geoffkait
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Polarity and wire directionality revisted
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I especially liked the part about how the ear works. I probably should do a bit more reading on how loudspeakers work and various designs as I find the whole mess very interesting.

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i suspect there might be an error in the article i linked to, mthat being that the author's theory is that the effects of wire directionality overwhelm as it were the effects of polarity such that the reviewer or5 experimenter whatever might make th3e mistake of assuming the difference he hears is due to polarity when it is in fact due to wire directionality. OK., heres the problem with that theory: wire directionality manifests itself by a wire or cable sounding better in one direction than the other. no disagreement there. however, the problem is that without the intention of assembling all components and all capacitors, transformers, speaker internal wiring with directionality in mind, all wires and cables and electronic components are a pig in a poke, some are in the correct direction, some aren't. so the systrem as a whole is partly wired and cabled in the correect direction, partly in the wrong direction. the probability is any given wire or cable is in the incorrect direction is 50%. thus, reversing the direction of L and R at the speaker, for example, only reverses the direction for all the elements the signal travels through, but it DOES NOT ALTER the 50% probabllity situation. It would very lucky if the situation weas say 70=30% right/wrong direction. The ONLY way to fix the situation with respect to wire directionality is to ensure ALL cables and wires are in the correct directions, which means the best sounding direction. but this cannot be done by simply changing connections.

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Geoff Kait
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Since the "correct" direction is marked on the wires, the probability is far from 50/50. We also may presume that speaker manufacturers use the correct direction of wires and components inside their boxes (at least, when said boxes ar prices as much as a car).
OTOH, one can use "Japan-style" polarity for their XLR interconnects: that would not change the current flow in the wires(as they are not referenced to ground) but only cause a 180 degree phase shift of the signal. So yes, I think it's also possible in the analog domain.

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iosiP wrote:

Since the "correct" direction is marked on the wires, the probability is far from 50/50. We also may presume that speaker manufacturers use the correct direction of wires and components inside their boxes (at least, when said boxes ar prices as much as a car).
OTOH, one can use "Japan-style" polarity for their XLR interconnects: that would not change the current flow in the wires(as they are not referenced to ground) but only cause a 180 degree phase shift of the signal. So yes, I think it's also possible in the analog domain.

I'm quite sure that you will not find ARROWS on the wires inside speakers or the internal wiring
of components or on the wires of capacitors or on the wires of inductors or transformers. I am not referring to those cables that DO have directional ARROWS inscribed thereon. And it's for that reason any given piece if wire in the system, any unmarked cable, and capacitor, any inductor or transformer, etc. has a 50% chance of being in the "correct" direction. Unfortunately we cannot assume manufacturers of speakers know all this, in fact as well known speaker manufacturer refused to have any part of wire directionality and argued until he was blue in the face. Of course, there are some cable manufacturers and fuse manufacturers who are familiar with the concept.

Geoff Kait
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Since manufacturers of serious audio gear specify the polarity of the power chord (in countries where you can plug them both ways, of course) and some even signal reversed polarity of the power supply, there must be some internal wire/component orientation used in their gear.

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iosiP wrote:

Since manufacturers of serious audio gear specify the polarity of the power chord (in countries where you can plug them both ways, of course) and some even signal reversed polarity of the power supply, there must be some internal wire/component orientation used in their gear.

Wow, you really are an optimist, aren't you? Let's say you're right, which I seriously doubt, that manufactures of some high end amps or CD players keep track of the direction of internal wiring, capacitors, resistors, inductors and transformers, fuses, etc. You still have the directional wire issue for all cabling, including tonearm wiring, and the speaker internal wiring and speaker crossover and speaker fuses. That's a whole lotta wire directionality to keep track of! By serious manufacturers I assume you mean like Dart Zeel? If you can demonstrate that Dart Zeel keeps track of wire directionality in their $144,000 Monoblocks I will concede the argument.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

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geoffkait wrote:

You still have the directional wire issue for all cabling, including tonearm wiring, and the speaker internal wiring and speaker crossover and speaker fuses. That's a whole lotta wire directionality to keep track of!

