rrstesiak
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Bowers & Wilkins ASW10 CM
bierfeldt
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Can you listen to it? Play So What off of Kind of Blue and it will take about 45 seconds to tell if you should buy it. The bass at the beginning of that song will sound really different with a decent sub. Even the newer S2 might be worth listening to as it wil give you a diretional idea of what it is going to sound like.

I say this only because I have never heard the ASW 10 CM. At $1500, I alway viewed it as an awful spend and just never bothered. My concern is that I have listened to the ASW 600 line and it sounds very muddy despite being sealed. In a side by side comparison, I bought a Mirage ported sub over a B&W ASW 8 because it sounded crisper and more musical. I almost wonder if they have some kind of EQ in them that makes it sound boomy for home theatre.

That being said, the ASW CM 10 is part of the much more refined CM line. The question is, did they tune it for music or did they tune it for home theatre? At $600, if it is tuned like a Rel or Sunfire, that is a great deal.

rrstesiak
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bierfeldt:

It is marketed as part of their CM speaker line; vs. their separate Home Theater line...so it is intended as a music-first box.

I just got back from the shop...and I looked at the back of it...it has a phase switch, a few equalizer options, and two more eq knobs, variable filters, all kinds of goodies on the back panel...with 5 way binding posts or RCA as connection choices. I don't recall seeing the dreaded LFE home theatre RCA jack..

So, I think this thing might be a great deal... I will take your advice; however, and definitely bring in KOB on CD and demo it.

I just listened to KOB at home with my Infinity ported 8" and it sounded *HORRIBLE*. I turned off the sub, and it was crisp again..so that is an excellent idea.

Anything else you can add would be greatly appreciated. I am in the market for a SUB or two, but not literally now. But at such a deal, I don't want to miss this one.

I've purchased Bowers & Wilkins on closeout before and certainly didn't regret getting a pair of CM5's for $1100! I'm still kicking myself for ever selling those off. I bought the Creek with the proceeds; so not all was lost.

Best Regards,

Ron

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So I bought the thing on 15 day trial....

So far, so GREAT.

Only extended listening will tell, but initial impressions are... *WOW*.. not muddy...but not crisp...which I truly doubt any SUBWOOFER could be classified as crisp... I have no experience with subs at all though, so who knows.

I tried KOB in the shop, but the sub was located 15 feet to the right of the speakers and it was a ridiculous demo at best. I just more or less made sure the thing worked.

At home, and dialed in at 0 degrees in phase, rolloff between 80 and 120Hz depending on material at the moment..I am enjoying the bottom two octaves that have been to some extent missing, and the bottom octave completely absent. It's nice to hear the timpani the way it's supposed to be heard, and the pressure of the Symphony..hard to describe..but it is now there.

I am already wishing I had two of these... because when I set it to 120Hz, I get a full bodied symphony....but it is obviously tilted to the SUB channel...when I set it to 80Hz...I don't get the tilt anymore, but I am missing again the timpani and other effects... not sure what TO DO!?
I am hearing more information from the high pedigreed digital feed I am giving it I have never heard, so that's a great start.

It does exhibit more "control" than my ancient 8" ported Infinity 100 Watt, but maybe it is too loose? Not sure what a great sub is supposed to sound like..but I am pleased so far.

Anyone recommend the "proper" rolloff frequency?

Cheers,

Ron

Here's a picture of the rear controls:

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bierfeldt
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The CM line is sooooo much better than the 600 series that is what I assumed, but you know the risk with assumptions.

The three songs that I think are best to evaluate bass performance are So What off KOB, Duran Duran's A View To a Kill and Peter Gabriel's That Voice Again. So What displays refinement and subtlety. A View To a Kill, when produced well sounds like the bass is warping in the wrong direction. I know that doesn't make sense but it will when you hear it if the song is produced very well. That Voice Again has quick, crisp changes and demonstrates accuracy and speed.

I expect a good sub to deliver all three of these things. I have very little doubt that this one will, but it is always good to check. I would definitely take this over your other options at $600 which would be the NHT B-10d or this SVS sub and I am forgetting the model number. If you can raise the $600, I would take it.

rrstesiak
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THANK YOU for those awesome suggestions!

Specifically, A View To A Kill!!!!

I immediately heard that cool messed up bass... but it is very clear and extremely taught and controlled...wow... lol....this is FUN! The Bass you are referring to is the very very low frequency counterpoint Bass to the main Bass.. Duran Duran must be playing two Basses for this song or the Bassist is a genius. But I totally get what you're referring to. I can hardly hear it without the SUB. With the SUB, it magically appears, and is in proportion.

It was a rare true WOW moment.

I truly think this sub is a keeper.

My critical remaining question: I can only afford one...and there is only one for that price... Is it OK to have only one sub in a two channel music setup, or do I truly need two?

I can maybe get by with one until I can find another on Audiogon or Ebay or ??? when my finances improve again.

Or... Maybe I can redo my audio rack and set the damn thing in the middle?

Suggestions... again, I am truly clueless when it comes to high end subs.

I think this one is a winner though.

Thanks In Advance,

Ron

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A View To a Kill is a song that I think most people have never really heard. Average speakers and ported subs are incapable of reproducing that one well.

You aren't going to hear a difference in a smaller room as low frequency sound waves are omni directional. So long as the sub is in front of you; preferably near your speakers and is not producing any higer frequency waves (>125hz), your mind will perceive that the bass is radiating from the appropriate speakers even though it is coming from the sub.

I have one subwoofer my main system and regularly experience the false perception that the bass is coming from my Revel Speakers instead of the sub.

Don't get me wrong, technically speaking two subs will be superior. But the marginal benefit of that second sub will decrease as your room gets smaller and your speakers get relatively close together. My speaker are about 8' apart in a 12 x 20 room and I sit about 14' from the speakers. I would define that as a smallish room with speakers relatively close together.

Regarding placement, if you can avoid putting it in a corner, that would be best. B&W will have a recco but Sunfire suggests trying to stay 3' away from a corner. Experiment with placement and volumes and eventually it will meld smoothly.

rrstesiak
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I appreciate the dialogue we had today and found it highly helpful.

I am also sort of relieved about not having to purchase another sub! I see a lot of systems setup at the trade shows with dual subs, but those are trade shows.

As for the listening phenomena of low Hz being hard to locate, I have heard of that a long time ago..was just hoping it held true for the higher end kit I now seem to be getting into. For example, I know my current system is way more "sensitive" at decoding the audio signal whether it be on digital files, a CD, or Vinyl. I was hoping that I could just nudge the sub next to a speaker and be "OK"..

As for my setup, my speakers are 7' apart, and the sub is diaginally behind and to the left of the left speaker...with the room being I think 10x14..and it is not in a corner..so that's good...I think I should be totally OK again.

Thank you for the "sanity check". If I do ever spot another one of these subs for $600 though, I'll certainly spring for it! lol.

Cheers,

Ron

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You can get much better results by a different setup method.

First, connect your subwoofer's speaker-level inputs to the terminals of your main pair of speakers (using 16 or 18 gauge speaker wire; very small current so wire used is not critical), and remove the cables from the Line In jacks.

Second, set the subwoofer low-pass filter knob to around 50-60 Hz. Setting it any higher than that causes too much frequency overlap between the main speakers and sub, resulting in very poor resolution in the mid-bass region where they are conflicting with each other.

Run the main pair of speakers full-range, with no limiting of their low-frequency response; their inherent low-frequency rolloff characteristics will start to roll them off below 50-60 Hz. The sub should only operate BELOW the natural rolloff frequency of the main speakers!

A subwoofer should NEVER be set to operate above 60 Hz unless you are using some sort of tiny tiny main speakers that only go down to 80 or 100 Hz (an unfortunate situation that should be avoided).

Adjust the subwoofer gain and frequency limit by listening to various music and fine-tuning for best sound quality. It takes a while to fine-tune them, but when you get it right it will be worth the time and effort.

This will allow the main speakers to give you better performance, with no undesirable limiting of their proper frequency response, and the subwoofer will blend seamlessly with them once you get the subwoofer controls fine-tuned to match the main speakers.

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commsysman:

That sounds like a good approach.

So in your experience with higher end subs, the speaker inputs are in fact superior to the line level inputs? I'm looking for more of an in depth background if possible on the reasoning and past experiences you've had to arrive at that decision.

Best Regards,

Ron

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How much does your sub weigh? It's only a 10 incher with a very small cabinet too. Crazy!

I knew it was heavy... So I looked up the specs. I may remove the speaker and take a peak inside out of sheer curiosity.

This thing is quality.

Ron

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Commsysman is right regarding connecting via speaker level inputs. this way the sub and your speakers are receiving exactly the same signal and it is how Rel and a few other manufacturers suggest setup. Additionally, like all single ended cables, there is a risk you can create a humm. You do need to ask the manufacturer first if your amp has a dual mono design. If your amp is not internally common grounded, you can create a short because the sub will be. I had my Rega and currently have my Rogue attached to my Sunfire this way.

The Sunfire HRS 12 is a 38.5lb 13.5" cube. Check out the specs on some of he JL Audio subs. They must pack them with lead.

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