Hi Geoff

Here again is where my concerns are with your posts. It doesn't look like you are doing but talking about in room systems. Recently you said you are using in room speakers again after a 6 year break, but then as fast as you say this you are saying you only have a headphone system for listening and testing. Sir, how can you make guiding statements if you are no where near an in room listening system? I'm trying to be nice about this but, it's like getting guitar lessons from an instructor that has no guitar.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Geoff

I'm not going to go back and look, and I appreciate you clearing this up. My friend, we listen constantly to these setups and are constantly tuning them to uncover more and more music. We don't listen 6 years ago and throw out tweaks to the public as if they are real cures for anything. This may be the practice of many audio designers (I don't know) ,but we are a quite a bit more serious than that. This week for example we are teaching wood shops how to voice tone and how to pick out the best sounding rough cuts before going through preping. Two months ago we picked some of these pieces of wood and listened to them, now two months later after voicing we are listening to our results of the different voicing procedures. That's serious listening and one that goes on daily constantly finding the very best of flavors with all the materials used in the tuning systems and with stock systems, and all the products sent to us. As far as I know, no one in the industry goes to extents we do, or at least so I am told. We build the tests recording studios all the way through the "tunable room" so no distortion goes uncovered.

This day we are tuning in "KebMo" while voicing in some very high tech floorstanding acoustical products made from Brazilian Pine, Low Tone Redwood and Argentine Pine. We can take the individual instruments and shape them anyway anyone would ever want them to sound in their home. This to us is tweaking, and development. There is no room for any of our listeners to say "Do you think I just forgot how to do all of that? Not bloody likely. lol." The music here is in a 24/7 30 some year on going tweak.

This is so different from what you are doing I not only think you would be shocked but also really enjoy this. When you can make a drumset sound this real it is really something to behold.

So in these settings we can hear the affects of cork (all kinds of cork) or any other material that has been and continues to be thrown our way. It's really a blast to be actively doing this but it does require staying extremely sharp and current. Current as in even hearing changes during the days natural sonic changes. There's a big difference from tweaking something 6 years ago, and doing it every day for the last 6 years. Can you see why we are looking at you and shaking our heads? We are so much more involved in the process than what you are doing. We're not trying to be mean we are just trying to let your form of tweaking not be associated with our level of tuning.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Listeners

I figured if I gave it a little time the side tracks here would stop and we could continue, they have and I will.

If you go back I was talking about some things to do to find out what your space is doing, and your speakers in your space.

Many listeners try to setup systems that fight instead of systems that play. We get these ideas in our minds of the perfect systems but many times we do this with our eyes, and the thought of reaching certain levels of audiophile classes. We also try to be joe engineer and run our tests, but this can lead to a sound that is less than the best. Many listeners have struggled because they have systems in their living rooms with furniture all around and are forcing floor standing speakers to do things they can't because of the furniture. A satilite sub system would be much better for many rooms that use furniture and the other way around. Designing your room is really not so hard if you think about the system logically. Think of your speakers as creators and think of your room as the acoustical amplifier. Every time you add a piece of furniture to your room your changing the formula. You may be one of these measuring guys and built your room according to a size recommended. I have bad news for you. Put the chair in your room and everything has changed, your formula is no more. The soundwaves don't know the difference between a chair and a wall. They only know what they do as energy looking to increase or be used up. Sit in your chair with your chosen furniture or lack of. Look at your walls, openings, flooring, fixtures, speakers and equipment. This is your room. This is what you have to work with and the more you understand the sound of your space the more of a chance you have to make great sound. If your sitting in that listening chair and you have furniture in your room and the speakers are on the floor firing into that furniture, what do you think the system is going to sound like? lets find out.

