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michael green
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The method of tuning

Hi Listeners

Thought I would start this for those wondering about "the method of tuning". We've been talking about it on different threads and people have been starting to do their version of this method of listen so I wanted to give it's own place.

The method is based on the technologies found in musical instruments and using them in the context of the home audio system. Anyone who tweaks can tell you after applying that tweak the sound of the system changed, if it is a working tweak of course. In our testing we have found that "everything affects everything else". In 1989 we started RoomTune and put this into practice. Within a year we went from the acoustical end only to what is now called MGA/RoomTune incorporating all the parts of the audio system and everything within the scope of the system.

We've worked closely with the audio and musical instrument industries to explore the family relationship between the two. At this same time I revisited my history in fundamental interaction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_force and other physics based systems and patterns. The studies I found helped to give some of the reasoning behind our findings, and the practicing research gave the rest. We built a series of listening facilities that we made variable to accommodate our need to reference sound in as many different environments as we could. Our goal became to make the entire audio chain one that was adjustable. By 1992 I was convinced that everything in the music industry including home audio could and should be built on the bases of "the method of tuning". From that point on we found some key points in both the construction of the parts and pieces of audio and the commonalities of the different energies and forces that make the audio system one big musical instrument.

here is my site reference http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

welcome to the "method of tuning"

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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no point of separation

One of the first things we discovered about the audio system is there is "no point of separation" between anything in the systems scope or reach. Meaning the fundamental forces are at work and even though we use words like isolation the parts and pieces in the entire audio chain are a part of energy. Even if we threw an object in the air it would be touching something and affected by the forces of nature (physics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics . We over the years have taken on every term we could find or presented to us to see if the theory or technology could somehow by-pass or replace the laws we live in and found that physics holds true "everything affects everything else". In this right, we found that the audio signal can not and doesn't want to be separated from nature. This rings true with all energy. It isn't only a matter of co-existing but of mingling. Energy is part of an ever moving source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy . instead of trying to separate nature we began to use it's strengths. The technology of "mechanical transfer" we found replaced "isolation" in our terminology. Nothing in the audio system within the laws of nature can truly be isolated. This is one of the first bridges to cross for the audiophile who has been hit over the head with isolation products and theories. It's not isolation in the absolute sense that is being used to treat systems, but a form of dampening.

michael green
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vibration & oscilliation

Vibration is a key component to audio and the audio signal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration . It's not only at the very basics of the musical note, but vibration & oscillation work together as a team in tuning. Here's a look at musical instruments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_instrument and music http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music . Let's also tie in notes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note and harmonics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics . There are many more references to tie the knot, but I want to get us started on some of the connections in our goal.

The goal being to take the audio pressure (music content) produced in the studio or in the equipment and move it through this equipment with the best possible balance. Keep in mind that this balance is within the context of "audio" acoustical, mechanical and electrical.

michael green
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geoffkait
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We've been through all of this
michael green wrote:

One of the first things we discovered about the audio system is there is "no point of separation" between anything in the systems scope or reach. Meaning the fundamental forces are at work and even though we use words like isolation the parts and pieces in the entire audio chain are a part of energy. Even if we threw an object in the air it would be touching something and affected by the forces of nature (physics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics . We over the years have taken on every term we could find or presented to us to see if the theory or technology could somehow by-pass or replace the laws we live in and found that physics holds true "everything affects everything else". In this right, we found that the audio signal can not and doesn't want to be separated from nature. This rings true with all energy. It isn't only a matter of co-existing but of mingling. Energy is part of an ever moving source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy . instead of trying to separate nature we began to use it's strengths. The technology of "mechanical transfer" we found replaced "isolation" in our terminology. Nothing in the audio system within the laws of nature can truly be isolated. This is one of the first bridges to cross for the audiophile who has been hit over the head with isolation products and theories. It's not isolation in the absolute sense that is being used to treat systems, but a form of dampening.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

What you are preaching is just a great big old Strawman Adgument. A logical fallacy. Of course there is such a thing as isolation. Semantics and this weird holistic and alternative science approach you're taking cannot coverup your continued lack of understanding of the subject. Have you considered going back for a technology refresh? After 25 years of plugging away on your tuning enterprise, in a sort of technology vacuum, don't you think it might be a good idea, you know, to kind of catch up with reality?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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electrical

I want to start with electrical first when talking about the system because it is the most familar part, but how familar is it? Above you can read a little about harmonics but what happens if the harmonics in electricity are out of balance?

You've heard of electrical harmonic distortion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics_(electrical_power) but did you think this was only from the outside transformer in. Transformers are power plants, and if in balance deliver the energy needed. However we ran into something early on in our research "multiple transformer distortion". This we started to notice as we added components to the audio chain. As we looked into it the major contributors were transformers and crossover inductors. Everytime we would start to add more we ended up getting less, and the harder it was to control this distortion. We did dampening techniques and conditioning, but the best fix was to go with as few transformers and inductors as possible. This was a big reason in us going with the simple system. We found that by adding to a system caused interference with fields to the point where it started to offset the mechanical part of audio. Meaning interfering with the balance. So simple it became.

michael green
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mechanical

Mechanical is an interesting part to the equation and if you look at mechanic formulas you would think that there was a place of balance that could be reached through isolation, but as we explored this the audio signal always changed. No matter how much effort and research we did we found that the audio signal was in motion. That's when I lucked out with a trip to consult on the space program. They were interested in mechanic transfer but I got to see something that made the lights turn on when I saw their work, mechanical energy in action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_energy . They explained to me, as I showed them tuning, why the audio signal was not something to be isolated. If you look at the reference I just made you'll see the satilite circling the planet. They explained to me that even if we are sensing "stillness" we are apart of energy in motion. They say that stillness is only relative within the context of motion itself, meaning there really isn't a stoping but an alignment that takes place. Bingo the lights turned on and I was able to see how the realitive energy was working within the context of motion itself. The fields, waves and vibrations are all meant to transfer into each other and become part of the mingle of forces.

In other words you can't set any component on any object without that objects transfer becoming a part of the originals transfer. In simple terms, any object touching another object of material become one. Hello, there is not separation, there is no de-coupling.

This is when we started to get serious about mass. Where does the mechanics of mass play into all of this?

next post :)

michael green
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mass & mechanical transer

Everything is connected! Your audio system is one big energy interconnect. One of the smaller parts of this interconnect is air. Technical test :) wave your hand, see it's there. It is connected to the outside of every part of your system. When the temperature changes, so does the system's sound (more proof that there is no real isolation). When the humidity changes so does the system, electtonic charge, electromagnetics and any type of energy source makes a change to the sound. You may notice it and maybe not, but by the end of this you will, if you choose.

Your HVAC is a tuning device, it allows you to make huge changes in the sound and if you get a very good one and your room is in a good insulated area you can do more than you think, but lets leave this for the acoustical part for now.

A little further up the mass chain are the wires. Your wires will play a huge part in the sound of your audio system. For those not understanding the motion of energy, try changing out the type of conductor metal or size of conductor and you will begin to get a little taste of how the motion can be a part of the tune.

There's nothing like doing and back in the 70's I started making wire. Absolutely remarkable what you can do to the signal with the wire. Next the parts leads. for those who have played with this you can see and hear the electromagnetic fields that build up around each part. Leads allow the ambitious to make an audio landscape at will, by changing the direct fields vs the Fab Four forces. Each part in an audio system and it's space of influence is like a mini signal neighborhood, and the circuit board is it's city. A lot in high end audio build thicker, more dense boards but these boards have their own character on the sound. Having a board that matches the components and leads is a hobby all in itself and you might be surprised at what can be done with smaller parts and thiner boards. One of the things we noticed was being able to detect more subtle details to the music by using smaller low mass parts well organized neighborhoods and Top Tuning. Top Tuning is when you send some of the vibrations of a unit up as well as gravity pulling down. This gives the balancing act of energy a huge boost over what people call isolation, and is one of the tricks to tuning.

Transfering energy we found to be far more effective, when having the energy go up as well as down. We're not talking about weight on top but a separate tuning device that has it's own legs with a Tuning Board that sits over the unit and a Tuning Rod going down to touch any part or section of the circuit city (no pon) below. If you think high mass dampening does something, wait till you hear low mass with top tuning. Not even in the same league. Mass and gravity doesn't compare to opposing direction tuning and tention tuning.

simple example

Those who have listened to your cork between the board and the stand off just resting, and then putting the screw in. When you applied tention to both sides, the head of the screw and the top of the standoff, you experience a partial step in transfer, but even that little bit is enough to show a difference in methods. Take a look at Tuneland and you will see this method in more detail.

As we explored top tuning and general transfering we found ourselves going with less mass on the components and component parts. Every step we took gave us more dynamic range and size plus detail to the sound. This must be done as a balanced approach or you will not hear the differences as much but if you spend the time and learn how to balance the vibrations your systems performance will keep gaining the benefits and you will find yourself with a much smaller and simpler audio setup.

here's a tip

After hearing the affects of change by adding materials save your self the long road and turn around, and start thinking about "the simple system". I'll tell you why, look at TuneLand and you will see all these guys on their own going to the end of dampening only to turn around and coming all the way back to simple. The tuning if done correctly and in balance will pass up a higher mass system pretty quickly in performance. Don't think mass think smart transfering using both gravity and top tuning. I say this cause if you read, you'll see people getting a lot better sound as they realize that the high end may (because of mass and build) not go as far as starting with simple from the beginning. I personally know many guys who have paid for their completely tunable setup by selling off a component. I only tell you this because of how many people I've heard say I wish I knew this from the start. I think we all assumed that the high end parts would sound better than the low mass ones but I have not seen this to be the case most of the time. But again someone should take their own journey.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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Logical fallacy regarding MASS, dial M for Murder

As fate would have it we already know, at least the ones that have been experimenting with mu metal that at least in the case of Mr. Transformer it is not the MASS that's the problem as you have concluded. The problem, as we have been discussing, and I use the word WE editorially since someone doesn't have his listening ears on, is that the transformer generates a magnetic field that affects not only the transformer itself but all things surrounding the transformer, wires, capacitors, you name it. Therefore, especially if you were hanging your hopes and dreams of a lighter world on the overweight transformer, I would like to be first to disabuse you of your belief. The real problem is not MASS but another M word, dial M for Murder. Magnetism.

Some things make you taller
Some things make you small
The things that Mother gives you
Don't do anything at all.

Cheer up, it's only a hobby

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

iosiP
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Geoff, shouldn't the other M words take care of this?

Like in Mu Metal shielding?
Sorry to disappoint you but most transformers physically vibrate, no matter what you do (encase them in resin, damp them with beeswax, fix them to the chassis with one-inch screws). Now do you think a 50Hz mechanical vibration (that would be 60Hz for you) is a nice thing to have in a box full of sensitive components?
Just tap on a capacitor or tube of your nice headphone amp and tell me if you liked the results...

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Wake up and smell the coffee!
iosiP wrote:

Like in Mu Metal shielding?
Sorry to disappoint you but most transformers physically vibrate, no matter what you do (encase them in resin, damp them with beeswax, fix them to the chassis with one-inch screws). Now do you think a 50Hz mechanical vibration (that would be 60Hz for you) is a nice thing to have in a box full of sensitive components?
Just tap on a capacitor or tube of your nice headphone amp and tell me if you liked the results...

I never said vibrating transformers were a good idea. In fact I have been yelling it from the top of my lungs for months, that they need to be damped and all the circuit boards need to be isolated. Hel-loo!! Haven't you been paying attention? Haven't you been following the saga of the cork and the mu metal? Finally, are you on prescription medication or have you been is some horrible motorcycle crash recently? If so, I will take it easy on you, just let me know. But for a phd you can be a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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transformers

Since Geoff brought it up on this thread I'll cover what I said about transformers on other threads.

Transformers are field generating power plants that should be addressed one way or another. They honestly should be no where near the other parts (depending on size) and if you do not move them a good distance or know how to use the energy they create than building a shield would be the last resort but I always recommend people spend a fair amount of time dealing with each individual transformer as a unique issue. Very rarely is there a one size fits all and anyone who spends time working with electromagnetic fields will tell you that yes, completely surrounding the transformer is one sound, but you can also get some weirdness in some frequency ranges. Best bet is to have a system with as few transformers and inductors as possible (as I said above), but if you have to have them well you might want to spend time listening to what they do and don't do.

here's an example

A lot of people who are treating their transformers do this without considering the other parts. Case and point you might help the sound of your transformer on one side of the MU Metal which is commonly used but completely distroy the sound of the capacitors on the other side, or cause strange circuit board vibratory issues. it's not just about trying to cut off the transformer and it's effects, and a lot of times you can go in and listen to a system that just had their transformer treated and say what happened to the stage ceiling? Sometimes you'll notice the soundstage got wider with the transformer treated but the ceiling and floor got squeezed. So you have to, anytime you make a change, Not just go off of what someone is telling you about the technical reasons and do your own listening.

Another thing to be cautious of with MU Metal or any material is how it reacts with the wires and PCB traces. in this hobby you can spend your life fixing one problem to only create another, so I push for taking you time and really studying the sound.

Again Geoff, I know you hate me, but I recommend you be very careful in giving advice on in-room setups, not having one yourself. I keep mentioning it cause I get concern when you make blanket statements and someone might follow what you say and do a bunch of stuff and a year later wonder what the heck screwed up his sound. I know guys out there that can't get MU metal near their system without funky stuff happening, so I don't recommend just talking about something without giving a word as to what can go weird the other way.

On this thread I would like to build a method if you don't mind that will cover the basis and then people can come ask about specifics.

thanks
michael green
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You forgot the most important thing
michael green wrote:

Since Geoff brought it up on this thread I'll cover what I said about transformers on other threads.

Transformers are field generating power plants that should be addressed one way or another. They honestly should be no where near the other parts (depending on size) and if you do not move them a good distance or know how to use the energy they create than building a shield would be the last resort but I always recommend people spend a fair amount of time dealing with each individual transformer as a unique issue. Very rarely is there a one size fits all and anyone who spends time working with electromagnetic fields will tell you that yes, completely surrounding the transformer is one sound, but you can also get some weirdness in some frequency ranges. Best bet is to have a system with as few transformers and inductors as possible (as I said above), but if you have to have them well you might want to spend time listening to what they do and don't do.

here's an example

A lot of people who are treating their transformers do this without considering the other parts. Case and point you might help the sound of your transformer on one side of the MU Metal which is commonly used but completely distroy the sound of the capacitors on the other side, or cause strange circuit board vibratory issues. it's not just about trying to cut off the transformer and it's effects, and a lot of times you can go in and listen to a system that just had their transformer treated and say what happened to the stage ceiling? Sometimes you'll notice the soundstage got wider with the transformer treated but the ceiling and floor got squeezed. So you have to, anytime you make a change, Not just go off of what someone is telling you about the technical reasons and do your own listening.

Another thing to be cautious of with MU Metal or any material is how it reacts with the wires and PCB traces. in this hobby you can spend your life fixing one problem to only create another, so I push for taking you time and really studying the sound.

Again Geoff, I know you hate me, but I recommend you be very careful in giving advice on in-room setups, not having one yourself. I keep mentioning it cause I get concern when you make blanket statements and someone might follow what you say and do a bunch of stuff and a year later wonder what the heck screwed up his sound. I know guys out there that can't get MU metal near their system without funky stuff happening, so I don't recommend just talking about something without giving a word as to what can go weird the other way.

On this thread I would like to build a method if you don't mind that will cover the basis and then people can come ask about specifics.

thanks
michael green
MGA/RoomTune

You totally must have spaced out. You forgot to warn folks not to eat mu metal. Shame on you.

It must really get under your skin, eh? Lol

By the way I don't hate you. But I'm very envious of your hair. :-)

Geoff Kait

Machina Dynamica
We told you it would be fun but we didn't say for who

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low mass

If you have questions on low mass let me know, cause I'm kinda giving the fast version of the method.

So as a recap, everything is meant to be a part of each other. I want to be very clear here cause this will make or break a setup. In our audiophile chain we have had the source, amp, speaker and room as all separates. But this is not really what is happening. If you understand fundamental interaction & physics to the degree that motion is in everything, your home free. If it's still a hang up you might want to try making some changes to your setup and see what happens. There are cases where the system is so over damped that the system will not sound different with changes, but sadly in that case you with hear every recording the same way. You won't be playing the music you'll be playing the system which happens to have music wanting to be free.

Low mass is about letting the music happen. Right away some say "you can't do this it will distort". Distortion happens when you have too much or too little of something. If you use good tuning practices with good tools not only will the system not distort, it will have double the gain of a typical system. I want you to look at this but don't get carried away http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_(physics) . See the part where it says tension? What we found as we were working on tuning is the closser you get to zero mass the better the range in the music. Picture this. Say you take your amp from 50 lbs down to 12, take it even further by moving the transformer out of the way, so now your down to 3 lbs or less. Your signal is now running through a ton less mass adding it's flavor to the signal. If you at that point come up with the standoffs in the corners of the circuit board and down with a tuning rod in the center you have made a transfer distribution system. Gravity will drain off to the corners, and the energy bulk will travel up to the board above (we call it the canopy). You have just turned your amp into a musical instrument. Instead of the vibration being dampened you have built a system of control and power, that will do everything the dampening will do and you will be able to dial in your own vibratory code. You see by coming up and going down you have just wiped out distortion. This device will help you find and tune any part on your circuit board. You don't have to have the standoffs at the edge or the rod in the center, I did that to make it easy to understand. Go here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems look at pictures 2, 10, 18, 31, 41, 60 and you will see this in action. See 60, that's the whole system. Less than 2 lbs and will blow you out of the room.

michael green
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acoustical mechanical

Just as the instrument and the live room in a studio are one, so is the room and speaker in the system. "michael your saying that because your an acoustician", nope I'm an acoustician because I am in the music biz. I see the most important part of the music business as being the artist, the instrument, and the room. Those of you who have average to good systems know what I'm saying. If you don't have the stage and recorded space coming through in your system your in a different hobby. It doesn't make it bad, it's really a different hobby. Those who are soundstage listeners are in a world of their own. I'm not talking about partial instrument images in front of you like at the shows, I'm talking about the recorded space in your room and your in the middle of it. As far as the sound of it, there isn't much I can or anyone can say about it, except to say when your in it you have no idea your even sitting in a room. It's not this inbetween the speaker thing or looking at it from a distance. The presence of that recording wraps around you like you walked into the live room and sat down with the musicians. I'm going to be straight up here so don't get mad. I've listened with about 60 audio reviewers, and heard this maybe 8 times in their systems. I'm not saying they haven't got this, I'm just saying I personally only heard it that many times, maybe. At an audio show I've heard it twice maybe. Sound like I'm being critical doesn't it? Well try not to take it wrong, cause those systems were great, but there's another level. And there's a lot of music from good to great. Ok, before I get boo's those of you starting to tune are beginning to hear a piece of it. I'm not BSing you one little bit you wait till you open that baby up. Your not going to believe it was the same system and as a lot of guys say, "I've had to get use to listening all over again". Hey, don't get on me go to TuneLand and read their stories.

What you have in that room of yours is gold. It's the final step in this thing that lets it all hang out. You can get on me about tuning the room/speaker/recording all you want but the first time you do it your going to crap your shorts. "what in the H just happened" will be what your gonna say. You know how I know that someone has not got this yet? They say "my speaker sounds like" . When you have tuned in the code between your room/speaker/recording you will not hear anything that remotely sounds like a speaker or a piece of gear. You at that point will never disrespect your room or any other again. Someone could place a sock in that room and you would hear it cutting into the stage. Most of the acoustical products out there if you sat in that room, the sound would run to that product or you would hear a dull hole. Nope that room your room is something special. I'm sure that 90% of the people reading this have not unlocked their rooms potential. The question is, do you want to, and if you heard it would you need to? Yep, Catch or someone like him will come up and say who do I think I am, and Geoff we know where he's at, but this doesn't answer the question. The question is, if you could turn your room into your private concert hall would you?

When it comes to the room it's a matter of desire. If someone comes to you spouting off what all the room does in technical terms he's never heard a room. If someone uses a placement Cd neither has he. I'm telling you if you turn your room into an acoustical dream your speakers will talk to you. I've haven't used toe in for years, haven't needed to, my room plays my speakers and my speakers stimulate my room. Do something for me while your reading this, cup your hands behind your ears. Now move your hands away and close away and close. Hear that? It's sound pressure and your room is full of it. It's so thick you can cut it with a knife.

I want you guys to look at something with me. Go to Bill's thread and look at his speakers. See that area between his speakers and the floor? That's one of the biggest music makers in the system. What happens between the speaker and the floor is one of the biggest things in all of audio. It's a music gold mined waiting for you. If you treat this like de-coupling I'm gonna shoot you lol. It's coupling, and one of the most important parts to coupling. A lot of people have bad acoustics not because their acoustics are bad, but because their speakers aren't talking to the room. Let's go back to the fundamental interaction. There is no way to separate your speaker from the room so stop trying. Stop killing the sound of the room and make it sing. Make it sing and tune it in. I have no Earthly idea why you guys aren't using speaker platforms. Bill with his hardwood flooring and stand design may not need them, don't know, but lot of folks have speakers that go right down to the floor and they don't have what Bill's has. They don't have a break between the speaker and the floor. I'm not talking spikes, I'm talking an engineering tuning device between the speaker and the floor. I see all these beautiful speakers and their plopped down on the floor. Some have mable underneath them. I wanta sream. A speaker platform should have come with every speaker made and I have know idea what the industry is waiting on. It's such common sense.

give your eyes a break, I'll be back

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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it's about tone

I want to share something with you guys. I was doing a recording in Nashville and in this studio there was a bunch of guitar amps, all pretty new, some twins, and this one amp that had a single 15" I'm pretty sure. It was an old VOX. So the guys come in and hook up and start playing and evry thing sounded ok, until the vox guy started to play. There were tones that came out of that baby that made you wanta cry. It was so sweet and so tight sounding at the same time. I mean this speaker did everything. During the break I went around and strumed the same guitar plugging into each amp. Every amp in there sounded different but all missing that magic till I came back to that Vox. When I put my hand on the other speaker/amps they vibrated but when I got to the Vox, it more than vibrated, it was alive.

Who in this industry scared people into doing the knuckle test? This whole concept is so far away for music reproduction it freaks me out. "well it's not a guitar amp", your right. It's a dead lifeless box forcing that driver to do all the work. "well the driver is a piston...." bla bla bla. Get your butt in the car and go to the music store and put your hand on a guitar amp. Audiophile alert, vibration is not distortion! This is the biggest myth in the land, and audiophile designers who live by this have all but killed the industry. I almost can't comprehend how an industry can set a loudspeaker next to a musical instrument and not get it. This one isn't just high end audio. This is high end audio and studios who have missed this boat. I was in this hobby about 2 seconds and I was designing my own speakers in my mind. Lets not even talk tuning for a minute. Did you guys not hear the change in speakers when they went from musical to dead. It was so obvious to me that I wanted to wear ear plugs. OK, rant over. You know what we did with the circuit board a while back by putting tension on both sides. There's the answer to speaker design, send me the check. The difference in sound between a speaker with outward force and one with outward and inward force is not even in the same ball park. If you give the speaker tone and you have a tuning bolt on the outside you can go about anywhere you want. Speakers should have always been built like musical instruments and the guy who said they would make distortion should have been sent to audio prison, or at least to the music store and forced to listen to musical instruments.

This speaker myth blows my mind. I mean I dig that someone is going to have to learn how to use them a little but hey, this is the same hobby that brought us turntables.

If you can get your mind around thinking of your system as a tone maker, and I know how hard that is for engineers sometimes, but take a good hard look at instruments and try to see if there is really any difference, and if you can let go of that part and explore your going to find yourself listening to sometime that you'll be surprised with. Let me give a quick example, and I'm not saying this is the best speaker in the world. Look at the Dayton Audio 652. It vibrates like no ones biz yet is getting killer reviews and has for a while. Put tuning bars inside them and a bolt on the outside and you have a little monster. Get a pair, cost next to nothing and play with it like you would finishing an instrument and do the tuning bar/ bolt thing and you have a fairly Ok little music maker. You do it well and your going to shock some serious audiophiles. It's one of painless experiments that might change the way you look at audio.

michael green
MGA/Roomtune

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Nice write up

Michael,

Nice write even with the interruptions. Geez a man can't get a word in edgewise around here.

A nice unifying and simple method is always the best.

I know some people are wondering, how am I ever going to incorporate these ideas in my setup.

You can start with opening up a component and loosening some screws on your circuit boards and what effect this might have in your system. If you find a change you like ... you are on your way .. You don't have to use all the ideas and can stay in your comfort zone.

Most tuners start out with traditional systems and tune them. Some end up with hybrid systems of existing components or speakers as lifestyle systems. Others ditch the old hardware after getting as far as they can and find inexpensive low mass playback and amplification components that tune well and either use tuneable speakers or their originals. This can still be in the lifestyle category. Even others go extreme and do a complete disassembly of components. Kinda cool.

Took me a while to wrap my head around tuning when I first investigated it, but, now all I see is wide open, free flowing signal. I doubt I will ever go the disassembly route since I don't have the space for it, but, maybe once one of the bedrooms open up .. who knows .. hurry up with the college, will ya kids and get jobs.

I started out using my existing tube amp, belt transport and tubed dac. I got as far as I could and then went the inexpensive receiver, CD player and 22 gauge wiring. I stayed with my existing monitor speakers and sub for now. The cost of those components were less than I have paid for an output tube in the past.

I won't go into detail on the differences between my old system and a tuned system but will say that music that used to sit on the shelf is now in listening rotation.

I know this all sounds like the big sell .. Take it for what it is .. The experience of one of many people who tune where each and everyone found a better way to enjoy their music.

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Mutt and Jeff

You guys can pretend there is no such thing as effective damping or effective isolation until you're blue in the face. Don't you realize how childish that is? This is the whole problem with Stove Piping, you stay down on the basement working on your little project for thirty years and when you come up from the basement after thirty years to announce to the world, EUREKA, I FOUND IT!!, you just might find you've only found a partial solution, you've only found a local maximum, and that you completely overlooked some very important things. You can't just sweep physics under the carpet because it's inconvenient. You can't hide your head in the sand. This is what happens when software types and English majors try to corner the market on physics. And and old retired phd types that can't remember what they took in school. What this whole tuning enterprise is beginning to sound like is nothing more than some sort of physics revisionist sect. The New Physics for the sonically impaired. Scientology for English majors. ;-)

What the Tunees ignore: transformer magnetic fields, seismic vibration, transformer vibration, scattered laser light both visible and invisible, the transparency of the clear CD layer, the induced magnetic field in wires, the directionality of wires and fuses, mind matter interaction, the tremendous sound pressure levels in the top and bottom room corners, the sound pressure peaks in the 3 dimensional space of the room, magnetic fields associated with the CD and with cabling, electric static fields associated with CD and cabling. Have I forgotten anything? Oh, yeah, and the sea of RFI/EMI that's all around not to mention that generated by semiconductor chips and other devices! Wow, talk about have blinders on!

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Rip van Winkles of the forum: wake up and smell the coffee!!

I will be standing by for a good whacking. Please, not in the face!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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thanks Toledo

Thanks Toledo

It is indeed interesting to be doing something constructive in the middle of what the audiophile world has become. But I believe the industry can be restored to the hobby of listening and more of a mature approach to things. There is a time to be funny and fooling around but there's also a time to be all about the music. I think this and other threads though can point out the two sides fairly clear. On one side you have things like the May and Geoff thread and their 7 pages of no method, and on this thread you have one page of getting straight to the music. As they say, that's life. Geoff said the other day "it's just a hobby". I would have to disagree, it's a lifestyle. One that some treat like a joke, or one that can be serious about the music. At the end of the day it's about someone sitting in the fulfillment of their passion. If their passion is making jokes at the hobby, or flaming others as they express their path to better sound that will be shown. If their passion of music is what is front and center that will be seen as well. As much as I think Stereophile should be friendly I can't imagine they enjoy being the host for people making a joke out of one of the most prestigious lifestyles there is.

michael green
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taking a look at

Thought some might want to take a look at the "method of tuning" in action.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t59-top-tuning-method-of-tuning

There's a lot more info on TuneLand about the subject and we invite you to take part. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

There are many parts to this hobby that are full of fun and years of enjoyment. We hope that we have presented a choice for the person who may want to go a little further than plug & play can explore. Our next step of course will be the designing of electronics the tuning way, but there are a lot of gems out there for you to tune and find their magic. Some might deliver what you want and need, but if not it's good to know that the hobby doesn't stop there. The spirit of this hobby started with painting that picture of the recreation of the music artist in your home, and it's up to you to say "I'm done now bring on the music". Everyone in this biz offers a part and piece of this, and we are happy to share our part.

please feel free to ask questions, and visit TuneLand

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Point of reference

Geoff,

We have discussed a lot of the things you mention .. I wish there was a way to summarize all the info presented in all the discussions we have had over the last few months..

The beauty of tuning is anything you do in a tweak approach can, if desired, be applied to a tuned system. If one finds a need for parts of your approach such as rfi/emi or cd tweaks it can be done. The best of both worlds if one desires and it makes an overall discernible improvement.. Tuning addresses a lot of these issues at the source using simpler components. Yes, it doesn't help the guy with existing components, but maybe the industry will wise up and designers will change their ways. Part of tuning agenda is to highlight these issues and show there is a better way.

Imagine in a few years as other designers (not MGA components in the works) address these issues and components are created that have variable tension and other tuning approaches built in. Marketers are always looking for new break out products .. Be interesting to see how capitalism plays out and what the industry will look like.

Are you really qualified to discuss accoustics, at this point. Tuning doesn't address corner loading? It does but not in a wholesale dampening approach.

You embrace Morphic resonance, mind matter interaction, photos in the freezer, writing Xs, teleport tweaks and other fringe ideas yet cannot see the need to simplify the signal chain?

I always love when an argument that stipulates the other guy has blinders on could easily be applied to you.

Cute horse, by the way. Do you have a library of these pics on hand and scour the web for material to be used for just the right moment. Why don't you use that spare time to really look into tuning. You might like some of the ideas and incorporate them into your system.

Why don't you spend a couple hundred, buy the receiver and player and cabling some of us use and try some stuff out. I can't vouch for the headphone section on the receiver, but, you can hopefully get creative and figure something out. You see, we have been where you are and have a point of reference. I think it's time for you to get a point of reference to our approach.

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fields & shields & stability

Hi Geoff

I'm sorry you missed us addressing these topics on the forum so we should include them on this thread so people don't need to go searching. People are welcome to visit http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and find these topics either on the techno-zone or the TuneLand archives.

first the stability question

We have had to do studies on this topic often, basically this is a studied of the frequencies that are below the normal listening range 20 hz and down and how they affect the sound of the audio system. There are two issues here. One is what you gain by treating these and the other is what you loose. I'm going to cut to the audiophile part of this quickly then I can come back as needed. In the studio world we call these floating systems. Basically they are floors, subfloors and earth systems designed to have the pressure adjusted so that the low frequencies from the Earth are marginalized in the peeks and also shielding in the rest of the structure itself. For the audiophile who has his system sitting in a typical room the problem is this. To deal with this issue even somewhat close to an effective way you need to do a layered building to ground setup, and almost all housing does not have this technology built into them as would a modern commercial building requires. I've called the Music Department at SUNY to forward me (when they get a chance) my building blueprints of their music wing that I designed so that I may show you this in practice and not just talk. When you start getting into these issues I don't go along with the quick audiophile fixes nor do I think they even truly address the issue. What I see are people who look up a science and attach their products and names to something that is far bigger than the products which make differences but might not really be dealing with the big science of the Earth. They make for a good compulsive story, but when dealing with something as big as Schumann Resonances you need to look past a simple audiophile tweak to address this.

fields & shields

It's a little hard to put together what Geoff is saying as he makes statements about what others over look but I believe part of this is Schumann Resonances, so lets take a look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schumann_resonances

This is something we also study as part of the training at the builders association in high tech research. There are always new formulas and ideas on how best to work with these sciences, however I've looked at Geoff's web and product line and haven't made the connection of exactly how his products deal with these issues. I was hoping he would have explained this on his thread but didn't see it.

This particular topic is a long one and if Geoff or others want to start a thread on this I will probably jump in, but as far as tuning goes on this issue I'm not sure the audiophile is going to want to go to the expense of tweating their home to accommodate the tweaking of Schumann Resonances in a meaningful way. That being said, the tuning of electromagnetic fields and vibratory energies is something we take extremely serious and have been a part of designing and building field control systems on both small and larger scale. However with all the work we have done on this topic, the biggest tweak we have found to address this is moving from a multiple transformer and inductor system to one that using as few as possible. I for example only use one medium and one small transformer in my system. Because of this and removing much of the metal in my amp and my CD player having no metal except the simplistic trace and parts, my fields have blended nicely with the environment.

The tuning method has opened many eyes and ears to what a system is and can do looking past the marketing of the high end. As Toledo and many have discovered the audio system is more than boxes and marketing. The audio system is about the simplicity of physics. Creating problems for the signal path was the worst thing that this industry did for the hobby. However I don't really think they knew they were doing this. We look at high end as being exotic for sure, but not exotic with the facade of battle ships over the function of sound. Exotic to us is allowing the signal to work in an environment that promotes the energy and not attempting to force it into a submissive hold.

My take on physics is having things in a working order.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Shake it, don't break it!
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

We have discussed a lot of the things you mention .. I wish there was a way to summarize all the info presented in all the discussions we have had over the last few months..

The beauty of tuning is anything you do in a tweak approach can, if desired, be applied to a tuned system. If one finds a need for parts of your approach such as rfi/emi or cd tweaks it can be done. The best of both worlds if one desires and it makes an overall discernible improvement.. Tuning addresses a lot of these issues at the source using simpler components. Yes, it doesn't help the guy with existing components, but maybe the industry will wise up and designers will change their ways. Part of tuning agenda is to highlight these issues and show there is a better way.

Imagine in a few years as other designers (not MGA components in the works) address these issues and components are created that have variable tension and other tuning approaches built in. Marketers are always looking for new break out products .. Be interesting to see how capitalism plays out and what the industry will look like.

Are you really qualified to discuss accoustics, at this point. Tuning doesn't address corner loading? It does but not in a wholesale dampening approach.

You embrace Morphic resonance, mind matter interaction, photos in the freezer, writing Xs, teleport tweaks and other fringe ideas yet cannot see the need to simplify the signal chain?

I always love when an argument that stipulates the other guy has blinders on could easily be applied to you.

Cute horse, by the way. Do you have a library of these pics on hand and scour the web for material to be used for just the right moment. Why don't you use that spare time to really look into tuning. You might like some of the ideas and incorporate them into your system.

Why don't you spend a couple hundred, buy the receiver and player and cabling some of us use and try some stuff out. I can't vouch for the headphone section on the receiver, but, you can hopefully get creative and figure something out. You see, we have been where you are and have a point of reference. I think it's time for you to get a point of reference to our approach.

Thinly veiled shill job by the senior shill. The Mutt and Jeff Show rolls on. :-). Love the tuning jibber jabber...

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Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Entertainment Tonight!

Geoff, you are turning into the Fox channel.

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Twist and Shout

Geoff,

Yup .. an enthusiastic cheerleader, that's me ... thanks for noticing ... although your gonna get me in a lot of trouble if my wife sees this page while I post .. honest hun its an audio blog.

So is this how you wish to communicate from here on .. have you run out of ideas to twist and spin (other than the insults, of course.)

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the recording itself

This is another part of the hobby that can be confusing to the listener who reaches a certain level of performance. Meaning the casual music lover who has a basic system sitting around playing music without caring about all the things the audiophile does listens to the music to enjoy the songs without thinking of soundstage. As soon as a listener gets into the soundstage it goes from casual to the hobby of imaging. It doesn't take too long from this point to start hearing differences in the recordings. One of the first is volume. There is no gain standard in the idustry. All of the recordings have been made with their own sense of right. Next, tone. Every studio and mastering house adjust the tone to their particular room and conditions, again no standard. Moving on, stage size. There is no standard of how the recording equipment itself produces the sound or size of the sound. Every model of mixer sounds different, much like the audiophile finds every amp does. This is something that is rarely talked about but is a huge factor. Same with all the equipment in the recording stage, they all sound different. Mastering equipment is the same way. The other part to stage is the size of the recorded space. All studios have a different sizes to the live rooms. This can range from a tiny booth to a football field. One recording may have a ceiling height of 8 feet and the next 25. One could go 6 feet deep, and the other 40. Halos of the individual instruments can range greatly.

When all these variables are stored on a recording, they are unique to themselves and depend on the playback system, comprised of electrical, mechanical and acoustical technologies to restore them, but the recording itself has all these variables incoded on them. If a recording is indeed 40' wide this is how it should playback, and if all three parts are in-tune it will.

It's important for the audiophile to digest this info, because this is the reality of the hobby. Playing back the real space and real size is the absolute sound, and if the recording is 40 X 40 X 25 and a system is playing it 12 X 8 X 8, in just this one variable alone, this is how far off a system is. It doesn't matter how resolved you think your sound is, if you are not playing the real space you are only producing part of the music.

You've heard the expression "never heard that before, first time I heard that on this recording" when someone is hearing something new on a recording? Well the fact is, if your not matching the real space that's how much info you are missing. The audiophile world has created a false size to fit the hobby in, and has been spending their time making that size resolute instead of going after the rest of the info. The reality is if you get the real space to play all of the other parts, tone, focus, dynamics, all the parts that went into this unique set of vibratory values will show themselves.

It's great that there is "A" technology that has reached this level for the high end audio listener, but it is not "the" technology the will bring home The Absolute Sound". Harry has said this himself in an interview I have posted on TuneLand, and other leaders have said that this hobby has reached that 10% level and stalled.

Take some time if you wish to read my other articles on here concerning Build vs Sound and one big musical instrument. The method of tuning for those who wish to follow will lead you to the rest of the music. It's a method that ties the speakers to the room and this tied to the amp, and working with the source. A method that removes the distortion caused by the transformers.

The method of tuning mates the recorded info to the acoustical, mechanical and electrical components by the same technology that put musical and acoustical together since the beginning of music itself. Those who explore will find that by this method the system itself is in reality a musical instrument. No doubt the engineer brains will battle this and may be the last to convert, but for those who have an open enough mind you can get to the proof of this quickly and then start to build a new hobby for yourselves. A hobby that will answer your audio questions.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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making the jump

The only way to make the jump from the tiny stage to real space, size and sound is to "do", and here's the good news, it cost almost nothing to get started. If you want to leave your system the way it is as a reference and you have an extra bedroom we can get you up to comparison speed in no time and you can see for yourself. If you are just getting started in the hobby, you can jump right in and by-pass the long road of going in a big circle to come back to this point. What I would do for everyone who is questioning is this possible or real is go to TuneLand and read the threads where people are doing this. There you can see where they started and where they are at now. I know several of you have registered on TuneLand and a few have posted, and I also know that you have not been exposed to something so radical and it seem impossible for high end audio to be out done by low fi in your thinking. Trust me your not alone. I and everyone who has taken this step have gone through the same thing. Here's a tip though to get your mind through this. Stop looking at the money as your point of reference, and start looking at sound practically. What is sound and the three parts to audio? Set your focus on the acoustical mechanical and electrical and realize that the designers who paved the way to this point in the high end who weren't focused on these three may have made things that weren't neccessary. What I found and you will too, is this industry way over built what was needed to put the 3 parts together because they were specialist in one or two of the parts and it takes all three to make it happen. I'll give you the biggest of examples. The industry as a whole still has no idea how to make a room into the propper and varible listening environment. They haven't got to the point where they understand that the room is a natural amplifier, and needs to be. The room is a component, the biggest component. You hear that said but no one has taken the time to really spell that out. They talk room treatment in a way that removes the involvement of the room instead of turning that space into what it is suppose to be, a music reproducer. This one part of the hobby alone will change the face of the industry. Acousticians have turned this into a math of removal instead of a science of reproducing. Everything in the playback part this hobby needs to be about playback. No one can change the fact that you may have a bad sounding wall, floor or ceiling but turning any one of these into a dampener is against the grain when it comes to restoring the music. You are not going to kill your way to bringing something to life. Ain't gonna happen and you can spend the rest of your live arguing, it's not going to bring you one step closer to the music your trying to reproduce. I can get into how to correct this thinking, but want to make some points first.

Look again at what I said about fields. Think about it. Once you start creating problems you have to start creating solutions. This industry has been incredible about creating solutions, and I mean that with all do respect, I really do, some smart cookies out there, but why is the industry spending time and money on solutions for problems? Playback is about three things folks. Playback is about reproducing the info from balancing these three parts. Not trying to make one replace the others, and not complicating a fairly simple process. TRANSFORMERS AND INDUCTORS MAKE POWERED FIELDS THAT DISTORT THE AUDIO SIGNAL! Wow, I just yeld. I could have smacked you in the face but you weren't here :) Let me share something about the funamentals of designing. Don't make something that has to be fixed. The high end audio industry was doing so good till it started making problems then started to fix them "calling it designing" instead of saying "we have a problem Houston". Guys sat there at their tech benches and started creating a new form of the hobby without ever taking the time to incorporate the "audio trilogy". I know this first hand cause I was there. Guys were designing stuff without having a solid plan on acoustics and the mechanics. They created thousands of locked in flavors is what they did, and then everyone started to debate what flavor was the flavor of the month, and the industry became infatuated with this instead of moving to a level of matching the recording to the reproduction process that had yet to be suitable. Things became more an more complicated and harder and harder to fix, adding even more to the individual sound of a component. Instead of making systems able to adapt to the music, they made systems that started playing less and created once again theories to make this fit. Security in the 12'x6'x8' instead of going after the real space. Everything became about hearing this smart part very clear instead of opening up the whole soundstage.

One of the first steps in the method of tuning is getting to the point where you have a soundstage that is closer to the recorded size, and this is easier done with less than more. As I said earlier you can go the slow route or do a couple of things that make you more secure in speeding things up so you can get to the music instead of music tradeoffs. And yes, I know this makes some of you mad and defencive, but this is something that doesn't need to be, and I am a listener just like you with a huge passion to get more instead of focusing on less.

michael green
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Michael, your point on record production is right on target

I can recognize the sound of FIM, Chesky, MoFi, ECM, Sheffield and a few others even on unfamiliar systems. Indeed there is no standard (not that one couldn't be established) but then I don't mind it: I think mixing & mastering is part of the creative process. Also, I don't mind if the same record sounds different on two home systems: after all, it's the owner's right to adjust the sound to his own preferences.
However, when a ECM record sounds the same as a VTL record it means there is something very wrong with the system.

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Yep

Right on the money! It's like a whole new sub-chapter to the hobby. After my hundredth system (nice to have stores to play in), I said something isn't right here. All these different recordings, and I have to listen to them on "one sound", or I have to have 2,3,4,5 systems to find which does what within which? There's nothing like the bell going off when you start classifying one system my rock one, and one my jazz one, and one my classical one, and on it went. No that to me said there's a problem here. I want to be able to play all of it on one system. When I started to open this door up by going simple and tuning I said "holy crap". Didn't take long to explore either. The recordings certainly weren't the hold up, they were more than willing to jump in size and accuracy. Hearing ECM or VTL or any other label when going to twice or more the size is a completely different view of the recording. Things that sounded tonally squeezed before, opened up into their own space which made a ton more sense. Labels that I personally wasn't so crazy about before, became some of my favorite, and most importantly music that hit the shelf were able to be completely rediscovered. I was no longer using my system as the judge. I started using my systems as the tools. They were no longer going to tell me what things sounded like, the music was.

Didn't take very long to find out that space was the most important part of the recording and the closer this space got to the actual size things would clean up before my eyes. An example for Floyd fans. I never knew that on "wish you were here" "welcome to the machine" that the synth started 20 or so feet behind the head and came rushing up to the front of the stage, a movement of about 30 feet back to front in movement. Or on "selling england by the pound" genesis the lawnmower runs right over you. Yep, my first open ears was to find that "ROCK" smokes with huge stages front to back side to side and up and down. In fact it wasn't Jazz and Classical at all that opened my ears to huge staging but the electronic recordings, and very well in tonal balance. This was a complete departure from what high end audio was preaching. Then I put on Classical, and all I can say is you don't have to imagine the hall, and it isn't this thing that fits inbetween the speakers with change to spare. Going from frontal to 360 with classical made me sit there and cry. I could put on my Atlanta Symphony and go right inside the hall, like no high end audio system I ever had or ever heard at any show or reviewers place even came close to. By this time it wasn't just me but some really great listeners would invite me over to their place after going simple, they blew my mind. Some of these guys are classical monsters and what they did to the stage was nuts! People clearly clapping, sneezing behind me and the flutes ringing off the back of the hall. I would say unbelievable but the fact was it was extremely believable.

Here's the best part. Any distortion disappears. Once it's the music and not the system there's a purity that transends. And this I've only heard with size. The real space comes to life and there's no question about the absolute sound. In fact it probably souldn't be call the absolute sound but the absolute space.

