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geoffkait
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Stove Piping and Audiophiles

Stove Piping and audiophiles

Stovepiping (also stove piping) is a metaphorical term which recalls a stovepipe's function as an isolated vertical conduit, and has been used, in the context of intelligence, to describe several ways in which raw intelligence information may be presented without proper context. It is a system created to solve a specific problem. The lack of context may be due to the specialized nature, or security requirements, of a particular intelligence collection technology. It also has limited focus and data within is not easily shared. Alternatively, the lack of context may come from a particular group, in the national policy structure, selectively presenting only that information that supports certain conclusions. The term is typically used in the health care system. An example would be how money funded for research is not evenly allocated, but instead goes toward one specific ailment remedy.

The most common types of intelligence collection, and to some extent processing, which are commonly found in "stovepipes", include signal intelligence (SIGINT), imagery intelligence (IMINT), and human intelligence (HUMINT). While there are other forms of sensitive intelligence collection, these "big three", in a proper use, complement one another. A SIGINT communications intercept, for example, may suggest the presence of a particular military unit in a given location. For example, as part of the Operation Quicksilver deception plan during World War II, dummy communications were generated for the fictitious First United States Army Group (FUSAG), ostensibly commanded by George Patton, in order to convince the Germans that the main attack would come at the Pas-de-Calais, rather than the real target of Normandy. Dummy equipment was positioned in the places consistent with the communications, and a very few German high-altitude photographic aircraft brought back evidence apparently confirming IMINT. The British, however, had jailed or turned all German HUMINT spies, through the Double Cross System. Had a real spy been able to get to a FUSAG location, he would have seen the tanks were inflatable rubber decoys. The British, however, allowed only false confirmations of real tanks to be sent.

The significance of the concept of Stove Piping to audiophiles is that audiophiles develop systems and concepts of their systems in isolation, for the most part. I'm not saying that there isn't some sharing in some cases. But just as the intelligence gathers develop "raw" data and draw conclusions from the data in isolation one audiophile might develop a system based on vacuum tubes and conclude that vacuum tubes are superior to solid state electronics based on his results, I.e., how his system sounds. But his conclusion that vacuum tubes are superior to solid state was developed in a vacuum, as it were! And any conclusion of what constitutes the correct, or best, or superior technique, methodology, concept or path for achieving the absolute sound can wind up being a Fool's Paradise, the result of Stove Piping. What is required is a synthesis of the best ideas in achieving great sound. There should probably be some serious consideration given to adding new chapters to the books already written. There can even be a chapter on pro audio, for example, or quantum mechanics, resonators, RFI/EMI, what have you. Everything is on the table, nothing is off the table. Otherwise, it's just a lot of Stove Piping, you could say the partially blind leading the partially blind.

"It's what I choose to believe." Dr. Shaw in the movie, Prometheus

Cheers,
Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica

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I like it, Geoff

& allow me to add the wikipedia quote of the day:

Belief....
.......... a psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture or premise to be true.[1]

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Interesting manifesto

Hi Geoff,

Thought provoking manifesto. I love the historical references.

In broad terms, I wonder how the data could be presented to allow hobbyists (or designers) to choose the areas they wish to apply when designing and evolving a system that meets their individual tastes (or clients tastes.)

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Designing and evolving
toledo wrote:

Hi Geoff,

Thought provoking manifesto. I love the historical references.

In broad terms, I wonder how the data could be presented to allow hobbyists (or designers) to choose the areas they wish to apply when designing and evolving a system that meets their individual tastes (or clients tastes.)

Interesting question. I mean assuming your assumption is correct, that designers and hobbyists and clients are interested in that sort of thing. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but don't audiophiles use cables to tailor their sound? I seriously doubt anyone is much interested in harnessing the power of quantum mechanics to improve their sound, with the possible exception of iosiP.

:-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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so anyway

When I was playing the drums and piano I decided to separate the two in space by just a little bit. I noticed that my wires going from the transformer to the board were running in parallel and very close together. I moved them maybe 1 inch apart giving them their own space. Things opened up nicely, but I wanted yet a little more warmth so I barely loosened the board screw closest to where the wires attached to the board until I could hear the space of each instrument get nice and warm within their own place in the stage. I wanted to make this complete so I dropped a canopy rod about 2" away from where this was going on and the magic was there waiting on me. Body, their own space and real to size.