time for another field trip

If you have your speakers setup already and furniture in your room, I want you to get 3 feet from your speaker while it's playing. Is the music coming directly out of that speaker? If your room is playing the music instead of your furniture you could sit 3 feet from your speaker and not be pulled into the sound of the speaker, you would instead hear the room making the sound. The closer you can get to the speaker before the sound jumps into it the better your room is playing the music. Now if you are hearing the sound coming directly out of the speaker, how far away from the speaker do you have to get before the speaker disappears, or does it ever disappear? If the speakers don't disappear than this means you are hearing something else other than the speaker dictating the sound. If your one of those guys who think you are killing the room allow the speaker to play and you can hear the music coming directly from the speaker when you get near it, it is time to rethink your theories about sound. Your hearing what ever the soundwaves are being affected by. Time to rethink what you are listening to. Your hearing everything in the room and everything in the room has it's own thoughts about what the room should sound like. Some things are burning sound, and other things are vibrating with the sound and yet other things are bouncing the sound. To learn about this spend some time walking and putting your head at ear level and move around the room with the music playing. Frightening isn't it, but the materials in your room are not lying to you. If you pay attention while doing this you are going to hear the music take on tons of different sounds the closer you get to the objects. If you move back away from that object you will start hearing it's affect on the entire space. You may even want to take an object out to hear how much of an affect. This is why I like to start with empty rooms add as little furniture as possible.

One last thing for the moment. Sit in your listening chair and look at everything that is inbetween you space wise and your speaker. The floor maybe ceiling maybe a wall maybe something behind you or off to the side. maybe furniture, a carpet, could be many things that you have between you and that speaker. For those of you who like to measure nows your chance. Get out your test equipment and set it up 18" from the front of your speaker and get a picture. Now go around the room and measure 18" from every piece of furniture with the mic pointing at the furniture with the same source playing. If you have half way decent test equipment you are in for a shock. You think that you can put a mic in front of a speaker and tell what's it's doing and one at your chair and tell what your ears are hearing, fat chance buck-O. Take some time and really measure what your hearing. Take that mic around and test the sound of the furniture. If you know what your doing with this test above a Radio Shack engineering degree, this might be the last time you use that equipment to give you anything meaningful. Go ahead test the sound of your furniture up close even 3 or 4 inches and tell us what you get. This is what you are hearing. This is your stereo. Now, walk up to your foam and traps and defusion panels and get that mic nice and close. this is what you are hearing. Get it close to that carpet, and that over stuffed chair. For those who have put away testing toys, first good for you, second do this same test using your ears. Get up close to all these things in your room and hear what they are contributing to the sound.

ladies and gents this is your stereo

Your room and the objects in it are what you are listening to. This is your stereo. Everything before the point of your room is your source. Your stereo begins when you play your room.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Costin

Looking at the pictures I see a lot of things but what are you hearing?

let me tell you why I say this

Just now in my room I went in with a CD case and set it on the floor and heard it. It shifted the tone of the cymbals up. I took it out and came back in with a pillow about the size of the stuffed animal I saw in the pic and the sound got cloudy. This of course is my room and setup. What did you find these types of things did to your sound?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Yepper on that one! Cd cases in a listening room can be deadly. However I recently did a room that had the cases sitting on the window ledge (only a few and they were not all plastic) and the client moved them to the open closet up on the shelf, and when I came in the next time the sound fell apart, so I asked what he did. We put those some 20 or so back on the window ledge and the music was back. We ended up fine tuning things more and the cases again left but this was an eye opener for the listener. The window needed to be treated with one of my magic snake oil toys, but most importantly it taught the guy to take into account the whole space and everything in it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Costin

If your happy with it that's all that counts :)

As far as my client, he decided that the CD cases in the end were adding a plastic sound to the stage and were causing his speakers to act funny, but that was him. As for me a plastic sound is noticed when I set a CD case in the room, but that is me. You are coming up with a totally different set of results, and that is you.

As far as number 4, it sounds like your pretty happy with what you have so I can only be happy for you.

I've learned long ago not to step on another man's system unless they ask :) If someday you ask I'll be happy to jump in, until then (if ever) I'm happy that your happy.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Guys

As the field trips keep rolling, and you've taken the time to listen to the objects in the room you can hear how everything affects everything else. You'll also notice that if you have furniture in the room, when you stand up there is more energy standing than sitting down. This brings me to perhaps the most important part of the room, the upper corners. Your upper corners are the rooms speakers. Because the chair and speakers and maybe other objects in the room (hopefully not too many) are lower your upper corners become the most open pressure building areas in your room. Some people put things on their walls to help the sound but I have found that if you start with the corners and then into the room, you will gain more control over the sound then if you start on the walls first. This doesn't always work because of climate and build conditions but it's a good starting place when voicing.