I'm all for personal taste, but when a guy (I know hundreds) hears real space real size there's a change that happens to them. Ask Toledo, shoot ask anyone on TuneLand or anyone who has made this move. I know of a few who could not wrap themselves around it, but they were tortured audio souls to begin with I would suppose. Tuning is like the most natural music tech there is, only men could make it into something more complexed than what it needs to be.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Natural ease

One of my favorite moments is when you play a very well known album for the first time on a tuned system.

You sit there and ponder, I thought I knew this album.

I remember when I first heard Neil Young Harvest Moon and Traffic Barleycorn after starting to tune. I purposely only used a few recordings when I started out and learning the ropes (and will forever be learning) so I could hear the changes as I made them and to let the system settle around each change.

My notes on this were -

"
These albums are presented full and rich from front to back, with uncanny, effortless, natural ease of detail. The harmonics, reverberance, echo and dynamics of Harvest are incredible. The guitar thumps and layered vocals are way cool. On War of Man the female vocals that start on back left stage are huge and really take you by surprise.
"

It is hard to put this to words, but, I find the "uncanny, effortless, natural ease of detail" is what I am still amazed by. There is nothing forced or pinched or detailed for the sake of detail .. it is just there.

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Nice to see you coming around

Michael wrote,

"Not trying to make one replace the others, and not complicating a fairly simple process. TRANSFORMERS AND INDUCTORS MAKE POWERED FIELDS THAT DISTORT THE AUDIO SIGNAL! Wow, I just yeld. I could have smacked you in the face but you weren't here :) Let me share something about the funamentals of designing. Don't make something that has to be fixed. The high end audio industry was doing so good till it started making problems then started to fix them "calling it designing" instead of saying "we have a problem Houston"."

Glad to see you are starting to see things my way, Yes, the transformers are a necessary evil, unless you go output transformer-less. Ditto inductors, for the same reason - I.e., the induced magnetic field. One thing you don't mention and I guess I'll have to be the one to bring it up - the wires themselves are a BIG PROBLEM!! The wires and cables and Power Cords all produce the magnetic field, same as the transformers. Maybe the Tunees can put their heads together and figure out a way to build stereo stuff without wires and without power cords and interconnects. That would be cool! While they are having a pow wow on what to do about wires and cables maybe they can set aside some time to discuss what to do with wire directionality. Wire directionality came to the attention of audiophiles (well, maybe not ALL audiophiles) about ten years ago when aftermarket fuses hit the market with funny little arrows on them showing the direction of current flow. Actually, interconnects, some interconnects, anyway, had directional arrows way before the aftermarket fuses showed up. But here's the problem: even though many audiophiles recognize the wisdom of directional fuses and even directional wire, the industry has not exactly embraced the concept. If they had we would be blessed with transformers constructed with wire wrapped in the correct direction, capacitors with wire in the correct direction, all internal wire, yup, now you're catching on, IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION and all internal speaker wiring in the correct direction. Next up, why the AC power itself is bad for the sound and if you're nice, why the room itself is bad for the sound. No I'm not talking about room acoustics, you silly goose, I'm taking about something much more mysterious and insidious. Just the ticket for anyone who looked at my web site and wondered what the heck are those little blue and green dots, the Blue Meanies and Green Meanie, for all walls and the ceiling?

Cheers

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynmica

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effortless

Oh man, did you ever hit it! When that recording goes "effortless". I honestly don't know how someone can listen without this happening. It would drive me crazy listening to an up tight system setup and not be able to do anything about it. hearing piano keys hit with impact, yet I want a little more halo cushion, and not able to go there is a listening world I can't live in. Call me spoiled call me a snob, I don't care, there is nothing like that baby coming to life, and I can't live without having the ability to make it happen.

My thought is, how long will it take for this industry to go from fixed to tuned? It's not that many moves in designing but there needs to be that desire to take the step. I do think though by you coming here, it helps those who are wondering feel more at ease. I picture in my mind that after reading about tuning and the possibilities that someone puts on a piece of music and it sounding hard to them, but they've read this and at least stops to think a minute, "is it possible". Is it possible that I as a listener can smooth out those highs and turn this piece of music from hard and cramped into open and "effortless"?

All about doing, and maybe a little help from others who have done. thanks for being here toledo man!

michael green
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wires & cables

Thanks Geoff, since tuning deals with everything from the beginning to the end of the audio chain I'll be covering each part. If people want to get a head start visit TuneLand http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and they can take a look at the cable and the threads on cable, including the listeners threads. We spend a ton of time with this in tuning. Visitors will probably want to take a peek at some of the archives as well. When a listener starts tuning cables there are some pretty cool tricks that we talk about, so this will be fun to see people here trying it too.

I have to go to a listening session but will be back to check in later. I want to thank readers for visiting this thread and hopefully it will results in a lot of fun. Also keep those emails coming, it's great to see the phile getting into tuning.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Geoff, I do believe in cable directionaliity

For some of them the reason is obvious: the shield is connected to one end only, and that end should be plugged in the device with lower impedance (i.e. the source, since 99% of gear works as voltage sources).

But can you explain wire directionality in speaker cable? I heard it myself so I don't doubt it but, except for some explanations regarding the effect of drawing direction on the shape of crystals I couldn't find other acceptable reasons (yes, funny reasons abound but then funny reasons can explain anything).

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cables and fuses

Tunees, as folks are seeing, believe in not creating the problem in the first place. People talk about doing things like playing with fuses, and ask us what we think. Our answer is sure fuses sound different from each other, but we don't like the sound of fuses at all and just like with inductors and transformers use as few as possible. As far as fuses I use one in my main system.

Cables are a simple one. If you have to use a big complicated cable, you should be asking yourself why? This again is one of those over-built issues. Most tunees don't have to worry about cables and cable directions because the cables are designed to work with the signal not against it. The goal should be to design a wire so simple that the same charge build ups that happen in barrels and thicker jackets aren't happening with the low mass cable and wire. Cryo cables and wire are more directional than heat treated. We do not cryo, instead we heat treat and do a vibratory treatment to the cable that breaks the seal between the jacket and copper. This allows the fields to build more uniform and makes the cable easier to tune. Our cables can be reset for direction. The more complicated the cable the more directional they are. Here's the picasso and bare essense http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t73-mga-cable-accessories . Our new Cable Grounds are rolling off the production line next week (we hope). The cable ground and Bare Essense Speaker Cables are built to tune as the cables make their way from the amp to the speakers. Of course the cable grounds are adjustable.

michael green
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Directionality
iosiP wrote:

For some of them the reason is obvious: the shield is connected to one end only, and that end should be plugged in the device with lower impedance (i.e. the source, since 99% of gear works as voltage sources).

But can you explain wire directionality in speaker cable? I heard it myself so I don't doubt it but, except for some explanations regarding the effect of drawing direction on the shape of crystals I couldn't find other acceptable reasons (yes, funny reasons abound but then funny reasons can explain anything).

I am not referring to any issue with the shield, since unshielded cables and fuses exhibit directionality. If an interconnect had a shield connected at one end and was not marked for directionality I would still try it both ways to see which sounded better. As you say the explanation most often mentioned is the crystal structure is biased in one direction during the final drawing through the die. Are the crystals on the surface of the wire bent over like porcupine quills? And does the signal prefer moving in the "smoother direction?" Amorphous materials like carbon do not exhibit directionality. At least I don't think they do.

This sounds like a job for your electron microscope dude.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Directionality is irreversible
michael green wrote:

Tunees, as folks are seeing, believe in not creating the problem in the first place. People talk about doing things like playing with fuses, and ask us what we think. Our answer is sure fuses sound different from each other, but we don't like the sound of fuses at all and just like with inductors and transformers use as few as possible. As far as fuses I use one in my main system.

Cables are a simple one. If you have to use a big complicated cable, you should be asking yourself why? This again is one of those over-built issues. Most tunees don't have to worry about cables and cable directions because the cables are designed to work with the signal not against it. The goal should be to design a wire so simple that the same charge build ups that happen in barrels and thicker jackets aren't happening with the low mass cable and wire. Cryo cables and wire are more directional than heat treated. We do not cryo, instead we heat treat and do a vibratory treatment to the cable that breaks the seal between the jacket and copper. This allows the fields to build more uniform and makes the cable easier to tune. Our cables can be reset for direction. The more complicated the cable the more directional they are. Here's the picasso and bare essense http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t73-mga-cable-accessories . Our new Cable Grounds are rolling off the production line next week (we hope). The cable ground and Bare Essense Speaker Cables are built to tune as the cables make their way from the amp to the speakers. Of course the cable grounds are adjustable.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

The issue is not that fuses sound different from one another. It's that any single fuse sounds different in one direction than the other direction. AND the fuse will sound BETTER in one direction than the other. Even cheap stock fuses that have been in the system for twenty years! Unfortunately directionality in wires and cables is irreversible, like the directionality in fuses. It was once thought that no matter which direction a fuse or cable was inserted into the system that eventually it would break in properly, thus directionality was reversible. But today we know that is not true and that wire directionality is not reversible since the crystal structure is what it is. But this is not rocket science. All one need to do is try the fuse or cable both ways and pick the direction that sounds better. Geez, you guys are the ones claiming all this listening ability. Prove it! But getting back to my original comments regarding wire directionality, the directionality problem is HUGE! Hel-Loo! The directionality issue extends to all cables, cords and all wiring, in everything! In transformers, inductors, capacitors, resistors, internal wiring in components and speakers, CONNECTORS, etc. How do Tunees deal with them apples?

