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michael green
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Catch22's loudness war

Hi Catch

Since you often come up on my threads and talk about "the loudness wars", I thought it would be a good idea to do some listening together and talk about the resolution and stages in our systems.

Those of you who would like to follow, this would be a chance for you to talk about any particular recording in question.

My system will consist of a modded Magnavox CD player along side of a modded Jolida amp with my new Viola Mini Monitors. I might do some swapping around to my T-amp, mini amp, or even the stripped and modded Sherwood 4105.

Also for those who might think my Magnavox is on the low-fi end (not revealing enough lol) I have a Studer D730 on stand by.

Ok Catch maybe we can get on the same page with some of this compression stuff.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Catch22
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Thanks, but I'll pass

I've seen this movie before. Here, for example. http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynamics-and-dynamic-range

michael green
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figured as much

Figured as much.

Too bad your not willing to explore our hobby any deeper than, your own little closet, but it would be nice in this case if you were willing to tell people that you haven't truly explored all the different types of compression, instead of putting the blame on things you know little about.

Catch just because you "choose" not to look any further into the hobby of listening maybe you should let others do so without jumping in the way of their progress. It's a shame you blame music without even listening to it, and are afraid to reference together with fellow music lovers.

I sincerly hope listeners in this hobby aren't discourage by your negative comments about recordings and that they take the higher road and learn how recording and the playing back of recordings really work. There's much more to learn than having a system that can't play music, and making that system judge over the intent of a or any recording.

The loudness war is indeed one issue, but did you notice that the video you pointed to talked about "volume wars" which is actually a bit different from "loudness wars"?

In both camps it's an attempt to talk about how to get the most out of music and yet being able to acomplish particular recording playback standards. In reality my views sides with the "one recording" as a unit of sound, like the video suggest. However as the history of this goes we came out with radio, and when the recordings went from one to another (song after song), the volumes were so different that the FM movement implimented limiting as a way to make all volumes equal. It was a tight rope because there was never a standard set in recording gain. If you listened to earlier FM when they jumped from one song to the next, one would be very loud and the next almost not even able to hear. This had nothing to do with dynamics, but volume. Each recording made in different studios had different master volume settings which varied greatly. There were also EQ settings that did the same. Thus was born the volume control and equalizer. These both were designed to give the listener control when they went from recording to recording at home. Everyone back in those days of listening accepted that this is the way recording was done, but again with FM radio moving us from playing one recording (lp or tape) as a unit then moving on to the next LP, they started playing listening sessions with a mix of different recordings, that jumped all over the place volume wise and EQ wise. At the same time you had the listening public also buying recorded changers that played one song right after another. As time went on the listener moved away from the LP approach to the song by song one.

This is how the whole problem came about. We went from concert, as a whole, listening which didn't matter where the master volume was set to a completely different format. Before this time there was no such thing as "greatest hits" compilations, and radio DJ mixing. What's worse and maybe a bigger mistake, high end audio went discrete without even considering that our whole history of recordings were set with different "audio codes". Systems in the high end bragged on how well they played "A" or several recordings as if just because those recordings sounded great all recordings would sound as great. Fact is they took themselves out of the adjustment loop and became extremely limited in the amount of recordings the "fixed" systems would play.

Catch you made a statement before that was totally false. You said if a system was playing a "good" recording it would sound great on any system. Have you read many subjective reviews? Both audiophile and mass recordings are completely hit and miss in todays audiophile world. Why do you think audiophiles now have "Jazz" systems and "Classical" systems. Two major problems that the audiophile world has backed themselves in a corner on are, they don't look at the system (acoustical, mechanical and electrical) as a whole, and they have built themselves such specifically complicated systems that they play some music extremely well and all other recordings sound like crap. They don't do it consistantly across the board as in good vs bad recordings, but even if you line up the best recordings in the world the typical audiophile system won't make it through the list. Look at the reviews, RR vs Sheffield Labs vs Telarc vs Mapleshade vs Deutsche Grammophon vs Chesky vs....the list goes on forever.

What High End Audio should have done and will do (they have no choice), is rethink their system designs and this time around incorporate a bigger plan that is more integrated. Instead of discrete systems they will be variable and cover the basics as a system whole. I would suspect they will also bring back some form of EQing.

Hopefully there will also be two recording types that the industry will adopt. One that leans toward mix playing and the other a more dynamic version, but that more dynamic version will never happen if high end audio doesn't exist.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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lets do some listening

Catch22 is at it again. He's decided to carry the audiophile load on his sholders and make statements that suggest that I don't listen to music the audiophile way. I invite him and all the stereophile readers to visit us on TuneLand to explore this.

If there's any part of the audiophile listening world I haven't experienced I would love to do so.

I will use this particular thread to address this so that other threads don't get off topic.

I want to be as fair as I can possibly be in discussing issues like these so here's Catch22's most recent post about me.

Catch said

"
It's a difference in perspective

You've made it apparent that your disconnect with audiophiles is due to your lack of appreciation for the various aspects of reproduced sound that many audiophiles consider important. Because you have neither aquired the listening skill to recognize those aspects or because you are so singularly focused on staging that you are incapable of hearing other sound qualities, the conclusion is the same.

That's neither a condemnation of your products in total or dismissive of their implementation in someone's system. It's simply recognizing that you are not listening for the things the audiophile appreciates and equates to good sound.

This is most obvious in your inability to recognize poor recordings that are devoid of those sound qualities that audiophiles find necessary to achieve hi fidelity. While you may consider this some sort of "spin" as you like to call it, it's the kind of example that has to be resolved by you aquiring those listening capabilities in order to appeal to listeners who do have those capabilities.

Your continual insistence that recordings such as Santana's, Supernatural, which John Atkinson remarked was unworthy of listening to on anything aspiring higher fidelity than a boombox (or to that effect) and my pointing out (along with Bill and his audiophile friend) that Bob Dylan's, Modern Times, is equally limited in sonic capabilities, is "all there" as you described them, just shows how deep the divide is between what you are considering good sound and what audiophiles consider good sound and hi fidelity.

It would be one thing if there was simply a disagreement over the enjoyment of a particular piece of music or a difference in genres, but when such sonically corrupted recordings of music can't be recognized by you for what they are and you are unable to reconcile in your head why audiophiles would find them unengaging, then we simply have an impass in what you and the audiophile consider important to good sound.