My speaker wires have arrows, the interconnects are balanced (XLR) so no way to plug them the wrong way and I do not use an analog source.

geoffkait wrote:

By serious manufacturers I assume you mean like Dart Zeel? If you can demonstrate that Dart Zeel keeps track of wire directionality in their $144,000 Monoblocks I will concede the argument.

Nope! By serious manufacturers I also mean Classe Audio (among others), who have right/wrong supply polarity indicators on their gear (even on the $4.000 integrated).

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I ran across an article by a guy who is dedicated to the issue of polarity and spends a lot of time documenting CDs and players as to who preserves absolute polarity and who doesn't. Some very big names not only do not attempt to preserve absolute polarity, several of them mislabled it on their players when they even made an effort to address it. Oppo and Benchmark, for example.

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I cannot hear polarity reversal in the digital domain but can hear it in the realm of analog.
Proof: I use a CD player both as a transport and as a player. I cannot hear any difference from switching polarity while using it as a transport but can hear it when using it as a player. My conclusion is that Doug Blackburn is right!

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iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

You still have the directional wire issue for all cabling, including tonearm wiring, and the speaker internal wiring and speaker crossover and speaker fuses. That's a whole lotta wire directionality to keep track of!

My speaker wires have arrows, the interconnects are balanced (XLR) so no way to plug them the wrong way and I do not use an analog source.

geoffkait wrote:

By serious manufacturers I assume you mean like Dart Zeel? If you can demonstrate that Dart Zeel keeps track of wire directionality in their $144,000 Monoblocks I will concede the argument.

Nope! By serious manufacturers I also mean Classe Audio (among others), who have right/wrong supply polarity indicators on their gear (even on the $4.000 integrated).

As fate would have it, polarity of the Classe amplifier, as nice as they are to provide whether or not the polarity of their amps is inverted or not, should not be confused with the directionality of internal wiring, fuses, capacitors, etc. That is kind of the whole point of my posting the OP. It might seem a little unkind of me to point out that cables with XLR connects are still directional. For that reason alone - inability to try the cable both ways - is sufficient to keep me away from balanced cables.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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I'm talking about the polarity of the power supply, i.e. if the hot and ground are properly connected (the polarity of the audio signal is another story already). Why would they do it if they assemble ihe innards no matter how? Furthermore, I can easily hear differences between the two positions of the power plug, which means that wires, capacitors, resistors and other stuff is properly assembled.

And BTW, the only ways of reversing polarity in the analog domain are a) using the internal phase 0/180 phase switch on the preamp, b) using a non-stabdard pin assigment on the XLR or c) reversing speakers cables (either at the amp or the speaker end). Out of the three, only the last is affected by wire/component directionality., which limit your caveat to the crossover network (speaker wires are usually marked for direction).

Furthermore, with the exception of some exotic designs that use different metals and/or topology for the hot and ground leg of the speaker cables, most cables just use the same kind of wire for both legs, with the "right" direction of the RED wire leading from amp to speaker and the "right" direction of the BLACK wire leading from speaker to amp. Therefore, if you change the wires at the amplifier end (RED to BLACK and BLACK to RED), all you have to do is also reverse the cables so as the arrows point from speakers to amp. Thie will make the BLACK wire hot (and with the "right" direction from amp to speakers) and the RED wire ground (and with the "right" direction from speakers to amp.
If you change the RED and BLACK wires at the speaker end it's even easier since the this maintain the "right" direction for the speaker cables.

Conclusion: the only thing you should be worried about is the position of components in the crossover network.

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I could V well be wrong.......(insert snarky comment here)....
But my understanding is that the arrow on interconnects in particular are only indicators of which end the the shielding is terminated on.

Bill - on the Hill
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iosiP wrote:

I'm talking about the polarity of the power supply, i.e. if the hot and ground are properly connected (the polarity of the audio signal is another story already). Why would they do it if they assemble ihe innards no matter how? Furthermore, I can easily hear differences between the two positions of the power plug, which means that wires, capacitors, resistors and other stuff is properly assembled.