And if you are bypassing fuses in an attempt to get around the problem that is a rather unsafe solution, no?

For those new to the directionality game HiFi Tuning has published data sheets on their web site that show the differences in voltage drop and resistance for both directions of a number of fuses including cryo'd fuses.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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"We spend a ton of time"
michael green wrote:

Thanks Geoff, since tuning deals with everything from the beginning to the end of the audio chain I'll be covering each part. If people want to get a head start visit TuneLand http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and they can take a look at the cable and the threads on cable, including the listeners threads. We spend a ton of time with this in tuning. Visitors will probably want to take a peek at some of the archives as well. When a listener starts tuning cables there are some pretty cool tricks that we talk about, so this will be fun to see people here trying it too.

I have to go to a listening session but will be back to check in later. I want to thank readers for visiting this thread and hopefully it will results in a lot of fun. Also keep those emails coming, it's great to see the phile getting into tuning.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I'm sure you do spend a ton of time on wire and cables but I guess I'm a little confused. What do you do about wire directionality? If anything.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Wheres the method

Geoff,

To these eyes it appears you are trying to steer this thread into a discussion of tweaks and your products instead of a unifying method of how you use them.

I have directed my response on directionality of transformer wiring, caps and resistors to your Geoff and May webpages thread.

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How odd
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

To these eyes it appears you are trying to steer this thread into a discussion of tweaks and your products instead of a unifying method of how you use them.

I have directed my response on directionality of transformer wiring, caps and resistors to your Geoff and May webpages thread.

Wire directionality is something you guys ignore I take it? I was only trying to point out wire directionality is an issue, dunno why you think I'm pushing it as a tweak. Well, actually I do understand. ;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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direction

Hi Geoff

If you look at my above post I mention nothing about the direction of fuses, or bypassing. I don't see the reason why anyone would want to bother changing the direction unless they were blowing them or trying to fix a prexisting problem in their system. Most fuses after being made are virgins so you get a clean slate as to burning them in. Our ideas are simple ones, if there is a problem get rid of it don't throw fix it's all over the system. We're not trying to repair a dam, we're designing one that doesn't have a problem to begin with. Another tip on fuse shifting, I don't recommend this is done more than a couple of times at the most because you will do damage to the material of the fuse itself from a sound perspective. Once a fuse is set you don't really want to tamper with it. Btw those who do play this game need to keep in mind the re-settling of anything electrical. A/B's are fun games for those who want to play them but even on a simple system it takes days for a cable or fuse change to settle. If your doing quick A/B changes this will only tell you the reaction of the fundamentals of the notes and not the harmonic structures settled. Also I'm not down on any fuse, it's up to the listener, each company has a different sound, and to be honest each fuse has a slightly different sound as do all electronic parts. I personally lean toward a fully range but to each their own as they get familar with the sounds they like. One thing to look at though if your changing the type of material of a fuse you might find that you need to also change the fuse clips and surrounding connectors leads or associated wires. We have found that it can become a long redoing process. One that a person might just want to deal with through the tuning of instead of always having to get out their solder or flipping things around.

on cables

Why would someone care to change the direction of their cable Geoff? Tunees are about getting to the music and a huge part to this is getting a system to a place where the parts and pieces settle. I'm sure you know this, but for those who don't. After making something as simple as a cable change it takes at least 7 days (depending on where this is done in the world) for that cable to settle back into the system, that's after a cable is burnt in. This is covered again on TuneLand.

If a person does move though and doesn't have their Picasso or Bare Essense going the same way I will walk them through a reset. If you look at these cables you will see that they are copper runing through our jacket. If for some reason the direction is turned around then I give instructions on heating the wire back up and cracking the seal between the jacket and copper, or they can send it to me and I'll do it for them.

Another thing. We don't recommend burnin CD's, but instead a wide range of music selections over the first few weeks. Important to develop harmonics structures.

Audio is really about developing a common sense approach. Don't have more parts than you need and don't do things that cut away at the developement of the signals flow. For example be careful when doing things like fuse switching cause your not only redirecting the path for the fuse but the entire chain. Your changing the current and any time you do this the parts have to adapt to the new flow. Also be careful when you listen. All of your parts live to open up and that means the sound relaxes. When you make an electronic flow change your upsetting that and things many times sound tighter and more clear, but keep in mind that this in time is going to settle and the sound will only do as good as the flow of energy itself. If you keep swapping and switching you could easily end up with a system that is in constant reaction instead of settling into a nice groove.

This again comes back to tuning. Much more healthy to have a system designed for vibratory change and settle, than one you put through the shock of electronic redirection. Systems long term are not that crazy about, one carrying extra loads and two swimming up stream. Keep in mind that all of these things are about fixed jumping vs variable tuning, and the more you do these tweaks hopefully the lights will turn on that this is all about tuning the energy and once you get past the tweaks and fix it's there's a big world waiting for you to explore.

note to Geoff, I know your hoping to snag on something that we haven't covered but there's really no need inless it makes you happy :)

The whole reason for a method of tuning is to explore every inch of the audio chain, not just a fix that makes a difference as all do but the serious study of the flow of energy and how to make it variable. As we brought up on your thread is all about doing, not just in an A/B audiophile type of thing, but a true listening study over time and with many conditions. Trust me if you spark on something we haven't studied we'll be the first to give credit.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Harold Cooper on Tuning

I have the honor of having Harold Cooper here for the week. It has already been a blast listening, and we're just getting started.

I wanted to put this quote from Geoff's thread here cause I think it fits in with what I have seen a lot of people go through as they read about tuning or hear a tunee talk but haven't yet experienced it.

Harold Cooper

"I was very skeptical of the whole tuning thing myself until I came to Michael's place in Vegas and experienced it myself first hand. I had always used Michael's pillow products and some PZC's on occasion in my rooms, with excellent results. But going the final steps made me skeptical. Coming here and sitting in his room (and it is a very humble room in the world of tuning) - it totally blew me away! I had never heard recordings that I knew sound that great - extreme width, depth, 3D soundstage, and surround sound all from a humble system! If you haven't heard this - you have no leg to stand on to criticize this method. I also experienced the full tunable room that Michael designed for a client in Chicago. The owner gave the the wrench and I started listening and adjusting panels. WOW! WOW! It was so intuitive, and I could get the sound I wanted for every recording I tried. If I had one of these (I will someday) I would never leave the house! I have been to the mountain and shaken hands with the auricle."

One thing about the tune that I enjoy is the upbeat tone people bring when they experience this level of listening. Maybe tomorrow I can get him to come up and talk about the piano he listened to today, or maybe we will link to his comments on TuneLand.

michael green
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"We've explored every inch of the audio chain"

Michael, the problem with your statement that you've "explored every inch of the audio chain" is that the Devil is in the things you can't explore, cannot see. Like wire and fuse directionality since the problem is microscopic. Where is Costin's electron microscope when we need it? Like scattered laser light. Like Radio Frequency Interference. Like magnetic fields. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but Tunees appear to be sweeping these problems under the carpet. Everybody and his brother knows by now that fuses do not break in the same in each direction. If that were true we wouldn't have a problem. Of course you're right that disturbing the contact can change the sound but that is an entirely different issue and quite irrelevant to my point. You could say it's a Strawman Argument because it is. As I already mentioned somewhere along the line data sheets are provided on the HiFi Tuning web site that illustrate the electrical differences in fuse directionality, not to mention changes in electrical properties due to cryogenically treating fuses. Another invisible interloper on the sound is RFI/EMI, a subject I do not see Tunees talk about. Is talking about RFI/EMI a big TuneLand Taboo? Lol or is it another one of those things you and Toledo regard as a minor annoyance and of little consequence to the sound? Again, I hate to judge these things too harshly but it does appear the Tunees are a couple of paradigms behind the power curve, at least in terms of what we in the high end know.

It's what I choose to believe. - Dr. Shaw in Prometheus

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vibratory and field testing

Interesting Geoff, family photo? sorry had to

I just hung up from one of our tunable room labs, where caps are about to be worked on which I will be doing some of the prepping here. If anyone has questions during that time it would be fun to test things in real time.

As I mentioned on here, but can mention again on this thread, we setup test labs where we explore the different parts to audio. Have been doing this since the 80's, and you can read about these labs on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . To give the nut shell again though we take the entire audio chain and break it down like a train track so we can test literally the whole thing. In the lab you will find a tunable room free standing so we can walk around it. Inches away is the fuse box, then power lines that go from the box to the parts chain. In the purist labs there are no outlets at all, straight from the box to the parts. The electronic part of the chain is laid out on a tunable mechanically grounded station outside of the room, where any type of transfer and field testing is done. Again you can see pictures of these on Tuneland.

We use two power sources in our tests one battery and the other circuit box. At some of the labs there are even recording studios where we do direct source referencing.

When doing field testing we work with materials, spacing and variable transfer. What we have found is the field world like the rest of the audio signal reacts to vibrations. We have done the enclosed shielding but every time have found music info coming up missing when viewed on a big stage. We have takin this study from a small piece of shielding material (many different types) all the way to enclosing. The most telling part to the studies is that fields want to intermingle. This fits in with the physics of "fundamental interaction", that we have found to be pretty right on. There is no cause without effect.

As we have been saying, there is a huge difference between talking and doing. As far as transformers and we have said this here already too, it is not just the transformers that are surrounded and creators of fields. Every part in the audio chain is an active intermingler of fields and these fields respond at both fundamental and harmonic levels. Fascinating to hear this in real time and space, but fields are actually a natural part of the audio signal. There's a vibratory response that happens with all materials and the energies that they live in. Acoustically this is easy to hear by moving objects in a room while listening, but just as real when moving materials around the audio signal. Our testing is always blind fold cause the listener is in the room while the testing station is outside. These test labs are the most sensitive facilities I have ever been in and am told by other testing labs perhaps the most revealing, so we feel pretty comfortable in our findings.

These facilities allow us to do all types of testing of course, such as direction, but these types of changes in a system pale in importance to the actual tuning. For example: you can purify the signal to the point where you can make your own tuning standoff and raise or lower each part in the system to put in-tune the audio signal. So we look at the fields as something not to try to kill but something that is a natural part wanting to to be tuned.

fuses

It's actually a little funny to hear someone make a fuss about direction. You notice that most of these people use snap on fuse settings. They snap out the fuse, turn it around then snap it back in, but do they tell you how they snap them back in or how? Fact is you can leave the fuse right where it is and spin it and the sound will change. You can loosen the clip and it will change, do end tapping instead of snap on (change), do direct line fusing instead of snap on (change), vertical fusing (change). We even made a tunable fuse holder.

Now let me share something with you. Look at where the fuse is located in relationship to the transformer. If the transformer is close and the fuse has one end facing the transformer and the other slightly further away there will be more build up at the end that is closest. Same thing will happen if a fuse is close to a cap. A lot of times people mistake reversing a flow with the signal flow as oppose to something as simple as field influence.

You don't need a fancy scope, you need to start looking at your system with common sense and doing. Those playing with fields. Take the time to place that mu metal in different spots on the board not just around the transformer. Get use to the sound signature of the mu metal and every time you set it by something, if you have a revealing system you will hear it's change (intermingle) with every part or piece.

Geoff, my recommendation is that you move from talk to doing. Spread yourself out a test table and actually do the things you talk about and see what is going on instead of posting pictures of monkeys and donkeys to be used as your arguements.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Who ...?
michael green wrote:

I have the honor of having Harold Cooper here ....
michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I am just an old curmudgeon.
My common knowledge ends around 1990.
Who is Harold Cooper?

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

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never mind....Google is a wonderful thing when properly used...

He is an audio consultant....humm....

http://soundconsultant.com/home-audio-system/

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

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Who is Harold Cooper?
wkhanna wrote:
michael green wrote:

I have the honor of having Harold Cooper here ....
michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I am just an old curmudgeon.
My common knowledge ends around 1990.
Who is Harold Cooper?

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

I'm pretty sure he's the guy that bailed out of the commercial airliner with all the money out west somewhere. Of course, there's the possibility I've been misinformed.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Coming soon, a picture of a mule
michael green wrote:

Interesting Geoff, family photo? sorry had to

> Maybe.

I just hung up from one of our tunable room labs, where caps are about to be worked on which I will be doing some of the prepping here. If anyone has questions during that time it would be fun to test things in real time.

As I mentioned on here, but can mention again on this thread, we setup test labs where we explore the different parts to audio. Have been doing this since the 80's, and you can read about these labs on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . To give the nut shell again though we take the entire audio chain and break it down like a train track so we can test literally the whole thing. In the lab you will find a tunable room free standing so we can walk around it. Inches away is the fuse box, then power lines that go from the box to the parts chain. In the purist labs there are no outlets at all, straight from the box to the parts. The electronic part of the chain is laid out on a tunable mechanically grounded station outside of the room, where any type of transfer and field testing is done. Again you can see pictures of these on Tuneland.

We use two power sources in our tests one battery and the other circuit box. At some of the labs there are even recording studios where we do direct source referencing.

When doing field testing we work with materials, spacing and variable transfer. What we have found is the field world like the rest of the audio signal reacts to vibrations. We have done the enclosed shielding but every time have found music info coming up missing when viewed on a big stage. We have takin this study from a small piece of shielding material (many different types) all the way to enclosing. The most telling part to the studies is that fields want to intermingle. This fits in with the physics of "fundamental interaction", that we have found to be pretty right on. There is no cause without effect.

> Well, waves interact. That is something they teach in high school I'm pretty sure. Fields may or may not interact. Depends on a number of factors.

As we have been saying, there is a huge difference between talking and doing. As far as transformers and we have said this here already too, it is not just the transformers that are surrounded and creators of fields. Every part in the audio chain is an active intermingler of fields and these fields respond at both fundamental and harmonic levels.

> Whatever that means.

Fascinating to hear this in real time and space, but fields are actually a natural part of the audio signal.

> So you say. Sounds pretty iffy to me. Let's see, the audio signal in the chain of electronics is an electromagnetic wave. And in the room it is an acoustic wave. There, does that help?

There's a vibratory response that happens with all materials and the energies that they live in.

> Well, if you mean all objects have a natural frequency, a resonant frequency, I agree. Everyone knows that.

Acoustically this is easy to hear by moving objects in a room while listening, but just as real when moving materials around the audio signal. Our testing is always blind fold cause the listener is in the room while the testing station is outside. These test labs are the most sensitive facilities I have ever been in and am told by other testing labs perhaps the most revealing, so we feel pretty comfortable in our findings.

> Who would disagree that moving things around in the room is audible? Not I said the blind carpenter as he licked up his hammer and saw. I trust you are aiming for provocative in that statement....

These facilities allow us to do all types of testing of course, such as direction, but these types of changes in a system pale in importance to the actual tuning. For example: you can purify the signal to the point where you can make your own tuning standoff and raise or lower each part in the system to put in-tune the audio signal. So we look at the fields as something not to try to kill but something that is a natural part wanting to to be tuned.

> That's all a little too holistic and new agey for me. This is bound to happen when physics majors meet English majors.

fuses

It's actually a little funny to hear someone make a fuss about direction.

> I knew you would say that! That's one reason why there is a schism between Tweakers and Tuners. It's the Tuners' proclivity to sweep anything they don't believe in under the carpet.

You notice that most of these people use snap on fuse settings. They snap out the fuse, turn it around then snap it back in, but do they tell you how they snap them back in or how? Fact is you can leave the fuse right where it is and spin it and the sound will change. You can loosen the clip and it will change, do end tapping instead of snap on (change), do direct line fusing instead of snap on (change), vertical fusing (change). We even made a tunable fuse holder.

> that's the same old argument naysayers have been using for years to discredit expensive aftermarket cables. Hel-loo! You have become the poster child for Strawman Argument.

Now let me share something with you. Look at where the fuse is located in relationship to the transformer. If the transformer is close and the fuse has one end facing the transformer and the other slightly further away there will be more build up at the end that is closest. Same thing will happen if a fuse is close to a cap. A lot of times people mistake reversing a flow with the signal flow as oppose to something as simple as field influence.

> As I already said many times, the magnetic field affects everything around it. You say that as if you haven't heard this before. I should point out that, of course, there are lots of things going in on many levels, magnetic fields, electromagnetic waves, vibrating wires and fuses. Hel-loo! That's what I've been saying all along! Boy are you slow on the uptake sometimes.

You don't need a fancy scope, you need to start looking at your system with common sense and doing. Those playing with fields. Take the time to place that mu metal in different spots on the board not just around the transformer. Get use to the sound signature of the mu metal and every time you set it by something, if you have a revealing system you will hear it's change (intermingle) with every part or piece.

> Ah, so now the grasshopper teaches the teacher.

Geoff, my recommendation is that you move from talk to doing. Spread yourself out a test table and actually do the things you talk about and see what is going on instead of posting pictures of monkeys and donkeys to be used as your arguements.

> I will look for a picture of a mule next. I may be slow but I'm ahead of you.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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Stereophile

Stereophile, straighten up your act and get rid of these jerks, or do you see this type of behavior a representation of you?

I'm tired of turning people on to this forum and having them tell me that you guys look like a joke!

Pretty darn classless Stereophile!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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the variable audio chain

Reading through the thread you have seen that everything in the audio chain is variable. Transformers, resistors, caps, boards, wire, cabinets, walls, everything in the system vibrates. Everything in the audio chain is in motion. From the electric coming into the house to the hairs in your ears. Your system is one big music making machine in action.

This being the case, everything in your system is also tunable. As stated earlier the music starts with tuning and along every step of the way it remains tunable without exception. This is the natural next step to the hobby and industry. Doing away with design flaws, doing away with bandaids because of the flaws, and getting down to what is needed and how to shape it. Once your mind gets around this, it's time to get started.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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something you might enjoy

Hi Guys

Think you might enjoy my writings on the audio code. I'll try to fill in some of the gaps when I get around to it. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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thanks forum

I will do my best to bump some of the threads, or at least try to make it a point to show you where to pickup on listeners tuning in real time. If you do have a hard time getting around TuneLand let me know what your hunting for and I'll try to point you there or even start a new thread to help out.

Lately it's been extremely busy so if I over-look a request, like this one about the method please let us know.

Great to see you guys getting into it! get tuned!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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