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April 9, 2015 - 9:51pm
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have you thought about.....?
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Actually I agree with the whole idea of very thin cabling. I spent a lot of time in Mapleshade's lab down in DC and at the show in Vegas, where Pierre and Ron used their Omega Mikro cables. So I am quite famIliar with those cables. The Omega Mikos conductors are 54 guage. If you don't know how thin 54 guage is it's the thickness of a human hair. Very remarkable sound with those cables, open airy, very low distortion and extremely good bass performance. I still remember the CDs they played on the last day, an Indian music CD of Ali Akbar Khan on the Moment label and some bootleg Grateful Dead CD some guy brought over to play. My current portable lightweight headphones use conductors that are most likely on the order of 32 guage now that I think about it. I knew we'd finally agree on something.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica
We probably agree on a lot more stuff than you think. We both like simple. We both like tape. I agree with you that many audiophiles would be better off with head phones. We both like classic rock.
:)
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
When I was a teen, I used to frame houses with my grandpa during the summer. This particular day, we were starting a house in a rural area that was well back from the road, which happened to be where the power pole we were tapping into was located and where the temporary power was located. We had numerous extension cords in the back of the truck and I had to drag the compressor to the building site and get it running from the temporary pole via extension cords.
I grabbed a really long cord and hooked everything up and tossed the switch on the compressor. The compressor acted like it was struggling to get up to speed and running about half the rpms I was used to hearing it turn. Not knowing any better, I thought the compressor was going out.
My grandpa came over and shut it down and told me to go back to the truck and get the heavy cord and run it to the pole and compressor. The damn cord weighed about 50 lbs, which was about half what I weighed at the time and precisely why I didn't grab it to begin with. As you can guess, I hooked it up and the compressor ran like a new compressor without breaking a sweat.
The moral of the story is that just because a circuit board uses tiny traces to travel inches doesn't mean that it would be appropriate for different parts of the circuit that involve completely different requirements.
I'd like to add. We all know how much the 50's and 60's recordings have that special quality. We often say it's the Tube/Tape sound. Might I also add "the cable" of that time period sound.
I worked on some mixing with older studio gear in 2004, and it sounded horrible. The guy was braging about all this vintage stuff, but it sounded drained with no impact. I knew that sound right off the batt and looked. Sure enough the whole thing was rewired with new cable and connectors, disaster! This was in Detroit luckily, so on craigslist I went. Score, I was able to get enough original goodies to bring that old sound back from the dead. One of the tricks I did and use to do is remove all the jackets from the phono-plugs and XLR's. Now here's something else to think about. The XLR's back then were a lot different than now, and many recordings didn't use XLR's at all. In fact, many of your mics back then were hard-wire without a connector at the mic end. In my studio, the whole system was hardwired except for the effects bay, but even my echoplex was hardwired.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael, the points you raise in your first posting should challenge everyone to think !!
I have always agreed with you that ‘everything in the modern environment affects the sound’ and I do mean EVERYTHING !!
You have presented what, on the face of it, seems to outline a logical argument –i.e that the audio signal, carrying the musical information of (say) Dvorak’s New World, has an obstacle course to navigate – and WHAT an obstacle course it appears to be !!
And that, therefore, what is eventually presented into the room may not be all that was/is on the actual recording.
However, that seemingly logical argument is challenged by at least one anomaly.
Let me explain.
If we use my technique of using the letters of the alphabet to denote information i.e to work with the letters ABC + DEF through the XYZ to denote the musical information of Dvorak’s New World on the original recording, then the impression you outline is that some of those letters (some of the audio signal) will have been lost at the various hurdles you have illustrated and that what is eventually presented into the room will have (such as) letters JKL, MNO and RST lost during their journey.
No one knows just what is lost – UNTIL one does something which allows those letters (that musical information) to be suddenly resolved (heard) so much better.
The particular anomaly I am referring to is when one introduces such as the Schumann Resonance device into the listening environment. And, one suddenly resolves far more of the musical information in the form of better separation of the musical instruments, better depth, greater height and certainly better soundstage.
The Schumann Resonance device is NOT affecting the audio signal as it travels it’s tortuous journey through the audio system (the journey you outlined so well), nor is it affecting the acoustic air pressure waves in the room so, if one can now hear far more of the musical information i.e now the letters JKL, MNO and RST, then that means that that information JKL, MNO and RST must have ALREADY been presented into the room !!!! Which means that that information must have already overcome all the hurdles you outlined, to be presented into the room, by the loudspeakers.
I have suggested to you, many times before, that one cannot ignore anomalies and just skirt around them as though they never happened.
They happen, so they have to be dealt with because they are giving vital clues !!!! Clues that all is not how it might have appeared previously – before the anomaly.
Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.
May said
"I have suggested to you, many times before, that one cannot ignore anomalies and just skirt around them as though they never happened."
mg
May, might I make a suggestion. Why don't you start threads on your particular ideas and thoughts? That way if someone feels they have not answered your questions before, repeatedly, on other threads they can come up and say so.
Speaking for myself, I have stopped reading your posts all the way through because they say the same thing, and it gets tiring to answer the questions only to be told I have not. Maybe I have not answered questions to your liking or got engaged in your formulas, but I have given the answers based on our own research and the research of others to my satisfaction and theirs.
May says
"The Schumann Resonance device is NOT affecting the audio signal"
mg says
I disagree. On our particular planet everything affects everything else. This is my point of view, and you may disagree, but it is my view. I've never seen time stop, or wittnessed the Earth stop spinning. I believe in the four forces and physics, which I have said enough to make almost anyone including myself sick of hearing it. The things I say and do, I give reference to so people can look it up for themselves and come to their own conclusions. I'm not sure I can do any more than this. If this is skirting in your mind, I'm sorry that I have not been clear enough for you.
however to repeat myself, again
you said
"The particular anomaly I am referring to is when one introduces such as the Schumann Resonance device into the listening environment. And, one suddenly resolves far more of the musical information in the form of better separation of the musical instruments, better depth, greater height and certainly better soundstage."
mg repeats
These are not the results we got. Not saying that the devices didn't give your team the results you mentioned. I'm only saying these were not our results.
In some way you feel this is skirting the issue, and I can not understand why or even why the same question is brought up so much. As I said earlier, if you wish to start a thread so people can share their results with Schumann Resonance devices, I would think it would put an end to the repetition. Heck maybe I'll do it who knows.
However I do appreciate your marketing skills of the devices. Both you and geoff are good at giving the shopping lists of the items you push. Nothing wrong with that :)
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael wrote,
"In some way you feel this is skirting the issue, and I can not understand why or even why the same question is brought up so much. As I said earlier, if you wish to start a thread so people can share their results with Schumann Resonance devices, I would think it would put an end to the repetition. Heck maybe I'll do it who knows.
However I do appreciate your marketing skills of the devices. Both you and geoff are good at giving the shopping lists of the items you push. Nothing wrong with that :)"
Typical smug answer from you. Your whole problem as I (as an objective science guy and as a long time audio forum participant) see it is that you don't understand the difference between pushing products and using them to illustrate a point. Note to self: that point has apparently fallen on deaf ears. I make long lists myself, and I think I've seen May use the same tactic - to I illustrate a point. Why would we try to push someone else's products, we have tons of our own? On the contrary, neither May nor myself even push OUR OWN products very much here, you practically have to drag it out of us. Do you know why that is? No, you probably don't. Unlike yourself, I might add, who's obviously here to push Tuning and recruit new prospects. Speaking of which, whatever became your your BIG PROTECTOR, Toledo? Was he ousted? Did you have a falling out? Very strange since he was SO PROTECTIVE. I don't think I've ever witnessed a moderator on an audio forum bend over backwards so much for someone PUSHING his products on an audio site. Now that he's gone it's a jungle out here. Lol I suspect it's because you are still a couple paradigm shifts behind the times, and refuse to believe your TUNING world is not all encompassing. As you have stated on many occasions - "if there's anything out there we've already tried it and if it works for us it becomes part of my Tuning Empire." It occurs to me TuneLand is a lot like the fictitious town in the movie, Pleasantville, the streets of which don't go anywhere, they stop at the edge of town. Lol As I've stated on previous occasions, there are reasons why YOU get negative results with the Schumann device, with damping, with isolation, with freezing, with cryogenic treatment, and the other things you claim you've tested, INCLUDING MAY's PRODUCTS AND MINE. You know, things that most audiophiles DO have very good results with. Things that actually have a long history of SUCCESS. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense it's not true.
If you wish to find out how really effective the freezing technique is you need look not further than the thread I opened up on the subject on this forum recently. And please don't accuse me of pushing the freezing technique as it's FREE. Hel-llooo! Lol
The Freezing thread:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/fun-cryogenics-well-freezing-anyway
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.
Guys-
I LOVE cables and power cords. This facet has always been my niche' in our wonderful hobby.
For cables/cords priced above $10K, how do these companies arrive at these retail numbers ?
Additionally, these same companies charge another retail fee for extra meter(s) of said cables or power cords?
Hi Allen
Niche' marketing is something I have tried to separate myself from. Unfortunatly it is something High End Audio adopted with perhaps wrong timing, plan and leadership. I believe it's a big reason the public decided to walk away from this part of the hobby. To have a successful niche' market you have to have a strong medium to low end market as well. You also have to have a reasonable faithful following. The demographics need to have a good balance of repeat to new clients. In other words, High End Audio blew it when they tired to get on the same buying cycle as the auto business. In a matter of 5 years from 1990-95 high end audio created an imbalance between used and new products per client. The amp of the month club was way out of balance with the targeted buyers. No niche' market can support that amount of turn around unless you have a huge number of consumers, which the high end part of the audiophile world didn't have. They were saying they had the clents as if the hobby was growing, but the truth of it was, high end audio hit a peek and started to decline after reaching the point of saturation in the mid 90's. My years might be slightly off, but the events aren't.
here's part of it
So we get the picture of what happened, lets compare autos with audio. The car industry basically weeded out the many car companies for the few, then got on a yearly model schedule to feed a growing market. Competition yes, but still a team that played by the same basic rules. This industry of many members stuck to the rules and pushed the auto industry client into a must have in all the price ranges. In auto, the niche' companies are still a part of the mainstream. Meaning you can own a Focus, but still understand what a Ferrari is.
Stereo was on that same path. Everyone at one time knew who pioneer, marantz, acoustic research, bose, sony, philips.... were, and about how often the customer was going to make a buy. There were ads in the mainstream of public life so people were in the basic know. Plus there were about as many audio dealers per town as there were car dealerships. Paradise right? Then the stupidest move any industry based on art could do was done. High end audio wanted to become it's own male (mostly) ego engineer based hobby, separate from the mainstream. Instead of evolving, the art side of the stereo industry was replaced with spec pleasers. This chased away 95 percent of the stereo customers within a very short time. With engineers flooding their new hobby shops also came the audiophile debate team. Stores went from having fun, to calling arguing a form of fun, and most of the music lovers wanted nothing to do with this. Audiophile clubs eventually forums popped up all over the place but the regular buying person didn't want to be a part of this. This started happening right around the time Bose became considered the best in many minds of the average music lover, but high end had no comeback because with them walking away from the stereo founding father companies, and supporting companies that the public never knew about or even heard of, the client base was cut down to a tiny fraction of the whole. So small that this part of the hobby got to about the size of the two main audiophile magazines, Stereophile and TAS. Any of you who are long time show goers saw this happen. Packed rooms to almost noone.
High end audio only had one thing to do by this point, make the loyal clients pay!
As the number of high end audiophiles dropped, the prices kept going higher and higher. You the client was told this was do to sound, but behind the scenes companies who had 1,000 (if lucky) clients one year would have their base chopped in-half the next, or worse. These companies had no choice but to keep trying to get a new product into the review cycle and hope for another ride. Some companies were fortunate enough to do some fairly good numbers for this niche' market but even they, if they didn't join the mass marketplace (many of them turned to car audio) were going to experience a feast to famine change.
the choices are not made on the performance table
There will always be high end clients in any hobby that have more money to burn than God. In high end audio there are still to be said about 10,000 of them. When the other demographics are released you might be suprized. In the year 2000, Bose made more sales than all of high end audio put together. High end audio is now 25% that size. It gets worse. This is high end audio as a whole new & used with used passing new by more than double.
let's be realistic
Interconnects over $10,000.00? If this client doesn't have a from the ground up tunable room, I don't care how much technology is in that cable, a basic low mass cable is going to be on the same playing field.
If high end audio does not take a drastic turn in their marketing, making a wider demographic, it will more than likely be game over after this generation of listeners in the ultra-high dollar realm with the exception of a few.
sounds bad?
I personally don't see this as bad news or the end of the audiophile journey, quite the opposite. It's just the cycle of the audiophile life. People like Roy Hall, Ray Kimber and many many more, who have made the audiophile hobby affordable, are the heros and are the ones who will be followed into the next chapter of the hobby. Nice guys who love seeing people get great music. There's tons of them when you think about it, and if you know what you are doing you can put together whole systems, starting in the hundreds that sound fantastic.
Speaking for RoomTune, a whole basic room setup for $400.00 is nuts low. Speaker prices are coming down and there's a huge number again of nice basic musical receivers and integrated amps. Great basic turntables and some CDP's that cost next to nothing that sound great.
most importantly
I see a newer listeners that are not as arguement driven coming back to the hobby. They are more interested in great sound over the brand or engineering fights. Will they be a part of high end audio as we see it now? I'm not sure. I'm not sure they want to be, but they're out there as on lookers, and getting into or renewing their listening hobby as they walk away from the guilt buying and meaness of the past.
Did the ego/price movement need to happen? I'm not sure but we can see the other side of it, the light at the end of the tunnel. And we can see the mainstream being recognized as contributors again, after being put out of the minds of the audiophile for so long. The music lover has not gone anywhere and maybe the engineer can finally see them as equals. Maybe, who knows, even learn a thing or two :)
Are $10,000.00 cables worth it. The answer is this. Do those guys who spent the $10,000.00 own those cables after a year or two? I have found most of the guys spending that kind of money are also the same guys who buy a new car every, or every other, year. As for me, I don't believe a cable even breaks in fully until 3 or for years. Another question I need to ask those guys is. Why are those cables sitting on the ground, or curled up in a ball or sitting beside a power cable? I see a lot of expensive stuff, but it's just stuff till one knows how to drive it.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Excellent over-view, as always, MG-
I have always wondered how those companies arrive the various preice-points of both cables and power cords?
Which brands/models do you endorse/use in your system(s) ?
All:
My view: all I can say is, I am pro-cable...to a degree..based on my limited but direct experience with my own system.
Before, I had just whatever interconnects came with the DAC and stuff and Radio Shack speaker cable.... Some salesmen whom I thought was selling me "snake oil" conned me into buying intro-level Audioquest Speaker Cables and Interconnects. All I can say is, WOW. They really did make a significant difference in clarity, bass and treble separation, and bass extension to my untrained ears. Meaning if I can hear all of that, a "real" audiophile would likely hear even MORE benefit.
Again, for the record, I am PRO-CABLE/INTERCONNECT. Unsure as to AC yet. I am also inexperienced with variations of high-end cabling...I just know a step up in my system made a significant difference for the better. And back on topic, I can recommend Audioquest cables; at least their introductory lines. Unsure of the high-end stuff.
Respectfully,
Ron
Hi Allen
I'm running 3 systems at present here in Vegas. 4 if you count the outside setup.
First one: Picasso Type 1 interconnect, Bare Essence Type 1, with Bare Essence Power (hard wired)
Second system: Picasso T-2 interconnect, Bare Essence Type 2, Bare Essence 22 power.
System three I intermingle the cable for testing currently: Auto Note, Jorma, Kimber, Mexcel, Transparent Audio and Bare Essence Type 3.
hope you had a great weekend!
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
mg:
I noticed none of your cabling is Audioquest.... as I value your opinion, what is your opinion regarding their cabling?
Respectfully,
Ron
hi Ron
You've probably noticed by now that everything to me is an equalizer. You have different record codes and different audio pathways carrying those codes. At the end you have your space and your ears. That's a ton of variables.
I was an AudioQuest Dealer back when they were making modded Magnavox CDP's that I told you about. I started making my own cable, I think back around the early 90's, so it would be far out of context to give a fair review of their products. I've become so use to dealing with the electromagnetic fields within my own environment that I haven't used mass cables forever, it seems. I've always had good experiences with AQ, but I'm sure there are much more qualified voices on the matching up of these with components and speakers.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael wrote,
"I've become so use to dealing with the electromagnetic fields within my own environment that I haven't used mass cables forever...."
How exactly DO you deal with electromagnetic fields in your environment. That's a very interesting topic. I'm serious. How do you deal with them? I haven't see you talk about this topic very much. Are you squirrel holing some secrets in TunnelLand?
Share, share.
To be responsive to the question, yes, I had Audioquest cables, actually they were the Lapis Truth interconnects and Lapis Truth digital cable, both Air dielectric, the interconnects silver the digital cable copper. Both fantastic, of course. That was back in the days with naked Quad '57s and the Maplenoll air bearing everything up on my Nimbus single airspring sub Hertz platform with 200 lb of ballast and 500 feet of air tuning and two air buffers.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
MG-
I have always wanted to demo those JORMA cables/cords, let me know what you think about them?
Hi Allen
Unfortunately that would be more of a question for Harold Cooper than myself. He does more of the tuning of other products. As for me, I get feed back from the guys after they replace their old references for mine so that feed back wouldn't be that favorable for the cables moved on from. I go through about 500-900 feet of cable a month for listeners so it doesn't give me a whole lot of time for others cable anymore. Doesn't mean I'm down on others cable, I'm just busy on mine.
good to see you as always
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Many Thanks! MG-
have you tried/heard the Stage III Concepts offered by Brian @ Aaudio Imports?
These are my reference power cords (PC) at the moment.