You are here

Log in or register to post comments
Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Funny??

"One of the nice things about being an Audio columnist is that I can not only strongly encourage but also grant full diplomatic immunity to any reader of this magazine who suddently lunges forward and violently karate-kicks the next audiocreep who repeats that age-old hi-fi lie about how only people who regularly attend live music events can accurately judge the sound of audio gear.

"I have been hearing the elitist line ever since I got into this hobby, and it's time to put it to rest once and for all. Because it's just plain wrong. If it weren't, then all the reviewers in the high end who get up on their hind legs about how they regularly 'condition' their ears with live music would be at the top of their game, and the fact of the matter is most of these guys are clowns. Earnest, yes, but a clown can be earnest, too. He's just got to paint a frown on his month instead of a smile and carry a wilted, oversize prop daisy in a cracked pot (at least according to some carnies I run with).

"The fact is, simply exposing yourself to live music on a regular basis does not enhance your listening ability one iota......."

"Front Row" by Corey Greenberg, Audio, August 1999

"As we wind up this millenium,we've come to a point in the half century history of hi-fi where most reviewers are so much dumber than the vast majority of their readers that their opinions are actually taken to mean the opposite of what the're supposed to. So instead of reading hi-fi reviews nowadays,we mostly decode them.

"Like it or not, we're living in the era of the 'Bizarro Reviews'. The term takes its name from the Bizarro World, a time-warp zone in the Superman comic books where everything is bass-ackwards: Bizarro dogs meow while Bizarro cats bark, Bizarro rain falls upward and Roberto Benigni wins the Academy Award for Best Actor. 'Me am so happy!' a sad-faced denizen of the Bizarro World will pout, displaying not only the opposite meaning af many high end reviews these days but also their unique prose style...."

"Auricle" by Corey Greenberg June 1999

Buddha
Buddha's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 9 months ago
Joined: Sep 8 2005 - 10:24am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Yeah, listening to live music is so elitist.

I guess not listening to live music would explain some people's fondness for CD, however.

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

You could at least appreciate the extraordiray writing hability, regardless. This generation of audiophiles needs people they can connect to. They are not as self deprecated, funny and noisy as some (but not all) of the generation before them but they will need their gurus and a few writers (and dealers..) they can connect to, Bizarro as they may be.

Monty
Monty's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 16 2005 - 6:55pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

CG was a hoot. He enjoyed getting under people's skin...especially...well, the old guard of audio perfection. It's too damn bad that he let himself be corrupted because he was one hell of a fun read. But, you know what? I think his reviews were 100% on the level as far as what he really thought of a product. CG places a very, very high bar for amplifiers (as do I) that he can live with and I always read his reviews knowing that we valued the same characteristics in the sound we liked. There wasn't any of that nagging ambiguity when you know a reviewer has a completely different sonic hiarachy than you do.

CG once remarked in a round-table discussion something that defines the the two camps in as much as how they each approach the merits of a components reproduction worth when he said to the effect that how a component reproduces amplified sound that is true to the original is just as important as how a component reproduces unamplified sound. I don't think JGH ever adopted that standard, nor do I think many reviewers have. Knowing which camp a reviewer falls into is important to me.

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
Yeah, listening to live music is so elitist.

I guess not listening to live music would explain some people's fondness for CD, however.

As I have posted before, live is not always better...for every well engineered polite audience event I have been to I have been to a half dozen where the engineer was on drugs, the sound WAY too loud and the audience a constant distraction..

Live can and should be better, but often studio recordings simply produce more music and less background and engineering muddle.

Poor Audiophile
Poor Audiophile's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 14 2006 - 7:35pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
CG was a hoot. He enjoyed getting under people's skin...especially...well, the old guard of audio perfection. It's too damn bad that he let himself be corrupted because he was one hell of a fun read.

Corrupted? So what happened to him? I first learned of DVD from him(a review in Home Theatre I think)and also, I enjoyed his review of the NHT Super Zeros(1994?) which I still use. He also wrote for S.R. when I was reading that.

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
Corrupted? So what happened to him? I first learned of DVD from him(a review in Home Theatre I think)and also, I enjoyed his review of the NHT Super Zeros(1994?) which I still use. He also wrote for S.R. when I was reading that.

Corey had a superb talent both as a writer and a listener. When I first encountered him, in 1989, he was the house engineer at a radio station in Austin, TX. He wrote for Stereophile from 1990 through 1994, after which he joined Home Theater Technology, the predecessor to Home Theater magazine. He flared brightly there, then crashed and burned in spectacular fashion, trashing, I am told, the magazine's viewing room in the process. He had a column in Stereo Review for a while and promoted the magazine on speaking tours before becoming the editor of Audio magazine for its final 18 months.

After the Today Show's gadget guru was fired for cocaine abuse, Corey took over that gig, and did very well at it, until it was discovered that he was taking kickbacks from companies to promote their products on the TV show.

You can still find his writings at http://shaveblog.com/ .