I'm thinking though of maybe going from the brass rods to the LTR and making the top tuning board go to the platform by means of the wood instead of metal rods. Might have a little balancing act to do but we'll give this a shot as I have had good results with this in the past. I would love to do this with the low profile brass inserts but you have to be very careful that the insert doesn't over power the transfer into the canopy board. For this reason I have usually stuck with different voiced down tuning rods but might want to revisit the threads.

we'll see

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Hi Geoff,

Hi Geoff,

I read the manifesto as an indictment of how the industry currently operates and the products they produce which leads to the never ending struggle to find components that work well together and tuning and tweaks that complement these components.

Maybe I misread it, but you stated "What is required is a synthesis of the best ideas in achieving great sound." and "Everything is on the table, nothing is off the table."

If this was not an indictment of the industry, then I question the assumption and validity of using current state of the art componentry as a fixed accepted baseline and the only issue is determining the best aftermarket tuning and tweaking ideas or products and their correct usage.

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Wooden bloards and speakers

Hello Michael,

I was thinking about putting my speakers on wooden platforms. I have access to various woods ranging from pine to oak to maple to exotic stuff, all cured for many years. All come in 450x450x40 mm boards, enough to hold my speakers (well, the length is a close call but I can always place them diagonally).
My problem is I have no way to change the boards as the speakers are heavier than myself. Could you recommend a few woods to try, with a little help from my friends?

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Stove Piping and Audiophiles
toledo wrote:

Hi Geoff,

I read the manifesto as an indictment of how the industry currently operates and the products they produce which leads to the never ending struggle to find components that work well together and tuning and tweaks that complement these components.

Maybe I misread it, but you stated "What is required is a synthesis of the best ideas in achieving great sound." and "Everything is on the table, nothing is off the table."

If this was not an indictment of the industry, then I question the assumption and validity of using current state of the art componentry as a fixed accepted baseline and the only issue is determining the best aftermarket tuning and tweaking ideas or products and their correct usage.

Hmmm...an indictment of the industry? Stove Piping and Audiophiles - I'm trying to limit the Stove Piping to audiophiles, but I suppose it could apply to others. Why don't high end amp manufacturers use better
Power Cords or better fuses, things of that nature?

"When you control the mail you control...information." - Newman

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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

........Why don't high end amp manufacturers use better
Power Cords or better fuses, things of that nature?

It is as if they all got together & made a pact.
Shiny, sparkly, outward aesthetics & branding are what is for sale & what generates sales. "No users serviceable parts inside, warranty invalid if seal broken". It is the pond they refuse to dip their toes in.

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Industry stove piping

"'m trying to limit the Stove Piping to audiophiles"

This should be turned around. Industry stove piping has led to audiophile stove piping.

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didn't know

This is how variable I am. I didn't know what stove piping was till I just looked it up lol.

In a hobby like this we should be doing every thing we can to help all listeners get the sound they want and be able to play as much music as they can.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Hi Costin

Hi Costin

If you look here it might give you some ideas http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t71-mga-platforms-racks-and-amp-stands . I need to update that page.

sorry guys with this being off topic

I have enjoyed working with the Brazilian Pine, Northern Redwood combos but any of the wood that is able to be drained of it's moisture by 70% are good ones to look at. I don't like pitchy woods like Maple and some oaks cause they stick close to one note and I like full range. But your pine family or reds or cedars, I think Toledo is playing with a piece of alder. For my taste I like a piece of wood that carries the harmonics really nice. I'm in the lumber yard at least 4 times a week looking through wood to voice. But, here's the thing, you said it is cured. Does that mean dry cured or what has been the conditioning? This will make a big difference, cause if you do go with a pine for example and don't get the moisture out of it, it will sound cloudy. So you need to if you haven't yet get a little up on voicing wood. I bake my wood which is a little different then kiln drying. I don't know where you are but if the humidity there is 25 or over you don't want to try baking. It will be too fast for the wood and will end up sounding weird.

I've tried a few times to help people voice wood long distance but it never really worked out. There are so many steps and if you screw up something like a sanding at the wrong time condition or grit you might as well throw the wood away. I'm pretty picky though.

