I'm sure you're aware of the "Loudness Wars" where engineers try to maximize the volume of recordings even though it makes the music sound worse. You are not the first to point out digital hard-clipping on released CDs. But this is not an analog or digital issue because, as you noted, the same thing can happen when overdriving analog tape.

--Ethan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

the recording engineers are aware.. most of the time, the damage is done in the mastering stage in order to produce a product that is louder(because there is some assumption that louder equals better..) than the competition's.

www.turnmeup.org

Here's how I do it, without making the music sound compressed and without adding distortion:

Peak Slammer Review

I never aim for more than 4 to 6 dB of gain either. The goal for me is to not change the dynamics audibly, only to reduce those few peaks that prevent normalizing the audio to its full potential. And even then I never normalize above -1. This may be another factor, because I've read that some digital playback devices sound distorted as playback gets very close to hitting digital 0, even when the waves are not actually clipped. My Delta 66 sound card can play digital files that hit 0 without sounding clipped, but I normalize to -1 anyway to accommodate other sounds cards and CD players that may not be so forgiving.

--Ethan

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I have a long time friend who is a recording engineer in LA. He says our job is like trying to fit 10 lbs of stuff into a 5 lb bag.

If the alleged bag is the CD format, then its more like trying to fit 10 pounds into a 15 pound bag.

The CD format has more (at least 10-20 dB more) available dynamic range than even the widest dynamic range recordings of regular music that has ever been released to the public, even including HDCD, DVD-A, and SACD.

The reason why any CDs are being made with heavy clipping is usually because someone intentially decided to do so. The other cases are accidents bordering on incompetence.

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If the alleged bag is the CD format, then its more like trying to fit 10 pounds into a 15 pound bag.

Indeed. It amazes me that some recording engineers think people are unable to find their CD player's volume control.

--Ethan

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Of all that I posted what you choose to comment on says something about you. You seem to look for things to correct, as if you are the expert.

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Wouldn't want to talk down to you after all, that would be rude!

SPIT TAKE!

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Yes, indeed! You have a similar style of assuming that we know very little, even after I taught you a bit about loudspeaker design - wonder if you'd ever admit it. Indeed, interesting!

This is me wiping the monitor down.

Again.

La-de-dah.

LOL!

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Stay out ...

PHHHHHHHHHHHHHHT!

Don't you ever get tired of telling people who you have no control over what they should be doing to make you happy?

I would think my goal here is quite obvious.

You are making Ethan and Arnie look like they actually have some humility in them. That ain't easy!

As a spectator sport, this is not bad.

LOL!!!

So you noticed this distortion on a couple of CD's, you analyzed it, came to a conclusion that suits you and now you think we should let who, exactly, know about it? And why, exactly, do you think they don't already know and they don't give a crap 'cause the CD's are still selling? You bought 'em.

Note how the waveforms you posted (which are very zoomed in - good!) show a very strongly periodic character to the clipping. This is exactly the worst-case scenario - tonal stuff will intermodulate when clipped.

Whereas, with transient signals, percussion, etc, the situation is more complicated. Transients, being largely smeared in the frequency domain to begin with, will not sound as affected by the same amount of clipping as with tonal signals.

But anyways - to the real point of your post. Clipping can exist just as much on vinyl. And yet, some people prefer the vinyl to the CD even when clear evidence exists they are both clipped to the same degree. But personally I think it's just as objectionable on both formats.

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But anyways - to the real point of your post. Clipping can exist just as much on vinyl. And yet, some people prefer the vinyl to the CD even when clear evidence exists they are both clipped to the same degree. But personally I think it's just as objectionable on both formats.

Agreed. IME clipping is less likely with vinyl because cutting lathes are far less tolerant of being overdriven than CD recorders.

It is not very easy to distinguish clipping during production from clipping during the actual preparation of the CD master, so we are unsure of exactly how the clipping took place.

I've seen at last one case where it appeared that the clipping took place prior to the perparation of either the CD or the LP production master.

Look here, arnie, he demanded your resume and he doesn't like to be ignored. I should know, he's been telling me what to do for quite some time now and I ignore him all the time. Now he just gets frustrated when I show up.

You have all those "Troll of the Year" awards to point to, blast'im with those, arnie. Resume up, guy, or he'll talk down to you - again.

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I have a long time friend who is a recording engineer in LA. He says our job is like trying to fit 10 lbs of stuff into a 5 lb bag.

If the alleged bag is the CD format, then its more like trying to fit 10 pounds into a 15 pound bag.

The CD format has more (at least 10-20 dB more) available dynamic range than even the widest dynamic range recordings of regular music that has ever been released to the public, even including HDCD, DVD-A, and SACD.

The reason why any CDs are being made with heavy clipping is usually because someone intentially decided to do so. The other cases are accidents bordering on incompetence.

Of all that I posted what you choose to comment on says something about you. You seem to look for things to correct, as if you are the expert.

You seem to be incapble of responding politely and constructively to someone who sees things a little different than you do, Pete. You seem to have turned my little factual comment into a battle of correction and counter-correction.

I'm just here to discuss audio, not engage in a battle of wills, credentials, or parent verus child. If that's not your interest, then please do both of us and the whole forum the favor of ignoring my posts.

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I brought up my friend's comment because I believe that it is true, so can you think of a way that it might actually apply to the recording and playback process..

Since the CD format is demonstrably not as incompetent as you seem to believe, my suggestion is that you simply apply it as is to the recording and playback process and get on with the now for you, more simplified process of enjoying the music.

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Look here, arnie, he demanded your resume and he doesn't like to be ignored.

If you're talking about Pete, it seems that he thinks he already knows my resume. His account of it causes me no pain, so I'm perfectly happy to let him believe what he wants to believe.

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You seem to be incapble of responding politely and constructively to someone who sees things a little different than you do, Pete.

I had to stop reading at this point, no shit - ROTFLMAO!!!!!

ARRRNIE!!!!!!

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I'm perfectly happy to let him believe what he wants to believe.

I've heard you've never done that in your entire life, arnie. And Momma arnie did so want you to grow up.

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You have a similar style of assuming that we know very little

I was writing mostly for the benefit of others. I know your expertise well, and I'm sure you understand all the issues. I think you're reading too much into what Arny and I both said. The real issue is that CDs are capable of a huge dynamic range - far greater than LPs and analog tape. So this loudness "war" is especially aggravating to people like you and me and Arny, and everyone else who appreciates music that's reproduced well. There's no need for the extreme compression that's often used, yet they do it anyway.

--Ethan

Goddamn, Jan...go away.

you ruin every damn thread you show up in.

You should be banned just as DUP was.

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I'm perfectly happy to let him believe what he wants to believe.

I've heard you've never done that in your entire life, arnie. And Momma arnie did so want you to grow up.

I just read a post on this thread by sas and then by the time I finished the linked article his post was gone. What gives?

Aw shucks <blush> Thanks.

Honestly, from what I understand (and I have no firsthand knowledge of the matter), the whole "vinyl does not allow hypercompressed music" thing is more or less a myth. If a hypercompressed master is provided, one way or another it can get cut. The levels can be reduced; acceleration limiters can be employed; halfspeed mastering can be used; etc. Obviously some things will never work on vinyl, like a +20db 20khz tone, but there are plenty of examples of massive clipping on mainstream modern LPs, so I would never give any credence to vinyl tending towards better masters unless extremely good evidence is presented to that effect.

Or look at from another angle: How many vinyl releases have their own special high dynamic range master? If they spent the money on it, wouldn't they advertise it to get the most for their money? If they don't advertise it, what do you think the odds are that they used the CD master (or a higher-res version thereof)? I haven't found an example of a "submarine" vinyl master - either it's the CD master, a high res CD master, something which still has very substantial clipping, or it's a well promoted, less compressed master.

In response to your DIYAudio post: yeah, there are weird things like that on vinyl that substantially affect the imaging. jj is very fond of mentioning them. That said, I have a lot of releases on Warp on both CD and vinyl which seem to be exactly the same master, and they don't really sound all that much different. I haven't tried ABXing but I could conceivably fail it in loud passages with a little bit of eq...

There was a very amusing (in a sad way) workshop on this at the just-ended AES convention in Munich. (which is where I have been)

The OP has a very strong point. Present production methods are frankly appalling in many cases, and lo and behold, the crappy quality that comes out doesn't seem to hold on to the market share they want.

Imagine that.

There is much more to be said, but I'm not yet home with my data. Allow me to say two words: MARS VOLTA

I've never seen a level distribution like that before, and hope to never see such again.

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Very simplistic view guys, you obviously don't get it.

Are we talking about the capability of CD's or the brain-damaged way that they are presently being produced here?

The two are different issues.

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Gentlemen, it is possible to compress the signal without clipping. Over use of compression is another topic.

However, CLIPPING raises the LOUDNESS of the signal much more than it raises the INTENSITY.

Please see the "loudness tutorial" at www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm for more information if you are unaware of the difference.

The issue is not an intensity or level war, the "war" that is presently ruining our audio is a LOUDNESS war, and that's why the clipping. It raises the loudness. To *&((* with quality, MAKE IT LOUD.

Don't ask me what I think of this unless you have Guinness ready.

Oh c'mon. Mars Volta has nothing on Merzbow, right? For all the press given about Death Magnetic, it's still like 8db quieter than "I Lead You Towards Glorious Times" on Venereology. IIRC, pfpf estimates a dynamic range on that song in tenths of a dB.

Although I guess comparing a sorta-mainstream rock band to a Japanese noise artist is a sort of apples and oranges thing.

Have you ever heard of Times New Viking? <g> Seriously, they seem to have garnered a rather surprising amount of market share by wrapping mediocre songs with massive amounts of limiting.

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Oh c'mon. Mars Volta has nothing on Merzbow, right? For all the press given about Death Magnetic, it's still like 8db quieter than "I Lead You Towards Glorious Times" on Venereology. IIRC, pfpf estimates a dynamic range on that song in tenths of a dB.

Although I guess comparing a sorta-mainstream rock band to a Japanese noise artist is a sort of apples and oranges thing.

Have you ever heard of Times New Viking? <g> Seriously, they seem to have garnered a rather surprising amount of market share by wrapping mediocre songs with massive amounts of limiting.

When I get back to the office I will post a histogram of the levels in one track.

Between -32767 (they didn't go to -32768) and +32767, we account for one of every 90 samples.

Over the whole (*(* track. (*&(*&(*

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this same friend and another who I also trust said that I wouldn't want a completely uncompressed recording even with a high end home system.

Compression is an important recording studio effect, just as are reverb and EQ and echo. When used in moderation (or not), compression adds life and presence and even sparkle to a track or mix.

--Ethan

For some engineers, when this came when they played through a couple of the bad old car. For others, it can be defined as when you play the CD Master for other people who has never heard of before and it just feels to them as well. In any case, you have the best take vocal and instrumental, have used the Online Mixing and Mastering wit to get the most out of the sound, and the feeling that the music is ready to unleash on the world.

Not being one to dig up old threads but this one is pretty relevant actually to the thread I started on compression on SACDs and other formats. So, anyway, Ethan Winer makes the following observation,

"Compression is an important recording studio effect, just as are reverb and EQ and echo. When used in moderation (or not), compression adds life and presence and even sparkle to a track or mix."

--Ethan

Now, I mean, come on! It doesn't make sense that compressing the sound can result in more presence and life, and even sparkle. And as judge Judy sez, if it doesn't make sense it's not true. In fact, I suspect the opposite is actually true, that compression reduces the presence and life. The reason is simple, compression reduces the dynamics, which are in abundance in real life. By reducing dynamics you reduce not only presence and life, the breath as it were of the sound but the sparkle, which is also a function of dynamics as well as frequency response. Robbing the sound of dynamics reduces it to paper mâché, if I wanted to hear compressed music I'd listen to FM radio. Just take a listen to say the Stones' A Bigger Bang, the Stones' Bridges to Babylon, or even their Steel Wheels CD, Dylan's Love and Theft or Led Zeppelin's Mothership and you tell me, where is the sparkle and presence and life? You know, people are constantly throwing up live acoustic music as the ideal we should all strive for in home audio reproduction. Now I'm not saying that I actually completely agree with that proposition but I will make the observation that if that proposition IS true it don't make a whioe lotta sense to move AWAY from that ideal of live acoustic music by COMPRESSING the sound, especially to the EXTENT that has and is occurring.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Compression is a lot like using an equalizer to enhance certain frequencies that maybe weren't well captured by the recording process. Since most studio recordings are a mix of various parts and pieces, often times not even recorded in the same zip code, compression can be important in putting all the pieces together to form a recording track.

It really is a judgement call by the engineer and artist in determining what sounds good and what achieves the artist's intentions or preferences.

And then the producer takes that recording and tells the engineer to smash it to bits with massive amounts of total compression until the lights in the studio start blinking and the transformers in the neighborhood start sparking.

Catch22 wrote:

Compression is a lot like using an equalizer to enhance certain frequencies that maybe weren't well captured by the recording process. Since most studio recordings are a mix of various parts and pieces, often times not even recorded in the same zip code, compression can be important in putting all the pieces together to form a recording track.

It really is a judgement call by the engineer and artist in determining what sounds good and what achieves the artist's intentions or preferences.

And then the producer takes that recording and tells the engineer to smash it to bits with massive amounts of total compression until the lights in the studio start blinking and the transformers in the neighborhood start sparking.

I am not objecting to modest compression, although I confess I don't see how compression has anything at all to do with sparkle or soundstage or treble response, I'm objecting to the overly aggressive over zealous compression we see in the industry and have been seeing for twenty five years. It is systemic. Besides, CDs that have very little compression such as Frank Zappa's CD for example (just take a look at those Dynamic Range numbers on the Official Dynamic Range Database!) and others actually have lots of sparkle so I suspect Ethan is actually incorrect. Assuming compression is aimed at the youth market why would audio engineers care a whit about sound quality? It's not a sound quality issue, it's a sales issue. The engineer is not creating some piece of art, he's compressing the audio so he can boost the volume level. That's why they call it Loudness Wars. Just a hunch, Teenie boppers, you know, the ones who actually buy CDs, probably don't listen for sparkle or frequency extension. Hel-loo!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I know when I play any of the Telarc CD's the dynamics are absolutely brilliant. But when I play Yes's Big Generator it just sizzles with hardly any dynamics. One of my favorite CD's is Genesis Seconds Out on Atlantic and it has a presentation that is astounding to listen to. Same with vinyl. I have a Maxell Jazz Sampler I got when I purchased my Heresy's that is ultra quiet and good dynamics. But when I play my KTEL Guitar Greats it sounds like everything was recorded at one low level with minimal dynamics. Of course a lot of the material is from the 60's and 70's so even different era's from the equipment it was recorded from has a lot to do with the sound. Still it has some great performances like Elen McIlwaine.

https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=20m38s

Looking over some of the posts on this thread especially the OP the thought occurs to me that clipping is actually the reason for the whole loudness wars thing, you know, assuming the reason for compressing the dynamic range of CDs is intended to promote sales of CDs to the mobile generation, which is now huge. Thusly, by compressing, even aggressively, dynamics of the music the listener on the other end of his iPod, cellphone, or even low powered stationary system, especially a low powered SET and horn system I'm thinking! and raising the loudness level a few notches the audio engineer achieves two things: reduction of any system's inclination towers clipping and the ability of a given system to play loud.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica