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geoffkait
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Wire directionality, how bad is it?

People wonder all the time, is wire really directional and does it really affect the sound? Skeptics say no, wire is not directional, citing alternating current as the "proof" that wire can't be directional since the current alternates 60 times per second back and forth along the cable so that the net loss of gain is zero. Unfortunately if wire directionality is REAL then audiophiles are in a lot bigger trouble than they probably realized. The reason they're in deep kim chi is because if wire is directional that means that all internal wiring in components is directional, all speaker internal wiring, all crossover networks are directional, capacitors, inductors and resistors are all directional, not to mention all cabling, including stranded conductors, all speaker cables and digital cables. Oh, and fuses, of course, as well as transformers. Possibly power cords, too, and house wiring. Even stranded wire is directional since each strand is drawn through a die prior to being spooled up. It is that final die that determines the wire's directionality. The crystal structure is deformed so that the surface and even below the surface the crystal structure favors one direction over the other. Like stroking a porcupines back it's easier to do in the direction the quills are pointing than against that direction. Now hard would it be to keep track of all the wires as they come through the final die? Would it kill the manufacturers to ensure that all capacitors, wiring, inductors, transformers are installed in the proper direction?!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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could you show us, please

Hi geoff

Could you show us please, with a pictorial, or tests results and description on your personal or test system of the event of wire direction?

I would be interested in doing a real time test again, and describe what is being heard. Could you do the same for us and take us through your testing in real time?

thanks, looking forward to your testing methods and results

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Yes... and no

Some cables I've heard claim to be and I can hear a difference, some not. Some are directional by virtue of thier design. For example, a grounded shield should be grounded at the source only to avoid ground loops and noise transfer - especially with digital sources. So if you are using matching cables that means each in the chain should be hooked up the same. I'm more inclined to believe stranded cable might conduct with less distortion in one direction than and OFC long grain solid core wire.

I've heard it with my own ears, so yes, direction can matter. It's not always going to be the case, regardless of how they are advertised. With that said, if a shielded cable doesn't claim to be directional, reterminate it correctly.

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Data regarding wire directionality

The only data I'm aware of is over on the HiFi Tuning fuse web site. The data sheets show measurements of various Hi Fi Tuning fuses and other manufacturers' fuses in one direction then the other, also with and without cryogenic treatment. Of course I'm not referring to the direction of the shield. Any cable or wire will exhibit directionality, I.e., it will sound better one way than the other.

Enjoy.

http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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did I miss something

Hi geoff

All I saw was a promo sheet from the manufacturer of a fuse company. Did I miss something? Are you going to perform any testing yourself?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Are you volunteering?
michael green wrote:

Hi geoff

All I saw was a promo sheet from the manufacturer of a fuse company. Did I miss something? Are you going to perform any testing yourself?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/[/quote]

Why would I wish to perform any testing myself? What good would that do? I am not an independent testing company. You know about third party testing, right? The data sheets I linked to are the results of testing by an independent testing company the name of which escapes me. Did you think it was a set up? Maybe you didn't see the data, who knows?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Oh Okie Dokie

geoff said

"Why would I wish to perform any testing myself? What good would that do?"

Oh sorry I thought you were going to get into this a little deeper.

never mind, sorry I butted in

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Doh!

Well, obviously I must have to test some things you know to find out if things work and to develop an idea. Doh! What I am saying is I prefer listening tests over measurements. I developed some products during that period of time when I didn't have a system. Yeah, I know what you're thinking, "How is that even freaking possible?!" Please don't send the test police after me.

Addendum: I was the Government witness for testing a billion dollar controller to pilot communication system and wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies so I suspect I probably know more about testing than you do.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

and wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies

What exactly? Waterboarding, sleep deprivation or the use of drugs on so-called "terrorists"?

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I'd tell you if I could

Even the names of the programs are classified. If I told you I'd have to shoot you.

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Too bad you have no gun

You replaced it with a sling about the same time you got your Walkman.

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Okie Dokie again

geoffy said

"Why would I wish to perform any testing myself? What good would that do?"

followed by

"Well, obviously I must have to test some things you know to find out if things work and to develop an idea. Doh! What I am saying is I prefer listening tests over measurements."

okie dokie

So what type of listening tests are we going to do on wire directionality?

Cause all I saw was a paper on fuse "measurements", was there more? So were you posting those measurements as your listening tests?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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That's pretty funny
michael green wrote:

geoffy said

"Why would I wish to perform any testing myself? What good would that do?"

followed by

"Well, obviously I must have to test some things you know to find out if things work and to develop an idea. Doh! What I am saying is I prefer listening tests over measurements."

okie dokie

So what type of listening tests are we going to do on wire directionality?

Cause all I saw was a paper on fuse "measurements", was there more? So were you posting those measurements as your listening tests?

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/[/quote]

Only a recording engineer would ask such a question since audiophiles have been doing this for DECADES but I'll entertain the question by saying that it's quite easy to test wire directionality, as least for certain things. Then perhaps you can make generalities and draw conclusions about wire directionality as I have done. I wait with bated breath your results. Lol

To test for wire directionality for a FUSE turn system off and reinsert the fuse in the opposite direction. Then turn system back ON and listen to see if the sound got worse or improved. Move to the next fuse if you have more than one fuse and repeat. Do this until you are pretty sure all fuses are in the correct direction. If you aren't sure whether the sound improved with a particular fuse or not don't worry, just move to the next fuse. After you have auditioned all fuses, repeat the entire process if there was one or more fuse the direction of which was questionable the first time around. For interconnects that are labeled with ARROWS make sure the arrows of each cable are in the same direction. Then reverse the direction of both interconnect cables. Listen to see if that new orientation is better or worse. If cables are NOT labeled with arrows sometimes you can rely on the way the printed symbols and text appear on the cables so you start off with the two cables being in the same direction, if you see what I mean. Otherwise it would be quite difficult but maybe not impossible. For stranded cables it's a little trickier since I'm not entirely sure if all of the strands within a cable are actually laid down in the same direction.

So, I'm confused - you saw the HiFi Tuning data on fuses but you didn't know what it means? Or you think I was intending to use those as MY tests? Are you for real? I posted those because that data is the ONLY data on the web with respect to wire directionality. Geez!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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I'm open to the idea..

That a higher quality fuse MAY improve sound.. MAYBE. But the idea that flipping around 3/4" of wire that, by definition is a lower quality conductor than any other part in the system except for higher value resistors is absolutely bad shit crazy. My Sonic Craft modified (Yes, Jeff personally and myself actually modified it over the years) was the most revealing amplifier I ever owned - and I used it with the hyper revealing midrange Chorus 706 with titanium tweeter. No fuse I ever used ever effected the sound.

And we are being told this by a guy that uses a Walkman as his reference analog rig.

Sigh...

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Et tu, gossamer?
jgossman wrote:

That a higher quality fuse MAY improve sound.. MAYBE. But the idea that flipping around 3/4" of wire that, by definition is a lower quality conductor than any other part in the system except for higher value resistors is absolutely bad shit crazy. My Sonic Craft modified (Yes, Jeff personally and myself actually modified it over the years) was the most revealing amplifier I ever owned - and I used it with the hyper revealing midrange Chorus 706 with titanium tweeter. No fuse I ever used ever effected the sound.

And we are being told this by a guy that uses a Walkman as his reference analog rig.

Sigh...

Ah, another stubborn hobbyist thirty years behind the times. By the way your reaction that it's only a little piece of wire is nothing new. Stubborn mossbacks having been using that tired argument for years. Nice to see Michael has another Sockpuppet. More grist for the mill. :-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff, I cannot reverse my cables

Since all connectors are of the XLR type.

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Score one for RCA connectors
iosiP wrote:

Since all connectors are of the XLR type.

But you do see the advantage of being able to establish which way the conductor goes, right? Sorry to hear of your predicament. Score one for RCA type connectors. It would be pretty to think the manufacturer of your particular cables were hip to the whole wire directionality thing but they probably aren't. What brand are they? It should not be terribly difficult to find out.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Oh yes they know a lot about metallurgy

And all their cables are marked for directionality, even the speaker cables.
The company is Siltech.

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Siltech
iosiP wrote:

And all their cables are marked for directionality, even the speaker cables.
The company is Siltech.

You say even the speaker cables are marked for directionality. I would think speaker cables are the first thing to get marked for directionality.

It seems only FAIR to point out I do not use ANY speaker cables, interconnects or power cords. That's even BETTER than having ALL SILTECH cabling.

Geoff Kait
Machinadynamica.com

michael green
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show and not so much tell please

Hi geoff

It looks like you have gathered a few fairly scooled listeners from what I have read from Jgossman and Costin, both of them and myself if I can be included are doers. We all have built our own goodies and obviously have worked with wire. I'm sure we have had findings that are similar and different based on our experimenting and studies.

Wouldn't it be wise of you to not just talk about what you think or what you quote others doing, but take us through your own testing and give your methods and results.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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settling

geoffy

In your rant on me, you forgot to mention how long the person should wait before flipping the fuse or cable.

And thank you again geoff. Anyone who would like to look at our testing of cables fuses and all the different parts in the audio chain you can find our testing on www.tuneland.info and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . We conducted a wide range of direction testing and in different environments and conditions.

I'm also glad that the little fella also points to my pro-side which has helped me personally to explore the entire chain. But for those wanting to fall for geoff's little game I'm happy to repeat myself. I opened my first high end audio store in 1981, and built my first heath kit stereo system in 1973 at the age of 13 (guitar amps at the age of 14).

For my own use I've not looked at the stereo world as being different from any other part of the chain, and have stayed involved in the entire chain as much as I have had time for, from making the sound, producing it, designing the parts and playing it back.

I was introduced to the discrete audiophile part of the hobby by name in 1980, but before I knew what the "high end audiophilia" hype was about I was doing tube kits as well as owning Mcintosh, Marantz, Technics, Pioneer, Akai, Revox, Altec/lancing (JBL) Quad, Dalquist, Crown, Advent and a host of others, but I didn't really associate them with the audiophile club, till I saw my first "high end audio" store. I'm so into home audio that I owned a store myself a year later. If it has to do with sound I usually jump in with both feet. BTW when I opened this store I was also the house engineer for the Atlanta Symphony. Best of all worlds I would say if you wanted to understand audio. Keep in mind I was on tour and in the studios up until the store opened during my teens. I always felt that my experiences were fairly complete seeing that all I did was music from the age of 9 or so, and having Doc Watson as my cuz as this kids example, but geoff knows better I guess.

So geoff what is it exactly you are trying to put into question about my involvement in home audio or music in general?

It appears that you are trying to paint the "he's a pro guy picture" so "he can't be one of us". What you fail to realize is I've been a fairly big part of the whole chain since I was a little feller, and you keep promoting me as such, thank you!

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Michael, looks like we are both born in 1960

Me, on August 2nd (so I'm a Leo). What about you?

michael green
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WOW!

I was born 1959 august 1st, How cool is that!

michael green
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That's cool indeed!

Too bad I had to live in a commie country for the first three decades of my life, methinks that if I had your chance to develop my passion we would now be competitors (or maybe not, we would rather co-operate).

BTW, would like to suggest some tuning devices based on my findings (unfortunately I have no way to produce them but I did test samples). Please give me a "secure" mail address, no need to cry out loud on a public forum.

P.S. May I get some of your hair? I look more like a bowling ball (beard excepted, of course).

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So I'm still kind of hung up on the fuse thing..

I've seen a few audiophile fuses (and not purchased them because more than a few dollars for a 250V 5-15 amp fuse is just well, a little silly) and they are never marked for direction. Why?

All directional cables I've ever seen are marked while non directional ones are not. This just tells me that most likely they are shielded cables with a grounded shield. The exception being unshielded Kimber Cables that, at least the ones I've owned, ARE NOT labled, but do in fact sound a little different one way than the other, even though they shouldn't. That's not audiophilia, that's engineering. So, do tell, give me one instance of where you personally have heard this effect. Meaning, "Back in 1995 or 96, I was amazed that flipping the fuse made my Arcam Alpha integrated sound like a set of McIntosh seperates. I was amazed."

Inquiring minds really do want to know. Part of the science of subjective listening is when you can do something expecting a change and saying to yourself, "No, that's bullshit. This change didn't do anything." And yes there really is a "science" to subjective listening. And like more objective sciences, the first step is a healthy scepticism.

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email

Hi Costin

If you go to TuneLand and look at any of my posts you'll see my email there. I do have to tell you though that I will probably not even make a dent in my own ideas, let alone start working on others, but you never know when something takes off how big a movement in an industry like this there will be. I wish there were scores of other tuning companies. I think my biggest problem has been copy-cats and not original competitors. I have so many people knocking off my products I could retire if I only got a penny on the dollar from them LOL.

I get alot of people sending me their ideas but I always try to encourage them to start their own thing. However if someone has their own tunable product and it works with ours I'm all for promoting them. My goal would be as I said would be many tuning companies hit the scene.

You may not know this but we have over 250 designs in our bag of tricks. Isn't that nuts LOL. I have designs in a few other industries as well. But would be my pleasure to see your ideas and thoughts.

I'll tell you a huge area where the industry could use some good designers is drivers and tweeters. They are so over built it's crazy.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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yep

yep I agree!

"Inquiring minds really do want to know. Part of the science of subjective listening is when you can do something expecting a change and saying to yourself, "No, that's bullshit. This change didn't do anything." And yes there really is a "science" to subjective listening. And like more objective sciences, the first step is a healthy scepticism."

There are so many variables at play it really comes down to doing and methods of doing. It has never made any sense to me, someone making absolutes without even being involved. It's like the guy who puts strings on his guitar that completely fights against his guitar and personal playing style. Audiophiles are full of these quick must do fixes and when you read some of their reasoning it cracks you up. All this talk about something that is vibrating and sounds a little different from the next. It gets koo koo after a while.

For example, I've never heard two fuses, the same model, from the same company sound the same in different components. And here's the part that gets me. Put on a piece of music, any music, listen to it. Let it play over night, same volume, and come back the next day and listen to it. If you have a revealing system the sound will be completely different the next day. Go a step further and let that same recording play on repeat for a week, don't make any changes. Each day come in and make a list study of how different that music sounds from one day to the next. If that systems soundstage does not grow in size each day, you have a system that is terribly out of tune. If something is in-tune it will keep expanding in size. If something is out of tune the soundstage will stay the same or shrink as time goes on, and there will be frequency peeks that develop.

With fuse changing and direction an important thing to look at is the front to back and side to side growth. A ton of times listeners will judge things inside the rooms walls or speakers width. If a system does not already go way outside the rooms walls there's a problem to start with and making changes inside of that small space really isn't saying much. I started a thread on here that was about "your not hearing more, but focusing on less".

I would say that 90% of the time when I listen with audiophiles they are spending their time making things smaller, instead of going after the real size and space of the recording. Baffles me really. I say this because many materials audiophiles use shrink the sound, and the times I have personally used the high end fuses my soundstage was cut by more than 50% easy. It sounded like things just got 2D and overdosed on windex. Didn't matter which way were flipped the sound still would jump from 30 some feet wide to barely outside or mainly inside the speakers. The harmonics sounded like the instruments were squeezed instead of breathing. I read the accounts people make and I'm hearing something quite different from what many of them are saying, then (and this is the important part) when I go to the demo the sound is so squeezed and tilted up that the instruments sound completely metallized. I think it's no wonder people are down on digital, look what they're doing to their sound. They keep tilting things up thinking they are making it cleaner or more transparent, but look at what Costin said a while back about some CD treatments that made holes in the stage, and then go back and listen again to what comes up missing in the overall of the music with some of these High End products. Many times the bottom structures fall apart and the true body of the instrument comes up missing and replace by this almost plastic coded sound.

Personally I think listeners sure be very sceptical of this stuff out there and the people pushing it.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Healthy skepticism
jgossman wrote:

I've seen a few audiophile fuses (and not purchased them because more than a few dollars for a 250V 5-15 amp fuse is just well, a little silly) and they are never marked for direction. Why?

All directional cables I've ever seen are marked while non directional ones are not. This just tells me that most likely they are shielded cables with a grounded shield. The exception being unshielded Kimber Cables that, at least the ones I've owned, ARE NOT labled, but do in fact sound a little different one way than the other, even though they shouldn't. That's not audiophilia, that's engineering. So, do tell, give me one instance of where you personally have heard this effect. Meaning, "Back in 1995 or 96, I was amazed that flipping the fuse made my Arcam Alpha integrated sound like a set of McIntosh seperates. I was amazed."

Inquiring minds really do want to know. Part of the science of subjective listening is when you can do something expecting a change and saying to yourself, "No, that's bullshit. This change didn't do anything." And yes there really is a "science" to subjective listening. And like more objective sciences, the first step is a healthy scepticism.

It is a little easier to prove this wire directionality to yourself with an ordinary stock fuse in your amp or speaker. That way you remove the additional variable of the shielded cable from the equation. Just reverse any fuse and see how it affects the sound. What are the chances that any particular fuse was inserted incorrectly. I reckon about 50%. So half the time when you reverse the orientation of a fuse the sound will improve, the rest of the time it will worsen. With the fuse in the correct direction the sound will be relatively more open, coherent and smoother. With all fuses in the correct direction this effect will be very pronounced. Once you have this experience with a common fuse you will be less skeptical about the proposition that ALL WIRE IS DIRECTIONAL. I did this experiment about twenty years ago myself when I had a lot of fuses in my system. Aftermarket fuses are often marked for direction, that's true, but they can also have other innovations that common fuses do not enjoy such as vibration damping, RFI/EMI absorption, higher purity and or better materials for the wire and end caps, you know, all depending on the manufacturer. The Audio Magic Super Fuse, a fuse I'm familiar with, employs liquid filling around the wire inside the glass for both vibration control and RFI/EMI absorption. Actually, the Audio Magic Is not marked for direction so one must try the fuse in both directions and pick the one he prefers. One reason why some, not all, aftermarket fuses are NOT marked for direction is simple. Either the manufacturer doesn't think his particular fuses are directional or because the manufacturer understands that in some cases it's difficult to,tell the direction of the current flow in a component, this was the case actually for my recently departed headphone amp. You have to try the fuse in both directions. But Hi Fi Tuning fuses are marked for direction, so are Isoclean fuses, don't know about the others, but as I said it's best to try any fuse in both directions anyway, you know, just to be sure. IIRC Synergistic Research claims their fuses are not directional due to their Tesla treatment which applies a million volts to the wire. A little tent of 3M AB 5100S would be nice for RFI/EMI absorption and an additional covering of mumetal would be helpful to deal with large transformer magnetic fields.

You wrote,

"Inquiring minds really do want to know. Part of the science of subjective listening is when you can do something expecting a change and saying to yourself, "No, that's bullshit. This change didn't do anything." And yes there really is a "science" to subjective listening. And like more objective sciences, the first step is a healthy scepticism."

Healthy skepticism means that one probably should not form strong opinions one way or the other until he has actually done the experiment himself. A real skeptic is someone who is curious and willing, no, *determined* to INVESTIGATE the issue, rather than, you know, sit back on his couch and make pronouncements. As you say, the first step is healthy skepticism. The next step is INVESTIGATION. Otherwise you wind up with Unhealthy skepticism.

You also wrote,

"The exception being unshielded Kimber Cables that, at least the ones I've owned, ARE NOT labled, but do in fact sound a little different one way than the other, even though they shouldn't. That's not audiophilia, that's engineering." Huh? They reason the Kimbers sounded better in one direction than the other is because wire is directional. Not for any engineering reason. Hel-loo!

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Geoff Kait
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Goodness, you certainly have a way with words

Michael wrote,

"Personally I think listeners sure be very sceptical of this stuff out there and the people pushing it."

God damn, The Pusher
God damn, I say The Pusher
I said God damn, God damn The Pusher man

LOL

You're pushin' too hard, uh-pushin' on me
You're pushin' too hard, uh-what you want me to be
You're pushin' too hard about the things you say
You're pushin' too hard every night and day
You're pushin' too hard
Pushin' too hard on me (too hard)

LOL

If you would get off you butt and INVESTIGATE these things instead of being an UNHEALTHY skeptic, making wild pronouncements and accusations from the comfort of your BarcoLounger, you might get to the bottom of these things. That's the difference between a real skeptic and a pseudo skeptic. I hate to judge these things too harshly but you appear to be suffering from the Backfire Effect, the more someone tries to straighten you out, the deeper you dig into your hole of denial and anger. You're starting to remind me of the dude from 12 Angry Men. You know, the one who had his mind made up already and who wouldn't listen to any of the evidence.

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Break on Through to the Other Side

Michael wrote,

For example, I've never heard two fuses, the same model, from the same company sound the same in different components."

That information, as juicy as it may be, is irrelevant to the present debate as to whether wire like fuses is directional.

"And here's the part that gets me. Put on a piece of music, any music, listen to it. Let it play over night, same volume, and come back the next day and listen to it. If you have a revealing system the sound will be completely different the next day. Go a step further and let that same recording play on repeat for a week, don't make any changes. Each day come in and make a list study of how different that music sounds from one day to the next. If that systems soundstage does not grow in size each day, you have a system that is terribly out of tune. If something is in-tune it will keep expanding in size. If something is out of tune the soundstage will stay the same or shrink as time goes on, and there will be frequency peeks that develop."

That's not exactly news either as every card carrying audiophile knows that the sound changes data to day, week to week, even hour by hour. Break on through to the other side! Who would not agree wholeheartedly the sound is BETTER late at night and early in the morning? And perhaps they would agree that weather conditions affect the sound, you know, high pressure systems vs low pressure systems. And who would argue that humidity affects the sound? Maybe even solar flares, who the hell knows? If you hadn't been off in TuneLand for the last thrity years and not paying attention to what was going on in the world you might have picked up informations fields and how they affect the sound, how telephone books and books in general degrade the sound, how barcodes on everything from beer bottles to food you bring INTO the house every day degrade the sound, and all the bar codes on CDs. All of this CLUTTER, these things that produce Information Fields, degrades the sound! The sound, the real sound is in the room all the time, you just can't hear it properly or completely because the information fields are interfering with your sense of hearing. So, no wonder you can't keep track of the sound day to day, week to week, hour to hour. Break on through to the other side!

Made the scene, week to week
Day to day, hour to hour
The gate is straight
Deep and wide
Break on through to the other side
Break on through to the other side
Break on through, break on through
Break on through, break on through
Hey hey hey hey
Hey hey hey hey

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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relevance

Geoff says to my statement.

"For example, I've never heard two fuses, the same model, from the same company sound the same in different components."

That information, as juicy as it may be, is irrelevant to the present debate as to whether wire like fuses is directional.
_________________________________________

Now geoff is saying the sound of fuses is irrelevant.

But notice something else geoff says. He agrees that the sound changes as time goes on.

So the question is how does he or anyone who is doing "quick" directional changes on anything know that they are correct in their hurried state of listening? They can't. If something taks 3 or so weeks to truly begin to settle, this rules out being able to make a clear judgement on the quick.

This is a common trick that audio tweak guys have been doing to listeners for years. It's also an easy trick to get reviewers, who many times don't have the time for things to settle, to sign off on ideas that yes make a change, but have know idea what the settled on going results really are.

Thousands of audiophiles over the years have bought into the fast tweak, only to find themselves with a system that is so bogged down by signal blockage that when they start to finally remove the tweaks they find that their systems have been in sonic prisons. Many times entire music collections get distroyed from audiophiles biting off on bad fixes.

I recommend before a listener bites the bitter fruit they do some studying on the people pushing it. And also do sample testing before commiting your system or collection to something you may not be able to get back out of.

I buy a lot of music collections, go through them, then donate the ones I don't want to my local store and keep the ones I do. If not I would have easily over 30,000 or 40,000 CD's. More than I would ever get to hear. Sometimes these collections come from audiophiles and when I open the box to go through a few of them if I see green around the edge or a white glued on disc in the center or other rings or glued on foil, I usually pass on the purchase. I do keep enough of the modded CD's around to use for my own testing, but if the tests fail I know what to be on the lookout for.

Sorry, but when someone in an industry like this one doesn't see the relevance of info concerning the issues, I have to question their relevance. For myself personally if a designer has to put up animal pictures or weird quotes to use for their arguements and avoids the questions that are common for anyone to answer, they are in question for me.

Another thing that I look at when talking to someone is their audio system. I see two things here when talking to May & Geoff. One May doesn't talk about or show her system, and two Geoff's reference system is a Sony Walkman.

Is this enough to make a person concerned about their advice or schooling? That's up to the reader.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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That's really interesting

"Addendum: I was the Government witness for testing a billion dollar controller to pilot communication system and wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies so I suspect I probably know more about testing than you do."

What date was that, exactly? And where, as in what building in what city did this take place in? You say, "witness," so it must have been a court proceeding or a government hearing. And you mention it, so it can't be secret.

You revealed the controller-to-pilot system cost one billion dollars, so that can't be a secret program, either. You disclosed its cost - a nice round number. What is the communication system?

Not all of your work could have been classified. What are some of the programs you worked on?

Those are expensive endeavors. You must have been well paid. Why are you doing little hi fi accessories these days?

I assume somewhere along the line some of what you say will be findable in the usual search engines.

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connecting the dots

Yep, doesn't add up for me either. I see nothing in geoff's designing or talking that lines up with his claims.

this is a good example geoff said

"Addendum: I was the Government witness for testing a billion dollar controller to pilot communication system and wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies so I suspect I probably know more about testing than you do."

Yet, there isn't a shred of this type or style of writing in his threads on here. Asked to give a method he gave nothing but animal pictures and spins. Geoff has been asked repeatedly and by many to explain but if you read any of his threads they all turn into some type of spinning game.

And here's how he uses the spins.

geoff said

"wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies so I suspect I probably know more about testing than you do"

Not a mention of audio testing, the labs or the general testing info. Look at his threads directly asking him questions, and you receive no answers. Geoff is very selective to talk about something that he can put a spin on, but not about the actual questions being asked. Some of these threads run 9 pages of spins without any methods or programing.

Then the issue of dates and age. It's maybe out there somewhere but I have yet to see a mention that geoff was with NASA. He has been asks about his credentials and technologies, and he points to pages that disagree with his projected claims as if they support what he is saying. I looked up the NASA data and they don't subscribe to his belief system. His response was "I was never in R&D with NASA", but why did he point to their page than for backup?

If you take the time to follow his spins you run into him certainly not being someone the Gov would call to write programs of "advanced technologies".

On here I have seen geoff give a piece of advice and it worked to a degree, but it was something that was a tweak from many years ago developed by someone else and geoff acted like it was his own "tweak", and geoff misstepped with the pros and cons of the tweak, and I know the Gov doesn't write that way, even based on my own limited interactions with them. When geoff did send out his own tweak the results were not favorable, but it took someone else to point out that the testing might be flawed. Again if you are a "test procedure writer" or experienced testor for anything high tech you have to cover the do and don't. Read any Gov tech doc or NASA and you will see they cover both and don't use absolutes where there are none. I'm talking procedure writers here not politicians.

Geoff says he hasn't been at NASA for many years, and based on his non-descript manor I would guess the mid 70's if at all. Geoff is 71 or so but, keeps info like this as hidden as possible as to show he is advanced and relevant. But does a NASA guy who writes programs and testing procedures for the government have websites like Geoff's? Does someone with this training, design products that are extremely low tech and push them as high tech without the proper papers as you would expect from NASA or the Gov? Does a guy of this background post pictures of animals and give humpty dumpty poems, instead of info?

And does someone with this level of training spend over 15 years presenting the same spins from forum to forum, with the same questions being asked of him and the same types of spins in response?

Lastly, does a guy who writes "high tech programs for military" and "advanced technologies" use a Sony Walkman from the 1980's as his high tech high end audio referencing equipment?

The dots don't connect. I wish they did so we could get and be on the same page, but not only do the dots not connected but this advanced guy won't even reference with those who are advanced in listening and technologies.

For myself, I can't even imagine someone like this giving advice on cable directions.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Michael, there were a few goverment programs

Involving drugs, radiations and exposure to pathological germs. Some of these were performed on unsuspecting civilians but some were performed on volunteers that accepted the risk of becoming brain-washed for the benefit of democracy (and a consistent financial compensation).
Looks like Geoff was among them!

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the whacko audiophile farm

I think it was about 3 or so years ago I got a call from a reviewer pal who I haven't heard from in quite some time. He was getting me caught up on his life. It was great to hear from him. About 15 minutes into the call he asked me a question. He said that him and some of the other audio guys who have been around forever were talking about the idea of changing the name from "audiophile" and "High End Audio" to something else. I started laughing, but he was serious. I said really, and he told me he felt that those names have been so closely tied to loose audio whackos for so long that hardly anyone is interested in taking the audiophile serious anymore. I think he even told me that the CES changed the name of that part of the show. I haven't checked.

I told him what I thought, which is basically someone needs to put these jokers on notice and high end needed to raise the bar on proof of sound amoung other things. But the biggest thing that I said I felt needed to be done was for the audiophile community to tie themselves closer to the music industry, and not sit out there like an island filled mostly with unhappy old people, or at least that's what it looks like from the outside in.

I've always felt that the shows had an awful lot of strange rangers hanging around that have little to do with enjoying music. Audiophiles created their own little "whacko audiophile farm" some where I'm sure and have been raising this crop. Or maybe it's mad-cow, heck I don't know lol.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Wow! I mean Wow!
corrective_unconscious wrote:

"Addendum: I was the Government witness for testing a billion dollar controller to pilot communication system and wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies so I suspect I probably know more about testing than you do."

What date was that, exactly? And where, as in what building in what city did this take place in? You say, "witness," so it must have been a court proceeding or a government hearing. And you mention it, so it can't be secret.

You revealed the controller-to-pilot system cost one billion dollars, so that can't be a secret program, either. You disclosed its cost - a nice round number. What is the communication system?

Not all of your work could have been classified. What are some of the programs you worked on?

Those are expensive endeavors. You must have been well paid. Why are you doing little hi fi accessories these days?

I assume somewhere along the line some of what you say will be findable in the usual search engines.

At it turns out all of your angst and anger is quite unfounded. The FAA system in question was unclassified. As I said it was the controller to pilot communication system. What communication system?, you asked. Lol. The system in question VSCS is actually located in all FAA centers of which there are approx 23 (not a round number) at last check. I was working for Marin Marietta now Lockheed Martin at the time that was what we call the Prime Contractor on the (round number coming up) 30 Billion Dollar contract (over thirty years) to upgrade the National Airspace System. The test procedure was six (another nice round number) huge volumes and took three months 24/7 to complete. Happy?

I have a sneaking suspicion you would be unsuccessful searching engine-ing your way out of a paper sack.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Comprehension Fail

Michael wrote,

"Now geoff is saying the sound of fuses is irrelevant."

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I never said any such thing, you big galute. What I actually said was that fuses make a big difference and that's precisely why they need to,be inserted in the correct position. I also pointed out that no fuse is better than any fuse, even one inserted in the right direction. You Know, as I now have with my Sony portables. Follow?

Geoff Kait
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Stand up comic
iosiP wrote:

Involving drugs, radiations and exposure to pathological germs. Some of these were performed on unsuspecting civilians but some were performed on volunteers that accepted the risk of becoming brain-washed for the benefit of democracy (and a consistent financial compensation).
Looks like Geoff was among them!

Looks like we have a stand up comic here. At least when he can stand.

I imagine that was supposed to be another of those one two punches. :-)

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Geoff Kait
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Witch hunt, part 2, in which Michael kicks it into high gear
michael green wrote:

Yep, doesn't add up for me either. I see nothing in geoff's designing or talking that lines up with his claims.

this is a good example geoff said

"Addendum: I was the Government witness for testing a billion dollar controller to pilot communication system and wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies so I suspect I probably know more about testing than you do."

Yet, there isn't a shred of this type or style of writing in his threads on here. Asked to give a method he gave nothing but animal pictures and spins. Geoff has been asked repeatedly and by many to explain but if you read any of his threads they all turn into some type of spinning game.

And here's how he uses the spins.

geoff said

"wrote the test procedures for many high tech programs for military and other Government agencies so I suspect I probably know more about testing than you do"

Not a mention of audio testing, the labs or the general testing info. Look at his threads directly asking him questions, and you receive no answers. Geoff is very selective to talk about something that he can put a spin on, but not about the actual questions being asked. Some of these threads run 9 pages of spins without any methods or programing.

Then the issue of dates and age. It's maybe out there somewhere but I have yet to see a mention that geoff was with NASA. He has been asks about his credentials and technologies, and he points to pages that disagree with his projected claims as if they support what he is saying. I looked up the NASA data and they don't subscribe to his belief system. His response was "I was never in R&D with NASA", but why did he point to their page than for backup?

If you take the time to follow his spins you run into him certainly not being someone the Gov would call to write programs of "advanced technologies".

On here I have seen geoff give a piece of advice and it worked to a degree, but it was something that was a tweak from many years ago developed by someone else and geoff acted like it was his own "tweak", and geoff misstepped with the pros and cons of the tweak, and I know the Gov doesn't write that way, even based on my own limited interactions with them. When geoff did send out his own tweak the results were not favorable, but it took someone else to point out that the testing might be flawed. Again if you are a "test procedure writer" or experienced testor for anything high tech you have to cover the do and don't. Read any Gov tech doc or NASA and you will see they cover both and don't use absolutes where there are none. I'm talking procedure writers here not politicians.

Geoff says he hasn't been at NASA for many years, and based on his non-descript manor I would guess the mid 70's if at all. Geoff is 71 or so but, keeps info like this as hidden as possible as to show he is advanced and relevant. But does a NASA guy who writes programs and testing procedures for the government have websites like Geoff's? Does someone with this training, design products that are extremely low tech and push them as high tech without the proper papers as you would expect from NASA or the Gov? Does a guy of this background post pictures of animals and give humpty dumpty poems, instead of info?

And does someone with this level of training spend over 15 years presenting the same spins from forum to forum, with the same questions being asked of him and the same types of spins in response?

Lastly, does a guy who writes "high tech programs for military" and "advanced technologies" use a Sony Walkman from the 1980's as his high tech high end audio referencing equipment?

The dots don't connect. I wish they did so we could get and be on the same page, but not only do the dots not connected but this advanced guy won't even reference with those who are advanced in listening and technologies.

For myself, I can't even imagine someone like this giving advice on cable directions.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/[/quote]

This is the kind of witch hunt that happens when you pit a Dayton High School graduate against a rocket scientist. Not that it is entirely without its humor. At least for me. Remember, I said this was going to be fun, these discussions on Sterophile Forum, but I didn't say for who. Lol

Let the inquisition begin.

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Geoff Kait
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Branch Dividians against the world
michael green wrote:

I think it was about 3 or so years ago I got a call from a reviewer pal who I haven't heard from in quite some time. He was getting me caught up on his life. It was great to hear from him. About 15 minutes into the call he asked me a question. He said that him and some of the other audio guys who have been around forever were talking about the idea of changing the name from "audiophile" and "High End Audio" to something else. I started laughing, but he was serious. I said really, and he told me he felt that those names have been so closely tied to loose audio whackos for so long that hardly anyone is interested in taking the audiophile serious anymore. I think he even told me that the CES changed the name of that part of the show. I haven't checked.

I told him what I thought, which is basically someone needs to put these jokers on notice and high end needed to raise the bar on proof of sound amoung other things. But the biggest thing that I said I felt needed to be done was for the audiophile community to tie themselves closer to the music industry, and not sit out there like an island filled mostly with unhappy old people, or at least that's what it looks like from the outside in.

I've always felt that the shows had an awful lot of strange rangers hanging around that have little to do with enjoying music. Audiophiles created their own little "whacko audiophile farm" some where I'm sure and have been raising this crop. Or maybe it's mad-cow, heck I don't know lol.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/[/quote]

A lot of folks that still think the way they did back in the '80s seem to have a deep seated fear of the unknown or at least things they're unfamiliar with. And that's why they mock tweaks and what they perceive as wild or outrageous ideas. A lot of folks were convinced the sun revolved around the Earth and that the Earth was flat. And I hear tell natives deep in the forests of some god forsaken islands are totally convinced that when someone takes their photograph they are trying to capture their soul. There's no explaining why so many folks in this hobby are like your friend, and wish to ago back to the safety of the '80s, when everything was black and white and you didn't have to think too much. Not only has the Genie been let out of the bag but people don't seem to even realize there was a Genie in the bag to begin with. ;-)

Geoff Kait
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We said it was going to be fun, we just didn't say for who.

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Catch 22

Michael wrote,

"So the question is how does he or anyone who is doing "quick" directional changes on anything know that they are correct in their hurried state of listening? They can't. If something taks 3 or so weeks to truly begin to settle, this rules out being able to make a clear judgement on the quick."

Ah, good play, the old Catch 22 move. Audiophiles can't hear it if they listen too quickly because they can't react fast enough, they're in too big a hurry, and they can't hear it if they wait longer - say three weeks - because their audio memory doesn't last that long. Well, played, Maestro!

Yes, I'm being sarcastic and making fun of you. ha ha ha

Geoff Kait
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Now I get it! Everyone else is wrong.

Michael wrote,

"Thousands of audiophiles over the years have bought into the fast tweak, only to find themselves with a system that is so bogged down by signal blockage that when they start to finally remove the tweaks they find that their systems have been in sonic prisons. Many times entire music collections get distroyed from audiophiles biting off on bad fixes.

I recommend before a listener bites the bitter fruit they do some studying on the people pushing it. And also do sample testing before commiting your system or collection to something you may not be able to get back out of.

I buy a lot of music collections, go through them, then donate the ones I don't want to my local store and keep the ones I do. If not I would have easily over 30,000 or 40,000 CD's. More than I would ever get to hear. Sometimes these collections come from audiophiles and when I open the box to go through a few of them if I see green around the edge or a white glued on disc in the center or other rings or glued on foil, I usually pass on the purchase. I do keep enough of the modded CD's around to use for my own testing, but if the tests fail I know what to be on the lookout for."

It's pretty obvious you're way ahead of all the thousands of audiophiles who actually can hear these differences quite rapidly without all the futzing around. You're actually building a pretty good case for your own deafness. Reminiscent of The Amazing Randi, who also believed in some stressed out double blind controlled testing, believing like you that audiophiles can't hear. Ironic huh?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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You didn't reply

What was the date and the venue of the hearing you mentioned your testimony in?

What were the dates of your employment at Marin [sic] Marietta?

Here are my search efforts at google. Since I'm so hapless then you supply me with the exact search string I should use instead to find something independent.

1. No results found for "'geoff kait' Martin Marietta" [Same for Marin]

2. No results found for "'geoff kait' Lockheed Martin"

3. Three results found for"'geoff kait' VSCS" - only from audio web sites, not even about “VSCS”

"At it turns out all of your angst and anger is quite unfounded. The FAA system in question was unclassified. As I said it was the controller to pilot communication system. What communication system?, you asked. Lol. The system in question VSCS is actually located in all FAA centers of which there are approx 23 (not a round number) at last check. I was working for Marin Marietta now Lockheed Martin at the time that was what we call the Prime Contractor on the (round number coming up) 30 Billion Dollar contract (over thirty years) to upgrade the National Airspace System. The test procedure was six (another nice round number) huge volumes and took three months 24/7 to complete. Happy?

"I have a sneaking suspicion you would be unsuccessful searching engine-ing your way out of a paper sack."

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Come again?
corrective_unconscious wrote:

What was the date and the venue of the hearing you mentioned your testimony in?

What were the dates of your employment at Marin [sic] Marietta?

Here are my search efforts at google. Since I'm so hapless then you supply me with the exact search string I should use instead to find something independent.

1. No results found for "'geoff kait' Martin Marietta" [Same for Marin]

2. No results found for "'geoff kait' Lockheed Martin"

3. Three results found for"'geoff kait' VSCS" - only from audio web sites, not even about “VSCS”

"At it turns out all of your angst and anger is quite unfounded. The FAA system in question was unclassified. As I said it was the controller to pilot communication system. What communication system?, you asked. Lol. The system in question VSCS is actually located in all FAA centers of which there are approx 23 (not a round number) at last check. I was working for Marin Marietta now Lockheed Martin at the time that was what we call the Prime Contractor on the (round number coming up) 30 Billion Dollar contract (over thirty years) to upgrade the National Airspace System. The test procedure was six (another nice round number) huge volumes and took three months 24/7 to complete. Happy?

"I have a sneaking suspicion you would be unsuccessful searching engine-ing your way out of a paper sack."

Gosh, you're a nosy fukker. I told you you wouldn't be able to find it. Wink, wink.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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You brought up some claims about your work history

"I told you you wouldn't be able to find it."

You introduced those claims in this public forum, not I. That doesn't make me nosy. On whose behalf and before whom and on what date did you testify about that billion dollar system? What were the dates of your employment at the company whose name you cannot spell? What was your job title while you were employed there?

If my ability to search is so bad then you can surely direct me to a site which details your claimed involvement in the various fields you aver expertise in.

And yes, I'm quite convinced such verification will never be found, as you say.

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I don't think geoff gets it

Hi Corrective

I'm not sure geoff even gets the point anymore. One thing you will find when you look into people like geoff is that he does the same spin approach everywhere he goes, and every thread ends the same way, him in a place of suspicion.

You'll notice in this industry that there are a few of these folks that have no real background for anyone to point at, except for the one they have made themselves.

How I know for certain that geoff is not legit, is by watching how he writes about others. If a guy is going to take the time to make up things about another you can be pretty sure he is going to make up things about himself. A person who spends so much time trying to paint pictures about others, is a guy who is at the same time painting pictures about himself to try to offset the focus being on himself as suspect.

Geoff makes the products he does on his sight, or pushes stuff he sells but notice how he spins it so there are no real answers to any thing he does or what he has done in the past. No "real" ties to NASA or the Military or to the Government. People like this depend on the mystery they build around themselves, and have to keep those mysteries alive even if it means promoting on a forum, any forum, that lets him get by with spins.

Instead of calling you "a nosy fukker", if he was legit seeing how much he likes to promote himself, he would be pointing you to every possible place where he could show you proof. Like you see him boldly stating that he was in a few rooms that got good press at a show, or where people heard a difference with his goodies, but if he repeatingly promotes this news, he would most certainly be throwing every bit of credibility he could throw at you about his past if he had it to throw. I mean how many NASA, Military and Gov guys do you see promoting a portable CD Player with a bunch of tape on it, as being "advanced technologies", and comparing this to a guy like myself who designs complete tunable facilities from the ground up? And I'm pretty sure he goes up against anyone that sees things a little different than him with this same disrespect, as we wittness here almost daily.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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I think Geoff gets it

What are you talking about that he "doesn't get it"?

He explicitly said I wouldn't be able to find any verification...and I haven't been able to. And none will be forthcoming from him, I strongly suspect.

Both of you engage in making claims that in the main could never be verified objectively. The difference is that a place of employment or involvement in a certain air traffic control system could be...if that involvement were real to begin with.

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Oh, I get it.

You guys really don't get the Internet, do you?

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surprised

Yes Corrective, I was agreeing with you.

But for the heck of it, I decided to look up me to see what came up. My thought was that because the computer took over paper work around the late 80's that I wouldn't find much. I was wrong. Even though it wasn't very complete I found more than I thought I would, even an LP with me singing with the London Symphony in 1978 on sale on Ebay right now. That was a shocker! Found several recordings I worked on, and a bunch that I didn't know I got credit for as the acoustical engineer.

I guess it depends on how you do the search. I'll post some of the stuff on Tuneland so people can look at if they have questions about me. Never know :) . But I would think it's easier to find stuff on someone like me. Don't know, but it's interesting.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Proof
corrective_unconscious wrote:

"I told you you wouldn't be able to find it."

You introduced those claims in this public forum, not I. That doesn't make me nosy. On whose behalf and before whom and on what date did you testify about that billion dollar system? What were the dates of your employment at the company whose name you cannot spell? What was your job title while you were employed there?

If my ability to search is so bad then you can surely direct me to a site which details your claimed involvement in the various fields you aver expertise in.

And yes, I'm quite convinced such verification will never be found, as you say.

A suspicious skeptic took one of my Intelligent Chips to a metalurgist where the chip could be examined under a scanning electron microscope, with the intention to prove me wrong in my assertion that the Intelligent Chip contained quantum material, quantum dots specifically. It was with some pride the skeptic announced that no such quantum material was found when examined under the microscope. The electron microscope did not find "artificial atoms" but it did identify Niobium (Nb) and Nickel (Ni) in the top surfaces of the metal discs and Copper (Cu), Zinc (Zn) and Aluminum (Al) in the bottom surfaces. Unfortunately for the skeptic the quantum material, the artificial atoms, is located between two thin discs, out of view of the electron microscope! In fact even if the skeptic knew in advance or was clever enough to notice that the chip was actually a "sandwich" and had opened up the sandwich to expose the quantum material inside he WOULD STILL NOT BE ABLE TO SEE THE QUANTUM DOTS BECAUSE THERE WERE SO FEW OF THEM. Only about a million atoms of them! You would have to search for months to find them. They're just ATOMS. Hel-Loo!

Why anyone would think a person's work experience is necessarily on the Internet is beyond me. Where I worked sometimes I was not even privy to my boss' name, if you see what I mean.

" I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain..."

Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamatic

corrective_unco...
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You avoided the simple question again

"Why anyone would think a person's work experience is necessarily on the Internet is beyond me. Where I worked sometimes I was not even privy to my boss' name, if you see what I mean."

You mentioned the system, the budget, that you supposedly testified at a hearing about it, and the company's name. If you now want to claim nothing about your entire, suddenly, conveniently "secret" work history is on the net, then you may easily supply your dates of imaginary employment, imaginary job title, and what imaginary testimony you gave.

The only reason your boss's name is secret all of a sudden is that, imo, you're a grifter - not merely a performance artist, but a con man with a severe personality disorder, imo.

Or else you may easily provide enough factual information so that your self contradicting claims here can be verified offline.

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