But the basic steps are find a wood piece that resonates full range then dry the heck out of it (the reason I live in the desert). If it's too fast or too slow you have to know when to rotate it and move it from one condition to the next. Like here I have 4 drying spots, one in the sun, one in the shade, one downstairs and a bake room upstairs. I have fans setup and control the heat and then I have a waiting area so the wood can sit there inbetween the sanding and coats. All the steps can make or break a piece so if your making your own you might screw up the sound a few times before you get it right. But if you get it right your going to love it. Like I have mini monitors here (tiny things) and they play 40 hz and below. That's all from the voicing. My floorstanders can play organ music pretty fair. So if you get the right combo under your speaks you'll really like the results. I think speaker platforms are the next big component, I really do. You can transform your sound with these babies.

I'd share how I do the voicing but then I'd have to get a job and forget that.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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I think the wood is dried to perfection

It comes from a factory that exported wood for various instrument makers around the world, including Italy and Japan. The factory went belly-up and one of my friends acquired all remaining stock. We even had no time to go through all the woods, but I'm talking about (roughly) one full container.

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Stove piping
toledo wrote:

"'m trying to limit the Stove Piping to audiophiles"

This should be turned around. Industry stove piping has led to audiophile stove piping.

OK, how's this? The industry does it out of self interest and self protection. And to a certain extent out of ignorance (the better power cord, better fuse, etc.). Kinda like the perfume industry. Audiophiles do it (develop systems in isolation) out of ignorance and/or lack of curiosity. Am pretty sure they do things like they THINK everyone does it, actually. It can be an awfully good idea NOT to submit a patent application for some new fangled device to avoid disclosing details. Loose lips sink ships. Like the perfume industry. Physical details, operating mechanisms and concepts that are invisible or disguised can be quite advantageous to one's corner on the market. There is always someone who can make a better mousetrap or sell it cheaper than you can.

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." A. Einstein

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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"The industry does it out of

"The industry does it out of self interest and self protection. And to a certain extent out of ignorance (the better power cord, better fuse, etc.) ....

Audiophiles do it (develop systems in isolation) out of ignorance and/or lack of curiosity. Am pretty sure they do things like they THINK everyone does it, actually. "

The groupthink mentality originates within the industry based on what they perceive are best design practices and what they think sells. It goes a little deeper than power cords, etc. Hobbyists are then left to deal with the consequences in any way they can.

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Concept for the Day - The Backfire Effect
wkhanna wrote:

& allow me to add the wikipedia quote of the day:

Belief....
.......... a psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture or premise to be true.[1]

Backfire Effect

The "backfire effect" is a term coined by Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler to describe how some individuals when confronted with evidence that conflicts with their beliefs come to hold their original position even more strongly:

Whatever the cause, the backfire effect is very curious. The more ideological and the more emotion-based a belief is, the more likely it is that contrary evidence will be ineffective. There is some evidence that lack of self-confidence and insecurity correlate with the backfire effect. More research is needed to fully explain what additional factors lead some people to respond to contrary evidence by treating it as if it were additional support for one's belief. Further research is also needed to see if different groups are more susceptible to the backfire effect (liberals and conservatives, theists and atheists, skeptics and true believers) and, if so, why.

“”What should be evident from the studies on the backfire effect is you can never win an argument online. When you start to pull out facts and figures, hyperlinks and quotes, you are actually making the opponent feel as though they are even more sure of their position than before you started the debate. As they match your fervor, the same thing happens in your skull. The backfire effect pushes both of you deeper into your original beliefs.

—You Are Not So Smart - The Backfire Effect[1]

NON AUDIO EXAMPLE

In 2006, Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler at The University of Michigan and Georgia State University created fake newspaper articles about polarizing political issues. The articles were written in a way which would confirm a widespread misconception about certain ideas in American politics. As soon as a person read a fake article, researchers then handed over a true article which corrected the first. For instance, one article suggested the United States found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The next said the U.S. never found them, which was the truth. Those opposed to the war or who had strong liberal leanings tended to disagree with the original article and accept the second. Those who supported the war and leaned more toward the conservative camp tended to agree with the first article and strongly disagree with the second. These reactions shouldn’t surprise you. What should give you pause though is how conservatives felt about the correction. After reading that there were no WMDs, they reported being even more certain than before there actually were WMDs and their original beliefs were correct.