So if we review, we listened to what the best sound in the house is, we looked at the best wall in the room, the best sounding spot for your speakers, the objects in the room and now the upper corners. If you started with an empty room (good for you your way ahead of the curve), and simple system and a chair and you are learning how the upper corners sound, you have enough to start to be dangerous. A few more steps and you are going to have a sound that will rival the best of the best. Again I want to say an empty room is way ahead of a room with furniture in. One of the first things that happens when I do a redo for anyone is getting that room empty. For those of you who have a spare room but you thought it may be too small, let me tell you. A huge room packed doesn't have a chance against a smaller room empty. There are a ton of guys that have spare bedrooms that are perfect for killer sound. And don't think that a small room means small soundstage cause in many cases it means the opposite. A bigger room many times will have so many compromises that it takes forever to work through the problems whereas most smaller rooms build great usable pressure and are easy to manage. Don't get me wrong I love the sound of a big room done right, but a big room done not so well will leave you missing a ton of music.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Toledo, thanks for your comment. If people got this, their listening would improve by huge margins.

Which brings me to the next field trip.

How do you know if your system is fighting the room?

There's a simple test to take to tell you if you have the potentially right speakers and if they are sitting in the right place in your room. I say potentially because this could also mean something else is wrong with your system other than the speakers. Play the music and stand in front of your speakers (get as close as you can before the music jumps in them should be a foot or 2), now walk around your speakers to hear if they sound the same or not. If your speakers are fighting the room you will hear the sound change, if your room is playing the speakers you will be able to walk around them (1 or 2 feet away) and hear very little change. If the speakers are being played by the room you will also when you are off to the side or behind them be able to see a soundstage. If your speakers are fighting the room you are missing tons of music, if the room is playing with the speakers you should not have any off axis problems. Having off axis dips, pitching or distortion is a bad system design and something is not right somewhere in the chain.

This is a huge point and a major flaw many get trapped in. Your room and your speakers should be playing off of each other. If they aren't the sound pressure that should be growing is not up to it's full gain and this means part of the content is distorted.

Most speakers that have heavy dampening are built to play in room sizes and conditions they are designed in. You can have the greatest heavy speakers in the world but if they are not in a room that is some what similar to the designers they may not be performing up to par. This is important with all speakers but deadly important with speakers using more than 2 drivers. If you have multiple driver speakers again walk up to them, put your ear at each driver level (tweeters included) and move around that speaker at the level of that driver. It should not get weird (going out of pitch) sounding. If it does your speaker is out of tune with your room.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

When your looking for a system or pair of speakers you might be in for a surprise. I know people hate to admit buying the wrong thing, but the truth of it is there are many speakers and systems out there that don't like the room they are in. A stereo system should not be a constant fight. Man do I ever get the stories of the high end audio nightmares. I bought these great speakers and now something is wrong with my amp, or my system is so revealing now I can't play the music. I hear it all, and there is usually a truck load of defense on someones favorite component, or a story about how they can't move around their furniture, or the "it sounds good when I play this but horrible when I play that now, it use to play that recording great but not any more". It just keeps rolling on and so do the people who claim their systems do it all. Well once you get past all of that or if you haven't started yet, take a look at the gamebook first. Complicated systems are complicated to make sound good. If you think your going to setup a complicated system and are not setting up your room as a "real" listening room, be prepared to defend your system....a lot. The only one fooled is the listener themselves.

your not going to cheat sound pressure

If you have racks and equipment on the front wall and your listening nearfield and have the speakers out far enough away from that front wall you might have a chance for the waves coming out of the speakers to form and stimulate the room, but if you have speakers against the same wall with the equipment and racks, ouch, your in for a battle. That's your front stage pressure zone and if you mess it up you could easily loose a lot of the musics body. You could also be creating an off axis problem for your speakers, especially bigger ones.

