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November 26, 2015 - 6:55pm
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Help me figure out why my new system isn't what I hoped?
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I don't have any experience with the Rogue product but am a user of B&W speakers. I don't know why your system is not performing the way you expected it to and the only suggestion I have is maybe calling Rogue tomorrow? Perhaps they can help you trouble shoot some things over the phone. Also maybe taking your bi-wire and wapping over onto the 683/Rogue system and see if there is a difference?
Try attaching the Rogue to the CMs and the Pioneer to the 683s. If you hear a noticeable reduction in quality with the CMs being driven by the Rogue, then you know the Rogue is the issue. Alternatively, if the Rogue sounds good driving the CMs, then you need to test the 683s. If the Pioneer sounds bad driving the 683s then it is the 683s. You get the idea. Isolate the problem.
Once you do that, it should be obvious if you should contact Rogue or B&W. Are you still within the return window on either item?
Hi greenmtnman
Unfortunately this is a far more common story than you will ever hear talked about. Try to find a local audio specialist to come re-set it up. If they and you can't get it sounding the way you want see if the companies will take the product back.
I hope it does get better, but sadly this is a story that surfaces much too often.
Here's our site address. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
If you would like to share this with the TuneLand members more than likely some of our guys or even myself will try to walk you through some things.
good luck, hopefully it's something simple
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
The 683 speakers get great reviews repeatedly, and it is very unlikely that they are the problem. You can count on them to sound good.
Pioneer amps/receivers are a mixed bag, but obviously yours is sounding decent.
So why haven't you hooked the Pioneer up to the 683 speakers? That will tell you something.
My guess is the 12AU7 preamp tubes in the Sphinx are probably bad. I would replace them. The unit has a good reputation, and the tubes are the most likely issue.
The Music Hall 15.3 amplifier is only $600 and I know it sounds good, so you might want to dump the Rogue and get it if you can't get the Rogue sorted out.
Thanks everyone for your very helpful comments, more helpful than I even expected thanks so much!
I did as suggested and swapped speakers around between amps (no small task) and tried a bunch of different sources (from lap top to LP to 44.1 HD tracks to CD), and after doing careful sound tests with my wife (all subjective of course) we have come to the conclusion that A) it's definitely not the speakers, and the 683s sound better all around in both systems than the htm61s B) we were not listening at comparable volume levels or distances and didn't realize that at first, but equalized that, which made a difference (we were pushing the rogue harder, the room is just a touch bigger and emptier) C) it's not as different as we thought, my wife thinks they're very close, but at best what I think is the rogue is slightly worse, and at worst it's moderately worse- especially in terms of high-end distortion (cymbal, etc.) and sound stage. Not good for something that cost 3x as much and is designed for this sort of thing. This is only at moderate to high volumes I might add (-20 to -5dB).
But you're all right: both (B&W, Rogue) come HIGHLY and universally well regarded, and I'm no expert, so I am certainly not implicating that one of the products is bad, maybe it's me, or maybe I just got a one off dud amp- oh, and both are well outside the return period we've had them over a month now.
So, I'm going to take the cheapest fix first: swap tubes in the sphinx, thank you for that suggestion, it was a good one! This is not the V2 version, I don't believe, so there is a chance it has been sitting for some time (I bought it new from a USA authorized dealer in OH, but I did get it on eBay, so who knows). I got the "premium upgrade" package from tube store for $80, which I feel is a compromise vs. getting an audio pro to come in or ditch the amp and get a new one...and if this doesn't help, I'll try a different route?
I'll take further suggestions if anyone has any!
you are well on your way down the rabbit hole sir, good for you! Just remember our ears all hear different things and just because something costs three times as much there is no guarantee that it will automatically sound better.
Also always remember to try to isolate the problem first just as you did so you have a more clear cut strategy as to what should come next.
Try, try and try again should be our motto lol!
It really should not matter if the Rogue was 'sitting around' somewhere, because nothing really ages when it sits.
There is always the chance of a dud tube, though, and that could certainly cause your problem.
The best bet when buying tubes is to find a company that actually tests and screens each tube. The best-tested ones get sold at a premium price and the others either get sold at lower prices or wholesaled off to another retailer.
Audio Research does this, and Upscale Audio also does.
Of course, the best tubes get priced higher; no bargains
You can do your own screening and grading if you have a tube tester. Vintage tube testers are available, typically from $100 to $300 online.
I strongly recommend buying a tube tester if you are going to be dealing with tubes in the long run.
The best ones to look for are B & K, Hickock, Eico, and Heathkit. Many are listed on eBay. Make sure the manual is complete and included, because they are worthless if you don't have the settings for each tube type.
Hi Greenmtnman, if you said that you get distortion at only half of the volume it sounded like the speakers are underpowered. But the Rogue Shinx puts out 100 wpc into 8 ohms, and your B&W 683 is pretty efficient speaker and isn't hard to drive but they might need more clean power to sound its best. People usually use the Rogue Spinx to drive bookshelf speakers or very compact floorstanders. That's just what I think. Or it might as well be a dud tube as the Commysman suggested. Experiment with different things if possible or consult the dealer that you bought them from. Or maybe they don't have good synergy together. Who knows? If I were u I wouldn't use center channel speakers as main front speakers.
So, new tubes arrived. I popped them in, and we fired it up at about 1/4 volume and instantly my wife says "WOW I can tell a difference already!". I had the same sentiment. So then, after a few moments, we cranked it up to where things would normally fall apart- no distortion, and it sounded SO much better. Better sound stage, much cleaner mids and up high. So, naturally, I cranked it way up. Beyond what I ever did before, and I never reached distortion, I just reached full power and too loud to enjoy (which is saying something coming from me). So I guess, problem solved? I can't figure out exactly if the old tubes were no good, or just didn't stand up to my discerning ears. But either way, I'm happy now. Anyone who comes along this in the future I got them from the tube store and they're the "premium" upgrade package for the sphinx. I've never tube rolled and this is my first go at all this, and now I'm totally thinking...what would happen if I tried some other tubes!?!?!
One other note about using centers for stereo- don't knock it until you've tried it with my speakers! I was nervous about the same thing, narrow sound stage/heavy mids/musicality etc...but I had the opportunity to pick these up so cheaply I could sell them for 4x as much if it didn't work out. They are great for how I use them in that other system, lots of sound stage, full range speakers with plenty of power. Decent size too. Great for surround.
Anyways, thanks so much guys I really appreciate the help!
Great that you finally solved the problem.
Live with the new tubes for a few months and decide what you like and dislike. Be crazy about it and even consider keeping notes. Then, call Kevin at Upscale Audio and he will help you pick out new tubes if you want to begin rolling. There aren't many people alive who know more about tubes than he does and he has a awesome selection of new, vintage and NOS. When you're ready, he is an extraordinary resource.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll do exactly that!
With some trepidation, I have an update.
Both of the tubedepot tubes "blew" within a week, and right out of the box the 3rd replacement was super noisy and terrible. I can't recommend them and will be requesting a full refund. I mean, we're not talking a little noise- think FM static.
No problems with the stock tubes, they continue to function fine- just don't sound good at all.
I did notice that when I turn the amp on the tubes light up "very" bright and then dim to a low level and sit at that level for the rest of the time. Is that normal?
Contacted Rick at Rogue. He has been prompt and thorough in responding I will give them that. We're discussing options, and he believes that there's nothing wrong with the amp, just that I don't like the sound of the stock tubes. Fine. He is going to suggest some new ones (I had to email him my tastes).
I will upgrade as the saga unfolds. Really getting frustrated that I bought something "so expensive" (I realize this is all relative) and that now have to spend more money on it. Do you guys think I had unreasonable expectations? Many reviews site this amp as "incredible" and capable of doing just about anything and driving just about any speakers. I think it sounds harsh and highly distorted- I cringe at moderate/high levels with singers S's sounding shrill and cymbal/high hats, synth treble "hurting" my ears.
At least it must just be the tubes, since before the tubedeopt tubes blew it did indeed sound good/very good.
grrrr
Thanks everyone for your replies again, this site has been very helpful (been scanning the other forums trying to think of a next course of action if I need to replace this)
I am sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with this. If you can get a refund from Tube Depot, move on and buy from Upscale Audio. They test and grade all tubes
Thank you. I intend on doing exactly what you suggest. I'll wait and see what nick suggests and go from there.