Are we talking snake oil here or just "normal" but over priced products?

For example, high end network and USB cables - pure and utter BS.

On the other hand, although widely debated, after market power cords can often yield a noticeable improvement but many people have a price point beyond which no power cord will be deemed worthwhile.

So exactly what do you have in mind?

I use my larger scales.

If...it..weighs the same as a duck, it's not worth the asking price.

Canard

This is like porn. It's hard to describe, but I know it when I hear it!

Cables immediately come to mind. I know they make a difference and in some instances, a big difference. But, the prices of most of these audio goodies is offensively absurd to my sensibilities. NASA wouldn't even spend this sort of stupid money on toilet seats for the space shuttle.

My bullshit meter is pretty sensitive and I know when a company is charging a ridiculous price on some of their gear just because they can and they want to attain a certain status or level of elitism in their offerings. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy their lower priced stuff, but the jump to the "very best" isn't meant to be a value offering, it's meant to be a status symbol for both the buyer and the builder.

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I know they make a difference and in some instances, a big difference.

aye?

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My bullshit meter is pretty sensitive

WOW!

I think anything over say.. 5.5 grand.

My bullshit meter is indicating you think I'm full of bullshit. See, I told you it was uncanny!

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Aloha,
In your travels through the Hi Fi hobby, have you ever come to a line in the sand, across which you have seen products that fail to establish their worth in terms of value regarding their performance?

All so called full range single driver dynamic speakers and many single ended amps using 300B tubes & many expensive moving coil cartridges aren't worth the asking price to my ears. CD's & SACS's are often absurdly expensive. I also draw a line in the sand if I think far too much of the asking price relates to unnecessary cosmetics, especially when the end result is ostentatious and often just plain ugly.

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Failed sonically? In terms of expected reliability? In terms of product support from the manufacturer?

All Sony products I've owned came with appalling back up service. Four months to have a spare part shipped from Japan and no extension on the warrantee? That's criminal.

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Do you think it is fair of anyone to set this line in the sand? Is it fair to discuss it, or are all products "worth what they can get away with charging?"

The line in the sand as regards reliability is seldom set by audioporn magazines as their readers want reviews of new gear, not gear that's been around long enough to measure reliability. However, that shouldn't prevent the audioporn magazines from giving honest assessments of particular brands reliability as experience over time must tell them something.

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Are there products that, knowing what goes into them, you could never feel comfortable with based on their market price....no matter the sound?

Yes, overpriced boutique interconnects and cables. Having made my own interconnects and cables and finding them better than many that sell for insane prices I suggest this is one of the most common hi-fi rip-offs.

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How do you determine where your borders in the realm of value lie?

Hard to set any objective standard for this kind of thing as the person handing over the hard-earned cash is the only one who gets to set a value on their own possessions. That's a different scale though than the relationship between manufacturing, advertising & research costs as a portion of the retail price.

The original direct drive Technics turntables

Carvers original 'Sonic Holigraphy' devices

Sony's original PCM F1 Digital recorder

Any record costing over $50 or any CD for more than $20..

Power conditioners that cost in the thousands (simply plugging in a dedicated line does more for far less)

Any item with a cost over $50K...

Any cable costing more than $1K

Any RAP recording in any format

High Def recordings of unknown music by unknown performers costing more than $5

(this is fun)

Cardis caps when one can get the same thing for 1/3 the price from other makers.

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Any RAP recording in any format

High Def recordings of unknown music by unknown performers costing more than $5

I second on both!

I would also add any recording by anyone who has ever been on American Idol costing more than 0.000000000000000000000000001 cents!

If you say so...I can see it now...

(sorry about the giant photo...fixed I think)

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Hip Hop can be killer great!

Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

Spoken word along with music had been around long before hip-hop/rap ever came along. The main difference between most spoken word with music versus rap is that most spoken word with music at least tries to have some meaningful prose. Rap, at least in its present form, is all about boasting with some, but very very rare, clever rhymes and lots and lots of very foul language.

During the early years of hip-hop/rap there were many attempts to combine rap with other musical forms such as rock and jazz but since rap is such a musical dead end these efforts have long since ceased. Add in the fact that many rap stars eventually turn to other, more advanced musical forms, such as R&B or soul, in order to further their careers and expand their range. Rap has become a niche genre similar to death metal and smooth jazz - good for a quick buck but completely devoid of any musical merit.

However with all that said the worst rap is still way better than the best of American Idol!

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Spoken word along with music had been around long before hip-hop/rap ever came along. The main difference between most spoken word with music versus rap is that most spoken word with music at least tries to have some meaningful prose. Rap, at least in its present form, is all about boasting with some, but very very rare, clever rhymes and lots and lots of very foul language.

I disagree...Music is both instrument and voice blended so as to make a pleasant experience. Rap is simply bad poetry spoken in poor English to a very loud musical background, the limitations of which are covered by very high volume and very poor engineering.

Hence my comment. RAP is not music and the sooner relegated to the dustbin of history the better.

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I disagree...Music is both instrument and voice blended so as to make a pleasant experience. Rap is simply bad poetry spoken in poor English to a very loud musical background, the limitations of which are covered by very high volume and very poor engineering.

Hence my comment. RAP is not music and the sooner relegated to the dustbin of history the better.

You're 100% right when it comes to present day rap but spoken word with music can and often is a pleasant experience. For example much of the work of the beat poets done in the 1950s. Hip and cool with bop not hop.

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I disagree...Music is both instrument and voice blended so as to make a pleasant experience. Rap is simply bad poetry spoken in poor English to a very loud musical background, the limitations of which are covered by very high volume and very poor engineering.

Hence my comment. RAP is not music and the sooner relegated to the dustbin of history the better.

You're 100% right when it comes to present day rap but spoken word with music can and often is a pleasant experience. For example much of the work of the beat poets done in the 1950s. Hip and cool with bop not hop.

Also almost entirely done with acoustic instruments, not overamped, distorted electronic ones.

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Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

No, they're both a subset of frontal lobotomy.

This...

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Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal takes or experiences?

is the topic. I contend the content of the music we are trying to reproduce is also subject to that 'value test' and RAP fails, loudly.

In Fact it is little more than a misspelling...They left off the first 'C'...

They DID ask for a 'personal take'.

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This...

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Hi Fi products that fail the "value" test. Any personal takes or experiences?

is the topic. I contend the content of the music we are trying to reproduce is also subject to that 'value test' and RAP fails, loudly.

In Fact it is little more than a misspelling...They left off the first 'C'...

They DID ask for a 'personal take'.

Well, occasionally you get it right, I have to admit.

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Dudes, don't make me get Ariel.

Best. Comment. Ever.

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OK, back to it....

Lousy value:

Okay, but you knew this was coming. Any silver audio disc player costing more than $3,000 and any CD transport regardless of price. I say this because, especially the CD transport part, because for a mere $300 one can get a Squeezebox Touch, which is equal to, if not better than, just about any mega-buck CD transport.

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OK, back to it....

Lousy value:

Okay, but you knew this was coming. Any silver audio disc player costing more than $3,000 and any CD transport regardless of price. I say this because, especially the CD transport part, because for a mere $300 one can get a Squeezebox Touch, which is equal to, if not better than, just about any mega-buck CD transport.

While that's a comforting thought, I suspect it might be rather difficult to prove in practice. If you've evalauted the Squeezebox Touch against "just about" all megabuck transports I will retract my comment without prejudice.

"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance."

MC 900 Foot Jesus?

That's my friend Mark. He was a music student for awhile at UNT. He still lives in Dallas

He is a very nice guy, super laid back and very smart.
Adept at classical and jazz.
There are other musical hip/hoppers out there.
Check out Ojos de Brujo for some very sophisticated flamenco hiphop. Complex rythms with melodic counterpoint.

You skeptics out there, don't dismiss rap, hiphop based on the commercial junk you hear on the radio. There is some very good stuff out there.

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Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

I've wondered about that, too. But I think of them as two separate, independent things that sometimes come together. They come together nicely, I think, in a song like this:
Theophilus London, featuring Dev Hynes and Solange Knowles: "Flying Overseas."

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Rap, at least in its present form, is all about boasting with some, but very very rare, clever rhymes and lots and lots of very foul language.

Not all about boasting and foul language, though that is a part of it. But a lot of music -- from Delta blues to Detroit rock to Philly soul to NYC salsa -- employs boasting and foul language.

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During the early years of hip-hop/rap there were many attempts to combine rap with other musical forms such as rock and jazz but since rap is such a musical dead end these efforts have long since ceased.

I've lost track of rap. For awhile, it was my favorite type of music, and my favorite artists were: A Tribe Called Quest, Leaders of the New School, De La Soul, Digable Planets, The Pharcyde, Pete Rock & CL Smooth, Gangstarr, Black Sheep, Del the Funky Homosapien...

