Hi Costin

There are many types of listeners. I wish all of us well. I'm not sure why you would send me a dear john letter, it's your system and your hair. I wish you wouldn't paint a picture though of the need to tune every recording. Many who tune don't do this and some do, that's up to them. I do, one because it's my job to know each recording and system, and two I like to go after everything a recording has to give, it's always been my life and I really enjoy it.

Costin, there are people who love tube changing, and people who love cleaning, adjusting and listening to 15 minutes of music on their tables. People who love to experiment with cables (a whole industry worth). There are people who DIY, and tons of those who love the idea of engineering. There are equipment collectors, and guys who spend their money climbing the class ladder. There are people who believe the components are what it is about, and others who feel the speaker is the most important part. There are people who like to talk theory, and others who could care less. There's all types of audiophiles. All of these people have a place in this hobby as well you do. If you choose to pick one sound in a system and play your music through that sound, I can't really think of anyone who would mind, I don't. I choose to play the music not the system, I hope that is ok with you. I also have a host of hobbyist who do want to go further, and I hope that too is ok with you.

I wrote this a few days ago on TuneLand when we started to reference. I hope it doesn't bother anyone it's just what I was sensing.

"Time goes on, on the "phile" and I think things are loosening up but what I don't know is why these guys seem to be so afraid to engage in listening.

We're about the easiest people in the world to listen with, so one would think "hey there's a brother let's jamm" but you can feel the resistance to do so.

If I were to stop by someones home we would be listening so what is it that makes these folks not want to be involved with each other in a listening way?

For an industry that should be about sharing, it sure seems like they are right there to be in on the talk but again very little on the actual event."

one of your members replied, and I hope they don't mind

"Because folks might hear something they don't agree with and have to eat there words.

Nobody these days wants to admit there wrong."

I honestly believe there is truth to this. I believe it really makes some mad that a simple system can beat up on a complicated one. I use to have people say "well if this sounds this good (after hearing it of course), I bet the high end striped would blow this away". But I tell them I never set out to pick the inexpensive components and if you look at the early days I had all the big brands, 5 high end stereo stores worth. I went after the music, and after doing a few shows with the big boys I got tired of systems that weren't measuring up, so I started using my own stuff, and others products that were more musical. I never set out to put anyone down, but boy did people react when I started showing up with systems that sounded incredible but cost very little.

here's another point

I don't care what someone tunes their system to, why would I? If they want to tune go for it, if they want to find one setting that's fine too. I'll tell you this though, the ones who choose a particular setting still blow the doors off of the over built systems. Don't have to believe me ask them.

Ask Droo, or sonic or Toledo, or anyone on TuneLand. If this were just about me that would be one thing, but a lot of people are making this move and it's growing daily, and it's going to keep growing cause people my friend are tired of having the hairs raise on the backs of their necks.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

While I may not go as far as Michaels with tuning, I do feel people should spend more time dialing in their systems and are giving up a lot of quality not spending time with this. TBH I move around a decent bit so it normally takes me 6 to 8 months or so before I finally settle on placement and changes for a room. Just takes a while to figure out what is missing (luckily my system is constant so it's just the room changing so I know what I'm looking for).

One point I heard Michael say so many times is how some hi-end equipment isn't up to people's expectations. For instance I'm still looking for a speaker to replace my PSB Synchrony Ones and was out demoing the New Marico S3 (which was truly phenomenal sound and one of the best speakers I've heard) but at a 22k price point I really think it should extend as low or lower in the bass region than my PSB a $5.5k speaker. For the kind of money these manufactures are charging you should be able to produce a full range speaker where the dealer isn't say well you can go for the next model up if you don't want a low frequency challenged speaker. At this price the speakers should be designed to perform regardless of where they sit. Now I'm not saying you couldn't buy the Magico's and be happy (in fact it is towards the top of the best speakers I have heard in this bracket and is truly phenomenal), but if you step back I don't think its a lot to ask for a truly full range speaker at these price.

