You are here

Log in or register to post comments
rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
Room Tuning Experiment Results

All:

For those that don't know, I moved my system from my main listening room; which contains other furniture, a television, etc. to a stripped room with nothing in it except my audio equipment, listening chair, and blinds and curtains to cover the reflective (audio-wise) glass on the solo window in the room.

This new room was smaller than my listening room, at only 8' wide by 13' deep, with a slight cathedral ceiling sloping from about 9' down to 8' and carpeted as well.

At any rate, I found the new experiment to fail. In short, there seemed to be a standing bass wave in the room that NO amount of speaker placement could remedy.

In addition, the soundstage had collapsed to practically a line, and even *behind* the speakers.

Now granted, I could have spent much more time and even money on optimizing this room...but I felt with such a horrendous base to start with, pun intended, I tore it all down and just moved it back to my original, tried and true location.

Thank God nothing in the move upset the sound I have been literally working on for months to grow to.

Lesson learned: the room IS absolutely CRITICAL to audio. If any listeners are absolutely *miserable* with their audio experience, or are looking for a drastic change in their sound, please by all means try a different room! This could change everything for you.

I would stress also from my learning experience that a minimum size room is mandatory. (I would guess due to the general rule of thumb speakers are usually 7-8' apart in many setups in "standard" sized rooms.)

In this case, I believe the width of the room at only 8' was the killer.

Hope this helps others.

Best Regards,

Ron

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Distance between speakers

Actually as I'm fond of saying on these fora the distance between speakers is more often that not considerably less than people think, you know, the conventional thinking goes something like in order to get a wider soundstage you have to place the speakers wider apart, right? And you have to tie them in a little too to aim them at you to improve the imaging, right? Well, actually not right. Start with the distance of 4 feet between the speakers and slowly work them out until you find the sweet spot. I kind of suspect this is especially true for small rooms. Lots of folks have small rooms and obtain terrific soundstage, perhaps even larger than the room dimensions. The room at the shows tend themselves to be on the small-medium size. I'm pretty sure you'll be quite surprised when you obtain the correct distance between the speakers. I also FREQUENTLY recommend the XLO test CD which really is the only fool proof way to set speakers up. Everything else is just guessing.

Tootles,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Run Silent Run Deep

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
RoomTune :)

RoomTune :)

Don't have the tools, won't get the results!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
re: geoff

Geoff:

I totally agree with your points; and also possess the digital files of the XLO test CD.

As for speaker separation, I did in fact start with them near 4' apart. However; mostly due to the unfortunate and very strong Bass preponderance that no amount of speaker positioning could remedy, as well as the fact I already have a main room luckily to fall back to, I dismissed my idea of a dedicated audio room; as nice as that sounded.

I do want to also clarify and echo with agreement that a "small" music room does not necessarily mean a "bad" music room. I think with the cathedral ceiling and just unfortunate acoustics, my particular smaller room presented immediately some serious challenges instead of what I had hoped to be an immediate improvement. Resulting again to just falling back to the main listening room.

Respectfully,

Ron

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Audio Insider

Yup, only so much one can do without a considerable amount of room acoustics stuff. Plus all the other stuff audiophiles are fond of. Takes a long time to get everything right. Everything is relative. It's difficult to know where the sound of our systems actually falls in the overall pecking order at the beginning and for quite some time, mainly because really good sounding systems are VERY FEW and FAR BETWEEN. I rate most systems - even really big systems - somewhere between unlistenable and pedestrian. I was an audio insider from the get go. It's a curse. Lol

"Your hearing is only as good as the best system you ever heard." Old audiophile axiom

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
It's not that hard!

Nah, it's not that hard lol. Just another part of the hobby to practice.

I look at RoomTuning from the positive side, maybe that's because of having more successful listening than un-successful. Last 30 some years it's a piece of cake, with once in a while finding a tough one to deal with. Main thing that makes it easy for me is doing so many of them. Now, I can get to that 3d sound pretty quick. it's all about becoming a listening master. One of my friends "Herns" is one of those guys that can knock tuning out of the park everytime. I love watching a master at work, and Hern's is one for sure. What a set of ears, and not only that but he is able to know which part of the audio-trilogy needs to be dealt with at what time, which is a big part of the art. System tuning is kinda like scaffolding. You make one side work and then pull up the other side, it gets higher, then you go back and keep inching your way up, seeing more of the landscape each time. If you get stuck sometimes, it a lot of times means you went too far in one direction and need to even things back out, and find where you lost part of the signal or just have it out of tune.

For myself it's like this fun video game I get to play each day. I get to tune mine and I get to work with others on theirs. Doesn't get much more fun than that.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
That's some pretty funny stuff.
michael green wrote:

Nah, it's not that hard lol. Just another part of the hobby to practice.

I look at RoomTuning from the positive side, maybe that's because of having more successful listening than un-successful. Last 30 some years it's a piece of cake, with once in a while finding a tough one to deal with. Main thing that makes it easy for me is doing so many of them. Now, I can get to that 3d sound pretty quick. it's all about becoming a listening master. One of my friends "Herns" is one of those guys that can knock tuning out of the park everytime. I love watching a master at work, and Hern's is one for sure. What a set of ears, and not only that but he is able to know which part of the audio-trilogy needs to be dealt with at what time, which is a big part of the art. System tuning is kinda like scaffolding. You make one side work and then pull up the other side, it gets higher, then you go back and keep inching your way up, seeing more of the landscape each time. If you get stuck sometimes, it a lot of times means you went too far in one direction and need to even things back out, and find where you lost part of the signal or just have it out of tune.

For myself it's like this fun video game I get to play each day. I get to tune mine and I get to work with others on theirs. Doesn't get much more fun than that.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Not that hard, and it only took you thirty years? Shirley, there must be a better way. Lol. I suspect a lot of audiophiles view themselves as listening masters and think their systems are the greatest. And that their hearing is the greatest. Especially those with thirty or forty years under their belts. And after, what, a hundred thousand bucks, at least? What audiophile would say his system sounds like crap? Answer later at 11.
My experience with room tuning, and I have a lot, if you recall I was one of your first customers, that it's like trying to solve two simultaneous equations in three unknowns - you can waste an enormous amount of time dicking around and never actually find the absolute best locations for room acoustic devices. Of course, I don't have that particular worry any more since Headphone listening completely eliminates the room from the equation. Hel-loo! But if you wish to continue to beat your head against the wall, please be my guest So, to summarize, tuning takes a long time, thirty years, to master, and it requires a certain shall we say lifestyle to master it. Kind of analogous to the lifestyle of owners of British sports cars who just LOVE fiddling with their cars. Again, experience! Lol. Plus, in most respects that matter to audiophiles headphones have better sound. Anyone not see the irony?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Run silent run deep

iosiP
iosiP's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 11 months ago
Joined: Jan 12 2014 - 4:41pm
Ron, there is no fast rule for speaker positioning

Let me explain:
- DALI recommends a "balanced" setting, i.e. not too far and not to close from boundaries but no toe-in (so keep your speakers parallel);
- Raidho recommends as much space as possible between speakers, even if those go less than one foot from the side walls and an "aggressive" toe-in, with the speakers aiming at your shoulders;
- Wilson Audio recently issued the "Duette", recommending a near-back wall placing and no toe-in;
- Audio Note speakers are designed to work in corners, with any toe-in required to achieve best bass response;
- finally, Dynaudio recommends their speakers be placed well clear of boundaries, closer than the distance to the listener and with no toe-in.
And this is just about "standard" electrodynamic designs, leaving out omnis (think MBL), planars (think Martin Logan) and horns (think Avantgarde).

Don't follow rules, follow your ears!

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
Don't follow rules, follow your ears!

"Don't follow rules, follow your ears!"

This my friends should be the rule! Listeners need to develope their own personal method of successful listening.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
Excellent Comments

All:

I have found this thread very rewarding in the depth and competence of the suggestions.

In short, Thank you.

I have fallen back to my main listening room, as I really do need to do scientific research in a dedicated, quiet space. (the home office I temporarily stole to try as a dedicated listening room). My goal was never to have this room permanent ..it was just to experiment. Unfortunately, I do not have the time and budget to tune a temporary space...was hoping it was inherently "better" than my original main listening space was all.

Even though on the outside my experiment seems a failure, I instead again have gained a lot of excellent advice from a diverse group of talented people.

Thank You All,

Ron

  • X