AUDIO EXAMPLE

The word Quantum in the title or description of any audio device will automatically be interpreted either as an attempt to snow the reader OR to disguise the actual mechanism or method of operation which is assumed by the reader to deserve a conventional physics explanation at best and no method of operation, worst case scenario. Lol

Cheers, Geoff at Machina Erotica

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Geoff,

Geoff,

Any debate can be characterized as a having a backfire effect in the absence of refutable facts. Your non audio example exemplifies this. Once the facts presented themselves, the effect was successfully proven.

Your audio related example is an opinion and could easily be characterized as suffering from the same backfire effect.

I am inclined to believe that pointing out this effect in the midst of a debate is a method primarily used to discredit anything said by the other party.

What happened to the original thesis of this post or did it suffer from a backfire fate on your part.

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Did my post backfire?
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

Any debate can be characterized as a having a backfire effect in the absence of refutable facts. Your non audio example exemplifies this. Once the facts presented themselves, the effect was successfully proven.

Your audio related example is an opinion and could easily be characterized as suffering from the same backfire effect.

I am inclined to believe that pointing out this effect in the midst of a debate is a method primarily used to discredit anything said by the other party.

What happened to the original thesis of this post or did it suffer from a backfire fate on your part.

The non audio example I provided is an example of the Backfire Effect since there were no WMD in Iraq. Those that supported the war tend to believe there actually were WMD just like Tenant and Powell testified in front of the UN. Thus when presented with a false article that supports their belief they think the report is true.

In the case of quantum mechanics type explanations for audio devices the pseudo skeptics come out of the woodwork. The more one tries to reason with them, you know with facts or formulas, the more convinced they are of their own (unfounded) belief. That is the definition of the Backfire Effect. If it helps think of it as Expectation Bias' ugly cousin. A shark sees a surfboard and believes it is a seal. There is no arguing with him about that.

"People would be much better off, generally speaking, if they believed in too much rather than too little." PT Barnum

"Because it's what I choose to believe." - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus, who incorrectly and tragically concluded the last engineer was headed for Earth to destroy it.

Dunno what happened to the original thesis. Isn't it still on the table?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff,

Geoff,

Actually, the salient point of the backfire event is that people still hold onto their beliefs more strongly even after being presented with the facts.

Carefully re-read my post. The only ones that can determine if a backfire event is occurring would be a third party as they are not biased and look at the facts. Your non audio example showed this as it could be shown that once the facts were in, sceptics still held their beliefs.

Your audio related example relies on your bias and opinion that the sceptics will never weight the facts and data presented to them even though they may have and simply did not agree with the facts presented to them. The only one who can prove this is occurring would be a third party without bias that can weight the merits of the facts. When you factor in an area like quantum mechanics and it's applicability to audio, I would say the facts are a bit murky. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a horse in this race, just pointing out the basic assumptions and logic flaws.

Why do think listening is so important. In many ways this is the unbiased third party.

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Backfire Effect & Source of Information

I think that the Backfire Effect is also related to the source of information.

Sticking to audio, I am o proponent of SS vs. tubes and digital vs. analogue, but I am open minded and would rehash my opinion about tubes - or at least give it a second thought - if (say) Dan d'Agostino or John Curl would say they're good. OTOH, when Michael Fremer states digital is bad it only strengthen my preference because I'm fully aware of Fremer's biases.

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Huh?
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

Actually, the salient point of the backfire event is that people still hold onto their beliefs more strongly even after being presented with the facts.

Carefully re-read my post. The only ones that can determine if a backfire event is occurring would be a third party as they are not biased and look at the facts. Your non audio example showed this as it could be shown that once the facts were in, sceptics still held their beliefs.

Your audio related example relies on your bias and opinion that the sceptics will never weight the facts and data presented to them even though they may have and simply did not agree with the facts presented to them. The only one who can prove this is occurring would be a third party without bias that can weight the merits of the facts. When you factor in an area like quantum mechanics and it's applicability to audio, I would say the facts are a bit murky. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a horse in this race, just pointing out the basic assumptions and logic flaws.

Why do think listening is so important. In many ways this is the unbiased third party.

My bias? I assume you mean that I actually studied physics, including nuclear physics and quantum mechanics and that I have designed Quantum Mechanical devices for many years. Is that what you mean by my bias? Listening is fine but does not prove the operating mechanism, eh? I know what you're thinking, "I don't really care how it works as long as it works." :-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

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Tubes
iosiP wrote:

I think that the Backfire Effect is also related to the source of information.

Sticking to audio, I am o proponent of SS vs. tubes and digital vs. analogue, but I am open minded and would rehash my opinion about tubes - or at least give it a second thought - if (say) Dan d'Agostino or John Curl would say they're good. OTOH, when Michael Fremer states digital is bad it only strengthen my preference because I'm fully aware of Fremer's biases.

I've known Curl for many years and have isolated his electronics, including the Bar-B-Q amp, Blowtorch preamp and the JC-1 amps, on a couple of occasions at the show in Vegas. At some point he heard some SET tube amps and commented they sounded very interesting, real sounding. Of course Curl only designs SS stuff. I have a SET tube headphone amp myself, not SS. The last time I had SS was when Nixon resigned. You could say I'm biased.

Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica

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the wood

Hi Costin

We should take this somewhere else as not to be off topic here, but I want to tell you even if the wood has been cured according to what I think I'm hearing you say, that's only the beginning point. It hasn't been prepped yet, it doesn't sound like it anyway. If the wood sits somewhere for a day or two in higher humidity 25% or above the moisture has gotten back into it and the prepping has to be done over. If you give me the town it is in I can check it for you but I have a feeling it is not ready. Also if it is instrument wood that means it has been picked for particular instruments sound and doesn't mean it will do well as a full range producer. When we tested instrument wood from some of the factories we found them to be pitch specific and couldn't use them. This was also true for the finishes. Keep in mind that reproducing the whole scale is a lot different from each individual instruments signature. We have had speakers before made out of specific instrument wood (violin, cello, drums, piano, double bass, guitar) and they sounded horrible. Lots of glare and pitching problems. I'm not saying thats what you've got I'm just saying that's what happened with us, and I was pretty tight with the factories cause I was their acoustician. Even went to their forest lots and bought my own trees, and had them prepped for me by them. And honestly they didn't sound so good. Made for a nice storyline, but that was about it. So if you got instrument wood more than likely it was harvested with a certain predetermined sound signature in mind. It's probably (don't know) wood for different parts of the instruments all having their own fixed character, like the boards braces and bodies. That said, out of that wood I would recommend finding the wood that has the lowest tone and and lightest weight to start with, that way you'll get the fuller range and that's the key for reproducing. My gutt feeling is that this particular wood might be pitched too high though to start with. And if it's what I think it might be might be pretty touchy if you try to take it down to 4%. Maybe I don't know. Most instrument wood (the bodies) don't like going down that low without cracking. And the body pulp is probably the softest stuff you have. Do you know the type of instruments they were used for?

Not trying to be the bearer of bad news, just giving what I have been through with this before. But doing is half the fun and you guys will have a good time learning about this stuff cause it is pretty cool.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Geoff, still avoiding serious talks, are you?

My post was about a correlation between the source of information and the Backfire Effect.
Whatever you use as a headphone amp or some anecdotal talk about Curl & The SET are irrelevant.
Guess what? At a High-End show I found myself stuck in the toilet without any "dedicated" paper. I had to choose the only poster not printed on glossy paper: one that extolled the sonic benefits of direct heated triodes, which also shaped my opinion about SET amps - they're good in case of dire needs but do not bring any satisfaction.

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Got coffee?
iosiP wrote:

My post was about a correlation between the source of information and the Backfire Effect.
Whatever you use as a headphone amp or some anecdotal talk about Curl & The SET are irrelevant.
Guess what? At a High-End show I found myself stuck in the toilet without any "dedicated" paper. I had to choose the only poster not printed on glossy paper: one that extolled the sonic benefits of direct heated triodes, which also shaped my opinion about SET amps - they're good in case of dire needs but do not bring any satisfaction.

SS sucks, is that technical enough for you? Take some friendly advice and cut back on the Joe.

Geoff @ Machina Dynamcia

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Same level of "elevated" information
geoffkait wrote:

SS sucks, is that technical enough for you?

So did Monica Lewinsky, but at least Bill had an explanation!
Or if you just don't get it: no, it's not technical enough for me: try harder!

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Geoff,

Geoff,

You position yourself as some sort of intellectual yet when your arguments are pressed you resort to lashing out and I am so smart why can't anyone see that and take your ball and go home.

You done this now twice on this thread. Once for the stove piping proposition and now the backfire.

Regarding bias, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

"Bias is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective, often accompanied by a refusal to even consider the possible merits of alternative points of view."

What didn't you understand about my point or were you too busy playing the I'm so smart card.

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I offered free (or cheapo) tweaks

I described several free (or at least cheap) tweaks in the thread I started, but I see noone has comments.
I guarantee they work, and I make them public for no financial benefit (well, maybe except the quantum Martini), so why not give them a try?
Now, to prove I'm not interested in any financial gain, here is another easy (and free) tweak for you all: just ask your barber to cut the hair in your ears in a pattern that is complementary to the Monsoon-Fletcher curves: you're going to get a more linear listening and a vastly better soundstage.
Just try it, along with pulling off your nails and replacing them with rainbow foil from May Belt, and I vouch your listening experience will never be the same!

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Now ya done it Costin and got

Now ya done it Costin and got May involved .... Slap me every once in a while if I start snoring, will ya.

... was it Steinberg or Sherwin or ...... no no no wait ... I'll get it ........

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different levels

Listening is an interesting mind changer. Kinda odd how it works, but it's one of those things I've noticed where people reach a certain level of listening and knowledge, and they plateau or they are true music explorers. Doesn't matter if they are a reviewer, designer, engineer or hobbyist. And depending on how strong their ego is and how limited their actual exposure is they'll stay right there defending that position for ever, or until they experience another level, and then their personal bar is raised and they reach that next level. Everytime they reach a level they look back at all the folks that haven't gotten there yet and usually want to see the newcomer rise to their level. That's natural I would think, but as a listening/designer there's that thing in me anyway that doesn't want to stop learning. This is probably why my systems may look more like a science projects than high end audio systems to some. I'm not going to lie, I look at a system that is still in a chassis and see what it is not doing, heavy multiple driver speakers and see the same thing, room conditions and a ton of other stuff and I pretty much know what is or isn't going on.

You know it's not so much that those who have done a little more want to come across as putting down the path of someone else but we really have been there, and for me anyway I try to find the words to not come off wrong but I do think with this being such an ego driven thing it's tricky. Again I do think this is normal, there's no malice there. It's a step further and some can go there and find the same things or not, or even say they don't believe until they are ready to take a next step. No harm done really. It's just an ego, and learning gets us past egos I believe. But for me it's those who stay at that plateau and try to bring people down from climbing the rest of that mountain that get under my skin. And it doesn't get under my skin for me, but it gets under my skin because I know there are so many out there that just want great sound, and there are many people claiming to have something that they don't. It's not that hard to see when we start talking about listening.

for myself

It doesn't matter what music someone says they have, or what they have done with a reviewer or designer, or when they say what they have spent or claim the level they are at. For me, it comes down to when they start talking about that picture of music in their room. They can blow all the smoke they want but until you start referencing it means ditty. I'm use to listeners describing what they are hearing and they're not shy about where they want to go and where they are now. This is what I look for and it tells me how far someone has come and how far they might go as a listener and as a person. If they can't talk about a piece of music they are taking apart I wouldn't buy "jack" from them, that goes for products or advice or listening to their theories. If someone is on a forum and doesn't have a place where they are describing their sound, they get a zero from me in the credibility department, I don't care who they are or claim to be. When I see someone run from talking about their stage that tells me they have problems with their system. One of the easiest things in the world to describe is a soundstage, and when I see someone not able to do that or spin off on a technical issue or start talking about source material and direct to disc and all that stuff that tells me they have got a soundstage problem. Cause it's not hard to describe what you are sitting there hearing. That's what this hobby is, and what a listener does in his or her mind every day. Don't be fooled by spins, if you see a talker here on this forum or any other and they are not talking about that thing we do, their not really doing it. Their talking about it but their not doing it, cause when you do listen to that soundstage it is something that gets planted in your mind and stays. You go do other things and wonder about that stage or that sound, or that change or that perfection, but be sure if your listening your able to describe it.

It comes in different levels and I promise you the ones who run from the event of listening are the ones not spending their days doing it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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The art of argument
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

You position yourself as some sort of intellectual yet when your arguments are pressed you resort to lashing out and I am so smart why can't anyone see that and take your ball and go home.

You done this now twice on this thread. Once for the stove piping proposition and now the backfire.

Regarding bias, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

"Bias is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective, often accompanied by a refusal to even consider the possible merits of alternative points of view."

What didn't you understand about my point or were you too busy playing the I'm so smart card.

Calling someone biased is not really an argument. Hel-loo! Nor is calling someone an intellectual. Mr. Smarty Pants would suffice. Can I suggest you get a hold of Zen and the Art of Debunkery as it appears you might have run out of ammo?

Pop Quiz

Can you Spot the intellectuals?

1. Madonna
2. Einstein
3. Pee Wee Herman
4. Adolf Hitler
5. Justin Bieber
6. Jerry Lewis

Some suggestions from Zen and art of Debunkery

Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery- worshipping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate the scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending the scientific method.

Always refer to unorthodox statements as "claims," which are "touted," and to your own assertions as "facts," which are "stated."

Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)

State categorically that the unconventional may be dismissed as, at best, an honest misinterpretation of the conventional.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Technical explanation
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

SS sucks, is that technical enough for you?

So did Monica Lewinsky, but at least Bill had an explanation!
Or if you just don't get it: no, it's not technical enough for me: try harder!

OK, how about SS is dry, metallic, two dimensional, harmonically discombobulated, paper mâché like, dead, piercing, lacking structure in the bass frequencies, unnatural, overly analytical, dynamically compressed, cold, and unmusical?

Is that better? Be honest.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Free tweaks
iosiP wrote:

I described several free (or at least cheap) tweaks in the thread I started, but I see noone has comments.
I guarantee they work, and I make them public for no financial benefit (well, maybe except the quantum Martini), so why not give them a try?
Now, to prove I'm not interested in any financial gain, here is another easy (and free) tweak for you all: just ask your barber to cut the hair in your ears in a pattern that is complementary to the Monsoon-Fletcher curves: you're going to get a more linear listening and a vastly better soundstage.
Just try it, along with pulling off your nails and replacing them with rainbow foil from May Belt, and I vouch your listening experience will never be the same!

Personally I think they're cute. You missed your calling.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Yep, much better

Just shows your ability to talk about technical matters!

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Pardon me

But, does anyone have any Gray Poupon?

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Is anything original

Geoff,

You obviously can't handle a complex debate...I will dumb it down and keep it simple in the future.

Is anything from you original other than your snide remarks?

Your cut and paste, hit and run approach sorely lacks originality. Well since a large portion of your products are re-inventions, I guess this makes sense.

Geoffs favorite sites :

Skepdic.com
Debunkingskeptics.com
Wiki.com

Any others?

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Snarcolepsy is alive and well
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

You obviously can't handle a complex debate...I will dumb it down and keep it simple in the future.

Is anything from you original other than your snide remarks?

Your cut and paste, hit and run approach sorely lacks originality. Well since a large portion of your products are re-inventions, I guess this makes sense.

Geoffs favorite sites :

Skepdic.com
Debunkingsceptics.com
Wiki.com

Any others?

Back at ya, Slick. If it weren't for snarky remarks and personal attacks you wouldn't have ANY ammo. Thanks for the complexity of your arguments, like "you're biased." LOL. Have you given any consideration to calling for back-up?

Geoff Kait
Machina Exotica

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Not my thread, pal. What was

Not my thread, pal. What was the intent of your "pearls of wisdom?"

I'll leave it up to the readers.

BTW you may want to review the thread and see who has run out of ammo.

The king of snark offended by snark ... That's rich.
( see how I twisted part of your statement to my advantage. Look familiar?)

Now let's rewind to stove piping as this discussion has legs on how the entire industry needs to change.

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need of the change

Does it ever, and yet as all can see it has this way of stalling out. This might be the reason why.

You would think that this industry would be full of listening centers, but after we built ours we were surprised to find that this was not the case. Most of the designers were working out of their homes as more of a garage/factory type setting, or test rooms that really weren't test rooms. The testing was surprisingly low tech in most cases and never once (besides our place) did I see a designer testing at every point of the audio chain to hear how the mechanical conduits reacted to materials. This to me was a major deal breaker. If someone is building audio equipment of any type or even test equipment or really anything that passes a signal I would have thought there would have been testing on that path that the signal is traveling on. This to me is the most fundamental step that all of us as designers should be doing. How can you make a valid comment without having a start to finish testing pond?

michael green
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stovepiping and spins

After reading the threads that at one time looked like they had a direction I needed to bump this thread again.

There is a huge, and I mean huge, difference between a listener and an audiophile spin doctor.

I have to ask, how long has this industry been in the spinning business instead of the listening business? Everytime someone starts to talk about the listening part (what the hobby is supposed to be) these spins come bleeding out of the walls and start filling the room like a B SciFi movie with talk that is never going to help a soul. It's like listening to people talk about things because they have no answers to why they are not getting good sound instead of describing the great sound they have and how they got there, and most of all sharing the parts and pieces of the soundstage that got them there. These threads turn freakishly weird as opposed to a group of guys saying "hey did you hear that".

Hopefully someday listeners will visit and start talking about the hobby of music. Several times now I have seen people come up and make a bold challenge, and as soon as the answer "is" given they either disappear or go into a spin. For those reading this for the first time, I must give my point of reference again http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . A forum about listening and the pathes to get there. Something that is so different than here, but is what should be here.

Come on people, join the hobby of listening. Stereophile is where this began, or at least a big part of it. We should have these pages hopping about our experiences and systems, and most of all the music itself.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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You can't tell the Stove Pipers without a scorecard
michael green wrote:

After reading the threads that at one time looked like they had a direction I needed to bump this thread again.

There is a huge, and I mean huge, difference between a listener and an audiophile spin doctor.

I have to ask, how long has this industry been in the spinning business instead of the listening business? Everytime someone starts to talk about the listening part (what the hobby is supposed to be) these spins come bleeding out of the walls and start filling the room like a B SciFi movie with talk that is never going to help a soul. It's like listening to people talk about things because they have no answers to why they are not getting good sound instead of describing the great sound they have and how they got there, and most of all sharing the parts and pieces of the soundstage that got them there. These threads turn freakishly weird as opposed to a group of guys saying "hey did you hear that".

Hopefully someday listeners will visit and start talking about the hobby of music. Several times now I have seen people come up and make a bold challenge, and as soon as the answer "is" given they either disappear or go into a spin. For those reading this for the first time, I must give my point of reference again http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . A forum about listening and the pathes to get there. Something that is so different than here, but is what should be here.

Come on people, join the hobby of listening. Stereophile is where this began, or at least a big part of it. We should have these pages hopping about our experiences and systems, and most of all the music itself.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Getting back to my intention in the OP for just a second if I can be so bold and interrupt the train of thought, but this is all simply confirmation of what I originally intended by the term Stove Piping, which is that the independent arrival at Big Audiophile Conclusions based on work in the field, work with the Best of Intentions nevertheless lacks the input from all the other Stove Pipers working out there just as independently, who each reach their own Big Audio Conclusions. All of the Stove Pipers swear up and down they have reached the Final Solution. This was precisely the problem for intelligence agencies and why the term Stove Pipers came into existence. And why we still see Stove Piping in action today in world events, World Trade Center, Benghazi, the disappearance of the first Malaysian airliner. There are many examples where competing independent investigations, by not working together, produced independent and conflicting results. There was perhaps some truth in each but none contained the whole truth, the complete picture of reality. Self interest and competition override the requirements for information sharing plus taking the information directly to the top instead of going through the chain of command produces decisions that are not based on all of the facts and may very well be biased towards the interests of the investigating organizations. Sound familiar?

The case of Curveball

Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi (Arabic: رافد أحمد علوان‎, Rāfid Aḥmad Alwān; born 1968), known by the Defense Intelligence Agency cryptonym "Curveball",[1] is an Iraqi citizen who defected from Iraq in 1999, claiming that he had worked as a chemical engineer at a plant that manufactured mobile biological weapon laboratories as part of an Iraqi weapons of mass destruction program.[2] Alwan's allegations were subsequently shown to be false by the Iraq Survey Group's final report published in 2004.[3][4]

Despite warnings from the German Federal Intelligence Service and the British Secret Intelligence Service questioning the authenticity of the claims, the US Government and British government utilized them to build a rationale for military action in the lead up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, including in the 2003 State of the Union address, where President Bush said "we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs", and Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council, which contained a computer generated image of a mobile biological weapons laboratory.[2][5] They were later found to be mobile milk pasteurization and hydrogen generation trailers.

"You shall have no other tweaks before me." ~ Old audiophile expression

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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