I'm curious to see others impressions regarding this but I've found as you move into some of these high end companies there are noticeable compromises made every time you step down from the flagship. Not saying there can't be improvements, but let's be honest at 22k you shouldn't be missing whole octaves of music when other companies can achieve that lower octave at 25% of the price.

the market

I've seen this first hand so I don't think I'm stepping out here. The prices that have been made are based on the market. The one not so good thing that happened was the classes. I don't blame Stereophile for what they did (I think the ratings were neccessary for them) but some how the industry as a whole got out of balance and manufacturers started making products for what the market would bear instead of looking at value per sound. I also think the industry got so stuck on components that they didn't clearly teach methods of listening. That's hurt a lot of listeners who believe they can throw a system in a living room and it will magically work. That's a tough one.

designers were caught up in audiomania

When you take an audio designer and push them into making a product for a market like the audio market there's a problem. No designer is going to admit this, but most audio designers don't have that many designs up his or her sleeve. Ideas yes, tested true designs no. The market was saying make a few models and make them in these price ranges and with these looks, it wasn't the designer saying here's my baby, how do you like it. Things changed in the 90's. I've been to the production lines, I know believe me. High end products went from "audio" designs to fashion. Some of the product was made for looks, some for price and some for sound. If that makes some mad, I'm sorry don't take it up with me.

it can be the best

I believe most of the High End designers set out to make the perfect product. They laid things out and did their listening in their enviroment with their associated other products. They tailored their sound in their place and I have no doubt that these toys were beauties to behold. But this was with their ears, and their equipment, in their rooms, with their electric and all the other conditions specific to them. Then these pieces were put in chassis and bolted down for shipping. Anyone who tells you they built their components and they sounded better in the chassis, than when they were in proto stage is either lying straight to your face or they have a limited design.

here's the question I ended up dealing with

How can something made so specific and locked into someone elses conditions play the same at your place?

I've setup these systems all my life and they are not easy, not if you want to play a wide range of music and expect full range sound and a stage worth listening to.

You know, I knew when I came up here some were going to get bent. But is it really about me? I don't think so. I think it's about a general frustration that audiophiles have had for a long time. When I came up here I shared about recordings and the guy couldn't handle that I was getting good sound out of what he thought were bad recordings, he disappeared. Then as I started to talk more, some acted like they were going to talk about their sound, they didn't. Then there was the designer guy/thing that is weird beyond weird to me. And theories coming from people who are saying they can't play a wide range of music, and I can go on, but all this says to me is, there are systems that should be doing much more and they aren't. If I buy an M5 it better act like one. I buy a house, I better be able to live in it. I buy a stereo, it better be able to play my music and give me an entertaining stage, with all the bells and whistles the artist put on the recording.

We are audiphiles, when did we become content spending fortunes on things we can't get to do what we want? And why are we buying from designers who can't produce products that sound good "in our rooms as well as theirs".

This isn't a Michael problem, I have great sound and can listen to all my music the way I want.

I came here to share and help, and if some get bent maybe it's not me bending them. I think the bending was done before I came, and by me coming here with an answer and it being one that flies in the face because of all the money spent...well all I can say is sorry. The answer was always there, and all of the listeners were finding pieces and parts but the whole is that all recordings are different and stereos should be tunable so the end user can get the same sound the designer created at his place. I didn't make all the recordings different, and I didn't build the over built stuff.

But I am glad this thread was made, cause it shows me that we have a way to go.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Costin

I think that there are many listeners all over the world who are asking the same thing. How can I have my sound, and have it consistently? I feel the joy of all who get it right, and I feel the pain when it is not. I think all of us when we get to the core are thrilled for each other when we put on a piece of music and the magic happens. It's like the audio angels singing from sound heaven.

To answer the question, I first had to find out what was going on with systems, why is it so hard to get them to interface with the room and the other components. I have a pretty good handle on this now. It's obvious that we went too far in locking things in. Again not that any of these designs were bad, they are just not user friendly. I think most listeners after wanting to kill me for bringing it up will admit that their magical momments are hit and miss. This with my background makes perfect sense cause I know how different recordings are and how locked in components can be. As I said I feel very comfortable that I have uncovered most of these problems and why they are happening. I've had a faithful group of listeners who have been wonderful about exploring this with me.

here's what this comes down to

Remember when cars had roll up windows? You grab a handle and turn it? That's where tuning is at now. I have figured out how to get the handle working and the windows are going up and down. We can now tune systems successfully. The more tunable the system the better the results. I have designed tunable acoustical products that you can put up and they tell the room what to sound like. These have been out for years now, their adjustable and well reviewed by Home Theatre Magazine, Soundstage and maybe a few others, but I went off in my work in the studios and didn't follow through with really pushing them in high end. But the PZC's are there. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t70-rt-pzc-acoustical-treatment You put the allen in and tune your room. Again rolling up the windows but at least fixing things. I've designed the tunable speakers http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t72-mga-speakers . These speakers do amazing things, but back in the day the production companies didn't have the expertise to pull off what I was asking and you saw them get blown out at Audio Advisor. I went private with my small productions and kept a close eye on the continual development of making a tunable full range speaker. Again the reviews that did come out were very good, but along with the PZC's they needed to have the right attention to voicing. It's totally different from locking in the sound. You also adjust these products with the same allen tuning them to the amp and room. So there you have the room and the speakers, and as most know I've had tuning racks and now more advanced platorms and other tuning devices. All adjustable and all much easier to use than fixed tunes, which I also have. So we have the speakers, the acoustical treatment, the furniture and this goes all the way up to The Tunable Room. You can take a system and tune it up to go way past what has been done before, but as with the speakers and racks and acoustics taking equipment apart may be wonderful for the extreme tunee, but where does this leave the guy who is looking at this gorgeous stuff thinking "this guy is nuts if he thinks I'm going to torture my components". I get this as well, believe me I do. The last thing in the world I want to do is see high end spread out all over the place with it's gutts hanging out like an operation gone bad. Fact is simple products tune better than complicated ones. I didn't make this rule, I found it. I went through every component I could and found the ones that sounded the best stripped down. Others might find other components that they like better and we talk about them on the forum, but for the guy who wants to go much further than they have been able to the answers are there. I can't do anything about the heartbreak of a simple setup sounding better than a complicated one for those who spent the big bucks, hey I did too, remember 5 stores worth. What I can do though is design the first complete tunable system and if plans work out show it at the 2016 CES. I've been working on this and it's just about time to give the industry a system built like a musical instrument. We are talking computer but the first one will be a CD based two piece system (CD Integrated amp) that we plan on not only building but making available to the electronic component companies. I believe that this will be the beginning of a new era in not only High End Audio but other industries. I don't have any desire to give my sound and say listen to it or else, but instead have a vision for this industry that I think will save it. I think that designers will be able to incorporate tuning into their designs with a few simple moves which I have already done and it works like a charm. There is no reason you in the future will have to sit there and not be able to apply the masterful sonic signatures these guys have made. It's true they will need to come around to a different approach as far as chassis and circuit boards and transformers and the speaker builders will need to go from heavy mass to "tension" control (never thought of this one did you? LOL), Yes speakers can be designed with the same amount of pressure as thick cabinets through tension control instead of mass. As you guys like to say "been there done it" only we are saying "been there doing it".

So you see High End Audio can be much like what you guys have now only instead of one fixed sound you will have the ability to tune in every recording or, if you choose, any fixed flavor you wish, but you will no longer have to fight the system. You will be the master of your sound and you will be able to pick your favorite designer (like in the guitar world Gibson or Fender "tunable") with all their glory all the time.

the question of tuning

First off a tuned system is much easier to work with than a regular one. Secondly after the crank the window up stage there will be servo controlled or other mechanical devices implemented. High End Audio will range from the do it yourself tuning to the remote control type. Already in motion!

See, I'm not the dark side at all. I love this industry and will continue to do everything in my power to watch your dreams come true. No music should be left on the cutting room floor, and you deserve High End Audio to truly be High End Audio.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune