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September 23, 2018 - 3:52am
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phono-pre-amp/cables for Thorens 203 - Rotel RA1572?
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Vincent Pho-8 for $299 is an awesome value. I had one and loved it. The PS Audio NuWave was on clearance and I upgraded which is like $1000. Not necessary for your table.
I like the Audioquest Golden Gate or Chicago cables and keep them as short as possible. Good quality without being outrageously priced.
Thanks for the recommendations. So seems like separate phono-stage is a worthy upgrade?
Re phono-pre-amp, I was reading that matching impedance and system capacitance is important, and there are a number of phono stages that offer a lot of adjustments at that end. The Vincent Pho8 seems to only have selector for MM vs MC. The NuWave is a combined phono/DAC, and the Rotel 1572 has a 32bit DAC. Looking more for a dedicate phono stage, as anything digital is likely to be out of date sooner than a phono-stage. Re level of equipment, I am inclined to go possibly one step above the current system, so that I can inch forward in system build as I develop it.
Audioquest cables seem to be well regarded and fairly common. should be able to get by with 2-3 feet.
Most MM cartridges use the same settings and variability is required for MC cartridges. With the Ortofon 2M Blue, I am 100% certain the Vincent is a good match. That being said, if you want more setting the ProJect Tube Box DS2 would be a good choice. It is a bit pricier. This will give you a lot more flexibility through time. Say if you want to try an MC cartridge like a Denon.
The PS Audio NuWave is an analog to digital converter, not a DAC. You would get a digital output that can be connected to a DAC or a computer if you want to rip records. Not advocating for it, just saying that is what I stepped up to from the Vincent. It is a very good phono stage.
The built in stage is mediocre on the Rotel. Not bad but the the Vincent or the ProJect will be better and of course the PS Audio is better than both.
Thanks for clueing me in on DAC vs ADC! Interesting option, indeed.
Re down the road refinements, possibly the most variability I heard is with speakers. I listened to Martin Logan Motion 40 and 60, were beaten by B&W floor at Best Buy (don't recall model), Linn bookshelf, then the B&W CM6, and also B&W 805. The breaking point at diminishing returns was at CM6 to 805s. I can hear a bit more clarity, but not worth 2-3x price. Also listened to Martin Logan electrostatics, while great for vocal low instrumental music, they fell flat with electronica.
I also clearly hear difference in DAC of the Sonos Connect to the Rotel (night and day). Tried also 99c RCA vs Tributaries blue RCA, and I can hear the difference there. Tried digital coax from Tributaries (blue) vs. Audioquest cinnamon, cannot hear an iota of difference.
I may be inclined to try a bit more TT options with different cartridges, possibly also different tables. Have a ProJect 6.1 from 1998 around, so want to see whether I can hear a difference. Being ready for MC is the sort of upward mobility that I have in mind. I also got a ProJect VCS record cleaner, and will dust off my vinyl. Already re-sleeved them all in MOFIs. Will have a look for the PS audio nuwave phono. Seems to be on fire sale, so sounds like a new version is coming. May also look for some other options.
Thanks again for the info.
Your ears are great and you POV and most of what you are hearing is spot on.
If you want to really dig into speakers, you need to branch out beyond Magnolia which does have a wonderful selection. I would look and see if you can get to a Spendor, Focal, Revel and Monitor Audio dealer and throw in Kef. Along with B&W and Martin Logan, you will get a pretty broad spectrum of sound profiles.
The big thing you should hear when you get beyond the CM6 in price and quality is going to be a little more detail but a much deeper and more coherent, three dimensional soundstage. A big part of that will be tour room setup. Are the speakers far enough apart, far enough off the back wall, etc... to give you the exceptional soundstage that higher end speakers can and should deliver.
You should be able to hear a difference between DACs. I am not at all surprised you can't hear a difference between digital cables and is not an area I would advocate spending much more on.
As far as turntables, you will hear a big difference in sound as you rise in quality to a point. If you can, take a listen to a Rega, VPI, Pro-Ject, Music Hall, Thorens, Clearaudio and if you have the money...Linn. I currently own a Linn LP12 that I bought used and also have a Rega RP3 with an ExactII cartridge. For the money, the P3 with Exact II or the P6 (has the external PSU) are good values and deliver spectacular sound for the money but Rega has a particular sound profile that lends itself to certain types of music like Jazz. I would be shocked if you can't hear the difference.
In general, I am a big fan of PS Audio. The NuWave is on "firesale" because it is being discontinued and will likely be replaced with a new model in a few months. I also have a BHK Signature Preamp from them and a Directstream DAC and can't say enough good things about them. The Stellar line is a strong value.
Sorry for late reply; was in transit from Australia to Singapore.
I went to a local high-end store after Magnolia. That's where I heard the Linn CM6 and 805s. I also listened to some AG14 x4 vs. the Cardas 101 speaker cables, and could hear a bit of a difference, so went for the 101. They recommended the Thorens 203 as a decent entry-level high-end option. The TT options with table, arm, cartridge, set-up, phono-stage gets very complex very quickly. So I'll first get my feet wet with the 203 then see where that goes.
Was not surprised by the digital coax cables either. It transmits 0s and 1s, so less of an issue than with analog signal transmission.
Re music I listen to, from Medieval chants, to lots of baroque strings (I play the viola d'amore in full baroque set-up: gut strings, clip-in bow, a = 415 Hz), then punk, indie-grunge, dark wave, electronica. Jazz, classical classics, classic pop/rock is not my thing.
That PS nuwave does sound like a good deal. Will have to wait till after I get back from Asia. Would be nice to hear from someone else. I see you are one of the heavy and well-respected contributors (for a good reason). Yet, another voice would be interesting.
One thing you should not overlook; the length of the cables between the cartridge and phono preamp.
These cables have capacitance (all coaxial cables DO), and this is connected directly to the cartridge, which can affect its sound quality. The degree of change depends on the specific cartridge used and the cables used.
Longer cables have more capacitance, which IS BAD (more likely to affect cartridge performance).
I always recommend that you NEVER use cables more than 2 feet or 0.6m in length between the cartridge and the phono preamp.
I am certainly looking for a phono stage with adjustable capacitance option. Re cables, I've never seen anything shorter than 2'. Keeping the distance of the weakest signal to a minimum is pretty straight forward. I also noticed that Audioquest do not publish capacitance values for their usually reasonably rated cables. It also seems that mathing it out goes only so far. System synergies and personal preferences will eventually decide on optimum settings. Fun times ahead!
Audioquest makes 0.5 meter cables. This is approximately 20 inches, which is shorter than two feet.
Almost all of their cables are available in that length, so use that.
Also, you should invest in a multimeter that has a capacitance test function; that way you can measure the capacitance of any cable. They are available for under $30.
2 ft ~ 0.5 m, imperial vs metric world. Yes, I know there is a 20% difference. I have not seen 10 cm cables.
Re capacitance meter, as far as I read, the cheap ones are worthless because accuracy is not there in the pF range. They may suggest precision, but that is at best half the issue. I think in this case, my ears will the better judge for proper system set-up. Hearing is believing.