No it actually doesn't prove that the wires, capacitors, Etc. are Installed with directionality in mind. All it probably means is you can hear the directionality of the wire in the power cord. I assume you are referring to reversing the direction of the power cord and not just flipping the plug on the wall around. With Directionality in mind is what I assume you meant by properly assembled. Amplifier manufacturers would probably be the last place I would expect to see all wiring, etc. Installed according to directionality. Nor would I expect an amp manufacturers to use an expensive aftermarket power cord or aftermarket fuse. They just aren't into it. I'm not saying they don't have a methodology of some kind for assembling and wiring their amps, but I will eat a bug if you can prove that ANY amp manufacturer pays attention to directionality of internal wiring, including capacitors and transformers. Scout's honor. I'm not referring to polarity, only directionality of wire.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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All of your parts and cable can be reset if you end up getting them out of balance. The thicker the leads, connectors or wires are the more stubborn the reversal, but it can be done. Some parts sound better after flipping them a couple of times.

For someone who doesn't mind taking the time to do it right flipping can make a part sound far better than burning it in the same directions it's whole life. But you have to know what your doing and what to listen for while flipping.

But there's another problem with burning parts in and playing with direction, and that is back flow. This is a problem that happens a lot but because no one has talked about it they don't know it exist. They hear it happening but have no idea why it is happening. This problem happens when you hook up a signal passing conduit (like a speaker cable) to a part that has far too much mass (like a banana plug or heavy terminal). It happens with the cable, leads, parts and even dielectric all the time in systems.

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I never cared to dismantle my power cords. OTOH, living in Europe allows me to flip the plug at will, and find the best sounding position. And BTW, flipping also affects the direction of the wires.

P.S. I added something to my last post.

Later edit: Do you know how the assembly workflow is? Most of the time the assembly technician receives the wires pre-cut, pre-formed and with the isolation stripped at the ends.
Now do you know how these get like this? A worker simply takes the wire from a large spool, inserts it in a "forming" machine which, when activated, shapes, cuts and stripes the wire. Therefore, it suffices to put the spool (or rather the machine) in the proper direction and voila.
Yes, it is possible for the worker to manually cut a longer wire and insert it backward into the machine, but then why would he do this?

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Like when I accidentally plugged my DAC (switch-mode PSU) into the outlet previously used bu the preamp (traditional PSU) and the other way around. The sound went metallic and shrill, but did restore after a couple days of use - I was too lazy to reverse the cords, and I was also interested to find out how much it will take to return into balance.
Also, plugging a component into a "not played before" outlet takes a while to settle.

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iosiP wrote:

I never cared to dismantle my power cords. OTOH, living in Europe allows me to flip the plug at will, and find the best sounding position. And BTW, flipping also affects the direction of the wires.

P.S. I added something to my last post.

Later edit: Do you know how the assembly workflow is? Most of the time the assembly technician receives the wires pre-cut, pre-formed and with the isolation stripped at the ends.
Now do you know how these get like this? A worker simply takes the wire from a large spool, inserts it in a "forming" machine which, when activated, shapes, cuts and stripes the wire. Therefore, it suffices to put the spool (or rather the machine) in the proper direction and voila.
Yes, it is possible for the worker to manually cut a longer wire and insert it backward into the machine, but then why would he do this?

Are you suggesting that everyone assembles wire with direction in mind? How about transformers - are you suggesting transformers are assembled and installed with directionality in mind? And are you suggesting that the capacitors are installed with direction in mind? And are you suggesting that fuses are inserted with the directionality in mind? Why would workers be worrying about directionality when the designers do not even acknowledge directionality. Hel-loo!

Extra credit: do you think high end power cords, the really expensive ones, pay attention to directionality of the (stranded) wire? Especially the ones with EIC connector on one end you can't flip around to pick the best sounding direction.

Geoff Kait
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...wired and assembled with or without care for directionality, the question is whether you get a different sound if changing the phase of the signal. Do not forget that - right or wrong as it may be - you still use the same system when assessing the sound of both in-phase or reverse-phase connections, so I don't give a damn if the gear is properly wired and assembled or not. Yeah, I agree you might find the reverse phase to sound better than the "normal" one, but just understand that what's happening inside your gear has no influence, the only thing that matters is your crossover network.