These guys made great music, and I do know they continue to inspire lots of other artists. Rap, I think, is like anything else: There's more than what we see/hear on the surface.

Something I forgot to mention: One criticism I've always had about rap is that it's just plain silly to use a simple, jolly A-B-A-B rhyme scheme to discuss gang violence or other serious urban topics. The format sometimes doesn't effectively communicate the message, in my opinion.

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Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

It was explained to me like this: Rap is the music of the hip-hop lifestyle. Similarly, graffiti is hip-hop's graphic art (or one of them).

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Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

to quote KRS-1: "Rap is something you do, but hip-hop is something you live.

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MC 900 Foot Jesus?

That's my friend Mark. He was a music student for awhile at UNT. He still lives in Dallas

He is a very nice guy, super laid back and very smart.
Adept at classical and jazz.
There are other musical hip/hoppers out there.
Check out Ojos de Brujo for some very sophisticated flamenco hiphop. Complex rythms with melodic counterpoint.

You skeptics out there, don't dismiss rap, hiphop based on the commercial junk you hear on the radio. There is some very good stuff out there.

Wow! Small damn world!

Tell him hello and that I miss him!

You Dallas guys need to get your Monkeyhaus mojo working! I'd travel for that!

I used to see Mark all the time back in the State Bar days.
The owner of the bar was a big supporter of MC.

Haven't seen Mark recently but I bet I will the next time I get to Lee Harvey's (we have some great bars here)

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Question: Is hip-hop a subset of rap or is rap a subset of hip-hop?

It was explained to me like this: Rap is the music of the hip-hop lifestyle. Similarly, graffiti is hip-hop's graphic art (or one of them).

And Graffiti is to art what Rap is to music...

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next time I get to Lee Harvey's (we have some great bars here)

Creative Contraption Event tonight. Should be a hoot!

its so easy to hate on something that one does not know about. the history of graffiti is rich and inspiring. It is a deep act of personal expression and making yourself known out of the masses. The best rise to the top.

Please continue the hip-hop discussion on why hip-hop sucks thread in our music section.

Buddha, in this thread, essentially are you asking if we've ever bought a component that after we took it home (or spending an extensive period of time with it), it simply wasn't good enough?

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its so easy to hate on something that one does not know about. the history of graffiti is rich and inspiring. It is a deep act of personal expression and making yourself known out of the masses. The best rise to the top.

Please continue the hip-hop discussion on why hip-hop sucks thread in our music section.

Buddha, in this thread, essentially are you asking if we've ever bought a component that after we took it home (or spending an extensive period of time with it), it simply wasn't good enough?

Alas, it is both vandalism and artistically crap. If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc, not simply paint over accompanied by considerable profanity.

Art might be in the eye of the beholder but is it art when 99% of its recipients immediately try to remove the gift from their property.

If I woke up tomorrow and found this:

on my front porch, I would not spend the rest of the day trying to remove it from my property, accompanied by profanity in 3 languages and profound question as to the intellectual merit of the dolts who graced my property with their 'art'.

Again, if it is art, folk would buy it, not try to remove it as fast as possible. This is simply particularly nasty and hard to remove trash.

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More thread drift....

I also like good graffiti....

Some examples

Keith Haring's chalk graffiti really made the world a better place....to me.

I also like "people graffiti" alot....

Body painting is only graffiti when the body being painted is best left well covered...

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If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc.

They do. Have you heard of Bansky? David Choe? Basquiat?

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Something I forgot to mention: One criticism I've always had about rap is that it's just plain silly to use a simple, jolly A-B-A-B rhyme scheme to discuss gang violence or other serious urban topics. The format sometimes doesn't effectively communicate the message, in my opinion.

Finally some sensible analysis of this form and from a practicing musician. For me it's not just the monotonous A-B-A-B rhyme scheme that's dull as dishwater and mismatched to the lyrics, the music's so often boring as well with a dreary tum de da de tum de da de format that's so damned predictable and worse than uninteresting that it's often just damned irritating.
Small things amuse small minds ?

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If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc, not simply paint over accompanied by considerable profanity.

after the initial public shock to graffiti which came about in the late 1970s in NYC, graffiti made its way into the art world as hip-hop culture turned into the ultimate for of underground art culture. many graffiti artists profited during this time as their work was traded (many were also taken advantage of -- while their work was of intense cultural value, they were often taken advantage of by art buyers and dealers).

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Art might be in the eye of the beholder but is it art when 99% of its recipients immediately try to remove the gift from their property.

I will agree that its unfortunate that most graffiti are simple tags that are mostly sloppy line drawings, but even the best tags not only deserve respect but should be appreciated for their 'style'. Graffiti came about as a way for the many nameless bronx teens to make a voice for themself by creating an identity which they could make everpresent through 'tagging'. Style and bravery were highly regarded in this action.

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If I woke up tomorrow and found this:

on my front porch, I would not spend the rest of the day trying to remove it from my property, accompanied by profanity in 3 languages and profound question as to the intellectual merit of the dolts who graced my property with their 'art'.

really? if someone painted that on the front of your house you wouldn't say "wtf is this? well this sure is nice, but its coming down right away."?

while graffiti may appear to you as 'non-art' i can guarantee that for kids in art class 10 years from now, it will be up there with printmaking or collage as just another form of art -- this time street art.

the question of whether something is art is all about perspective. so, yes, you are welcome to call graffiti a non-art. i have some gripes with photography that i could share another time. but what i think you cannot deny is that like many other artistic movements, graffiti is based on personal expression and defying the societal norms and rules, like many other previous artistic movements. In addition, the most talented graffiti artists hold the same level of talent as your most talented painters. Thus in the history books, graffiti will be art.

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Again, if it is art, folk would buy it, not try to remove it as fast as possible. This is simply particularly nasty and hard to remove trash.

so if it were the same thing on a canvas, would it be art?

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Something I forgot to mention: One criticism I've always had about rap is that it's just plain silly to use a simple, jolly A-B-A-B rhyme scheme to discuss gang violence or other serious urban topics. The format sometimes doesn't effectively communicate the message, in my opinion.

Finally some sensible analysis of this form and from a practicing musician. For me it's not just the monotonous A-B-A-B rhyme scheme that's dull as dishwater and mismatched to the lyrics, the music's so often boring as well with a dreary tum de da de tum de da de format that's so damned predictable and worse than uninteresting that it's often just damned irritating.
Small things amuse small minds ?

Well, I'm not saying that all rap follows a simple, tedious rhyme scheme. I'm just saying that some of it does, and, when it does, I find it to be foolish and weak.

The music, however, is some of the most consistently exciting and innovative stuff I think we're likely to hear on pop radio. Rap and hip-hop producers are amazing! In our October 2010 "Recording of the Month," we hear Nick Cave discuss the current state of experimentation in music: "What was considered noise [my italics; he means "noise" in a good sense] maybe 30 years ago is now meat and potatoes of your typical hip-hop track

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If it had any value folk would buy it, trade in it seriously, insure it, etc.

They do. Have you heard of Bansky? David Choe? Basquiat?

So the vandalism of a very few is deemed by some of the art challenged to have value...and the other 99.999999% that is simply the destruction of private property? I also must note that the selling price of property suffering the blight of graffiti seldom goes up (as in never).

If one sold a home with a Monet, or a Vermeer, or Sargent included, the price would go up, not down...and one never seems to hear the terms 'blighted', 'ghetto or 'slum' used when real art is an issue.

Do many look for graffiti when looking to buy a home or start a business?

Not on my planet

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I will agree that its unfortunate that most graffiti are simple tags that are mostly sloppy line drawings, but even the best tags not only deserve respect but should be appreciated for their 'style'. Graffiti came about as a way for the many nameless bronx teens to make a voice for themself by creating an identity which they could make everpresent through 'tagging'. Style and bravery were highly regarded in this action.

Oh for heavens sake...If I was to show up at your home or business, pee on the grass and then spray painted screed on your walls, I suspect you would be less forgiving of my "Style and bravery."

You elevate a temper tantrum coupled with an alarming amount of license with 'art'. If these were well to do white folk going to the hood and vandalizing the private property of poor folk, the art would become what it is in all cases...vandalism.

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but what i think you cannot deny is that like many other artistic movements, graffiti is based on personal expression and defying the societal norms and rules, like many other previous artistic movements.

Art outlasts the fad...if 100 years from now business trashed with the mess are national landmarks, I will concede it was perhaps art, but I expect it to be as long lived as the dutch tulip fad, and other silly ideas embraced by the intelligentsia of the time and now scoffed at as lunacy..