You are here

Log in or register to post comments
chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
A better tv to receiver connection?

Right now I have a probably crappy $50 dvd player connected via HDMI to a tv, which then feeds an analog signal via Blue Jeans Cable interconnects back to my NAD T748 receiver. My question is, I'm pretty sure this means my tv is acting as a DAC for the receiver, and if so I'm pretty sure I'd rather the DAC in the receiver do that job. Would the better connection be HDMI from player to receiver, then HDMI to tv? I seem to recall someone, possibly Mr. Bierfeldt, mentioning that NAD's video processing sucked. I don't need my receiver to do anything to the video signal. Would it just pass it along unaltered or do I have to tell it to do that?

Also, let's say I had $150 to blow on a better DVD player (I have no Blu-ray discs so that's unnecessary). Is there anything decent in that range or should I save my change for the Oppo I keep seeing mentioned repeatedly on this forum? Thanks for any thoughts.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
I don't know if I said "sucked"

If I did, that was poorly phrased. The NADs video processing relative to Integra or Marantz is not quite in the same league. That being said, it is better than what your TV will likely do itself.

I would run the HDMI cable to your receiver. That will be your best option IMO. Also, regarding video processing, check out the paragraph on the NAD website on Complete Video. It should make you feel better as I don't believe the NAD upscales or does anything to the signal.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers/T-748-A/V-Surround-Sound-Receiver/

I like the Oppo and eventually plan to upgrade to one myself.

If you aren't going to step up to the Oppo, I like Samsung for inexpensive players. I have one in my bedroom and it does a great job but I also like Samsungs TVs so that is a purely personal bias in favor.

Another option which I currently use in my home theater is a PS3 which is a surprisingly good. The biggest issue with it is that it has a cooling fan for the processor which makes noise when it kicks on which can be undesirable/distracting. Otherwise it is fabulous.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Ok. Glad you responded. I saw

Ok. Glad you responded. I saw the post where Mr. Green went out of his way to insult you and others like you on this forum, and I was worried you actually did quit. Like Ron I value your input greatly and would hate to see you run off the site by something like that. If Mr. Green wants to know why participation is down, I for one can say that it gets tiring to see two or three-way battles among him, Mr. Kait, and Ms. Belt on almost every thread. Matter of fact I stopped reading the forums this summer because of it. That's great that he's a successful businessman and would rather tune his room than swap out gear, but some of us, like myself, can't or don't want to room tune and are tired of hearing the same line pushed over and over again.

Anyways, sorry for the rant but IMO you did nothing to earn that screed from him and I couldn't ignore it. BTW I got the Q900's I mentioned before and HOLY CRAP do they sound better than those Infinities. Even in my non-room-tuned woodshop. One other quick question: I have some of my speaker cable runs going close to and parallel with a metal conduit that contains wires for the lights, saws, etc. Would it be a better idea to route the cables away from any AC lines?

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
I have no idea

Awesome to hear that you are so happy with the Kefs. For the extremely modest cost of the Infinity's, I think they still represent a great value but if you have the budget....

Thank you for the kind words. I don't plan on leaving altogether and agree that some of us aren't going to ever tune our rooms and equipment. Alternatively, I think he did make a fair point that offering more context about a POV can be helpful and make it easier for folks to interpret advice and make better decisions.

Regarding speaker cable runs, I honestly have no idea what impact running speaker wire parallel and near metal conduits would have. I would think it would depend heavily on the shielding on the AC lines and on your speaker cable, especially if you have long cable runs (over 25'). Best advice I can give you is try moving it away and see if it has an effect. Other folks may have a POV but I am definitely the wrong person to ask about speaker wires and how to run them. It is not an area I tinker with much in my systems.

commsysman
commsysman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: Apr 4 2006 - 11:33am
SYSTEM CHOICES

The Q900s are awesome speakers. You can spend some really big bucks on speakers and not get anything better.

As long as the AC wires are in metal conduits, this should not affect speaker wires. Speaker wires are low-impedance circuits anyway, and pretty much immune from direct interference. If there was a problem, you would hear a 60-cycle hum through the speakers.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Definitely no humming

Here's another question: my mother really likes my setup and I thought it would be nice to get her something similar for Christmas or her birthday. In her case, she'd need bookshelves, a cd player, and FM tuner. I'm guessing an integrated stereo amp/receiver with a decent cd player would do all that. If not, please enlighten me. I already have an idea for the speakers from suggestions from both of you, but I'm open to input on what integrated and cd player to look for. I'd be looking at used stuff so say a max of around $1000 retail for the integrated and $500 retail for the cd player. I figure I can get most anything half off on Audiogon. Assume an integrated capable of driving Monitor Silver 2's. Or anything with a 6 ohm rating. Basically all she ever listens to is classical so this system doesn't have to shake the house. Thanks guys.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
MA Silver 2s

MA Silver 2s aren't a hugely difficult speaker to drive. I would look at the Creek Evolution 50a. It's 55w are plenty to drive those speakers and the cool thing is they sell an AM/FM tuner module that can be added called the AMBIT for $250. The Ruby DAC also has an FM tuner on it so if you see a unit with either of those add ons, it will be exactly what you want.

If you get a Creek unit with a Ruby in it, you would want to use the Ruby DAC most likely and I would get an NAD C 516 BEE as a transport. It would be an awfully nice setup.

If you get a Creek without a Ruby DAC, I personally like Marantz CD players. I think the quality of their DAC implementation is very strong and their units sound very good. I would try and find a Marantz CD6005 or the 6004 which was the prior model.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
How about this

A quick search on Audiogon filtered for price low to high: NAD C326BEE for $299, NAD C516BEE for $219, Focal Chorus V 806 for $400, or MA Silver RX-2 for $525, or B&W CM-1 for $575. All for sale right now. Those B&W's look gorgeous. Couldn't find the Marantz or Creek used. But an integrated is what I want, yes? It's a receiver minus the video processing crap. In general would I want the amp to be the DAC or should I let the cd player do that? Also, call me a noob still, but what does 'transport' mean?

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Integrated vs receiver

I specifically mentioned the Creek because it can have a tuner added to it very easily. If an FM Tuner is important, you want a stereo receiver, not an integrated amp.

You could check out accesories4less which is a clearance site for several manufacturers for new and refurbished gear. I just checked them out and they have the Marantz SR4023 and the Cambridge Audio Topaz SR10. They also offer Marantz and Cambridge CD players.

Unless you buy a unit that has a really sweet DAC in it like the Creek with a Ruby, The DAC in the CD player will be superior. This is specifically why I suggested that Marantz. Cambridge also makes a fine CD played and has a nice internal DAC. Also the DAC in the Marantz 6005 will be better than the one in the 5005.

Of the speakers you listed, the Silver RX-2s would be my choice. They will have the best range, are neutral without being bright and offer a good level of detail. That was the model that preceded the current Silver-2 line and I would say that they are a little less detailed but do sound fantastic. To beat those RX-2s, you would need B&W CM5s. The driver on the CM-1 simply isn't big enough.

I really like the way Focal speakers sound. Those 806v are great though the bottom end only goes to about 55hz while the Silver will drop to 40hz. I find music will sound hollow and a bit thin with less bass.

Also, a transport is merely a CD player that spins and reads the disc but does not do the DA conversion.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
See? This is why I like you,

See? This is why I like you, Mr. Bierfeldt, you saved a dope like me from buying an integrated thinking there was a radio in it. You learn something new every day. That Cambridge receiver looks cool. If I understand you right, in the lower end receiver department the CD player DAC rules the roost. So I take it you prefer the Marantz player over the NAD? I figured I couldn't go too wrong just looking for names I recognize on Audiogon at the cheaper end of things. Let's put it this way: my competition here is a Bose radio/cd that I'm told reads the disc 50% of the time. I told my mom it made a nice $400 doorstop. I'm thinking I might snag those RX-2's whether she ends up using them or not. Half off the best bookshelf in the $1000 range is a good deal IMO. I'm guessing stay away from Onkyo and Yamaha.....if there's any others that deserve honorable mention for crappiness let me know. thanks.

P.s. How do you post pics? I have some of my woodshop with the KEFs...thought some of you guys might get a kick out of the idiot with the $5000 system in a goddang dirty dusty woodshop :)

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
It does depend on the CD player

It really depends on the CD player which will be better. Marantz happens to make good CD players with a very strong DAC. In fairness, Cambridge and NAD also make really nice CD players with good DACs.

I am biased in favor of Marantz largely because three of four systems currently leverage Marantz DACs including my primary listening system. The closest item I have to what you are looking at is the Marantz M-CR510 network receiver which will play internet radio, pandora and Spotify. No FM tuner but a similar DAC to what is in those CD players and it doesn't sound good, it is great. I found it uncomfortably close to sounding as good as my Rega Brio R and Marantz Network player which was more than 2x as expensive. I have heard the Cambridge and NAD units and like them but I don't the same hours of listening experience and bluntly, chose Marantz equipment because I like it better.

Realistically, Cambridge is known for making an outstanding inexpensive DAC and I almost bought that NAD CD Player. It does sound great. You should be good with any one of the three.

Regarding those MA, the Silver RX-2s are not the Silver 2s. The Silver 2s offer quite a bit more detail. In fact, I would say that the RX-2s are a bit forgiving. I specifically listened to them side by side with PSB, Revel and Wharfedale speakers. Listening to Peter Gabriel's Don't Give Up off of Secret World Live, I could not hear the crowd applauding in the background of certain parts of the song that I could hear on the other speakers. The Silver 2s are much closer to the higher end Revel Performa3s and Wharfedale Jades.

Don't get me wrong about the RX-2s, they sound very good but aren't quite as revealing as the current Silver 2s.

I do not know how to post photos in the body of a post. You can post them over in Galleries which is where I have photos of a few of my systems.

I do not like Yamaha, Sony, Onkyo receivers. I find they lack the detail of Cambridge or Marantz. I actually like Denon very much and with Pioneer it depends on the model. One real gem that you might find used is the Harman Kardon 3490. It was truly a shame they discontinued it and the unit HK replaced it with was nowhere near as good.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Ok. Maybe i'll wait and see

Ok. Maybe i'll wait and see if a pair of Silver 2s show up on Audiogon. If I get my photos up in the gallery section I'll let you know. If nothing else it'll make you smile. Or maybe not at the thought of all that nice stuff getting dirty....:)

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Looking forward to the photos

Your setup works for you. That is what matters. As long as you enjoy it, who cares what room your in

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Finally figured out how to

Finally figured out how to get cell phone pics from phone to email to laptop to here. Yay. They're up in the home audio section of the Galleries. You wouldn't happen to know if there's a b-stock seller of MA like what accessories4less does w/KEF?

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Nice Photos

I am glad that you are happy with the system and everything worked out well. That has to be a wonderfully immersive experience.

Alternatively, I do not know who MA uses for clearance. Maybe check Crutchfield closeout section. I know they do some true clearance stuff

Allen Fant
Allen Fant's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 5 days ago
Joined: Sep 12 2010 - 3:42pm
Chuckles-

Chuckles-

I use a Pioneer Elite 59-AVi DVD player and it is a killer. Watch both Audiogon & eBay daily for the best deals.
I have mines connected to my Sony XBR CRT via a Wireworld Silver Starlight 5.2 HDMI and it is prefect.

pentode
pentode's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: May 10 2010 - 1:11pm
Better Over-the-Air Sound?

With many TV's having mediocre, noisy sound, or only headphone outputs, any suggestions for using external speakers and amplification?

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Depends on your AV source

My digital cable runs into a TIVO which I have running through my Pre/Pro and don't use the audio on my TV at all. If you don't have an AVR (No HDMI) most cable boxes and bluray players have digital coax or toslink outputs. Connecting those to a DAC and by extension to your primary audio system. Is that what you are thinking or are you looking to add a secondary Audio system to your TV?

pentode
pentode's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: May 10 2010 - 1:11pm
Kitchen TV

We perched a cheaper 32" TV on top of the fridge, mostly for news, education programming, and other non-critical watching. The built-in speakers are garbage; even my wife's keen hearing couldn't compute the unintelligible vocals of newscasters. I connected a used surround sub-woofer/speaker pair, to the headphone jack with good results. The audio is clear and full spectrum, but contains low-level noise noticeable only at low levels.

The set has two HDMI inputs; might they also provide digital audio out? I didn't get that impression from the literature, but being a digital dino I'm not sure what all HDMI can do for me.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
got it

I would try and intercept and process the audio signal prior to in reaching the television. Do you have a cable box or HD antenna and does it have a separate audio output? The TV seems to be what is screwing up your audio so lets see if we can simply bypass letting the TV process the audio.

pentode
pentode's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 1 week ago
Joined: May 10 2010 - 1:11pm
You're Probably Right, it sounds like digital hash

Some (or all) digital to analog TV converter boxes have L & R audio outs. I could look for one at the thrift shops. The only drawback is the most important switch on the remote won't work ... the MUTE, or volume, for that matter

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
i agree that it would be inconvenient

Your alternate solution with the headphone jack may be the best solution. At least it sounds better than the awful speakers that are built in.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
I'm with bierfeldt, use the headphone jack

So here's an off topic question: I'm aware separates are better than an all-in-one receiver. But, if I'm using my receiver to pass through a video signal, how would I transition from receiver to separates? This isn't something that's going to happen in the next 6 months or even year, but I'm assuming I'd need a pre-amp and multi-channel amp at a minimum. Right now my audio chain goes laptop - powered usb hub - dac - receiver, and my video/movie chain is dvd player - receiver - tv all via hdmi. Thoughts?

David Harper
David Harper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 5 hours ago
Joined: Aug 7 2014 - 2:23pm
connection

don't know if this will work for you - I've got my Panasonic plasma connected to a Denon AVR with an optical audio out from the tv to the AVR. The sound is amazing-much better than the tv's regular sound.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
pass through

I have never set up a system that would have a separate 2 channel preamp and a receiver. After doing a little reading though, you run preamp outputs from your receiver into the 2 channel preamp and then the two channel preamp is connected to a separate power amp. When the HT Bypass is activated, the 2 channel preamp passes an unaltered signal on to the power amp.

Any sources that you want to run exclusively in 2 channel would be attached to the 2 channel preamp. Any sources that run in multi-channel would be connected to the receiver.

In your case, your DAC would go into the 2 channel preamp while the DVD player would remain attached to the receiver.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Anything I do would have to be multichannel, right?

Forget the video half of the equation for a minute. In order to replace the receiver, (correct me if I'm wrong), I would need a preamp (multichannel?) and a power amp (definitely multichannel. I'm assuming to connect everything, it would go laptop to dac, dac to preamp via RCA, preamp to amp via I don't know what, then on to speakers.

Seems to me any signal from a dvd player would have to be split (audio from video) either at the dac, or I use some type of cable other than HDMI from the dvd, and send the video signal straight to the tv, and the audio to either the dac or preamp.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Adding a preamp for HT Bypass

You are correct. Now if I recall, due to your room, you always run in 5 channel.

Adding a preamp with home theater bypass only makes sense when you want a 2 channel system and multi-channel system leveraging the same power amps. If you are always going to listen in multi-channel then you would not add a separate 2 channel preamp.

In that case, you would need to find a multi-channel source output like an Oppo BDP 105d which has 7 channel analog outputs. You would run it into something like Parasounds Halo P7 preamp and then into a 5 or 7 channel power amp of your choice. This still might be an issue because the Parasound preamp lacks DSPs that will convert 2 channel audio into 5 or 7 channel audio. So if you run a 2 channel track to that system via your laptop, something needs to apply a DSP like Dolby ProLogic II to that 2 channel signal to convert it to 5 channel.

The alternative would need a pre/pro and separate power amp.. I am not certain this will be dramatically better than your existing NAD receiver unless you were to really spend. You could put together a Pre/Pro and power amp system for $2K today. You can get a refurbished Marantz AV7005 for $650 and a Marantz MM7055 5 Channel power amp for $1200 I think. I have an AV7005 paired with an MM8003 power amp driving my 7 channel home theater. This will sound great but not dramatically better than the very good AVR which you already have.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Ah. I see, said the blind man

Ah. I see, said the blind man. I suppose it would have helped if I had mentioned that on the front of my receiver there is a button marked "listening mode". I'm guessing this is a DSP or something like it. For music it is always set to "enhanced stereo" which seems to treat the front and rear lefts and rights as one speaker each, not two each. For movies it's set to Pro Logic II or whatever. Also, I have been operating under the assumption that my NAD was rather low- or entry-level. You speak rather highly of it, which makes me think separates aren't in my future.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Your NAD

You might have an "entry level" NAD receiver but nothing NAD makes is mediocre. I do believe that if you were to buy a good pre/pro like the AV7005 with a power amp that is superior to your NAD, you will get better results. The issue is, 5 and 7 channel power amps that are better than your NAD iare not inexpensive. Most of what you will get with sub $2K stuff that is "higher end" will be more power and features, but not better amplification.

If you paired an AV7005 with something like a Sunfitre TGA-7201 for $2500 would be a clear step forward. You might be able to find the Sunfire or something similar on audiogon for less, but you are looking at a solid $2K for a clear step forward fo a power amp and pre/pro assuming used and refurb gear.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
$2K?? I'll stay with my NAD, thanks

A ways back up this thread I asked about a quickie bookshelf system consisting of cd player, stereo receiver, and speakers. One of my many questions to you was which dac to use, the cd's or the receiver's. I just traded an older Yamaha receiver to a friend for a NAD 515 5-disc changer. It's from 1999, so I believe that makes it a relic. Works fine for how old it is. I'm going to use it in my bookshelf system, and here's my newest two questions: it occurred to me the easiest way to get a receiver for this setup would be to use the NAD I have already. I have the gain and decibel levels on the NAD's settings up a good bit, which makes me think it may be underpowered for my woodshop. So, would it be smart to go one or two steps up the NAD line for my shop and use the other for my new system? If I do that, do I use the cd's dac or the receiver's?

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Having a bit more power

Having a bit more power to drive those Kefs would not hurt. You will probably find that at a bit of volume, more power will help them open up and sound even better. Since you like NADs sound so much (and you should, it's great) stepping up in their line would be a fine approach.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Yay! I get to go equipment shopping

I'm going to assume the T748's dac will outperform whatever they used 17 years ago in their cd changer, so I'll run digital to the receiver. Thanks Bierfeldt! You're a hell of a guy, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 9 hours ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm
Happy holidays

I agree with you on the DAC. I believe the DAC in the receiver will be better.

If you celebrate Chritmas, Merry Christmas to you. If not, Happy Holidays and I wish well. Enjoy shopping.

chuckles304
chuckles304's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
Joined: Jan 4 2015 - 9:41am
Merry Christmas to you too!

Merry Christmas to you too!

  • X