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"Like when I accidentally plugged my DAC (switch-mode PSU) into the outlet previously used bu the preamp (traditional PSU) and the other way around. The sound went metallic and shrill, but did restore after a couple days of use - I was too lazy to reverse the cords, and I was also interested to find out how much it will take to return into balance.
Also, plugging a component into a "not played before" outlet takes a while to settle."

Hi Costin

This is a part of the hobby that I love to design. I know the idea of taking apart things isn't your cup of tea, but it's pretty remarkable to hear what you can do with parts as you open them up. A lot of people talk about keeping things going in one direction but if you take the time to run parts one direction for a while and then flip it the other way, and keep repeating this as you get to know the part, you can turn a part into a super conduit. I have charted this with hundreds of parts (shows how boring my life is lol), and it's really pretty shocking to hear how much of an improvement a part can go through.

Again this brings us back to the word tuning that I know you were getting tired of, but imagine taking all of your parts and running them at their full potential? I have never set out to put a number on this but I would say a part sitting in the average component going in one direction without being flipped properly is maybe a third as good sounding as one that has been burnt to it's fullest. The clarity and smoothness is something to behold. That metallic and shrill sound you mention is how high end in general sounds to me now that I have moved to opening the signal up. It's crazy how I can play Cd's that others can't even touch without their system going shrill but on mine and others who do these practices it's smooth as can be.

This is also a big problem with digital components. People say it's the recording but when I make these changes to a simple CD player they smoke the other components. Same can be done for a NAS, or any digital source. Once people settle down here a little I'd like to show people some things about their digital that they may not know. But we have to go through the thorns to get to the roses. Many have emailed me since I've been posting here expressing how tough it is for audiophiles to change their thinking. So I've been biding my time till we can get around to fixing some of these audiophile problems that we have figured out a long time ago and are doing them every day.

Audiophiles, as said by some of this forum members, to me in private or on my forum are an extremely stubborn people. They have a hard time fixing problems that aren't all that hard to do. But what I don't get is why would someone who is having a problem with their sound not want to fix it? I would think the music would be more important to them than the need to go in audio circles.

oh well, time for some Dire Straits :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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wkhanna wrote:

I could V well be wrong.......(insert snarky comment here)....
But my understanding is that the arrow on interconnects in particular are only indicators of which end the the shielding is terminated on.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

Am pretty sure the product with Arrows comes with instructions indicating which direction the Arrows should point. The Arrows on most cables that have Arrows indicates the direction of current flow, which should be interpreted as the direction AWAY from the source TOWARD the speakers, to prevent those AC signal challenges from cropping up. If there are any manufacturers that use Arrows to indicate shield direction one assumes they would be kind enough to explain how to hook up the cables properly. It has been reported that sometimes the Arrows are WRONG, maybe the cables were assembled on a Monday, so to ensure domestic tranquility it is always best to listen with interconnects or whatever in both directions and select the one that sounds best. When interconnects are in the "correct" direction the music will sound more balanced left to right, smoother and more coherent. Of course, the degree of difference you hear depends on how many other cables and fuses in the system are NOT in the correct direction. If you have four fuses in your system the odds are quite good that two of them are in the wrong direction. But which two? Lol

Pop Quiz: for shielded cables With Arrows which way should the Arrows point? Assuming the manufacturer is not referring to directionality of wire, of course.

When you ass-u-me something you make an ass out of me and Uma Thurman.

Geoff Kait
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iosiP wrote:

...wired and assembled with or without care for directionality, the question is whether you get a different sound if changing the phase of the signal. Do not forget that - right or wrong as it may be - you still use the same system when assessing the sound of both in-phase or reverse-phase connections, so I don't give a damn if the gear is properly wired and assembled or not. Yeah, I agree you might find the reverse phase to sound better than the "normal" one, but just understand that what's happening inside your gear has no influence, the only thing that matters is your crossover network.