Once in a while I will see a plaster room like the rack against that front wall to help with audio glare caused by the walls, but more cases than not having the speakers and racks on the same wall is a no no.

here's how you can help this, maybe

If you have to have them on the same wall try moving the rack system out 18" from the wall. I know I hate giving exacting formulas too. But, a usual rack height is 36" and 18" (half of the rack height) is most of the time enough to get that pressure building again. Just an idea, not writen in stone.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Thanks Guys! For those who are sending messages I appreciate it :)

"michael what kind of setup do you like"

I like them all cause it gives me a chance to play, but I focus a lot on the guys who have spare rooms. A lot of guys have a spare bedroom upstairs and these make for perfect listening rooms. I'm not crazy about the sound of carpet so if you can get rid of it or make yourself a floor on top of the floor you will be much further ahead. If you have drywall on wood studs, don't put that extra layer of drywall on, don't do it. This is an audio myth and will make your sound much worst. "where do they get these guys lol". The best sounding rooms are the ones that give tone (flex). Your listening to tones and you should have a room that should recreate these with as much range as you can get. So if you have a drywall wood stud room with wood floors your ahead of the game. If you have plaster walls, consider the expense of adding the studs and dry wall. It will cost way less than a component and you'll get 3 times the return. If you want tunable walls that's yet another level in music.

Ok, so you have your room and you've been reading this so you've been paying attention to how to tell if your speakers are the right ones and all that stuff. Well time to start listening and here's what I like. I like using the back wall as my tonal support system. You may be a midfield guy and that's cool but for right now I'm going to layout extreme nearfield.

At one time I was the biggest audiophile rack company so believe me when I tell you this, if you can go with a simple setup and not have to use a rack but instead platforms you are going to smoke a system that is using racks. I have been setting up 2 component systems over the last few years that distroy multiple component systems. Keep in mind I'm talking spare bedrooms here that range from 9 x 9 to 14 x17 rectangular. In my setup I have a stripped reciever and stripped CD player and that's it. It sits on a low profile platform that frees the space in front of me for acoustical tuning. One interconnect, that's it, an amp, a player two speakers sized to the room and it makes magic. You could put the most reviewed high end audio stock product in this room and this little system will, has and does smoke it. There is no reason why yours would not do the same. Amps and simple players have come so far that they compete easily against the higher priced ones and for my money beats up on the over built products. As with every claim though that goes on in this industry it's good for you to challenge what I'm saying, and I invite you to do so and read what the people who have converted their systems say as well. In fact the exact system I use is being used by people on this forum as well as on mine and I'm sure they will be happy to give you a report and history of where they have been and why they have gone to these simple low mass tunable systems.

Stop a minute and look through system galleries. What do you see? Speakers on either sides of racks close to the front wall. Now picture speakers not distorted by a rack and place in the most energized places in the room. For me it's extreme nearfield with the speakers pulled right up on me as far apart as they can stand and me using that front area for acoustical tuning with floorstanding acoustical products and or other tuning toys. Oh my, that's serious! Cleaning up that space gives my speakers a chance to work and my space a chance to become the speaker. You could sit in one of these setups and produce soundstages that will blow your mind in resolution, detail and 3D layering that typical setups can't even start to do.

Go back to looking at those galleries. See those huge hoses connecting the products. Picture a single low mass connector, just one instead of all that mess. See those big boxes. Picture just two simple music producers, two power supplies, that's it. No drain on your electric or confused pull from multiple supplies. Your whole system is on one duplex plug, that's it. Now if you like to sit there and watch equipment that's a different hobby, what I'm talking about is making yourself a no nonsense music machine without any of the fat. Nothing extra to distorted the sound. You sit in this listening chair and hear everything and have the ability to change the sound to any flavor you want. You are also able to play music that could never be played on and over built system.

Kinda gives a little different picture to the listening hobby doesn't it? It goes from looking at stuff to listening to a place that is custom designed to play musical notes. Instead of throwing speakers in a room and hoping, you design the speaker to fit the space ,and make it able to tune into that space. No more plug and play, no more cables all over and boxes built like tanks and sounding the same way. We're talking about making a system where every thing has a purpose and design. A formula one not a dump truck.