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Well, you won't find this masterpiece there:

"One day recently -just yesterday, come to think -after my morning fog lifted, I propped into my sheets three times so crazy hard, so rat-tat-tat, the rest of that day, even just thinking about it gave me a wood effect again! But hot damm! I could not satisfy myself! Talk about, old and in the way. Been to Cum City. Dun that stuff. Elated... Depleted... Just like I felt for a whole friggin' week after auditioning the new he-man JISM 10cc from Cojones Labs.

"Boyos, Girlos, lemme tell ya, ballin' is OK, OK -but it takes an eternity to recover a healty interest in the natural thang, I mean live music, after having the sound of a royal-size amp like this shoved up yer ears..."

Corey Greenberg

Positive Feedback organized a "Corey Greenberg Write-Alike Contest"...
Decision of the judges were arbitrary, but final. Residents of Texas were disqualified... they are too funny already.

Those were other times.

Poor Audiophile
Poor Audiophile's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 14 2006 - 7:35pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Thanks John!
Too bad.

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

It can be so bad that: as a company that has our Goo Systems product out there..we have been approached by many of the major TV shows and internet blog/show/site/etc, for coverage of our product.

The odd one flat out stated that they want a payout before anything happens. One asked for over $200k up front. I think it was $250k they wanted. This was to cover the production of the 1/2 hour show, which at that point, would have been an infomercial disguised as a show. What we would have gained out of it, would have been about 150 plays of the 1/2 hour show on a major network in specific prime time slots. That is pretty darned cheap, actually! incredibly so! What the show would have gained, was free production, and then the use of the actual advertising slots and their associated revenue.

And they are approaching us!

However, these situations are the exceptions, in my experience. We,at the company, as a group, said no. It felt all wrong. If we had done it, it would have been hailed as a marketing coup. 'Gee, look at the exposure you guys are getting!', everyone would have said. But I do like my sleep at night, so I voted no.

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Some of the audio industry practices such as long term equipment "loans" to reviewers, loans never repaid, equipment never returned, are flat out kickbacks.

It has been said that Stereophile used the Recommended Components List to lure advertising and that the list is a "total fraud".

"It reflects, so simply and appropriately, the end result of their compromised editorial policy; the fruiless and impossible task of pleasing numerous manufacturers by stating to each and every one that their component is "the best attainable".
Arthur Salvatore

"Micheal Fremer and Andy Payor (Rockport Technologies) have had an ongoing "relashionship" for many years. Just compare Mr Payor's writing and litterature to Fremer's writing on the same subjects. They are "closer than two coats of paint". Be cautious of Fremer's reviews of any turntable ot tonearm that is competitive, in any manner, with Rockport designs. The same warning goes for any other component built or marketed by Andy Payor that is reviewed by Michael Fremer."
Reviewing the Reviewers
Arthur Salvatore

Read about Stereophile's "Dangerous" June 2009 issue:
www.high-endaudio.com

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

It's not that simple Grosse...

For example, the manufacturers don't want the sample back.

They want the device in the reviewer's hands. That way that they can look people in the eye and say, "Hey, so-and-so has our gear!"

Which is how you end up with Mikey complaining in the Tara Zero review about having a closet load of cables he doesn't want. As a reviewer, he can't sell them. Some of us may have heard of a story about that sort of situation recently...

Note to Stephen: Get over to Mikey's, he's got a closet full of cables! Knock yerself out! (Stephen works for Stereophile, so that one is kosher, in it's own strange way - at least in my book. heh heh)

The other point is that differing people like the sounds of different gear, there is -generally- no single piece of gear that is best for all situations and all systems. Art represents one particular design and sonic avenue of musical enjoyment and group of considerations and Wes Phillips represents a slightly different orientation. When it comes to 'recommended components', and 'gear of the year', then you see the gear that has a more universal appeal or capacity to describe a difference that heads in a generally agreed direction. Votes are tallied. Then the components announced. Recommended components specifically makes mention of system matching needing to be done.

So don't get me wrong, I have read Arthur's site over the years and I've been in his store in Toronto when he owned it. Arthur represents a slight myopic view, and maybe he feels that it is necessary to do things that way to get to where he is headed. I don't know. That is one voice in the crowd, which is the whole point of "Recommended components"' Specific caveat at the start of that section, which goes something like: "Not all gear is created equal and not all gear is suited for all situations. This is a list of some of the gear you might consider looking at, gear that we found may provide what you desire, and NO we have not tested everything. Who could??"

Arthur is myopic as he is an END USER, who is trying to create a specific sound or balance of attributes, and other people might do it differently, with different gear and different emphasis. If you read Arthur's website it tells you flat out that he is of a nature where he wanted the best, in a specific way and direction, and this, almost for the life of his store. So when you went into his store the gear sold would have a specific direction and flavor, according to how Arthur wanted things to sound. DNM and MFA come to mind as two things that Arthur thought highly of- back in the day. He was a dealer for both, and if you find a older DNM or an MFA piece these days in the Toronto area, it is likely that Arthur sold it.