I'm pretty use we do not have an argument here. I agree that phase (polarity) is audible. But I am saying that polarity would be even more audible if the differences between correct polarity and inverted polarity were not being masked to some degree by (some) incorrect wiring of the internal bits inside the component. I mean, I think that's a pretty big matzo ball hanging out there, the wire directionality thing, since you can't help wondering, Gee, wouldn't the system sound SO MUCH BETTER if ALL wiring, cables, transformers, inductors, fuses, capacitors, etc.were assembled in the correct direction. We already know all wire is directional, I.e., it SOUNDS BETTER in one direction than the other. All that would be required is finding a dude that can actually hear the difference and have him figure out the right direction of everything in the beginning. They just about had a conniption over the manufacturer of JC-1s because they recently had to change some silly capacitors from Rubicons to Nichicons or whatever. You'd think it was the Great Flood. Note: Sadly it was Bob Crump (RIP) who had the ear for that stuff inside the JC-1s.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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geoffkait wrote:
wkhanna wrote:

I could V well be wrong.......(insert snarky comment here)....
But my understanding is that the arrow on interconnects in particular are only indicators of which end the the shielding is terminated on.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

Am pretty sure the product with Arrows comes with instructions indicating which direction the Arrows should point.

When you ass-u-me something you make an ass out of me and Uma Thurman.

Geoff Kait
MachinaDynamica.com

Careful with the assumptions, Geoff. ; )

geoffkait wrote:

The Arrows on most cables that have Arrows indicates the direction of current flow, which should be interpreted as the direction AWAY from the source TOWARD the speakers, to prevent those AC signal challenges from cropping up. If there are any manufacturers that use Arrows to indicate shield direction one assumes they would be kind enough to explain how to hook up the cables properly.......

Pop Quiz: for shielded cables With Arrows which way should the Arrows point?

The gentleman who owns the company i purchased all my interconnects from told me the arrow should point in the same direction as the signal flow. This is same direction in which the cables are 'burned in'. The shielding is terminated 'away' or opposite from the end the arrow is pointed.

geoffkait wrote:

.....If you have four fuses in your system the odds are quite good that two of them are in the wrong direction. But which two? Lol

My cohort & adviser & i have never been able to detect differences in OEM & standard fusses, only the HI-Fi Tuning fuses. Both of our power amps have four fuses. It takes some time to sort when installing them, but is worth the effort.

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You wrote,

"The gentleman who owns the company i purchased all my interconnects from told me the arrow should point in the same direction as the signal flow. This is same direction in which the cables are 'burned in'. The shielding is terminated 'away' or opposite from the end the arrow is pointed."

Ever tried flipping the ICs around in the other direction?

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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For the simple reason that even disconnecting them and putting them back on messes up the sound for at least an hour. You don't lose a lot, but you do lose focus and that's the last thing that usually arrives when cables finally reach stability.

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Catch22 wrote:

For the simple reason that even disconnecting them and putting them back on messes up the sound for at least an hour. You don't lose a lot, but you do lose focus and that's the last thing that usually arrives when cables finally reach stability.

"Faint heart ne'er won fair maiden."

:-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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geoffkait wrote:

You wrote,

Ever tried flipping the ICs around in the other direction?

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

actually, no.
the next time Dan, & i are together we will try it.

Bill - on the Hill
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- just an “ON” switch, Please -

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1. Almost all gear works as a voltage source (there are some that may work as current sources, e.g. the Krall CAST but these are rare).
2. Woeking as voltage sources means that the output impedance (at the source end) is much lower that the imput impedance (at the receiving end).
3. The cables are affected by EMI that induces a parasitic current (not voltage!).
4. Therefore, it's good practice to "close" that current on a low impedance, thus causing a low parasitic voltage (an not on a high impedance,where it would cause a high parasitic voltage).

Conclusion: considering point 2 above, it is best to connect the shield at the source (low impedance) and not at the destination (high impedance). Here, now I hope you are sorted out!

Costin

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"For the simple reason that even disconnecting them and putting them back on messes up the sound for at least an hour. You don't lose a lot, but you do lose focus and that's the last thing that usually arrives when cables finally reach stability."

Hi Catch

More like about 7 days is what we found, when we did the cable change study. We set up a study with listeners around the world doing a cable swap at the same time and reviewed how long it took for a cable change to settle back into a high resolution setup. The out come was the realization that this is a hobby of time and patience. On a simple mechanical tweak an hour or so and you can get a general idea but 3 days into something as major as a cable change is where you start to see the formation of the stage really taking shape. Of course if someone is listening to a system stage that is between their speakers, this is easy to see the opening bell view, but that's like cutting a slice of cake and judging instead of diving into the whole cake and sharing it with family and friends.

I have to do quick judgements cause of time constraints, but I know that these quick setups as much as they might impress are barely scratching the stage surface and most times the client needs to be fine tuned after a week or so depending on how serious of a listener they are.

Our systems are incredible playgrounds for the audio signal pathway, and think about it. Everytime we put on another recording the signal gets reset all over again.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Wkhanna wrote,

"My cohort & adviser & i have never been able to detect differences in OEM & standard fusses, only the HI-Fi Tuning fuses. Both of our power amps have four fuses. It takes some time to sort when installing them, but is worth the effort."

If you have eight OEM fuses I can imagine it would take some time to arrive at the place where all eight fuses are in the right direction. But for HiFi Tuning fuses, since they are marked for direction, not sure I understand why they would require any effort. Even my new Audio Magic Super Fuse is not marked for direction but is directional.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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geoffkait wrote:

Wkhanna wrote,

"My cohort & adviser & i have never been able to detect differences in OEM & standard fusses, only the HI-Fi Tuning fuses. Both of our power amps have four fuses. It takes some time to sort when installing them, but is worth the effort."

..... not sure I understand why they would require any effort.......

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

By your own advise, assume nothing, Geoff.

what Dan & I found with the HiFi Tuning fuses was the characteristics were different depending which way the fuse was oriented. For instance, in my DAC (which has only one fuse), one orientation would put more emphasis on the bass & increase detail in the mids. When reversed, the bass was less intense, but exhibited less bloat, more natural timber and better detail & imaging. And while the mids detail was reduced slightly, it had better flow, musicality and was more involving.

Depending on the individual component & how the fuse effects its inherent characteristics, the overall system signature and the individual’s personal preference the chosen orientation could be different than the one suggested on the fuse.

Also, with the multiple fuses in our amps it is not always obvious which direction the signal flow is by simply looking at the circuit board.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

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wkhanna wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Wkhanna wrote,

"My cohort & adviser & i have never been able to detect differences in OEM & standard fusses, only the HI-Fi Tuning fuses. Both of our power amps have four fuses. It takes some time to sort when installing them, but is worth the effort."

..... not sure I understand why they would require any effort.......

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

By your own advise, assume nothing, Geoff.

what Dan & I found with the HiFi Tuning fuses was the characteristics were different depending which way the fuse was oriented. For instance, in my DAC (which has only one fuse), one orientation would put more emphasis on the bass & increase detail in the mids. When reversed, the bass was less intense, but exhibited less bloat, more natural timber and better detail & imaging. And while the mids detail was reduced slightly, it had better flow, musicality and was more involving.

Depending on the individual component & how the fuse effects its inherent characteristics, the overall system signature and the individual’s personal preference the chosen orientation could be different than the one suggested on the fuse.

Also, with the multiple fuses in our amps it is not always obvious which direction the signal flow is by simply looking at the circuit board.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

My hat's off to you and your cohort as my calculator just blew a fuse when I tried to calculate how many combinations using 8 fuses would be required to obtain the solution for all fuses in the correct direction. You have the patience of Job.

Cheers,
Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

wkhanna
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geoffkait wrote:

My hat's off to you and your cohort as my calculator just blew a fuse when I tried to calculate how many combinations using 8 fuses would be required to obtain the solution for all fuses in the correct direction. You have the patience of Job.

Cheers,
Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

Not as bad as you make it sound.
There four fuses per amp.
The direction of the one at the mains is easy to discern.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

wkhanna
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iosiP wrote:

1. Almost all gear works as a voltage source (there are some that may work as current sources, e.g. the Krall CAST but these are rare).
2. Woeking as voltage sources means that the output impedance (at the source end) is much lower that the imput impedance (at the receiving end).
3. The cables are affected by EMI that induces a parasitic current (not voltage!).
4. Therefore, it's good practice to "close" that current on a low impedance, thus causing a low parasitic voltage (an not on a high impedance,where it would cause a high parasitic voltage).

Conclusion: considering point 2 above, it is best to connect the shield at the source (low impedance) and not at the destination (high impedance). Here, now I hope you are sorted out!

Costin

Thank you, Costin.
I was already aware of the reasoning behind terminating the shield on the source end.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

michael green
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"By your own advise, assume nothing, Geoff.

what Dan & I found with the HiFi Tuning fuses was the characteristics were different depending which way the fuse was oriented. For instance, in my DAC (which has only one fuse), one orientation would put more emphasis on the bass & increase detail in the mids. When reversed, the bass was less intense, but exhibited less bloat, more natural timber and better detail & imaging. And while the mids detail was reduced slightly, it had better flow, musicality and was more involving.

Depending on the individual component & how the fuse effects its inherent characteristics, the overall system signature and the individual’s personal preference the chosen orientation could be different than the one suggested on the fuse.

Also, with the multiple fuses in our amps it is not always obvious which direction the signal flow is by simply looking at the circuit board."

Hi Bill

This is so exciting for me to see you do, cause your inching so close to variable tuning. Here's something I recommend playing with some time. Pick out a recording that you think is on the boomy side. Now put the fuses in a setting that has less bass according to your research, and listen to what happens.

What your going to end up finding is that in time with having a bunch of go to tweaks your going to be able to take recordings that you thought where not so good before and you will be able to bring them to life. Fact is the entire audio chain you have there is extremely tunable.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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wkhanna wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Wkhanna wrote,

"My cohort & adviser & i have never been able to detect differences in OEM & standard fusses, only the HI-Fi Tuning fuses. Both of our power amps have four fuses. It takes some time to sort when installing them, but is worth the effort."

..... not sure I understand why they would require any effort.......

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

By your own advise, assume nothing, Geoff.

what Dan & I found with the HiFi Tuning fuses was the characteristics were different depending which way the fuse was oriented. For instance, in my DAC (which has only one fuse), one orientation would put more emphasis on the bass & increase detail in the mids. When reversed, the bass was less intense, but exhibited less bloat, more natural timber and better detail & imaging. And while the mids detail was reduced slightly, it had better flow, musicality and was more involving.

Depending on the individual component & how the fuse effects its inherent characteristics, the overall system signature and the individual’s personal preference the chosen orientation could be different than the one suggested on the fuse.

Also, with the multiple fuses in our amps it is not always obvious which direction the signal flow is by simply looking at the circuit board.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

I suspect several things. One is that the HiFi Tuning Fues might not be consistent marked, that in fact the directional mark might be simply a way of keeping track of which way the fuse is installed, not pointing in the correct direction necessarily, when evaluating it for direction. iirc my buddy Norm, the dude who's had 28 audio systems, over on another audio forum mentioned the same thing you did - that you had to try both ways regardless of which way the diode symbol pointed. Hifi Tuning a long while ago did not believe in wire directionality and claimed his fuses will break in properly no matter which direction they were installed. He later recanted and began marking his fuses with the diode symbol. I have not had HiFi Tuning fuses but every other fuse I've had in the system, including stock OEM fuses, sounded NOTICEABLY BETTER in one direction than the other - more open, more balanced, more focused, smoother and with better bass. I guess I do not agree necessarily in the sense you apparently feel that the "wrong" direction can sound better in some ways than the "correct" direction... be that as it may, I imagine you would evaluate each fuse one at a time; then after evaluating all eight for direction repeat the whole process at least one more time, since when you listen to the first two or three fuses the first time around the sound of what you're hearing is colored by the remaining fuses that are still in the "wrong" direction. So the Full Monty as it were is not revealed until all fuses are in the "correct" direction. And that could take some time.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

wkhanna
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I understand your rational of the 'Full Monty', or as the technical description would be called a "design of experiments".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments

I freely admit even my OCD has limits.

I need time to just listen, too. ;)

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