This is what I call high end audio. It's not a display of equipment, it's a fine tuned musical instrument. It's not a place for music storage but a place of music listening. A place of more wood than metal and plastic.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

The upper corners are the starting point, the next place are the midseams. If you measure halfway from floor to ceiling where wall meets wall or half why from wall to wall where the walls meet the ceiling you will find your next spot for room loading. Corners first then the midseams. These areas are your rooms volume controls. In a rectangular room you have 12 of them. 4 upper corners, 4 mid-corners (half way between floor and ceiling) and 4 upper midseams. If you gain control of these pressure origin zones you can do a lot of sound shaping and make things a lot easier for your speakers and your amps.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Yep, I think it's a really bad idea to deaden the walls. Control them yes, deaden them no. I have a client that happens to have one of my rooms and next to one of the other guys rooms where it is dead (over built walls) and to play music in the two is shocking. The over built room is nothing but pitchy sounding and very out of tune, even your voice sounds really bad in there, like someone put your voice in a blender. He was pretty amazed at how screwed up the "....." next to the tunable room. We've done this test many times but it's nice to find a hobbyist do it completely independent than us.

Again this is a case of listening and knowing. When I do a room, I don't start throwing stuff at it. That's a really bad approach. Each room has to be voiced with care. For example, another one of my guys told me about these bowl things so when I got there to his place we did a before and after. When you put the bowl in it stuck out like a sore thumb adding a brittle sound to the music and slightly pitchy. It may indeed work in some rooms, but the 3 I have tried now the results were the same. A difference yes, a good one well "?" we didn't experience anything but glare and frequency grouping, but maybe this is something someone likes who knows. Once more this is a case where people get attracted to a change over a serious listening session that one lives with where you can sense things that give a plus maybe but also a minus. I also want to address dot type products. Any dots including my own are recording sensitive because of how they work. So if your going to adjust them every recording then this might be a cool thing but if you have tried to do this for every recording like we did it got old pretty fast. Dots, any dot type products or DIY's act like capos on a guitar. One song it might be the right setting or good for the song and the next completely out of pitch for the song. Picture these as putting your finger on a string of an instrument, that's what your doing in your room using these. Things are fine if you keep playing the same song after tuning but when you change programs things get screwy fast. It's just the nature of these types of tweaks, and I make them too, but it is understood that these are meant for playing specifics. If your wanting a product that is able to adjust like a PZC you might get a lot further in the tuning department rather than a fixed approach. Fixed go basic, tune go variable (full range variable).

A big problem with tuning is people indroduce things that are a pitch or focusing on only a small range, this will screw you up long term. You want to go full range in your tuning. As Toledo says open that baby up don't shut her down.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Geoff

When was the last time you looked at my site? I treat every area of the room down to the inch. You are stepping way off the cliff on this one my friend ,and people have been very polite to you in trying to let you know when your stepping outside of your expertise, but you keep throwing out statements that are missleading. I would back up just a little and take a look before jumping this far out there. I do the RT Pillows, Sound Shutters, PZC's (pressure zone controllers), Space Cones, all on wall and floorstanding versions. I do Wall Boards, Tuned Floors as well as Tunable Rooms with wall adjustments every 16" on center. I do Ceiling Clouds and custom Pressure Point Tuning Devices so hold on when trying to put me in a box ok? Please don't go saying I'm against treating anything cause I treat everything. If you bothered to read through this you would see I've been doing things step by step during which you and others keep jumping in the middle of with side tracks and diversions, rudely I might add. But don't go comparing your level of tuning against mine or as I said before it will end up in a showdown. And I "will" smoke you!

So please before making a statement like "So, how can you be FOR treating upper corners but AGAINST treating the walls?" you do your homework. I do treat both but not randomly and half A**ed, or with some audiophile BS from guys who don't even have a room setup for listening like yourself. So I ask you politely again to make observations based on your own listening experiences but don't come up and make statements that are totally not true. I've done far more tuning and tweaking than any designer in the history of this biz (and have been noted for it) so please do your research before throwing things out to me and others who deserve more care with their sound.

I welcome people to come up and see what I have done www.tuneland.info and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and if there is a disagreement or challenge I will be happy to tell anyone if I have tested these points before and what the conclusions were. I also am happy to try things others have that I haven't. I take this very serious cause I don't want and never have wanted to miss anything. But I won't tolerate dart throwing, which only comes from people who are non-doers. If you or anyone was doing what I do you would and they do come to the same conclusions as myself, so I don't buy this ramdom BS stuff. If your going to make statements you should put on your ears first.

