I already challenged Ethan to his own test challenge, to prove that there were differences between the files, and that his hearing was apt enough that he could hear them blind. Naturally, as expected, Ethan ran away from my challenge to test him on his own files! So what does that tell you about his confidence in his own hearing abilities, let alone his confidence that it is even possible for anyone to positively identify his doctored files?
Speaking of "fair and meaningful", Ethan already stated he would not ever give the results of his test file challenge, if I didn't take the test. Which means it's a waste of time for anyone to take the test. Even if he hadn't said that, if you actually think Ethan will be honest when it comes time to judge listeners, after all he has said here against people who heard the effect of the Furutech, you're either two tacos short of a combo plate, or you know nothing about Ethan Winer and his anti-audiophile agenda. Either way, I have a bridge to sell you, that you're sure to get a good deal on if you act now.
Ethan showed he was hurt by the fact that he could not hear differences in MF's files where others clearly could. So all anyone is doing in participating in Ethan's test challenge is compensating for his failings, by stoking his massive ego.
When do we learn which of the 2 original files is "demagnetized" and which is "magnetic". I'm not interested in any results from "edited" 10 second snippets. I didn't listen to them anyway. If someone is going to take the test it is illogical to use any files but the ones that Mike Fremer provided.
The truth be told I initially was unimpressed with the music itself. However, after listening to both files numerous times I've developed a fondness for it.
Who is it and what LP is it?
The song is "Step Right Up" from Tom Waits' Small Change released in 1976. A wonderful record and on the plus side this thread brought back memories of the first time I heard it, back in 1976.
I don't think anyone needs to answer Ethan's question at all. I was just throwing guesses out there because I wanted to see how Ethan would respond. I should have known better.
It's Tom Waits....clearly you don't know who he is because that voice is too distinctive for anyone who knows him to not recognize it. It was a live to two track analog tape by the great Bones Howe...from the 1976 album "Small Change." Drummer: Shelly Manne, Sax: Lew Tabackin. Please tell me you know who they are....
My plan is to do this again with two different copies of the same NEW LP. I will record one demagnetize and record the second and post on my public site. Then the skeptics can both listen and measure. I've been too busy to monitor all the sites that have been discussing this but I've been told some have "theorized" that the first play shaved off the highs and that accounts for the measurable differences. That's absurd so of course I'm asked to jump through hoops to "prove" what everyone easily hears....I'm willing but of course they'll come up with some other hoops and excuses....
That's not a well-designed experiment.
Take the first LP, record it, and then after a given delay time, record it again.
Take the second LP, record it, demagnetize it, and after the given delay time including the demag, record it again.
Post all 4 files, clearly identified as to their handling.
If anybody can successfully DBT a difference for the first pair, then Mike we've proven you wrong about successive plays causing no audible difference. If nobody can hear a difference between them, then we have evidence that says that we should agree with you about that.
If nobody can DBT a difference among the first pair files based on the first LP, then the second pair of files related to the second LP become interesting, and they should be DBTed the same way.
At least we get reliable evidence this way, and we address the major controversy about the meaning of any positive results.
I've been away doing real work at things like AES conventions and such.
Can someone enlighten me as to what this is about?
There are some issues playing any LP. After you play an LP you must let it recover. Yes. Really.
This is the main problem in testing anything with an LP. LP reads ARE destructive, at least minimally, no matter what we would all like or prefer, so at the very least one would have to somehow record the LP, then demag it, then re-record it, then somehow remagnetize it, and then RE-RE record it. Until you can get 1 and 3 to match, there is no way to do a test.
Michael Fremer claims that placing a demagnetizer under an LP record changes its sound, and apparently some people believe him. You don't really need to know more than that.
--Ethan
Actually, you hijacked this thread a long time ago. We don't need to know anything other than that.
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