That my friend is not spin and until you can come to terms with the fact that recordings such as those cannot be made "all there" with ANY amount of tuning tweaks because those aspects that audiophiles recognize as being important in reproduced sound DO NOT EXIST on the recording and therefore cannot be "all there" under any circumstances.

If all the years of experience you have messing around with audio has left you unable to discern these recording deficiencies, why would audiophiles find your opinion on sound to have any validity?"

mg's resonse

"lets reference some music together

If you really believe this you wouldn't run every time your asked to reference a piece of music together.

Why don't we get down to it then?

When would you like to hook up?

Let's do this Catch22, when the new room is up, I'll send you a plane ticket and put you up here in Vegas for a couple of days of listening. The only thing I ask in return is that we do live reports from Vegas throughout your visit.

Don't think I can be any more fair than this. But once your here I hope you give as much energy into what you learn about tuning, as the negative push your doing on these pages without ever doing it."

michael green
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michael green
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let's stop the BS Catch22

Catch, would you point out the things within the music that the audiophiles are hearing that I am not please?

I think that would be a good place to start. I will then go in one of my listening rooms and put on any piece of music I have that suits your purpose and give a description for you.

To warm up I'm going to start with Joe Morello "Going Places" on DMP. Those of you who have it you may certainly follow along. I'm sure Catch22 has it being a "real" audiophile.

First off, we need to cover the DMP sound which has it's own textures as compared to any other label of course. The great thing about most audiophile recordings is the simplicity of production (most of the time). If you lay out the different camps you can group together the ones that have similar flavors, and a lot of times you'll see that they share some of the same engineering styles mic setups and artist. For example if I'm interested in making it a crash tom tom ride and snare night I might put ECM and DMP in the mix together because of the tonal similarities in the halos around the sets and the way the cymbals roll into the room.

This recording is cool because of the songs chosen and Joe's ability to make every thing snap the way he has always done making every hit on anything unique. I'm going to leave this at one tuned setting unless Catch or someone else wants me to make a change then I'll be happy to make that change. I like a big stage but can make it as small as someone wants me to so just ask.

Since Catch doesn't think the soundstage is all that I'm going to talk about the texture of the drums the way it is set. Nope, sorry catch I can't do that, cause in this recording the placement is so well done that it would be a crime to missout on the depth between all the pieces. I have to think about how to describe this without space, but it's very hard because the layout of the drums is like someone dropped the set in the room. If you look at the snare then the tom, then floor tom and kick everything fits so nice. Joe does some cool spacing but for the most parts he brings you back to that set so you have a reference.

OK, so first track starts with Joe and the bass giving you a warm up on the beginning of "Sweet Georgia Brown". Catch you want to throw this on? What they are doing here especially Joe is playing different parts of the set and individual drum to give a wide range of sounds from the same drum. With the snare for example, the snare is almost perfectly round front to back in the stage and you can hear him and see him move forward and backward on the head. Catch22 on yours do you see the drum front to back as well as it side to side. If so we can go back through and see where on the head he is hitting each tap. Also how many rings of harmonics are you hearing off of each cymbal? We can count them and compare that too along with the depth of the sizes of things and compare to to the strikes and tonal qualities. If I'm missing something you can let me know and I'll try to dial it in.

I have to run but I'll be back to see how it's going for you and maybe we can compare and have some fun instead of bickering. Other listeners welcome to jump in and give your views of the sound.

michael green
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geoffkait
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The old I listen like an audiophile routine

Michael says he listens like an audiophile, but if he thinks loudness wars are just something to shrug off better think again.

Just on the off chance that the link to the unofficial dynamic range data base hasn't been provided elsewhere here it is.

http://dr.loudness-war.info

The easiest way to use the dynamic range data base is to type in the name of an artist, say the Rolling Stones or whoever. Then hit the RETURN button for the fairly complete listing of all Rolling Stones CDs and LPs along with the RELATIVE DYNAMIC RANGE NUMBER for each item. GREEN is GOOD and YELLOW is borderline and RED bad. After a few examples of various artists you should see a pattern developing. A very good Dynamic Range number on the data base is 14 to 17, very good especially relative to the numbers in RED, and a VERY BAD number is 6, 7, 8 and 9. The three numbers shown for each album on the list REPRESENT (1) lowest dynamic range on the album, (2) the average dynamic range and (3) the highest dynamic range (these numbers are just for comparison), There are some exceptions but by and large new releases and reissues of many CDs of groups we all love have been evicerated and suffocated so that in many cases there is no more LIFE left in the CD. As if things were not bad enough already. Things are actually worse than the data base indicates because of all the various problems associated with the room, with RFI\EMI, vibration, transformers, scattered laser light, you know, all things I've been discussing lo these past six months or whatever. It is what it is, there's not a whole lot you can do except grin and bear it if you wish to listen to one of these later very compressed CDs. I always wondered why the Stones Bridges to Babylon and even Bigger Bang didn't quite do it for me. Now I know. For someone who cut his teeth on 45s and 33 1/3 vinyl back in the 60s and seventies today's compressed sound just doesn't cut it. It's for sissies who haven't heard the real McCoy.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamics

BRuggles
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Check out a picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Granted, the picture in the upper right of the article is not scientifically "admissible," but it does give a good representation of the idea. It is an image representing the full-song waveform of Michael Jackson's "Black or White," as contained on three separate releases. Look how the levels change - and especially the differences between the incidental peaks - drum hits - versus the overall average - the RMS (sorta).

The loudness-war website is especially entertaining/depressing when reviewing different releases, in terms of time and format and mastering events, of the same album. Try Pearl Jam's Ten or Albert King with Stevie Ray Vaughan's In Session. Dark Side of the Moon is interesting because of the volume (quantity) of release editions and the various volume (levels) of the same. Perhaps the most dramatic example I have seen is Nirvana's Nevermind. The vinyl releases have such broader dynamics - AS MEASURED BY UNBIASED, SOULLESS SOFTWARE.

Intriguing is that CDs are supposed to have a broader dynamic range envelope, and mathematically they do. But even beyond that, LPs rarely see anything CLOSE to their measured dynamic range capabilities, let alone the 96ish dB theoretical and measured dynamic range of 14 bit digital (the other 2 bits are for error correction - not native sound reproduction). Where does it go? Well, we need to be able to hear things, and life has a noise floor without broaching tinnitus or what have you. And especially for popular music categories, smoother dynamics for legato instruments sounds pleasing to a point. And then some evil people in Dr. Strangelove-type rooms make nefarious decisions (I am guessing here) conspiring to sap our enjoyment of music by compressing needlessly. Or at least to match the other guy's and work for the 95th percentile consumers' taste and listening situation. Basically, the dynamics are made to be far less than the known possible extremes.

And Michael, volume and loudness are both fairly subjective and are generally used interchangeably in this context. And 0 dBFS is plain old 0 dBFS - the limit. If you want to be objective, talk about instantaneous sound pressure levels. But the whole issue is about taste. I am on the younger end of the audio hobby (a wee 33 years old), and I have a lot of friends blown away by the level of interest and price endemic to the high-end. They generally couldn't care less that so-and-so pop singer is compressed to within half a dB. Or, for that matter, is being Auto-Tuned into robothood. Until they are shown. Then, they generally care a little and could thus care marginally less. But not usually enough to open their wallets...

michael green
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referencing

I'm on-board the loudness wars train. But I'm more on board with knowing what sounds like what. http://www.stereophile.com/content/compression-or-distortion

A lot of audiophiles are listening to systems that are distorting and their blaming it on compression. The thread above shows the difference.

I don't think any one here disagrees with the loudness wars.

michael green
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geoffkait
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Dynamic range compression and distortion: apples and wild pigs
michael green wrote:

I'm on-board the loudness wars train. But I'm more on board with knowing what sounds like what. http://www.stereophile.com/content/compression-or-distortion

A lot of audiophiles are listening to systems that are distorting and their blaming it on compression. The thread above shows the difference.

I don't think any one here disagrees with the loudness wars.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Actually, now that you mention it, I don't know any audiophiles who mistake dynamic range compression for distortion. Whaddya know, another perfect Strawman Argument by Michael to add to the very long list. A clue should be that the units of distortion are totally different from the units of dynamic range. Like comparing apples to wild pigs. Ain't it funny how Pro Audio dudes frequently try to disparage audiophiles and get a leg up? Same old MO.

Pop Quiz - what are the units of distortion and what are the units of dynamic range?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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the OP

The original post is about referencing some music together so we can compare notes. My suggestion is many people are blaming "the loudness wars" for system performance problems, and I've pointed out how to tell the difference between distortion and compression.

If geoff wants to make his usual spin, that's fine, it doesn't change that the info is there for listeners who care to expore.

For those who wish to check into this and other topics on TuneLand http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ we would love to have you on our flame free forum, discussing audio without the BS.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Oh, I almost forgot, this is another billboard for Toon Land

Pardonez moi. I almost forgot this is your own personal crusade and you need to mark your territory with a nice wiz every once in while. Since you obviously feel uncomfortable debating the actual merits of the subject I'll leave you to your wizzing.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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great!

Great, geoffy wants to debate with me. People might want to view threads where geoff has been asked to reference music and as you see he quickly backs out, but it looks like he's ready now.

Ok, I was playing one of Johnny Cash's later recordings but have moved on to Phil Collins (Face Value).

Let's compare musical cues to see if my or your system is disorting the signal.

this will be fun

michael green
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Good comeback (cough, cough)

You either didn't understand the question or you're gracefully backing out. Either way, I understand. You can only pretend to be an engineer for so long. Hence all the deflection to some subjective I just want to listen crap.

"Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as anything I've heard in rock. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your asshole. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and Against All Odds. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite."

;-)
Geoff Kait
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michael green
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not a word LOL

Stereophile readers, notice that geoff was not able to say one word about the actual sound of this recording or any other.

It's pretty easy to pull a review out of any internet page, geoff.

How about we get down to what this hobby is about though, listening.

Not one word about the audio in your report. Just like there is not one word of technology in your product threads.

People in this hobby don't sit there and talk while their listening. Their listening to first off, a soundstage and secondly the contents of that soundstage.

Now your saying "I just want to listen crap", as if in this hobby listening is not the goal. Maybe you haven't noticed but this is a hobby about listening and you are claiming to be a designer that provides listening tools, yet you don't want to engage in actually doing any listening nore do you have an in-room system to even listen with.

I'm quite sure you didn't just play "face value" and came up with those comments. You found a script, copied it and posted. Interesting that the script though had little to do with the recording, or the recordings values.

If you wanted to talk about Phil, I would have been game for that as well, seeing he is a client of mine and one of rock/pop's greatest, but if you bother to look at what these threads are about, it's the listening and what people are hearing and what the systems can and can't do, and you mention none of this.

Now I have Face Value playing right this second, would you like to go through the songs with me step by step and compare the content of the recording, or are you wanting to try to put on some type of spin so you don't have to listen?

I really don't think people reading my posts for the last year would say I have or would have any desire to backout of referencing music. In fact I have posted about referencing music more than any other poster in the rave and tweak forums, than any other member on Stereophile over this last year.

Which song would you like to start with?

michael green
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Did I do that?

The quote was from American Psycho, a novel by Bret Ellis and later a movie starring Christian Bale. I thought the paragraph I quoted was an excellent example of sarcasm. No offense intended. Not one word of technology in my product threads? Really? I find that hard to believe. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure I mentioned something technical. Hmmmm......

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamite

michael green
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catch22 is back

Catch22 is back making comments on other threads about how terrible CD's are, yet he is not able to come up and talk about the differences between compression and distortion, and how a playback system works, so I will call him out again and will continue until he either stops making comments that are not fact based or get's tired of seeing his thread exposing flames.

It's a lot smarter to be a listener who ask why his system can not play the CD's and get answers from those who have no problems, than it is to bash a technology that is beyond their personal playback situation, but these guys are colorful and we see them pop up all the time.

Here's a question though for the rest of the readers especially those asking for advice on components. If Catch22 can not make CD's sound good, do you trust him to give advice on other topics? I say the same about Geoff or anyone who can not play CD's.

I for one trust and feel a lot more comfortable taking advice and hearing opinions from sucessful listeners and not those who have not figured out how to make something sound good.

michael green
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Distortion of what was said

Michael, do you really believe all CDs sound the same or have the potential to sound the same? Because if not, if you agree that The sound of CDs varies just like the sound of vinyl and cassettes then we are in agreement. Because that's what Catch22 and I are saying - that there is a wide range of sound quality for CDs, some sound quite good, *relatively speaking," while many sound rather MEDIOCRE or even POOR. I have stated on many occasions just exactly what I mean by MEDIOCRE and POOR. You know, thin, tinny, hollow, whimpy, synthetic, threadbare, etc. I'm not even talking about the ones we KNOW are *irretrievably* DYNAMICALLY COMPRESSED by the Audio Engineers. Hel-loo! And I don't think anyone is saying OR implying that The Sound of CDs cannot be improved. But you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And SQ of CDs will STILL VARY after tweaking, or tuning whatever. No matter how much you have in the end you could have had even more if you had started out with more. I can "hear past" the limitations of the medium and enjoy the positive attributes of the sound. I can improve the sound of a CD and I can improve the sound of cassette or vinyl and I can even improve the sound of the birds singing outside my window. But to say that the medium is NOT LIMITED is folly. And to deny the Sound Quality of many CDs is *inescapably* MEDIOCRE or even POOR is also folly. Everything is relative, though, there is no absolute. This is why I'm fond of comparing the sound of CDs to the sound of cassettes. You need to have some frame of reference. There is no absolute sound.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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thank you geoff

Hi Geoff

I appreciate us talking about this on a thread where we can be focused on the topic. There's three issues here for me when talking about quality of sound. One is I don't believe in any two products of anything being exactly the same, two I absolutely know for sure that the typical playback system (regardless of price) is not playing any where near all the info on any media, and three a lot of people in this hobby talk out of something other than personal experience and training.

Before getting into any of this, if these topics are going to have any type of meaning, we need to move past the spins, and this means statements like Catch makes about my playback or experiences or anything that is on the fringe of stupid. These topics go nowhere when pictures are painted for the sake of painting them and not for the use of info sharing.

here's why

When someone comes up here talking about engineering and hasn't spent real time in the studio or mastering seats, and has not studied compression past the naysaying level, they really don't understand limiting compression. Limiting/compression has been used with vinyl, tape and CD, so making statements based on a lack of knowledge and experience is going to marginalize any conversation. I do wish to talk about these issues, but if they never rise above the un-learned or some pretending they know, what's the use? Geoff, I'm not here to make war with anyone, but when people come up without the knowledge in hand when talking it makes Stereophile look pretty darn stupid to be honest. If someone is going to talk about CD making, or recording or playback, they should have a certain level of knowledge at least, if they expect to have conversations with people who do this for a living.

Me being on Stereophile is not about a bunch of guys on the first grade playground screaming. I'm here to be apart of a community of quality listeners. A quality informed listener is not going to call CD's an inferior source. I'm sorry but that's not going to happen from anyone, outside of those who have failed to be able to play them. There are different levels of Tape, Vinyl and CD's production wise and manufacturing wise, but who in this hobby doesn't already know this? Part of being an audiophile is collecting recordings that we enjoy and learn how to play. Personally I don't consider a guy an audiophile if he doesn't know the basics after being in this hobby a while. I don't think anybody else does either.

So what I'm saying is, if a guy can not even talk about the difference between compression, distortion, engineering or playback, why come up here at all talking on threads that they are not qualified to make points on?

If someone wants to talk the real deal, lets talk, but with most of these threads this isn't happening. It's a waste of time to keep trying to make a point that someone doesn't know something when that person (speaking of myself) is right in the middle of doing the very things that are talked about. For example, if someone needs to talk about compression with us we go to the studio with them to experience this first hand. We have even built our own studios to learn this. In fact in Nashville I had a studio in my penthouse, along with my listening rooms and music rooms. Same goes for talking about the quality of CD's or anything else audio. I didn't do and have these experiences so I could argue with someone on a Hi Fi forum. I had these experiences so I knew the industry I am involved in.

So back to your question of good and bad CD's. Speaking for myself knowing that there are different levels of anything is audiophile 101. Having a system that is able to play what is there is moving up the ladder a little, and reguires a system that can match the recorded code to the playback system, and this is where I see a lot of audiophiles stuck and not able to get to that next level whether this is in their mind or they just haven't had the experience yet.

Just as you or Catch make a comment to me about do I know that there are differences, I have been asking you guys "do you know this is a variable that can be adjusted?". The differences in recordings has been well talked about, and it's time to move on to the variables. You don't just throw a CD or any recording on and say that's bad. With Tape you adjust the head and EQ, with Tables you adjust the arm, tracking and a number of things including EQ, with CD's there are also adjustments to be made but the audiophile has not treated the CD player with the same attention as the former, and this is what I am saying. As with tape and tables, you can't judge a CD before you have made the proper adjustments. I and others have been making these adjustments so we know they are there, and this is maybe where you and Catch are having your questions. If you are not listening to a system that has these adjustments, how would you know that they exist? Your making judgement calls based on what? One setting? That's not being an advanced listener.

Now if you do have adjustments that's a different story. Another example. If you would come up here and say, I have the Sony walkman and when I hear a recording that sounds different, I do this, or Catch comes up and says, when I have a CD that does this, here's what I do to correct it. At that point your both moving in a direction the advanced audiophile can understand. The advanced audiophile doesn't do plug & play. They use what they have as a varying tool to dial in the sound. Again Tape heads, Table parts and CD's vibratory & field tuning.

michael green
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The Appeal to Authority

The appeal to authority

Explanation

An appeal to authority is logical fallacy (falsehood), an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority or judging himself to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true. Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious, I.e., false; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so *no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true*. Not every recording engineer believes that digital sounds wonderful, so one recording engineer's belief is just that - a belief or opinion. But his belief doesn't necessarily mean the proposition (that CDs sound wonderful) is TRUE. By the same token, an audiophile with 30 years of experience may express a particular belief but his 30 years of experience doesn't necessarily mean he's right about ANY argument he might wish to make. His argument might have more weight than some random guy standing under a bridge but his experience, his education, his standing in the community, the number of publications, those things, while nice do not necessarily mean he's right about any particular argument, even ones that are right up his alley, so to speak. For one thing, almost every aspect of the hobby is debatable, always has been, even among audio hobbyists with 30 years of experience or more. Thus, the claim, I'm an audio engineer and recording engineer so anything I say regarding sound or the physics of sound must be true is actually patently FALSE as described by the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy.. I.e., it is a form of SPIN.

However, the informal fallacy occurs only when the authority cited either (a) is not an authority, or (b) is not an authority on the subject on which he is being cited. If someone either isn’t an authority at all, or isn’t an authority on the subject about which they’re speaking, then that undermines the value of their testimony.

Psychological basis

An integral part of the appeal to authority is the cognitive bias known as the Asch effect.[23] In repeated and modified instances of the Asch conformity experiments, it was found that high-status individuals create a stronger likelihood of a subject agreeing with an obviously false conclusion, despite the subject normally being able to clearly see that the answer was incorrect.[24]

Further, humans have been shown to feel strong emotional pressure to conform to authorities and majority positions. A repeat of the experiments by another group of researchers found that "Participants reported considerable distress under the group pressure", with 59% conforming at least once and agreeing with the clearly incorrect answer, whereas the incorrect answer was much more rarely given when no such pressures were present.[25]

Related logical fallacies:

Appeal to emotion – where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning. [63]
Appeal to fear – a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by increasing fear and prejudice towards the opposing side[64][65]
Appeal to ridicule – an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous.[68][69]
Appeal to motive – where a premise is dismissed by calling into question the motives of its proposer.
Appeal to novelty (argumentum novitatis/antiquitatis) – where a proposal is claimed to be superior or better solely because it is new or modern.[72]
Appeal to tradition (argumentum ad antiquitam) – a conclusion supported solely because it has long been held to be true.[74]
Appeal to wealth (argumentum ad crumenam) – supporting a conclusion because the arguer is wealthy (or refuting because the arguer is poor).[76] (Sometimes taken together with the appeal to poverty as a general appeal to the arguer's financial situation.)
Judgmental language – insulting or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgment.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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tests, referencing and demoing with success

A question, I guess, maybe?

Why does anyone have to make appeals when all they have to do is reference and demo in real time?

I spend my days working with successful listeners and those on their way to being successful. From what I'm reading here both geoff and Catch are not having the same success with their listening based on how they describe their sound with CD's. The question for me is not all that profound but more common sense. Why would I or anyone want to take advice from those who are not being successful in their listening?

If I'm a listener and read how Catch or geoff describes CD's, wouldn't I be pretty stupid to want that? To me it doesn't take many marbles to realize I want to work with the people who are getting great sound from CD's vs the guy who is describing their system as one that is not able to deliver.

Sorry but I don't think appeals have anything to do with good or bad sound. Common sense says, if one guy doesn't have it and the other guy does you would be better off going with the guys who are getting the good sound. I don't see any spin in this. Some guys are playing CD's successfully and other guys are saying CD's sound like crap. I don't see the guys getting great sound from their CD's having the problem.

This is where this forum tends to get weird for me and others. If we are on the road to successful listening why would someone not be happy about that?

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Things might get kind of slow

Michael, you said you don't know why anyone has to make these appeals. Don't you recognize them? They're YOUR appeals? Hel-Loo! I bet you thought this was going to be easy. Lol Listen, there are many reasons why people say certain things, claim certain things, why they are on one side of an argument including, but not limited to, commercial interests. We do not expect audio hobbyists to have to prove what they are claiming because of the inherent difficulty in PROVING many of these things, especially on an audio forum. What are you going to do, hold your breath until you're blue in the face? Looking at your track record here with cryogenics and vibration isolation, to name just two issues that you claim don't work or else produce negative results, your experiences simply do not jive with most peoples' experience. The vast majority of people. It's basically just you and Costin. Lol So why would anyone take your opinion about the sound of CDs at face value without a grain of salt? Leaving aside the issue of your commercial interest in digital technology for a moment, don't you think audiophiles are polarized on a great many things? Uh, let's see, copper vs silver conductors, vinyl vs Compact Discs, tiny little bowl resonators, holographic foils, Mpingo wood discs, Schumann Frequency Generators, SteinMusic Harmonizers, Brilliant Pebbles, the Tice Clock, the Green Pen, audiophile fuses, cryogenics, anything with the word Quantum in its name, ERS cloth from Stillpoints, the use of lead and rubber and carbon fiber and steel and brass for audio cones, the Intelligent Chip, WA Quantum Chips, mu metal for transformers, C-37 Lacquer, Marigo VTS dots, Cream Electret, cork, CD treatments, demagnetization of CDs, ionization of CDs and cables, Power Line Conditioners, wire directionality, absolute polarity, and many others. If we ever get to the bottom of these things don't you think things might get kind of slow? Lol

As for why you and many other audio hobbyists find CDs wonderful sounding, I don't know. But I have some ideas why. Would you like to hear them?

"Because it's what I choose to believe." - anonymous audiophile

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I've never said I didn't like CDs

On the contrary, I said that well recorded CDs still "get my juices flowing." I've never even said that poor recordings are limited to just the CD format. I have albums that sound bad too. But, you already knew that and simply chose to obfuscate your demonstrative lack of listening skills when presented with a truly poor recording and your inability to discern its lack of virtues.

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What we need is a little evidence, not a lotta talk

Here's a snapshot of one of the Rolling Stones' pages on the Official Dynamic Range Data Base. Now, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to see how the Stones' repertoire has been progressively and aggressively compressed to the point where there's nothing left except a few measly dB of dynamic range. I implore you, don't you think this is wrong? Bad Audio Engineer, bad!! Apparently, a rolling stone does gather moss.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Rolling+Stones+&album=

Geoff Kait
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CD's

I still listen to CD because I've learned to live with it's inherent limitations. And there are some CD's which sound reasonably good, maybe 10% of them. But tuning cannot improve the sound recorded on a CD. Vinyl is making a big comeback now. There are now four or five stores within a mile of me selling LP's. And these are audiophile LP's, 180g.And the selection is getting bigger and bigger every week.Thing is, the better your system, the worse a bad recording sounds.My system makes a good CD sound very good, and a crappy one sound very crappy. But the sound of a good LP transcends the sound of CD entirely. Not only is tuning unnecessary, but tuning would be stupid. Nothing can improve the quality of an excellent recording nor can tuning improve the quality of a crappy one. I now own about 15 LP's,and I plan on eventually owning a hundred(if I can afford it). I feel like I'm 20 again. Buying vinyl albums. And for the first time in a long time,owning high-quality HI-FI components seems worth it.

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lack of listening skills

Well catch this has been weird for me ever since I started posting here. I've spent my whole life being asked to be a part of listening in some way http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/thetunebroadband/index-4.html

However when I started posting here, I could see an insecure part of this industry that I always knew was there but never gave it much thought, thinking people who listen are more likely to be happy than un.

What I have noticed though every time I'm involved with an audiophile discussion, the guys who are in the negative camp are never willing to reference a piece of music with others, which is just the opposite from the happy and professional listeners. For an industry where all things can be settled through listening this is the most insecure part of it I have seen. Somewhere along the way guys like you two have gotten really screwed in the head and it has nothing to do with music. If you can't make something sound good and you refuse to reference with others who have, how do you expect anyone to take you serious other than other unsuccessful listeners?

Sorry Catch, but with the thousands of people who consider me a valued listener, I find it a little silly to defend my listening skills with someone afraid to listen with me.

May I ask, what do you have for a listening system, and what do you do for a living? I think like as I have done with May and geoff, maybe we should look at your qualifications.

I welcome you to look at mine :)

michael green
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excuse me

Excuse me Dave, but aren't you the guy who has 300 CD's and only able to play 10 of them? Now you have all of 15 lps and your giving us advice on the Stereophile forum?

I'm truly glad you are enjoying your music, but making statements about tuning based on your record so far doesn't appear much more than someone speaking from a very limited source of info.

maybe you could list your experience with tuning personally

This is a very interesting crowd gathering. Not one of you have given your experiences with "tuning" yet all say it doesn't work. Interesting indeed.

BTW David, how do you have your Table setup? Did you set it up without puting the cartridge on?

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look for yourselves

For the sake of those who say tuning doesn't make a difference please read http://www.stereophile.com/content/new-believer

Maybe you should do, before making judgements.

Here's a brand new thread with someone making moves, that as far as I know has never done anything with me, yet look at his testing and results. I'm not saying he has maximized or found the ultimate tweak, but look at the amount of change. You who are sitting in judgement are doing so without exploring.

Congrats to you CaptainVinyl1

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Amount of change

Well, to be fair, we really don't know what he heard with the wood blocks and more importantly we don't really know what WE would hear if we could have been there in person to hear his results. Some folks are better at writing than others and can wittingly or unwittingly create an impression of something greater (or less) than what actually occurred. Reviewers frequently use hyperbole and even purple prose for just such effect. So do posters on audio forums. Michael, I know you have schooled us, scolded us, on many occasions that you can deduce the sound of someone's system from a photo of his system or room. But can anyone really know what a system sounds like or a change in the sound really sounds like just by someone's description, no matter how sincere? Someone's transparent and open is another person's congealed and shut down. One person's natural and lifelike is another person's thin, tinny, metallic and synthetic. The typical audiophile words like lightning fast, undistorted, realistic, engaging, smooth and highly resolved have been overused for forty years and have lost their meaning. Methinks you are simply trying to make this poor lad another one of your Tuning Foundation case studies.

Now, I suppose you're going to give us a big lecture on how the wood blocks allow the vibrations to flow more easily.

Geoff Kait
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well.....

geoff said

"Well, to be fair, we really don't know what he heard with the wood blocks and more importantly we don't really know what WE would hear if we could have been there in person to hear his results."

mg

That's pretty easy to respond to actually. If you were part of the advanced audiophile listening community you would know because you would be "doing" audio instead of talking. We who tune "do" and so when someone says a certain tweak or audio adventure we can relate because this is what we "do" "have done" "are doing" or "will do". This goes for any tweaks, adjustments or tunes.

I would expect someone wouldn't be able to relate if they weren't involved in the action of music making. However for those of us who do, we get use to the sound of materials and products. I can understand someone who is not versed not getting it, but we shouldn't discount those who do.

an example and maybe that lecture

I mention or show a picture of Vishay, ERO, Roederstein, WIMA and instantly for the guy in the know, sees exactly what I'm talking about and can put a flavor to it and story behind it, just like the guy who sees ZIKO, SOLDIER, National, Elixir can do the same.

Not only can advanced listeners and players see and hear what is going on, but they also understand how the blending of flavors work. How do they know? By doing and experience.

It's true and is a good thing, we get excited when someone takes a step. It really doesn't matter to us big or small because we get excited about the journey or that moment of eye opening. Those who have been and are there watch to see how far that person goes or where they stop at. At the same time we know how big a change like that can be because we watch people do the same thing and have for many years. We also practice the changes he and others do "in real time".

So, it's cool you can marginalize, but you also paint a picture of yourself in doing so.

geoff, there's a huge world of music out there that goes way beyond some guy listening to a Sony Portable Cassette Player. Being apart of all the variables and learning something wonderful each day is what makes this hobby and industry so much fun. geoff, I'm sorry but people who do have been bit by the music bug, don't spend their time talking about what isn't, because they're spending their time uncovering what is.

michael green
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Geez not again

One wonders why can't you just make comments without the editorializing and character attacks? Can you really be that insecure? Ethan Winer had the same propensity. You're just like him. And if you wish to come across as a blonde cheerleader that's cool with me. I introduced 20 count 'em products in the last two years so I must have been doing SOMETHING, you know, not resting on my laurels like some people.

 photo photo_25_zpscbrh9lzd.jpg
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being fair

MG repeats

"geoff said

"Well, to be fair, we really don't know what he heard with the wood blocks and more importantly we don't really know what WE would hear if we could have been there in person to hear his results."

mg

That's pretty easy to respond to actually. If you were part of the advanced audiophile listening community you would know because you would be "doing" audio instead of talking. We who tune "do" and so when someone says a certain tweak or audio adventure we can relate because this is what we "do" "have done" "are doing" or "will do". This goes for any tweaks, adjustments or tunes.

I would expect someone wouldn't be able to relate if they weren't involved in the action of music making. However for those of us who do, we get use to the sound of materials and products. I can understand someone who is not versed not getting it, but we shouldn't discount those who do.

an example and maybe that lecture

I mention or show a picture of Vishay, ERO, Roederstein, WIMA and instantly for the guy in the know, sees exactly what I'm talking about and can put a flavor to it and story behind it, just like the guy who sees ZIKO, SOLDIER, National, Elixir can do the same.

Not only can advanced listeners and players see and hear what is going on, but they also understand how the blending of flavors work. How do they know? By doing and experience.

It's true and is a good thing, we get excited when someone takes a step. It really doesn't matter to us big or small because we get excited about the journey or that moment of eye opening. Those who have been and are there watch to see how far that person goes or where they stop at. At the same time we know how big a change like that can be because we watch people do the same thing and have for many years. We also practice the changes he and others do "in real time".

So, it's cool you can marginalize, but you also paint a picture of yourself in doing so.

geoff, there's a huge world of music out there that goes way beyond some guy listening to a Sony Portable Cassette Player. Being apart of all the variables and learning something wonderful each day is what makes this hobby and industry so much fun. geoff, I'm sorry but people who do have been bit by the music bug, don't spend their time talking about what isn't, because they're spending their time uncovering what is."

Geoff, you can put the personal attack spin on this all you wish. If there was a common place of reference between you and those who study the art of design you wouldn't be responding the way you do but instead engaging on the topics and posts.

My point is simply this, those who have spent their lives "doing" the industry understand the values of design and listening at higher levels.

for example

You have reached the level of a portable cassette player for us all to see. You started your own thread on it, it was so important. And in that thread you suggested we throw away our in-room systems and come join you. So let's look at this level and compare it to an in-room system, or let's explore your tweaks of these units.

It seems like Mr. Winer really got under your skin, and you compare me to him, but looking at his website and mine they look nothing alike, so I'm assuming that you compare him to me for other reasons. I'm guessing that the two of you butted heads in some way, no biggie. However between you and I the door is open from my end and has been for you to engage with us in listening.

taking this a step futher

You show pictures of your systems, I see portable cassette players. In your pictures I see that you have not yet worked on the wire that runs from the unit to the phones. From an audiophile and designer point of view I wonder why not?

Advance designers who I deal with and I as well hot rod this part of the player, the difference is a pretty fair jump and you are more than welcome to make a tweak out of it if you wish. Have you taken a look at the cable yet? A tweak is looking straight at you. A tweak that could level the playing field between your cassette and CD players, but you don't see it do you?

So what I will do, to be fair, is go to your portable thread and we can talk about your player.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

PS here are some of our cheerleaders http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

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Ah, yes, the wire running to the earphones

Micahel wrote,

"You show pictures of your systems, I see portable cassette players. In your pictures I see that you have not yet worked on the wire that runs from the unit to the phones. From an audiophile and designer point of view I wonder why not?

See, this is what's so funny. You say I don't treat the wires running from the portable player to the earphones but the plain fact is I actually do treat it. But you just can't SEE what I do. Pretty funny, right? Kinda reminiscent of your Great Carsoni impersonation, guessing what someone's system sounds like by looking at the photo of the room. There are quite a few things that can be done to the player and to the wires running from the player to the earphones. I also treat he earphones. Hey, why not? I'm pretty sure your eyes are glazing over about now, right? There is a pretty big ever widening gap between real high end Tweaker like myself and well kind of pretend or wanna be high enders.

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Ah, yes, the wire running to the earphones

Michael wrote,

"You show pictures of your systems, I see portable cassette players. In your pictures I see that you have not yet worked on the wire that runs from the unit to the phones. From an audiophile and designer point of view I wonder why not?

See, this is what's so funny. You say I don't treat the wires running from the portable player to the earphones but the plain fact is I actually do treat them. But you just can't SEE what I do. Pretty funny, right? Kinda reminiscent of your Great Carnac impersonation, you know, guessing what someone's system sounds like by looking at a photo of the room. There are quite a few things that can be done to the player and to the wires running from the player to the earphones. To everything. I also treat the earphones. I'm pretty sure your eyes are glazing over about now, right? There is a pretty big ever widening gap between real high end tweakers and well kind of pretend or wanna be high enders.

Geoff Kait
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wonderful

see you on your thread

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thank you readers!

Also want to thank the readers! I mention this here cause Catch has pointed to the numbers on TuneLand before. Today we had 42 visitors at one time on TuneLand reading. Excellent! I'm thrilled to see listeners responding to the tune, even with the flames that appear frequently here. Your positive spirits and love for the hobby is shining and is wonderful to wittness:)

Also you guys who are taking steps forward tuning your systems, thumbs up! You are showing the industry is alive and well as you embrace this chapter. Good for you!!

share the music

michael green
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Ethan Winer, Weisenheimer

Michael wrote,

"It seems like Mr. Winer really got under your skin, and you compare me to him, but looking at his website and mine they look nothing alike, so I'm assuming that you compare him to me for other reasons. I'm guessing that the two of you butted heads in some way, no biggie.

You completely missed my point. Please tell me you're just pretending to be dense. It has nothing to do with web sites or products, you silly goose.

Geoff Kait
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You've got us feeling sorry for Mr. Winer lol

goeffy

Like I said, I don't know Mr. Winer other than it seems like he believes in what he is doing to the point that he has made a business out of it. If someone wishes to follow his designing or your designing or anyone elses that's how a hobby like this works. All I do is wish he and you success and hope that they take a look at tuning as an option as well.

But dude here's where the weirdness comes in for me concerning you. Well here's an example amoung countless other ones. Here's what I wrote on another thread.

"Ok, now follow me with this dude.

First he moves away from having an in-room system 8 years ago "and never looked back", but still sells acoustic tweaks. Then he claims he has the answer with his High End Headphone system, because of the way he is isolating it, and all of us need to do his formula of tweaks or we are not getting all the music. Next thing we read is geoff dumps his isolated "geoff tweaked" CD system for a portable Sony Walkman Cassette Player. Keep in mind he says CD's sound..."CDs frequently sound whimpy, congealed, compressed, hard, metallic, nasal, boring, bass shy, airless, soulless and threadbare" And now when asked to talk about his tweaks geoff says they're invisible."

If Mr. Winer had to deal with this "geoff" I feel for him as a human trying to push what he believes in.

One thing I'm sure Mr. Winer and I have in common is we don't do "invisible" tweaks. For one, how would we find them to start with? You must have designed invisible glasses before the tweaks. But my thinking is, if you designed invisible revealing glasses, why aren't you selling them to your NASA buddies instead of using them to build invisible tweaks to sell on AudioGon?

This must be one of those "advanced concepts" that you and May talked about on one of your threads.

Sorry readers just having fun.

michael green
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Pot meet Kettle

Michael, your whole Tuning Thing is based on the concept that CDs do not sound good right out of the box. That's precisely why Tunees have adopted the behavior of prairie dogs on crack and try to fix the stupid CDs by running around and turning knobs, adjusting springs, stripping down electronics and whatever bizarre things you can come up with. Rather than be in denial about the sound quality of CDs I think you'll find it's much healthier, you know, psychologically, to just man up and admit that CD sound quality is pretty shitty right out of the box. Then we can all move forward. All this angst and argumentativeness you display is just like Ethan Winer. You're just like him. Lol

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tuning concepts

Tuning is based on the fact that all recordings are unique, all sources are unique and all playback systems and conditions are unique, and require certain adjustments to be made to hear the recordings at any particular level of quality.

As audio products are designed, built and then shipped they almost always end up in different playback conditions than their origin factories. This is one area and level of tuning, but as a person becomes more aware as an audiophile they may move up in levels of listening and customize their systems for their personal listening lifestyle. This can be as simple as voicing the sound of the room or having a complete tunable system, stock tuning or mod tuning. We currently make tunable acoustics, funiture, speakers, cable & accessories and mechanical accessories. We will be coming out with our electronics within the next year hopefully. We also design and build complete rooms that respond starting at 7hz and up.

MGA/RoomTune addresses electromagnetic tuning, mechanical transfer for each component and speaker type as well as addressing any vibratory conditions in the audio chain. MGA/RoomTune also has a support forum where the listener both home and pro can have their own on-going thread. There are thousands of articles between the active TuneLand techno-zone and the archieved TuneLand.info.

To find out about our concepts and tuning tools please visit TuneLand and recieve free room analyzing and equipment layouts.

MGA/RoomTune works with every area of the audio chain, from tuning guitar amps, live room, control room, mastering and playback home systems. We've had our own High End Audio stores since 1981 specializing in system matching. Since 2013 MGA/RoomTune and Sound Consultant have teamed up to bring the very best of High End Audio to the marketplace. We are an equal opportunity audio company that works with all component companies, and make custom fitted stands for the Highest of High End as well as the simple setups.

We have just introduced our new series of Turntable Stands, already gaining interest amoung the top Table players.

The MGA D-27tweeter is available next month in Poplar, Hard Maple and Rosewood to be added to the other choices.

The MGA D-27 ranges 900hz-26Khz, featuring voiced hardwood back-plate and matching mounting plate.

There are many more designs to view on TuneLand and we thank geoff kait for once again promoting our efforts.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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As I said...

As I said , you go through all that trouble and expense, not to mention the Audio Nervosa, the jumping up and down like a rat on an electrified grid, because the CDs don't sound good out of the box. They sound BAD. Or to put it your way, they all SOUND BAD DIFFERENTLY. Hel-loo! You silly goose, don't you realize we finally agree on something?! Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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they sound pretty darn good

They sound pretty darn good to me!

In fact I'm going shopping for a few more here in a little bit, want to go?

how bout we meet over at ZIA Records later :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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You're losing me, Goldie
michael green wrote:

They sound pretty darn good to me!

In fact I'm going shopping for a few more here in a little bit, want to go?

how bout we meet over at ZIA Records later :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

You're losing me, Goldie. You spent thirty years trying to get CDs to sound good, now you're telling me they sounded good already? Is there something wrong with you?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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where did you get this?

geoff said

"You're losing me, Goldie. You spent thirty years trying to get CDs to sound good, now you're telling me they sounded good already? Is there something wrong with you?"

Don't know where you picked up that info geoff-ster.

I spent 30 some years making the audio chain variably tunable. During that time I used Musical Instruments, Vinyl, Tape, CD's, and recorded music files. Don't know why you would call sources broken. Do you consider musical instruments broken if they are out-of-tune?

Sorry your lost, not my intent.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Catch22
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The Wall Street Journal looks at HiFi

Hopefully, this isn't going to be moved behind the pay wall, as of now it's open to read and kinda interesting as a yuppie looks into achieving high fidelity and talks to Bob Ludwig and others on his journey. Here's a snip:
++++++

But the type of music also matters. You’re more likely to hear the difference with jazz and classical, for example. “When you get into rock 'n' roll, there’s some material where lower fidelity sounds better,” Mr. Ludwig added. “I’m actually remastering an old Nirvana track right now. This thing ain’t gonna make much difference in high resolution, because the source was very low resolution on purpose.”

Unlike new recordings of classical, jazz and other genres where nuance matters a lot, pop can be tricky. Many chart-topping songs may have been recorded at the most sophisticated studios, but are mixed to sound great on the radio, MP3 or YouTube—their range is “compressed” so that even quieter sounds end up much louder. When these overly compressed tracks are released in hi-res, all the echoes, harmonics and other ephemera from the original recording—the “transients,” as Ludwig calls them—“are lost forever.”

http://www.wsj.com/article_email/hi-res-audio-hijinx-why-only-some-albums-truly-rock-1425675329-lMyQjAxMTA1NTAxNzAwMjcwWj

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yes, and to add

"Naysayers may talk about hi-res being physically impossible to hear, but the format is only as good as the effort that’s gone into it."

And I will add, the effort that has gone into the playback system.

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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public announcement

If I may I would like to make this announcement.

In the past I have questioned Catch22's judgement when it comes to recording quality. In my mind I had no reference to his listening and therefore went solely off of his statements and the way I envisioned his statements and setup. After listening somewhat with him on The Referencing SuperTramp thread I now value his listening and feel I can take his comments within a greater valued context.

Thank you catch for taking the time to reference together, it has been a pleasure, and I hope just the beginning.

Although we may different on some subjects, I now have no doubt on your seriousness as a fellow listener, and a set of ears to learn from and enjoy. once again thank you

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Thank you, Michael

Sometimes when we focus too much on where we differ, we fail to see where we share so much in common. Maybe someday we'll get a chance to really do some listening together. It's extremely challenging for me to talk about the emotional impact of music. The old "...like dancing about architecture..." thing.

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That will be nice!

Hi Catch

That will be nice, I look forward to it! In the meantime, I just wanted to let you know how much I have enjoyed your most recent posting and my only regret is that it took me so long to see your passion and skill, forgive me. I won't make that mistake again!

with much appreciation and respect

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Back to Topic

Michael:

You mentioned earlier you wanted to do another Reference...that would be *awsome*. As OP of this thread you did mention a tune...could you please reply and state precisely which recording you would like to reference? Or... as I now have read later in this discussion, is the Referencing session no longer desired? If so, I can respect that and start my own thread if I find something to reference.

Respectfully,

Ronald R. Stesiak, PhD (h.c.)
The National Science Foundation
Computational Neuroscience
Computational Finance

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referencing

Hi Ron

I think because we have got a fairly good thing going with the referencing, we might want to do a new thread for each recording. Just a thought.

We also are getting to the place where we as listeners are starting to gel with this particular group of guys, and it might be good to have threads that show this particular season of music referencing so readers in the future can look and see what these guys did and thought at that time.

I know for myself it's always easier to make a context and seasons of listening and thinking about specifics, but I'm on for the ride for whatever you guys decide.

My only thing during this time is we're heading into designing mode so that means a lot of system changing, but I'll try to keep up.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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reply re:Referencing

Michael & All:

Agreed to using separate thread... just read that Referencing was mentioned in this one and wanted to show my continued interest.

Ron

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