linden518
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Balanced XLR vs Unbalanced RCA
Jeff Wong
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I'm not sure if it's truly balanced, but, you seem to use words like "amazing" whenever you mention the Pathos. I think that's your answer right there.

The benefit of balanced operation is common mode rejection and is probably worth exploring. In general terms, I can recall some reviews where the reviewer preferred single ended because it was livelier, but, it's hard to argue with built in noise reduction.

You might be loath to have a separate headphone amp, but, my thinking is if you're going to do headphones, do it right, and get a dedicated unit when funds allow. It's senseless to compromise enjoyment, especially when something like the Pathos has you hurling superlatives.

The Pathos will also allow you to try single ended and balanced and give you more options. But, these are just my two cents.

If I may throw in two more cents, you should probably be listening to a lot more gear before committing to these amps.

KBK
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IMHO, balanced cable or balanced runs are not beneficial in the short runs found in home audio gear, in general.

I'd say that the technical expertise and knowledge require to do justice in balanced in/out designs is not all that common.

In most gear, balanced design is not the entire signal path, from input to output, and to enable a balanced set of in/out (on a preamp, for example), adds a minimum of two layers (one on each end) of both amplification -or signal extraction and/or manipulation,and therefore constitutes a net loss in signal quality. In all seriousness, yes.

For some designs, there is a net benefit. For example, one that comes quickly to mind is the Pass series of 'supersymmetry' designed power amps (x150 through x1000, and their newer versions). They are fully balanced in design from end to end. This does not say that many others do not do this, or similar, but it is the first example that comes to this mind. Driven by a true balanced signal (in origin), there is likely to be nothing wrong with that.

Imagine placing a negative feedback buffer system, via the inclusion of a preamp at the input of a preamp,and then another at the output of the same preamp. So, two extra simple preamps, at either end of your preamp. More active electronic parts crap for your signal to go through and be manipulated by. To top it off, both are -relatively speaking- negative feedback, or comparative/adjusting circuits, of a sort, so they are engaging in active signal manipulation, not just simple re-transmission.

The result is more distortion, not less. There is potential for balanced to have a net signal quality increase in long runs and where noise and interference is generally found and CANNOT be immediately compensated for and needs be dealt with before it occurs, and that's an important consideration for professional environments. Ie, Make the damned thing sound good NOW type environments. Just because the pros use it, that does not mean it is really good, sonically, for high-end home audio reproduction systems. It's a case of incorrect mental association and clarity of understanding of what exactly is going on. Ie, the reasons behind the application of balanced audio in pro environments vs it's application in the home.

It can,and usually results in a ponderous bass heavy sonic signature, with slightly muted overall treble...but distorted 'ambience', and low-level detail which is slightly exaggerated via slurring (phase distortion, ie, time slurring and spreading, an effect which is barley measurable, if at all, as it concerns only the leading edge of transients and micro transients), which gives the false impression of increased detail.

This may sound like a rude thing to say, but it is in fact, true. So..'warm sonics' (slightly muted treble), 'powerful bass line' (due to the ear's comparison to "body" of the treble and/or higher frequency info)..and 'increased ambience detail and delineation' (damaged and slurred, in time, micro detail and transient edge information).

Funny, that's exactly the analysis of that kind of circuit, as a change in sonics..would bring to the table, with respect to analyzing it's predicted distortions.

If one puts away the slide ruler and the electronic instruments, and utilizes the understanding of the 'function of the human hearing mechanism'..which is a critical point, here...these points I've laid out become incredibly clear.

It's that standard mental thing of common human projection, in failing to recognize the existence and importance of the ear as the final arbiter and interpretive device, and that ear -which is highly non-linear- has almost nothing it does that is in direct correlation to the way we measure audio gear.

In essence, the "Balanced Signal Emperor" rarely wears any clothes.

Elk
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Finally someone agrees with me, understands that balanced is not inherently magic and recognizes that often balanced actually sounds worse than single ended.

By the way, it's not uncommon to find studios that are hardwired single ended as much as possible and balanced only when necessary.

OTOH, balanced is great in an electrically noisy environment - such as a live concert with PA systems. Lighting systems are especially problematic when trying to keep an audio signal clean.

There are, of course, manufacturers that do balanced right; e.g., BAT. Doing it right is expensive in both circuit design and parts.

KBK
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I've decided to bump this thread,as I feel it is important.

Some might feel I'm being harsh toward balanced as a design and effort in high-end audio. I'm not.

Here's the reasoning, and it has almost always been found to be true:

In the idea of human intelligence and ideas on beauty, etc..when you say that only 10% of a given population are smart, or intelligent..invariably....+75% of that population will think they are in that 10%.

As Dire Straits said in a song, "Two men say they're Jesus...one of them must be wrong."

In essence, I'm not leaving wiggle room, for everyone to think that their particular gear or their particular item they own is the perfect one. Otherwise everyone likes to think that they are the exception. Which is clearly untrue. Human nature.

What you end up with is human emotional justification, instead of basic reasoning skills applied. And if you give anyone the room, at all, even a chance of applying their desires to the given 'charged' situation before applying reason...they will. Almost every time.

Elk
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Additional past discussion of these issues: balanced v. unbalanced cables, etc.

linden518
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message rec'd, loud & clear. but does this logic still apply in hooking up yr soundcard, not some expensive component? if so, can you guys recommend me some good interconnect solutions for Lynx L22 and Echo Gina3G (which use balanced outputs) to hook up to unbalanced RCA input of an integrated amp? thanks!

P.S. - Elk: I guess the Ranes are pretty good?

http://www.lynxstudio.com/lynxl22.html

http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/PCI/Gina3G/index.php

Elk
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I suggest that you simply make a couple of cables connecting a 1/4 inch TRS (tip/ring/sleeve) balanced plug to a male single-ended RCA plug, making sure to connect the hot signal on the balanced 1/4" connector (the tip) to the hot (pin) on the RCA plug. Connect the ground (sleeve) on the TRS plug to the ground (sleeve) of the RCA.

(Some sources show connecting the cold balanced signal to ground when doing this. I recommend not grounding the cold (ring on the TRS) as this can be bad for some equipment. That is, simply don't connect anything to the cold/ring on the TRS plug.)

If you do some Googling you will find instructions or a diagram for what I am describing. It isn't as hard as it initially appears.

It is easy and you can make great cables with quality microphone cable.

I suggest using Mogami W2549 Balanced Mic Cable. Low capacitance, shielded, made to carry delicate little microphone level signals.

The cable comes in lots of different colors if you are so inclined.

Specs: http://www.mogamicable.com/Bulk/micr_cables/balanced_mic/balanced_mic.htm

A great source (good price, excellent service):
http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=493

Redco also has nice 1/4" connectors and RCAs.

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