Sorry for being tough but the BS is very thick in this industry and I'm one who doesn't put up with it, nor do I want to be associated with it. If someone wants to do a test session we set that up and let it be what it is. You've seen this in magazines and on Tuneland and on TV. I try to be as fair as possible and care for every note played. If I haven't done it I say so and then go do it. I'm here to help the process not continue to see it on it's downward spiral, or stuck in audio circles. I know to many some of the things I say are different from what they are use to like variable tuning vs fixed. I get it, all change takes time and is hard for any industry. I lot of toe testing has to happen for people to get comfortable, that's what Tuneland has done "the toe testing", now it's just a matter of sharing.

But what would be nice of you is to do your own thing, where people could appreciate your style wit and own experiences, and not step in with statements that are only there to add mudd to a perfectly clear pond. If you have questions cool lets talk them through, tests cool lets do them, but constant interuptions with false statements are only going to cause the industry to move backward and not forward. I would prefer you to say "thank you michael for all your research and development" as is what I am use to, or some type of challenge, but not off the wall comments that are based on you wanting to cause disruptions so you can hear yourself talk.

How many more times are you going to cause a stall while you present things that you yourself are not actively listening to Geoff? It's hard enough when someone comes up with their temporary fixed solutions, but at least they are actively listening and on explorations path. If you don't ask, if you don't listen, if you have nothing to challenge with then why oh why do you throw these statements out without thought or substance. You need your own phpBB dude.

Please understand I don't dislike you, I just don't know what it benefits to do this. Wouldn't it have been much easier to ask "michael do you treat the wall also?"

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

"Both the corners and the walls, because they are producing unwanted acoustic energy (in the air), need to be damped."

This is a misleading statement. All the parts of the room and what is in it are what you hear. If you create distortion that's what you will hear. If you create your room to be a natural amplifier it will have no distortion. People who dampen the room dampen the music content. People who control the room allow the music content to play.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Toledo

We have got to make a reality show out of this.

"I have been meaning to ask, why did you move to headphone listening?" lol OMG lol, I'm dyin. This makes it all worth while. Ok get this.

Cameras are rolling, here's Geoff ready to pull all this stuff out of his hat sitting at his computer waiting to jump in about setups of rooms and the question comes up "I have been meaning to ask, why did you move to headphone listening?". Geoff turns, looks at headphones, looks on screen at wikipedia, typing comb filtering. Commercial break "Dr Dre Beats" headphones with Lebron playing one on one with Geoff , Geoff looks to camera, close up, "best room I've ever heard", pull back to dunk. Fade to Lebron "that dude can play", end commercial to see Geoff typing away with big smile on face "I'll show these guys".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Geoff spinning on turntable adjusting the cartridge....got it....no.....got it....no.....got it this time.....no.....

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Catch

There are two answers. One the DIY one. Take a 2 x 4 and put it across the window (make it a tight fit), wedge a piece of good sounding wood between it and the glass. Or visit http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ me and we'll hook you up.

I hope that wasn't an ad. The ones we make sound really nice and you can adjust the tone.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Geoff, I'm very sorry you feel that way. I can only invite you to come experience for yourself. We have been talking about puting a new facility in Vegas for people to visit and explore. We're hoping to have it up in 2016 in time for the CES. We will also have one in Minnesota the follwing year. For now we have been using the one in Chicago. Hopefully there will be tunable rooms for people to visit again before long Chicago, Lacrosse, San Diego, Vegas, and maybe even over seas. I do have people visit here but I am packed inside and out with T-room projects and the new Tunable Speaker products, so I'm not crazy about folks coming through my mess. After the products are up and going maybe I could put a temp T-room in my workshop. But, as I said before we look at the listening as being the proof.

As far as this comment, "I treat everything," I understand he's just being argumentative or possibly posturing. He has no idea what the term ACTUALLY means..."

I don't think you would say this if you knew me and what we do so this kind of stuff I need to just blow off. Not to be rude, and now I feel bad that we tried to joke with you, cause I can tell you really don't have any idea who we are or what we're doing, and the seriousness in which we do it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

As I always say talk is something that anyone can do. Going back through some of the threads I see a pattern. Some making statements but not willing to take it as far as listening. To me this speaks volumes and states loudly the truth. Also the part that I keep needing to go back to are someones own words.

"There is no doubt that speakers, when I had them, are much more capable soundstage-wise than headphones; that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible."

this again is Geoff talking

He's saying that "speakers are much more capable soundstage -wise". That says to me he is not able to (with his headphones) get the whole soundstage.

Then he says "that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible." So he's saying that "no doubt" speakers do more and then follows it up with the challenges that headphones have in competing against the "much more capable soundstage".

To me this isn't about which is better or worse, it's about someone A) who doesn't have an in room system B) saying an in room system is much more capable. This says that a designer is making judgements for people that isn't actively "doing" in room listening, and the listening he is doing, is not as good as in room listening.

When I look at a lot of folks in this industry, and some who have bought in, and are now stuck. This is the type of logic they use to reinforce their position. "when I had speakers" and "6 years ago". This is scary to me as I can't imagine one day without the active testing as all can see me doing. For me it's not what people say but what people do. I think we all are seeing this on these pages and as painful as it is may be it's good that some of these people are exposing themselves as not being as quite up on the game as they are claiming. Or are showing where they are at within limits. When it comes to me and the tune and the facts are in, the one thing the industry knows is I "AM" a doer. People can try to put whatever spin they would like but all they have to do is click on www.tuneland.info and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and see that over 120,000 people have read about "the tune". 18 people as I write this are reading about "the tune" right now. Many of these people are starting to move away from the old "what they thought" and are moving to something they can do. I totally and absolutely encourage people to try it all (meaning any tweak or piece of equipment) they want to. Free country right. You will hear me say "this is my experience" with the tweaks, but I'm not here or anywhere to throw road blocks infront of "doers". I am however in a position that I need to stay true to the findings and the people that are finding "freedom" with their audio systems.

Listeners deserve to have better listening available! This is why I had all the reviews I have, and why many are using my products and why I'm here now after refining the design of the different parts of this industry. It's time to move people to a more flexible High End Audio. I'm not saying that these pieces of equipment that have been built in the past are not great if a person can mate them to a room or conditions. What I am saying is that this has been a challenge for the industry and I have found why. I haven't been beating on the door for these last years as I feel the industry needed to take it's course it's way. What I have been doing though is exploring the audio signal and making sure I had the answers before beginning the next push. The clients I had and have are people who wanted to go beyond and when they tried tuning this provided them a way to do this.

Why this would upset anyone is way beyond me. The only reason I can see is because they are really "not doing". If they "DID" tune they would come to the same results that all of us who are tuning "DO". I see and for many years have seen a lot of people finding a platform in this hobby (many well known) to be experts "in their own minds" and have fooled many listeners. All you have to do is look at the huge audio graveyards of all the products that have been close but not quite. These products (components and speakers)are failed atempts? Lets again be honest guys, how many times have you been someones prototype. You buy a product and two years later it is old news. Do you not see the problem? Lets flip this script. You buy a guitar and it gets better with age, how is it that this industry has to sell you something new, like the guy who has to buy the new model car every year so people can see he has the latest lines (shape). Stop and look at the audiophile journey. You have bought more audio equipment than cars. You keep trading to a new model that is giving you a different picture, but be honest it is not neccessarily a better one. We hear a different sound and are attracted because it's more recent and has the current reviews and status, but is this really the hobby you started with? Most of the people I talk to came to this hobby to be able to play their music at a higher level of performance. None of them came to this hobby to "NOT" be able to play their favorite music. They, you and I came here to see how good our music is, to get into it's depth, it's meaning, it's performance. If the best this hobby can do is say "my system is so revealing it shows how bad these recordings are" my friend you are in the wrong hobby. You should have a system that shows how good these recordings are not how bad. Who sold you this false bill of sell? And why are you standing for it, and even throwing money at it? Again, I don't want to be speaking out of line, open your audio closet and view the graveyard for yourself, or see how many times you have used AudioGon because you were sure you had found it. Or ask your wife how many times the UPS man has been to your door.

Guys, I'm listening to a $129.00 system (electric components), doesn't this make you the least bit curious? A guy who owned some of the most expensive high end audio equipment in the world, and has designed the most revealing audio rooms in the world and he is choosing these products over the big dollar ones. Aren't you wondering why? Why would he choose these components to make the best sounding most flexible systems in the entire hobby? Is he over stating his hand? Come listen or try it yourselves and find out. What have you got to loose but pride by taking your spare room and making it tunable and putting it up against your high end products? Am I attacking high end products? No, I'm attacking their lack of flexibility which you all have experienced.

There's more, and when Geoff or whoever are done disrupting I'm going to share it with you.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Setting the stage is a beautiful thing! As these threads roll on I don't really see the need to make this an us or Geoff thing cause these are two different levels of tweaking. One being a fixed higher mass tweak and the other being a low mass tune. One having one sound and the other being variable, able to produce that same sound or any other sound.

I don't want to discount any one sound including Geoff's if that's a place someone once to go. I do personally move away from the fixed deader sound that Geoff is pointing toward but we need to give him his creative space as anyone elses. I do disagree that someone can or should produce in room acoustical products without actively being an in room listener, but again if someone wants to go that route, there's lots of these roads to travel down.

I don't object to being a speaker "snob", and would have to say thanks. As I am a friendly guy, I think I probably am a bit of a snob when it comes to sound. Not a snob about money and the high end audio climbing up the ladder sense as the reviews have pointed out, but a snob about finding all the variables available in audio both pro and home. In the last few days I have recieved wonderful comments about being willing to come here and back in the audiophile mainstream. I'm glad to be here and hope that more of the on lookers will join in and give their voice to this great hobby of ours. Hats off again to Stereophile for making this possible.

This is the hobby. Listening to music and raising our systems to the highest levels of enjoyment possible. I think the more people read they can see my agenda, a variable listening hobby. As good as the plug and play world got it's clear that there is another level to reach. It's going to take work, but the end results are proven. Variable high end audio systems are the next level. How long this takes depends on the people involved. In my visiting here and seeing the responses shows both the resistance to moving forward and the desire others have to take that step. I believe that desire is strong! I believe the listeners in this hobby have great ears and have always been pushing the envelope. Even though we had some patches in getting to know each others positions, I feel the hobbyist is not willing to settle and as when I entered this hoppy with the RoomTune treatments and saw the excitement then, that same excitement is ready to take yet another step closer to the absolute sound.

I've always felt myself as a bit of a cheerleader for the listener, and at the times I thought the industry was getting off track a little hoped the day would come for the listener to say "it's about the music". I really do believe in the core of the listening heart and as this hobby and industry progresses it will be the music first and the form second. Shocking as my proclamation of variable tuning may have seemed, those of you who have taken the time to look can see that the roots are deep and as of 1989 have been tested and aproved by the industries writers and experts. It's been my joy going to these experts and being that cheerleader, but my bigger joy being with listeners. Watching the listener get closer to the artist are my greatest rewards as someone who grew up in the music biz.

Even though there are these little road blocks that come along the way in this movement toward the best sound possible the industry and hobby, pro and home and live will grow closer. Variable tuning will make this happen. Halls, studios and homes are going to become more a family as the hobbyist's will becomes more resolute for perfection. The common bond between the instrument, studio, hall and home is "tuning". The question gets asks all the time and all the way back to the begining of this hobby "How do we get closer".

how do we get closer to live

The answer was not found in tech sheets, it was not found in making products massive, and it was not found in killing the music. The answer to getting closer to live is doing what live does. Tune the instruments, the halls, the equipment together so that they may act as "one". We have done this and all of you can too. If you have to wait till the dust settles the "tune" is not going anywhere. If this drags on past my days so be it, it doesn't change. If it takes the collective will of the audiophile and engineer years and decades the answer will still be there when they wake up. All you have to do is ask yourselves one question. It's a two parter, why does every recording sound different, and why does every system setup sound different? We have tried to fix a variable truth with fixed rules we have made up instead of following natures course. We keep trying to point to one spot and make it fit in a nice little box, and then we wonder why this box is not doing everything we want. No more, the next step is to make that box work on every level, every varied level. The interesting part to tuning is, it is actually easier than the fix form of getting a fixed sound. Someone doesn't have to do anything they don't want. Variable tuning is not a must it's a choice, and having the availability to make that choice or find any thousands of variable positions or setiings. Instead of buying tons of systems you simply dial to your sound on one system.

The only hard part of variable tuning is "the willingness of the fixed thinker".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune