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May 18, 2015 - 6:35am
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Reference Listen: Supertramp: Brother Where You Bound
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Thank you Ron for puting referencing back front and center on the stereophile forum!
here's a link to the beginning talks on SuperTramp's "Brother Where You Bound" http://www.stereophile.com/content/any-new-referencing-suggestions
I think this topic would be incomplete if Catch22's excellent comments were not included.
Now I'm late but look forward to coming back for an exciting reference.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Media: Redbook digital file (CD, 44.1kHz, via ripped digital file)
Equipment: Macbook Air, PS Audio NuWave DAC, Creek Evolution 50A Integrated, Epos Epic 2 speakers on Epos Stands, Audioquest King Cobra XLR Interconnects and Audioquest Rocket 33 Speaker cabling.
Special Notes: modified internal wiring of Creek and set it on wooden blocks per a previous post from Michael Green.
My early notes after very first pass through: (note: I listened just straight through and only took notes afterwards; so some of my timing and comments may be off, but that will all be corrected in subsequent, more detailed review)
Holy Sh!t. There is ALOT going on in this song..
Elements of Freddy Mercury, Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel, (some of the percussion), Daft Punk, and I’m sure many others…
Some key notes:
I was surrounded by a very three-dimensional effect of swirling piano of sorts through most of the first part of the song…
And literally a huge drum kit was in my room…from left to right, and front to back… while I realize it was unrealistic in scale, I am certain it was the engineer’s and artist’s intent; as I found myself feeling like I was sitting and playing this huge kit…just pure sonic fun! It was also rendered/recorded/mastered *very* well... very bright and alive. And parts of the song the kick drum was "in my chest". Excellent.
And then.. with another change… into what I would describe Experimental Jazz….LOVED IT..and the percussion… again, stage and room filling and precise…
Overall, I noticed an enormous “presence” or ambience around the vocals the most… a treat of room acoustics, reverb, and other studio magic coming to life in my own room.
And then… roughly 2/3 through with another story telling part of the song (again for lack of a better description)….I hear a girl screaming at the top of her lungs and on my system, she literally came out and through me… for the first time on this system I flinched! I likened the experience to my old Denon X4000 home theatre effects…again, a wonderful if not bizarre treat!
The last part of the song switched over to a Blues feeling...with the entire song being a mixture of many different styles of music...very well done and held my interest all the way through.
In short, I thoroughly enjoyed this piece and will follow up with more precise notes as I do with subsequent sessions.
I look forward to other’s observations.
Kind Regards,
Ron
ps. Well done Michael by including Catch's early observations.
Lucky me, I got rained out! We got to the lumber yard with our trucks and half way through the picking of the wood we saw the rain come over the mountains. No picking today! Sorry, just my side bar to how I ended up being able to stay in and do more listening. I love living in the desert. The greatest natural wood curing plant possible.
I needed to come about and get on the same page here, sorry. When I do referencing much of the time it's the entire LP, and with this particular recording that's what I started doing. You guys probably sat there saying "what girl giggling". I of course was listening to Cannonball, and on through the rest of the LP. I need to get use to songlists instead of LP, a sign of my generation I guess and maybe profession. With me, referencing takes on many faces, so when I heard Brother Where You Bound, my mind jumped into final mastering mode for some reason, while Ron was talking the song not the LP.
Consider me re-focused, maybe I should be re-tired lol.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
I fell into the CD trap of listening to my favorite songs from multiple albums when the carousel CD players and track programming came into being when I bought my first player back in the 80s. I quickly discovered I wasn't enjoying music as much and got rid of it. It was my first taste of having the lure of convenience alter the way I consumed music. Part of enjoying music is taking albums as a whole and finding that your favorite tracks aren't the ones being played on the radio and you have to listen to the whole album several times to sort that out.
Brother Where You Bound was as much a production as it was an album. Certainly not to the degree that something like The Wall was, but it was an ambitious critique on the rise of conservatism and the role of Big Brother consuming liberty. Listening to the whole album puts the track, BWYB, in context. The guy running across the stage from right to left, follwed by the troops marching behind him makes more sense after you listen to Better Days, the track previous.
Cannonball has a lot to like on its own. It punches you in the gut while clearly indicating that Davies was the Jazz influence of Supertramp, as can be further solidified listening to his mid 90s release of Some Things Never Change. That's another gem of an album sonically and a further advance of the band's jazz capabilities. There's a song on that album called, Sooner or Later, that really morphs into a jazz fest at about the mid portion of the track. It goes from a catchy, but nothing special kinda tune to a 'holy cow that's fantastic' one that makes you wish it wouldn't end.
Ron, you asked about set up and stuff. I don't do anything different when listening to this album except turn the volume up louder than I normally listen. Not only for the impact of the drums, but there are parts of the song where Davies vocals are recorded differently and sound more angry and tortured. A little more volume enhances the parts where his vocals spread through and around the stage as opposed to the solid center vocal on other parts of the song. Clearly done to add to the foreboding nature of the oppresion angst and the general theme of the song. It's a really neat effect as his voice becomes almost as large as the stage.
I'm sure there is a lot more to this song than I'm able to take advantage of, but it's fairly obvious that a multitude of recording techniques are being used throughout the song to either enhance something or to retain sonic purity and it swings from one to the other quite successfully. It's most obvious with the vocal and piano parts, but when they wanted the piano to sound real, it did. The same with the vocals.
I took the liberty of quoting some observations made by Michael and Catch22 in the original thread; I’ve included them below so this thread is complete.
Catch22:
with regards to equipment , it is indeed optional to list what you’re using, but in a thread titled “Referencing…” I think listing one’s equipment and even room to the degree of detail they are comfortable with helps the reader gain literally a reference to what the listener is reporting and reduces confusion while adding clarity. Again, it is optional, though I think helpful. I promise nobody will be judged on their equipment..it’s solely for again to get a reference. This point becomes obvious when I really do insist one lists the media they are using; as there can be tremendous differences between say a 180g first issue LP, vs 320kbit MP3 as opposed to a 192/24 file, vs Reel to Reel, headphones, etc.
Kind Regards,
Ron
All:
I hope my reply to Catch22 helps explain my reasoning behind listing equipment. Either way, welcome to the thread and I encourage any further input from any and all members! We have members who enjoy vastly different types of equipment, including portable cassette players, British "mid-fi", and even professional recording studios... any and all types of systems are welcome, and certainly none are "wrong"!
Here are the quotes for completeness on earlier observations from another thread where we were determining which piece to reference:
I could be using any number of different combinations of gear at any time. Most recently, and for this album, I was using a Rotel RA970BX driving Dynaudio 52SE speakers with a Marantz 67SE player in a 15'x 19' carpeted room. The disc was the original A&M release from 1985. The exact speaker placement is 4'2" from each side wall and 7'2" from the front wall. Speakers on spiked stands with bluetac coupling and sand bags on top of each. The listening chair is 13' 6" from the front wall. Speakers toed in to intersect immediately behind my head. Various furniture, bookshelves, paintings and the like with zero specific room treatments. The listening chair is just inside the presence region of the soundfield.
In this room, and with these components, speaker placement is optimized to generate a flat frequency response at louder listening levels than my other room, which is smaller and tube based so as to add needed dimensionality to a nearfield situation. Plus, tubes just sound better. :)
Oh, I almost forgot, Audioquest Type 4 speaker cables and Kimber PBJ interconnects and two dedicated circuits, one for the digital and one for the other stuff.
Whoa Rotel RA970BX, good man!
I have tuned a bunch of these, the earlier models with the other transformer (pre "94"). One of my favorate audio toys.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Catch22:
You've inspired me with your detailed feedback re: your audio gear to pull out my trusty NAD 7140. :)
Though it is probably much older than your also classic Rotel, I think last time I listened to it (a few months ago) it is still very much sonically a pleasure.
Kind Regards,
Ron
All:
I am hardly a pro; in fact am a beginner, but here is my best effort of Referencing the Supertramp piece:
Equipment covered in first post; however of note, I have defeated tone controls to success.
Speakers are still at a little over 6' apart, 2' from rear wall, and listening chair forming equilateral triangle to sonic perfection with my room and system.
Media:
FLAC 16/44.1 Stereo
SPL: what I believe to be the sweet spot dialed in; ranging greater than 90 but never breaching 100. I double-check to make sure neighbors aren’t home though. lol.
I believe SPL is not discussed enough and deserves a thread of its own, but to briefly continue I am basically playing the song as loudly as my system permits without any audible distortion. Which luckily yields just enough power for my room and taste.
On to the song itself:
A haunting narrative opens.. I find myself immersed in a 3 dimensional soundstage, with hard panning and severe stereo separation to excellent effect... and that awesome synth riff near :55 in with the lush background synth strings….that brief lead synth reminds me of another great song: Radioactivity by Kraftwerk (the 6:41 version). Any Kraftwerk fans will immediately get the reference, and Supertramp nails it here.
At 1:35, the 3D "swirling" piano begins it is distinctly alternating in front and behind my speakers on my soundstage, augmented with panning..just one of the best effects I have experienced in audio… and percussion also introduced….along with crystal clear vocals with excellent studio effects applied…then energetic electric guitar. This is Rock ’n Roll.
At around 3 minutes in, the absolutely massive drum kit is revealed as mentioned in my first pass earlier in this thread. I am loving the slight delay of the vocals between right and left channels. Awesome engineering.
At 4:30, cue sax. A lot of songs are over by now..this one is just beginning…I am practically in a trance…massive drums, mesmerizing piano and vocals. It is hard to put numbers to my soundstage..it just feels organic ..analogue if you will and everywhere…and very well resolved with ambience and presence. All I can say is it is somehow larger than my physical living room and I now know I am at audiophile level with my equipment. Each drum is easily placeable from the other..again it is like I’m playing them..with left to right and fore and aft..This is definitely a top notch recording.
At around 6:40, introduce solo electric guitar…no doubt Gilmour. it’s chilling. He owns the stage for awhile..
What has been rock ’n roll, at around 8:33 subtly shifts to a jazz hint on the drum kit..then piano..
Now it’s experimental jazz..a screaming crowd fills my room..the suspense is palpable..piano amazing..near 9:40, the now infamous woman’s scream! Jumps right out and through me! Excellent effects here.
Near 10:40, cue the Peter Gabriel like percussion and guitar with an almost reggae/world flavour..very present and real and space around each piece. I feel like I am at a live venue or stage; but without the distracting audience. Again, the percussion is resolved so crisp and sharp where it’s supposed to be. My little Creek & epic 2’s are shining.
Power chords and another shift in style after 13:30..jazzy piano and blues vocals..cue lead guitar again roughly around 14:30..obviously Gilmour taking the stage..I can’t repeat enough how well recorded this piece is..and it really shows me what my system is capable of. When I am not taking notes and analyzing, I forget about the fact I’m listening to a system and just feel the music as if I were transported right to it and immersed in it.
Listen On!
Ron
Hi Ron
Now you can understand why I talk so much about the stage in the threads before you came along. If someone was listening to the recording limited to the space of their room or worse the area inbetween their speakers only. the message would be lost. Here's the interesting point to make though. Almost all recordings are this size. There is air behind the listening position in almost every recording we listen to. Plenty off to the extreme sides and usually a front to back that is well beyond 12 or so feet deep.
The key is to find the recordings that do this easily on your system and then find those that don't and bring that stage out of them.
It would be interesting if more people were here describing their stages as you would find some who didn't have your space, and you could show them how your setup allows you to get this.
Now that you have this, I would recommend a few recordings. Roger's "Amused to death", "Pros and Cons of hitchhiking", as you said almost any of Kraftwerk, dust off Autobahn, all of Peter's, don't forget "selling England By The Pound", Alice's "welcome to my nightmere" and a ton of others, could go on for ever. All with huge soundstages if you can find them. Oh yeah sorry, got to do some talking heads on that stage. Any Floyd, Julee Cruise "floating into the night".
What I'm saying is now that you have found this size, try to keep in your mind when you hear something smaller, more than likely it's not the recording that is not giving it, but the system. Sorry names keep coming into my head, dead can dance, David Bowie, Paul Simon. So many!
Sorry to be off topic, I'm just very excited for you :)
and it only gets better
never let the system limit you, let the music guide you
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael:
Apologies unnecessary!
I welcome your musical suggestions. I will definitely hunt down a few of those I don't have; and now that I know my system is heading where I like it, I will definitely enjoy re-playing a lot of my collection. I have't played vinyl in quite some time. It will be interesting to see how it sounds now. Perhaps we could start a separate thread on "Achieving Sound Stage with your setup" or something similar....
Of a silly note, I actually also found merely increasing the volume helped as well! Hence, I mention it in the beginning of my critique. I also see Catch22 mentions "cranking up the volume" as well.
Speaking of critiques, I'm looking forward to hear more of your analysis and setups wrt the song being referenced.
Cheers,
Ron
ps. I've been critical of my little Creek since spending the most I've ever spent on a home audio component, but now I finally get it.. the thing is worth every cent to me at this point and I am left wondering what I can get out of my vintage NAD 7140 and am curious to learn other listener's experiences with their specific systems.
Hi Ron
They're absolute Gems aren't they! a statement not a question
I got to run, but a lot of this is about (as I said before) taking these units back to the place where they were at their absolute, and most of the time that absolute was before the products got ready for shipping. Before they were made safe for moving. We have to picture the designer at his bench making his perfect component. At what point did he find the magic? After that point it's usually in the hands of other people who are trying to keep the thing from falling apart in shipping, or even the guys incharge of the looks. You can see why they can't tell you this, but most all high end audio, or for that matter all audio products, have stages in the design, and most times while on the bench or the key listeners room a point where the design exploded with sound, and that's the place you want to find. That my friend is your true starting point with any component.
be back later, enjoy your new world :) also don't forget your just being with the materials under and around your components
:) fun stuff
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
"I believe SPL is not discussed enough and deserves a thread of its own,..."
I couldn't agree more.
As it relates to this piece, because of the quality of engineering, fortunately, you can play it loud enough to take advantage of the visceral nature of the music without the usual pitfalls of lesser recordings. No siblance and only a small amount of Gilmour's guitar work piercing the eardrums.
I think you made a good accounting of the music in your description. I would only add that I think this track makes it pretty clear that what many people consider to be low frequency extension isn't low frequency extension at all. Visceral impact is higher in frequency than is required by the addition of subwoofers in a whole lot of music. If not this track, Cannonball certainly makes that clear. In Cannonball, the drummer has the bass drum mounted at eye level and off to the side and is striking it with a mallet. And it sounds and feels like no kick drum I've ever heard. I'd hazard a guess that we're talking above 45hz punching you in the gut.
My highs aren't bright at all. The system was tuned for some other music, and I was expecting Brother to be tilted, but I lucked out. The highs are nice and relaxed. Most SuperTramp recordings have a slight tilt. I'm guessing this is happening in the mastering. I usually have to tone it down, so this was a nice surprise. Instead of the tilt there's a smooth floaty expression. As a result all of the upper end has even more air and extension, and very spread out.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
In the middle of the night I got the explore itch, so took a seat and started to take a look at the recording. Started with the runner. Now keep in mind I wasn't there but am fairly familar with the info, and even though room one is not the "tunable room" it's not doing half bad. With "dark side" on my mind I figured I could fatten up the runner a little, make him taller and the same with the troops so it felt more like a chase scene. Your running away and big brother is coming to find you type of thing. I first made a slight adjustment to the upper RT center tune. This is an RT Square that is hanging loosely about 1' off of the front wall. I moved it forward about 2" and the front to back extented itself along with the Mid-height space. This moved me to a 12' high ceiling with the instruments even more relax but with a bolder presence. A thicker drive. The runner took a different position. Now he starts far off right stage, 10' or so past the right speaker 5' behind the speaker, with very pronounced smack/echo smack/echo with every landing. The plus to this is it now looks more like real foot step placements. I need to go back in and measure the distance between the steps to give an idea of the spacing, but they have become bigger and feel much more like someone running. Also as a note: the run through the room has no banana or shift to or around the speakers. The speakers are not there. I can even move my head to right inbetween the speakers and the soundstage doesn't blink an eye. Meaning I can sit with the speakers directly on either side of me and have a stage with no holes or exaggerations, phasing or things running to the speakers. The only change is the feeling of sticking your head out the window to see wants going on out on the street. for notes: this is set up with zero toe-in.
The troops now are more of a wall front to back 6' tall surrounded with an echo. The whole experience is now like a person running down a street with troops following in pace, lined up across the street. I haven't read any liner notes on how this was done or even if this was the intent, but this is how that stretch is tuned now.
Davids guitar is still not bright or bite-e, and the more removed parts that are back in the soundstage shortly after his solo almost appear with halo spot light type of sense, very visual now.
Follow the french horn (synth I believe but very convincing), at the end it gets into this floaty synth, and way off in the distance this percussion pattern, hit hit, hit hit hit repeated. I'll go after this next, but wanted to play with the runner scene.
Have fun!
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael:
I must admit, I am jealous of the musical sonics you are achieving. If you don't mind, please state the details of your system here; as I asked in this thread. If multiple systems are owned, just state the details of the one on which the reference from the quote below was taken. That's what this particular thread is partly all about. Mostly, I am interested in your source media, as well as DAC if any is involved, amplifier or integrated, and speakers as well as interconnects and any other system/hardware specific details. I hope to learn from you. And I am certain many others would benefit as well.
Also, please reference around what time in the recording you are referring.. for I personally am lost. And usually I find if I am confused, most everyone else is. Ive learned that from university. Here is a quote to where I am referring:
To talk and give a report of soundstage and other observations that are most likely in the top 2% of audio systems is kind of futile without backing it up with the details of said system so that curious readers/listeners like myself; and especially given we are in a column on Stereophile, where we all talk about systems, would be again not only of benefit, but I have made it clear the point of this entire thread.
Forgive me if I am being direct, but I see you yourself pretty much also frustrated at others on these forums who "hide" their systems and abilities. So this is your chance to do as you say and say as you do; or practice what you preach.
On a friendly note, I am genuinely just curious as to your system and am certain I could learn a thing or two. It is by now a given the room is tuned.
Respectfully,
Ron
I think the runner mg refers to is around 10:10 or so into the recording... in the "experimental jazz" part and shortly after the screaming lady. The "runner" started in my soundstage started about three feet to the right of my right speaker, extended all the across stage and behind my speakers by about 4', then exits left about same 3' outside of speaker. Not bad.
My tuning: turned the volume up. ;-)
Kind Regards,
Ron
Hi Ron
Sounds like your getting a nice stage.
I don't have a timer on my system, I go by cues.
Thought I gave my systems earlier (?)
source
I think what you are talking about are the electronics perhaps. I'm using my hot rodded Maggie 2300 CDP. A little more done up than the one I recommended for you. It sits on LTR Blocks, Brazilian Pine Platform with LTR spacers and rails. It Has a poplar canopy for top tuning. MTD Rods. This all sits on the Music Ply floating floor, which sits on the upstairs subflooring.
amp
The Amp started as a Sherwood 4105. It's stripped to the circuit board and made into a one input unit by passing all the other jacks and FM. I left it still remote usable but that's about it, poor thing. Looks like a train wreck. The Transformer is done with Type-1 as well the power cable and interconnect (the type-1 picasso). Everything is hardwired except the picasso.
interconnect & wire
The Picasso does not use a barrel.
I've converted as much of the system to my 22 gauge wire as possible.
The system runs into one duplex and then dropped to the circuit box directly below. From circuit box to transformer is 18'. The circuit box is also hot rodded, and rest on a Brazilian Pine Tuning Board.
speakers
Speakers in room 1 are the Mini Mods & Viola stands on Sonata 2x2 Platforms. The Mods are on their side for small room placement 38" from floor to mid-drivers.
acoustics
RT Squares (at the moment)
Design summer is coming up so the systems will be changing some. In Room One soon will be some tubes followed by our amp and a class D. We will also be bringing in a Studer Pro CDP and my CAT Pre-amp, along with some Coda and Audio Note gear.
But for right now this is what I have been tuning on for Brother.
Let me know if you have any questions. I know it doesn't sound like any stock stuff, but it's a whole-lotta-fun.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael:
I am so glad you replied! What a unique system! Clearly much to learn from.
The only thing I am slightly unclear are the speakers ..are they DIY? Or a brand? If a brand, could you post a link? (a google search returned no results based on "Mini Mods"). If the are DIY, please go into more details... such as are they 2-way, closed box; or ported?dipoles? etc.
Also, thank you for the compliment in sound stage...coming from you, that is a serious compliment! Although both yourself, Geoff Kait, and others on this forum helped me in getting my system to where it is today.
Thanks In Advance,
Ron
Hi Ron
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t72-mga-speakers
Above is the speaker line.
I've been listening to the original version and shortly will be puting in the Mini Mod II.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/