As for Mike Fremer being specifically oriented to one manufacturer, I don't think that is even remotely true. Not for a second. Do you actually read the magazine, Grosse? And if he's tied to just one manufacturer, Lord, let it be us, thanks and pass the potatoes - now that I can afford them.

Another example, is that when we just stared our production of cables, I sent a set to a VERY well known and respected audio designer. Before I sent the cables to him I swore, in print to him (And he did not ask, I stated it flat out-so the we would be clear with one another) that I would not use his possession of our cables as a marketing opportunity. "So-and-so has our cables!" Nope - can't go there. It was a gift for being an awesome dude. I can't take a guy who designs gear and then mislead people that he is USING our cable with his designs, that creates a serious problem for him. He has the cable in his possession, and that is all I know. For all I know he could be using it to tie the lid down on his compost to keep the raccoons out. Save the twine for something more deserving.

As I was explaining to a guy who considered being our distributor..and I grabbed him by the lapel and the arm and looked him in the eye and told him, "The guys who succeed in this business are the ones who never slip up, not even once, for 20 years straight. Those are the guys who make it". Integrity in the business is everything. Well, not quite but is important, to me at the least.

I own flea sized tube amps and amplifiers you can almost literally go welding with. I love them all, for what each of them do best. My daily fare right now is a modified XXXX integrated amplifier, a fully balanced design. Or I could hook up....whatever. I'll do strange things like a highly modified passive preamp going into a pure DC capable 300+ wpc power amp, that has a copper bar for a fuse and zero protection - Just brute force and an incredibly itchy trigger finger. That's for Reggae and such, obviously....

Arthur is seemingly taking Mikey to task for having such a preference. It saddens me that Arthur is seemingly getting worse on that front. He should understand that there is not just a specific green uniform marching up and down the square, and specifically...that this is not what Mike was saying in the review. AFAIK, Mikey was merely stating his preferences and experiences, and I for one, did not take it beyond that, in my mind. It almost appears as if Arthur is taking a very literal interpretation of what Mikey wrote and he is taking it way, way too far. As Jn2 accused me of in this other thread on psychic lava lamps, maybe Arthur should cut back on the coffee. Maybe Arthur should step back a bit. The magazine is supposed to be informative and also...entertaining...and Arthur should see it in that light, as it is - just that.

Is this where I get busted with 7 mistresses?

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Maybe they want you to keep some low end cables but they don't want $60,000 speakers back? There is a difference between a manufacturer dealing with a retailer and dealing with printed magazines that can write a good review.

I can remember only twice when Stereophile had really negative reviews and both times they lost the advertising after getting angry letters from both manufacturers. One for Velodyne when they came out with a line of speakers many years ago, the second time for a Gryphon Amplifier.

Negative review = No advertising

One way or the other they are selling themselves to the manufacturers, leading to those "bizarro" reviews described by Corey Greenberg that have to be decoded and read between the lines. Why do you think that TAS, for a long time, refused to take advertising?

As for Arthur I think he performs much needed comparative reviews. Why not reviewing the reviewers? It is very instructive. You can't count on Stereophile for doing that.

www.high-endaudio.com

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Well, here in this thread, we have the reviewers and magazines being hammered for apparently pandering to manufacturers...and over in another thread there is the hammering of the magazine for giving a bad review.

Make up your freaking minds, people!

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

and every time it gives you a plug

anyway you have botched reviews, sometimes quickies, sometimes long and windy but always ambiguous in their conclusions and non comparative not to hurt the feelings of the manufacturers, leaving us scratching our heads, and then you have the negative reviews which are non existent today

absolutepitch
absolutepitch's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jul 9 2006 - 8:58pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
... Why do you think that TAS, for a long time, refused to take advertising? ...

I seem to recall that Stereophile also did not take advertising quite a while back. Am I mistaken about this?

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:
... Why do you think that TAS, for a long time, refused to take advertising? ...

I seem to recall that Stereophile also did not take advertising quite a while back. Am I mistaken about this?

Neither magazine took advertising at the time of their launches, but both eventually did so, given that the economics of subscriber-supported publications are broken.

I'll have to look through my TAS back issues to be sure, but I believe TAS stated publishing ads around issue 10. Stereophile started pubishing dealer ads in 1972 and manufacturer ads in 1976 - see http://www.stereophile.com//asweseeit/483/ . (Note, BTW, that the date of this article at the top of the page is incorrect; our current Content Management System doesn't recognize dates before 1979.)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
Well, here in this thread, we have the reviewers and magazines being hammered for apparently pandering to manufacturers...and over in another thread there is the hammering of the magazine for giving a bad review.

Make up your freaking minds, people!

While I do a lot of complaining on these forums I have never thought the writers were in bed with any specific manufacturer. I am far more concerned with the special deals and business tax breaks that turn very expensive gear in the real world into 'budget' or 'moderate priced' in the review...That aside, I see little pandering to advertisers.

Lick-T
Lick-T's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: May 14 2006 - 8:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
While I do a lot of complaining on these forums I have never thought the writers were in bed with any specific manufacturer.

We're in bed with ALL of them!

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

The one thing that Gordon really missed was the review of the Meridian 565:

Meridian surround sound processor review by Corey Greenberg
Audio, November 1999

"What's with the titty twisters in movies lately? After being pleasantly surprised by "The Wedding Singer", I rented Adam Sandler's The Waterboy and was treated to the sight of a probably Royal Shakespeare Company trained actor old enough to be Sandler's father suddendly yanking up his shirt at the end of the movie and blistfully adjusting his bass and treeble controls. Then I'm in the theater to see Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me, and all of a sudden it's Mike Myers in a fat-guy suit bellowing "I'm dead sexy!" in a Scotticsh accent as he pincers his fatted dugs.

"Okay, let's run down the checklist. Semen as hair gel, funny. Bald midget biting another man's privates, funny. But nipple twisting? Which Friar's Club meeting did i miss where Sid Caesar banged the gavel on this one?

"Don't get me wrong, the titty twister has its place. As a means of adolescent torture it's hallowed maneuver, full equal to anything Torquemada ever thought up. Why, if I myself were tied up and subjected to said treatment till I revealed the name of the best sounding surround sound processor I've heard,I'd yelp "The Meridian 565! in a heartbeat, joined at the hip to its companion 562V audio/video controller, the 565 is pure bliss...."

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:
While I do a lot of complaining on these forums I have never thought the writers were in bed with any specific manufacturer.

We're in bed with ALL of them!

Mathematically speaking, as positive infinity is indistinguishable from negative infinity, being in bed with all manufacturers is equivalent to being in bed with none of them. Quod erat demonstrandum, res ipso loquitur, and in pluribus unum.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

blackfly
blackfly's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 2 2008 - 4:30pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

JA: positive infinity is indistinguishable from negative infinity? What university did you go to? Although infinity is "undefinable" or "unquantifinable" one is in one direction (positive X) and the other in the direct opposite (negative X). Mathematically, you could not be more wrong.

Scott Wheeler
Scott Wheeler's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 3 2005 - 7:47pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
While I do a lot of complaining on these forums I have never thought the writers were in bed with any specific manufacturer.

We're in bed with ALL of them!

Mathematically speaking, as positive infinity is indistinguishable from negative infinity, being in bed with all manufacturers is equivalent to being in bed with none of them. Quod erat demonstrandum, res ipso loquitur, and in pluribus unum.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Wasn't the old Stereo review in effect in bed with all of them in that there was never a negative review? Wasn't that the main beef with Stereo Review?

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
JA: positive infinity is indistinguishable from negative infinity? What university did you go to?

To judge by some posters' reactions to my writings, the School of Hard Knocks.


Quote:
Although infinity is "undefinable" or "unquantifinable" one is in one direction (positive X) and the other in the direct opposite (negative X). Mathematically, you could not be more wrong.

I guess my attempt to inject some humor into this thread failed :-(

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
While I do a lot of complaining on these forums I have never thought the writers were in bed with any specific manufacturer.

We're in bed with ALL of them!

Mathematically speaking, as positive infinity is indistinguishable from negative infinity, being in bed with all manufacturers is equivalent to being in bed with none of them. Quod erat demonstrandum, res ipso loquitur, and in pluribus unum.

I had thought it clear that both Erick and I were joshing.


Quote:
Wasn't the old Stereo Review in effect in bed with all of them in that there was never a negative review? Wasn't that the main beef with Stereo Review?

My problem with Stereo Review was that according to the public admission of the long-term technical editor Larry Klein, they would either spike, ie, abort reviews that had any significant negative content or rewrite the review's conclusion after discussion with the respective manufacturer to eliminate the negative aspects. (Larry admitted this at a workshop on audio reviewing at an AES Conference in 1990.) The magazine was thus putting its advertisers' interests ahead of its readers.

By contrast, Stereophile's policy is to publish a review regardless of the outcome. Our review are mostly positive because we try to pick products that seem worth investing our time and resources in, but when that turns out not to be the case, we still say what we found.

Interestingly, as you can see from the current Bryston and Totem threads on this and other forums, this upsets some readers almost as much as it does the manufacturers.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Regarding positive vs negative infinity:

One must remember that Einstein flat out said that 'I could have got the sign wrong', meaning that gravity could be a push and not a pull.

There is a considerable amount of evidence to show that this is correct. Specifically, the fudge factors used in attempts to explain the positions of the planets. If Einstein said that it is a pull, then the planets cannot stay in their orbits, they fly apart from one another unless one applies the self created fudge factors so the math 'somehow' -works.

If the sign is reversed and gravity is a push, then the differential is there in the basic formulations to hold the solar system together. The other key point is that the universe is active and electric, not static. Then it all works and the vast majority of the fudge factors utilized in physics can be tossed for being the tosser crap that they are. Of course you have to go back to Maxwell's full equations to 'get' that point... the next sad point being that well over 99.99% of physicists and similar are not aware that they can't work in temporal or molecular levels (quantum finally squares up with Newtonian) due to this loss of Maxwell's full works.

Infinity intrinsically does not have any polarity as all conditions apply infinitely. therefore any polarity applies at a base level, the differentials being the key. Human understanding becomes the failure point, not the potentials of mathematical formulation, for humans must devise a mathematical path, as math does not define reality -humans do. Humans define math, and it can go anywhere, due to the attempt to take math to infinity. Therefore the descriptor of math can go anywhere, if we can wrap our heads around it. Since the formulation (mathematical creation and extraction, etc) exists in human hands and we are not infinitely clear -- then the math can, and does, -fail.

Math needs be seen for what it is, in most cases - it is an attempt to throw spaghetti at the fridge and see if it sticks. If it does, then it is done, it is ready to consume, if not, it falls to the ground, same as anything else. But always remember that it may change at any given moment.

To clarify, we use math, which is fine..to make attempts to describe physicality and there is no guarantee of any kind that our mathematical formulations are the actual descriptor for the reality we 'see' --it may change at any moment. Therefore, there is an inherent consideration that the math may fail at any moment, any moment of greater understanding by the given 'human vehicle' in the act of 'realization'.

Thus, one cannot call any mathematical formulation in physics a LAW, ever, this is the height of dogmatic religion which is inherently offensive and is clearly a moment of the fearful animal within attempting to control the environment for a sense of self security.

Mathematicians and scientists need to be aware that the very ground they stand on is based in philosophy, philosophy that is the core necessity or requirement to be able to extrapolate further than they now stand, and that this lack of mental clarity in the psychological makeup of the individual is the point that holds them back from a more expanded knowledge and/or discovery.

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

.. The other key point is that the universe is active and electric, not static...

That is why I am against marriage unless one can have at least four wifes. The universe is fluid and moving and we are part of it. We are leaves, creatures of the wind. We don't cling to a tree for long.

Monty
Monty's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 16 2005 - 6:55pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Realizing you were wrong means you just learned something. Being able to admit you were wrong ain't all that bad if you keep your ego in check.

Something has happened slowly, over time that has infected our culture of people willing to be wrong out of fear of getting blamed that has limited ingenuity on a grand scale. It's a damn shame. One of the qualities I admire most in people is a willingness to jump in with both feet and learn something...even if it means humiliation.

fkrausz
fkrausz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 3 days ago
Joined: Feb 27 2007 - 1:08pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Re reviewers who have long-term loaner samples of pricey gear as their references: is it my imagination, or are such reviewers more inclined to say that "the Foobar Excelsior Cartridge is the <expensive loaner amp> of cartridges," or that "the Semicheap Speaker may not be the <expensive loaner speaker>, but it comes frightfully close." Stereophile has little or none of that crap, thank goodness and JA.

Scott Wheeler
Scott Wheeler's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 3 2005 - 7:47pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
While I do a lot of complaining on these forums I have never thought the writers were in bed with any specific manufacturer.

We're in bed with ALL of them!

Mathematically speaking, as positive infinity is indistinguishable from negative infinity, being in bed with all manufacturers is equivalent to being in bed with none of them. Quod erat demonstrandum, res ipso loquitur, and in pluribus unum.

I had thought it clear that both Erick and I were joshing.


Quote:
Wasn't the old Stereo Review in effect in bed with all of them in that there was never a negative review? Wasn't that the main beef with Stereo Review?

My problem with Stereo Review was that according to the public admission of the long-term technical editor Larry Klein, they would either spike, ie, abort reviews that had any significant negative content or rewrite the review's conclusion after discussion with the respective manufacturer to eliminate the negative aspects. (Larry admitted this at a workshop on audio reviewing at an AES Conference in 1990.) The magazine was thus putting its advertisers' interests ahead of its readers.

By contrast, Stereophile's policy is to publish a review regardless of the outcome. Our review are mostly positive because we try to pick products that seem worth investing our time and resources in, but when that turns out not to be the case, we still say what we found.

Interestingly, as you can see from the current Bryston and Totem threads on this and other forums, this upsets some readers almost as much as it does the manufacturers.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

The mistake is for any audiophile to have an emotional stake in a published review. The utility of reviews IMO is for factual information and an opinion that may inspire an audition of something that may have been otherwise overlooked. If one is looking for validation of the choices they already made.... feelings are bound to be hurt.

Poor Audiophile
Poor Audiophile's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 14 2006 - 7:35pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
While I do a lot of complaining on these forums I have never thought the writers were in bed with any specific manufacturer.

We're in bed with ALL of them!

Mathematically speaking, as positive infinity is indistinguishable from negative infinity, being in bed with all manufacturers is equivalent to being in bed with none of them. Quod erat demonstrandum, res ipso loquitur, and in pluribus unum.

I had thought it clear that both Erick and I were joshing.


Quote:
Wasn't the old Stereo Review in effect in bed with all of them in that there was never a negative review? Wasn't that the main beef with Stereo Review?

My problem with Stereo Review was that according to the public admission of the long-term technical editor Larry Klein, they would either spike, ie, abort reviews that had any significant negative content or rewrite the review's conclusion after discussion with the respective manufacturer to eliminate the negative aspects. (Larry admitted this at a workshop on audio reviewing at an AES Conference in 1990.) The magazine was thus putting its advertisers' interests ahead of its readers.

By contrast, Stereophile's policy is to publish a review regardless of the outcome. Our review are mostly positive because we try to pick products that seem worth investing our time and resources in, but when that turns out not to be the case, we still say what we found.

Interestingly, as you can see from the current Bryston and Totem threads on this and other forums, this upsets some readers almost as much as it does the manufacturers.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Ah yes, good ole Larry Klein. As a former long time subscriber to that rag, I'm disappointed. However, I did learn much from them. Now I'm glad to be a subscriber to Stereophile!

Poor Audiophile
Poor Audiophile's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 14 2006 - 7:35pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

"The mistake is for any audiophile to have an emotional stake in a published review. The utility of reviews IMO is for factual information and an opinion that may inspire an audition of something that may have been otherwise overlooked. If one is looking for validation of the choices they already made.... feelings are bound to be hurt."

Very good point!!

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

..By contrast, Stereophile's policy is to publish a review regardless of the outcome. Our review are mostly positive because we try to pick products that seem worth investing our time and resources in, but when that turns out not to be the case, we still say what we found...

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

No you don't. You temporize. You wait for the next incarnation to show up to tell us how much better it is than the one who preceded it, etc. You have a bag full of tricks.
All those good reviews for Wilson??

tomjtx
tomjtx's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 6 months ago
Joined: Nov 12 2006 - 2:53pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:

..By contrast, Stereophile's policy is to publish a review regardless of the outcome. Our review are mostly positive because we try to pick products that seem worth investing our time and resources in, but when that turns out not to be the case, we still say what we found...

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

No you don't. You temporize. You wait for the next incarnation to show up to tell us how much better it is than the one who preceded it, etc. You have a bag full of tricks.
All those good reviews for Wilson??

It could be that they think Wilson is a very good speaker and I would agree

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:
By contrast, Stereophile's policy is to publish a review regardless of the outcome. Our review are mostly positive because we try to pick products that seem worth investing our time and resources in, but when that turns out not to be the case, we still say what we found...

No you don't.

Forgive me for knowing more about what we do than some anonymous Internet troll.


Quote:
You temporize. You wait for the next incarnation to show up to tell us how much better it is than the one who preceded it, etc. You have a bag full of tricks.

In your opinion, of course, which is not the same as fact.


Quote:
All those good reviews for Wilson??

Deservedly so.

Happy New Year

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

They are not that good. You always had better speakers than Wilson.
When B&W came out with their new Nautilus line, Wilson was overnight obsolete, far behind.
Stereophile never said so of course.
They temporized, gave them time to come up with an updated series.
And they do that over and over.
You'll just never read anything of actuality and bad at the same time about Wilson. All the reviewers are on long term "loans" with Wilson.
On some forums you can't say anything negative about Wilson without being deleted.

tomjtx
tomjtx's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 6 months ago
Joined: Nov 12 2006 - 2:53pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
They are not that good. You always had better speakers than Wilson.
When B&W came out with their new Nautilus line, Wilson was overnight obsolete, far behind.
Stereophile never said so of course.
They temporized, gave them time to come up with an updated series.
And they do that over and over.
You'll just never read anything of actuality and bad at the same time about Wilson. All the reviewers are on long term "loans" with Wilson.
On some forums you can't say anything negative about Wilson without being deleted.

As a Watt/Puppy owner I obviously disagree.

But you are French, your food and wine have been outclassed by most other countries at this point , kind of like what you are saying about Wilson.

Your only good cuisine came from the Vascos who are far more Spanish than French.
California wines now routinely beat french wines.
Face it, you come from a failed country with a failed culture , no wonder you have bad taste in speakers
The only thing you have left is your arrogance.

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Except for Cabernet I beg to desagree with you.

Like any Michelin educated Frenchman I'd drive fourty miles or more if necessary to have a good meal. I came to america after doing all the three stars in France, and nothing else to do, and I ended up here going to french owned restaurants. They just can't be beat!

Here in Chicago I recommend L M
www.lmrestaurant.com

I buy all my patisseries at Vanille

www.vanillepatisserie.com
The place is small and understated but what they do is out of this world! I go there every morning like if I would still live in Paris to buy pains au chocolat and pains aux raisins. Can't stand those medieval meals you call breakfast you have in the morning.
Their desert cakes are unbelievable!
Those who care can have a turntable cake. Hit cakes, special occasions.
They'll make a CD player cake for those who don't like turntables.

And of course they had Buche de Noel. They have Galette des Rois as well.

Editor
Editor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 8:56am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
When B&W came out with their new Nautilus line, Wilson was overnight obsolete, far behind.

In your opinion, and as I have said before, your opinion does not have the status of fact.


Quote:
Stereophile never said so of course.

We did indeed give a diamond-tweeter Nautilus a very positive review. And "of course"? You have previously and incorrectly stated on this forum that our reviews are influenced by advertising, but you should note that Wilson hasn't been an advertiser in Stereophile for a while now.


Quote:
All the reviewers are on long term "loans" with Wilson.

Ths is not correct with regard to Stereophile's reviewers any more wth Wilson than it is with any other brand. The two Stereophile writers who have used Wilson speakers as a long-term reference - Michael Fremer first with the MAXX2 then the MAXX3 , and Brian Damkroger with the Sophia 2 - purchased their samples.


Quote:
On some forums you can't say anything negative about Wilson without being deleted.

Obviously that isn't the case here.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

An opinion is what it is, an opinion. So is the "opinion" of a Stereophile's reviewer. I stated my opinion. My opinion was shared by many at the time and printed somewhere in a magazine.

Wilson is very subtle about advertising. They do advertising of the kind of Moet & Chandon at Formula 1 racing events. Throwing Moet Champagne on the head of formula 1 Champions. Instead of that they throw Maxx III on the heads of the reviewers. Heavy discounts and giving advantageous in house credit terms to reviewers who in turn are talking favorably about a piece of equipment for years to come. It is like a celebrity paid for wearing a Rolex -and getting a Rolex at a discount I presume. "Debts" are forgiven for good behaviour, for talking favorably and endlessy about a product. There is conflict.

I think Wilson gets away with a lot of things in the audio press. They do get special treatment regardless of the quality of their speakers. Same thing happened with Dunleavy for a while. You just can't criticize a company that gives you a personal loan, be financial or material. At the minimum they buy your silence and this is what I am talking about temporizing.

Actually one of the reason that I never liked Wilson is the vulgarity of their indirect and direct advertising, branding their speakers like the Ferrari that David Wilson drives. They get all the gogos, all the wrong "audiophiles" with 400 CD collections and in most cases no vinyl. They cater to the Rolex crowd, the show off, the owners of 700 watts amplifiers which all sound bad, the cook, the dentist driving showy cars, not the Breguet, the tube lovers.

audx
audx's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 5 months ago
Joined: Nov 27 2009 - 12:32pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Perhaps Stereophile should start offering a monthly centerfold depicting a reviewer posed with a favorite component in bed.

It is a silly point.

Readers are going to either audition components or not. If they do then they'll come to a conclusion as to what they like.

And whether they agree with what they read or not.

I salute JA and others who continually endure slurs of character and practice.

Happy New Year and may Stereophile have a prosperous 2010!

Poor Audiophile
Poor Audiophile's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 14 2006 - 7:35pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

What he said!!
If the mag is so bad, why read it?

Scott Wheeler
Scott Wheeler's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 3 2005 - 7:47pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
An opinion is what it is, an opinion. So is the "opinion" of a Stereophile's reviewer. I stated my opinion. My opinion was shared by many at the time and printed somewhere in a magazine.

Wilson is very subtle about advertising. They do advertising of the kind of Moet & Chandon at Formula 1 racing events. Throwing Moet Champagne on the head of formula 1 Champions. Instead of that they throw Maxx III on the heads of the reviewers. Heavy discounts and giving advantageous in house credit terms to reviewers who in turn are talking favorably about a piece of equipment for years to come. It is like a celebrity paid for wearing a Rolex -and getting a Rolex at a discount I presume. "Debts" are forgiven for good behaviour, for talking favorably and endlessy about a product. There is conflict.

I think Wilson gets away with a lot of things in the audio press. They do get special treatment regardless of the quality of their speakers. Same thing happened with Dunleavy for a while. You just can't criticize a company that gives you a personal loan, be financial or material. At the minimum they buy your silence and this is what I am talking about temporizing.

Actually one of the reason that I never liked Wilson is the vulgarity of their indirect and direct advertising, branding their speakers like the Ferrari that David Wilson drives. They get all the gogos, all the wrong "audiophiles" with 400 CD collections and in most cases no vinyl. They cater to the Rolex crowd, the show off, the owners of 700 watts amplifiers which all sound bad, the cook, the dentist driving showy cars, not the Breguet, the tube lovers.

I completely agree and must say that it runs much deeper than this. Dave Wilson is from a very powerful family with ties that run back to the knights Templar. It's a not so well known fact that JA and just about every other audio reviewer are all free masons and there was a pact made in between the knights Templar and the free masons in the 16th century that they would support each other in audio when it would finally be invented in the late nineteenth century. Besides which I have it from a reliable source that Dave Wilson was the second shooter on the grassy knowl and JA was his get away driver. And lets not overlook the fact that Wilson Audio has an unfair advantage with their access to alien technology through their government ties. Michael Fremer has been overseeing the access to alien technologies so of course Wilson got first dibs. What really pisses me off is these guys all get to see Elvis play live in his secret hide out. But the word on the street is that his voice is shot so there is some justice in the end.

RGibran
RGibran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 6 days ago
Joined: Oct 11 2005 - 5:50pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

It all would be funnier if KBK had told it but heah...nice try.

KBK
KBK's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 30 2007 - 12:30pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
It all would be funnier if KBK had told it but heah...nice try.

I would have carried it better than that. Although, that was a good one, Scott. Remember, in the Queen's English...

I've always found myself defending David on forums, defending the right of his product and way of doing things to 'exist' against all those who can't afford them or have never heard them, or just have prejudice or bias for whatever given reason, real or imaginary.

We have been developing speakers for ,oh, 17 years now without releasing a product, and the speakers are quite technologically advanced. I use those, and don't use anyone else's speakers, including David's.

But I won't sit there and see him bashed for no reason. So I jump in and defend his products and his company.

I see people having the right to bash him, or anyone else for that matter, and I see myself having the right to defend anyone or any product whom I may desire to. At the same time I must now -as a so-called manufacturer (no longer just 'Joe Public')- have some sense of decorum and not bring any controversy or negativity to the given company or person I may decide to defend. Thrown crap can splash all over the dang place.

Scott Wheeler
Scott Wheeler's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 3 2005 - 7:47pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:

Quote:
It all would be funnier if KBK had told it but heah...nice try.

I would have carried it better than that. Although, that was a good one, Scott. Remember, in the Queen's English...

I've always found myself defending David on forums, defending the right of his product and way of doing things to 'exist' against all those who can't afford them or have never heard them, or just have prejudice or bias for whatever given reason, real or imaginary.

We have been developing speakers for ,oh, 17 years now without releasing a product, and the speakers are quite technologically advanced. I use those, and don't use anyone else's speakers, including David's.

But I won't sit there and see him bashed for no reason. So I jump in and defend his products and his company.

I see people having the right to bash him, or anyone else for that matter, and I see myself having the right to defend anyone or any product whom I may desire to. At the same time I must now -as a so-called manufacturer (no longer just 'Joe Public')- have some sense of decorum and not bring any controversy or negativity to the given company or person I may decide to defend. Thrown crap can splash all over the dang place.

The queen's English? I'm a valley dude doing conspiracy theory improv late at night and you want the Queen's English? Jeez it was a first draft at best. Besides, I'm a visuals guy. I don't do writing good.

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Help me someone

I can't find one of Corey Greenberg best review
It started like that:
"When you are bore to death or suicidal have you ever slip into a pantyhose? It feeels soo goood!
etc

Grosse Fatigue
Grosse Fatigue's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Nov 22 2007 - 7:04pm
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

More publicity for Wilson on this web site

Can we know how much Art Dubley paid for his Sophia

And please don't tell us that it is not relevant, that it is not our business

Wilson litterally subsidise those reviews
much like Dunleavy was doing

www.high-endaudio.com

Orb
Orb's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: May 28 2009 - 12:51am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

The irony is the author on that site shows such a high level of bias and emotion that he is meant to be accusing JA of.
Just curious you do see the author's bias and manipulation of arguments on that site?

Thanks
Orb

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 11 months ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu


Quote:
Can we know how much Art Dubley paid for his Sophia

At the standard industry accommodation rate I imagine. Members of the industry generally offer each other the chance to purchase products. Typically they are asked to use them personally and to not resell them for a year. No biggie, standard stuff.

As most (all?) in the industry provide this no one is getting an advantage over anyone else.

I am jealous however of my friends in the industry; they can get speakers and other items much cheaper. OTOH, I get to play with their systems.

(The cited website is laughably biased and many of the arguments/conclusions do not make logical sense at all. Silly ranting.)

john curl
john curl's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 6 months ago
Joined: Jan 20 2010 - 8:01am
Re: Corey Greenberg Revisited - And You Think Gordon Holt Was Fu

Corey is a genius, JA and I both know that. I told Corey that 20 years ago, and tried to help him on his way. JA hired him, but Corey 'screwed the pooch' and let his arrogant actions get him fired from a number of positions. Corey took bribes? Well most everybody who wrote for 'Audio' magazine took bribes, and it was not just that magazine, either. It was the price of doing business with many of my former employers. 20 years ago, I also told Corey, that while he liked writing about audio, now, that he appeared destined for greater things. More like a modern day, Mark Twain. I haven't spoken to Corey in more than a decade, but I will always remember him 15 years ago, playing in a band with JA, at CES and me 'getting down' on the dance floor, because I was AA at the time and while everybody else could get 'drunk as skunks' I had to dance my blues away. Corey noticed my dancing from the stage and wrote something in 'Stereophile' about it. You see, my other calling was to be a 'solid gold dancer' to interpret through dance, Rock and Roll, after I had given up on ballet. See, we are all more than we seem!

Pages

  • X