Good question, and I got no answer - but I'll give one anyway I think a primary difference is that pro gear is built and MARKETED, first and foremost, for dependability/reliability - and for surviving rough handling, in the case of equipment that travels (for concerts, or remote recording, etc).
The audiophile gear is built and MARKETED for its sound quality, and with some attention to aesthetics.
There is no huge contradiction - you can have super reliability with super sound in theory - but designing for the different markets in the real world does generally sort it out into pro vs audiophile categories.

The difficulty in making a blanket comparison is that it greatly depends on what one means be "pro gear".

Sound reinforcement amps and speakers are excellent for their purpose; tough, powerful, affordable, bullet-proof, etc. However their ultimate sound quality is compromised for these purposes.

On the other hand, pro equipment used in good quality recording and mastering studios can be excellent. Moreover, it is common to see what we think of as audiophile amps and speakers in studios. For example, B&W 802s are readily used by mastering studios.

There is synergy the other direction as well. For example, the Benchmark DAC1 was common in studios and the audiophiles learned of it.

John Marks does a great job bringing good recording and monitoring gear to the attention of audiophiles in his column.

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rarely do you find audiophile-oriented reviews of pro gear.

There's a good reason for that.

That said, the magazine Pro Audio Review does audiophile-style assessments of pro gear. This is also a free magazine.

--Ethan

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rarely do you find audiophile-oriented reviews of pro gear.

There's a good reason for that.

That said, the magazine Pro Audio Review does audiophile-style assessments of pro gear. This is also a free magazine.

And they have an on-line version: Pro Audio Review The only downside with the digital version is that they don't always reprint the lab tests on-line (they like measurements).

I agree with you Elk. What's "pro" is as wide a term as anything else out there and subject to many different requirements. Ever go to a rock concert and realize your home system sounds 10 times better than the live one? Like 75% of the time for me! Even mostly acoustic jazz shows use some amps and reinforcement and it's not across the board great stuff.

I've worked with many A/V studios and sometimes the setup is quality (rare) and sometimes it sucks (usually) simply because most studios are like most carpentry shops: bang it out and send the bill ASAP. They are not about lovingly attending to every detail because it's expensive to own good pro gear, expensive to have qualified people to run it and time consuming to utilize it. Plus, most clients don't know or care enough to pay for all the above. They just want "good enough" when it comes right down to it.

Of course not all are like that- and you have fantastic pro gear too--- but don't count on getting it any cheaper than the high-end audio consumer gear! And definitely don't think your wife is going to let you stack it up in the living room!!!

The previous reference to Pro-Audio Review entced me to go there and look around. I found a reference to Dunalvy Speakers used in recording studios. Since I have Dunlavys I pursued this link. It came from a review of Lipinski Monitors, that used the Dunlavy SM-1s as an inspiration for their design. Following the link to the Lipinski site lead to reviews of their speakers, and beleive it or not, a stunning review of these same Lipinski speakers in the pages of,.. Stereophile!!
Yes good equipment is good equipment, "no matter how small!"

Duntech (John's original company) and Dunlavy have been popular in recording studios and mastering studios for years. Duntech Sovereigns are still available from Duntech Australia ($33,500.00)

Like the SM-1's, the Lipinski's do not go down low (only to 60hz or so) so they need to be paired with a good, well-integrated subwoofer or, even better, two.

I have a pair of Dunlavy SC-IVa's. Which Dunlavy do you have?

I just addressed the same situation as you are talking about (just posted my solution on the Newbie section). Picked up an Apogee Duet for $495. Firewire cable from my Macbook into the Duet - gets it power from the cable, patch it straight into my power amp. Comes with software to manage to functions. Sound great. I'm taking my CD, CD changer, and old integrated preamp upstairs to the bedroom.

Apogee Duet

How can a home system sound better than a band playing live ?

The reinforced sound typical of a venue is real live music, how can a reproduction sound better ?

The energy, distortions etc are what make live music so real, there is just no way to reproduce that at home

Alan

pro audio gear over audiophile for obvious reasons: more science and less snake oil. But sometimes is hard do adapt pro gear to home environment.

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pro audio gear over audiophile for obvious reasons: more science and less snake oil.

You obviously have not spent any time reading the trade magazines. No group is immune from the corrosive effects of snake oil.

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pro audio gear over audiophile for obvious reasons: more science and less snake oil.

You obviously have not spent any time reading the trade magazines. No group is immune from the corrosive effects of snake oil.

To add, Snake oil is also one of the most potent and effective preventatives/curatives ever known.

The story comes from the unscrupulous folks who would pretend to be selling authentic Native 'snake oil' when in fact it was just diluted alcohol based crap, no snake oil of any kind. The legend of Native curative 'snake oil' healing powers...is what created the liars and thieves.

Authentic snake oil is an awesome thing.

Indeed. I have made this point a number of times.

It's even scientifically verifiable. Even when both the snake and the recipient are blindfolded in a double-blind test.

I really like this topic. Although I have a small home theater business I have installed several PA systems in churches. It is true - there is good pro stuff out there - but much of what gets used in PA applications is not near the quality of a good home system. That being said, I often use some "home gear" in PA systems. In the last church I did we used speaker drivers often found in home systems to make the main line-arrays.

Fun to know.

Creativity and care (an enough money) must be the reasons that some PA systems sound fantastic.

Hi

I still have strong thoughts that a very high quality pro amp such as a Crown CTS 2000 for $1500 can run rings around a Krell/Mac/Levinson for $10,000.

Definetly the low level sound reinforcement type gear is not going to sound good but the high level pro audio gear is typically built by the same people who designed and built high level home gear. A good example being Crown/JBL building Mark Levinson gear, the only difference being one got a simple black box and costs $1500, one got a shiny polished box and a name plate and costs $10,000

Alan

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I still have strong thoughts that a very high quality pro amp such as a Crown CTS 2000 for $1500 can run rings around a Krell/Mac/Levinson for $10,000.

I wish.

But if your ears tell you this, buy the Crown.

Elk

Im very openminded about this stuff.

Have you ever actually compared side by side a top Crown amp with a Mark Levinson or something similar ? I have and its a close call, they are different but as to which is better its subjective. Comparing either to a lower quailty amp from the pro world or hifi world does show the qualities of the higher end products.

Im just curious if your applying a hifi bias to your thoughts ?

Alan

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Have you ever actually compared side by side a top Crown amp with a Mark Levinson or something similar ?

Yes (as has already been discussed previously a number of times).

Sound reinforcement amps, particularly those of high power, have a crunchy, crispy sound. It's apparently the trade off for inexpensive reliable watts.

It makes my ears bleed.

But, if you like this sound go for it.

Sorry i'm late jumping into this conversation, but I thought it was an extrermemly interesting topic. It's pretty simple actually and not really a matter of opinion. I can put it best if I say it like this: Pro gear is "utilitarian" where high end home audio is more so a "delicacy". Pro audio is designed to be cut throat and simple. All of the "beauty" comes from post production that has very very little to do with componentry design but has to do more so with the "post artist" (the engineer). Much much more 'thought and consideration' regarding design and "sound Process" goes into high end home audio. I could go on and get more technical but as I mentioned, it's pretty cut and dry. What qualifies this observation? ..... aside from being a die hard HiFi enthusiast/audiophile blahblahblah, I have over a decade as a music industry executive and a published songwriter/producer(currently) and have 'participated' in and produced many countless recording sessions with many known recording artists but even better, some of the industries most amazing post engineers to date. Please forgive me if this sounds like a pump me up session; it's not, I just wanted you guys to know I'm not talking out of my butt!...... Home AUdio over Pro Gear!!

So why aren't studio engineer artistes using high end HiFi gear in their studios to do mixdowns? Maybe the idea of spending $10,000 on a single stereo amplifier with THD and noise figures no different to a decent rack mount pro amp doesn't make much sense to a guy who has to make a living using the amplifier. He might be able to buy a bunch more studio gear with the money he'd have left over from buyng a pro amp.

The fact is that all the delicacy in the world isn't worth the price difference. As I have said in other posts, high end (should say "needlessly high priced") audio equipment is for dummies who can be flim flammed out of their hard-earned cash.

Someone wanting to equip a business won't be buying. The tragedy is that the high enders somehow believe that they can extract a REAL LIVE performance out of their gear.

Sorry to say, the recording you're listening to has passed through the tiny wires and conductors of a thousand different machines before it reaches your ears. None of it, bar the last two or three can be classified as "Audiophile" grade equipment.

Instead, it is "Professional" grade machinery that has been chosen and purchased because it could do the job asked of it, not because some vacuous HiFi reviewer with practically no understanding of the technical issues has given it a gold star (ear) rating in return for a bit of cash in his pocket (or some other amenable consideration). Oh but it's got "LiniPur" conductors!..........

One born every minute.

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So why aren't studio engineer artistes using high end HiFi gear in their studios to do mixdowns?

As I have pointed out many times, it is common for them to do so. Pass Labs, Chord, Gamut amps are popular - as are B&W speakers, Dynaudio and others. Then we get into the expensive stuff, like Duntech Soverigns.

Mixing engineers also often use active monitors with built in amplification specifically designed for the speakers. These are far from cheap. Meyer, Barefoot, etc. fit into this camp. It is easy to spend serious money on these as well.

Mastering engineers rarely use self-powered, feeling that the best sound comes from passive speakers with carefully chosen separates (sound familiar?).

Keep in mind however that mixing engineers are more concerned with the integrity of the signal itself. They are trying to present the best possible signal to the next guy in line, the mastering engineer. Thus, more money goes into mixing boards (these things can easily top $100k), good ADCs and DACs (also pricey), mic pres, etc., than basic amplification. It may surprise many, but studios often even pay attention to cable dressing, clean power (even using conditioners!), etc.

What you typically won't find are inexpensive PA amps such have been discussed here. Of course, there are exceptions, but they simply do not provide good sound - and the big boys know this as well as we do.

OTOH, if you like the sound of "pro" PA amps for listening at home, good for you! You will be able to find sound that pleases you for relatively little money, will probably never run out of power, and will have a robust amp or two that will easily survive anything that you throw at it.

There were three people in the church I attended while in the Nashville area who worked in sound studios. Two of them put new boards in while I was there. The price to performance balance was a concern. They purchased the best they could afford at the time then

Good point. There are a lot of studios with modded boards and other equipment; the goal is the best possible sound.

The vast majority of people in studios disparately care about sound quality and are on a constant quest for those products that sound the best.

Does anyone know whether Lipinski Soound is out of business?
I tried to phone them at their offices in Massachusetts and there is no way of leaving a message.....no live people answer....just automated answering and their system wont accept any messages.

Lanny

It's a very small business, but odd you can't leave a message.

It would be very said if they are gone. Amazing speakers.

Actually after living with high-end audio equipments for more than 20 years now I am using pro audio at home.

My last system was Audio Note Kageki, Accuphase DP-100/DC-101, Avantgarde Trio, etc. It was changed to MC2 Audio MC1250 pro amp, Danley 100B (SH 50 as well) PA speaker and a Macbook to Altmann Attraction DAC through a TCElectronic Konnekt 8 as a Firewire to SPDIF converter. All my bloody expensive cables were changed to Evidence Audio pro cables as well, including the mains cable.

Can not be happier. Does not matter what I play, plays everything from Albinoni to Zappa according to my taste. It has drama and fun, like no system from my personal hifi history.

The MC2 amps and Danley speakers are true classical, the latter is one of the most exciting speaker construction I know of.

YMMV of course.

Cool!

Why do you like your current setup better?

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Cool!

Why do you like your current setup better?

More musical generally. Can play any kind of music, on any volume. Quite friendly to even the modern dynamically very compressed recordings.

Has more life. Live recordings are really amazing. Dynamics, coherency like nothing else in my life earlier.

Too much difference to tell. Suites my taste way better. It seems.

I used to rebuild and modify stage gear and recording audio gear for performers and pros for free, as a service to the music.

I wanted them to enjoy what I enjoyed from it, for the same reasons: It serves the music.

Simple, don't confuse live sound gear with that of a recording/mastering studio's. They both are considered ProAudio but have very different demands. We are focusing on fidelity so let's only compair what's used in the studio vs what's used in a live venue. The concerns of the studio gear is that it's clean and flat. No hype. (Hopefully) Very few unicorns (snake oil) is usually involved in a studio because typically we have a better grasp of what is the most important piece of gear. Of course we are talking about the room. If it's not right* it doesn't matter what you have in it. (*right can be a vague term but very measurable)
Recording studio gear can and does make great listening gear in a home. (I hate to generalize because there is a lot of studio gear now that's junk so I'll focus on quality pieces as a generalization of studio gear) The only problems being perhaps an issue of pro audio levels (+4 vs consumer -10), aesthetics (does it look good next to my Hello Kitty couch in my living room?) and lastly is it a balanced connection? (Short runs always benefit from unbalance unless you have noisy AC power around, less parts)
One point brought up also is the fact that it's pretty standard now to have self powered monitors in the studio since 1989 (Meyer Sound HD-1, the consumer market is just catching on to that now. (Although John Dunlavy had been researching that idea as far back as 1999 but never came out with it)
So yep. I've always thought it was a very viable and better then average way to go.
Cheers

Dc2light wrote,

"Simple, don't confuse live sound gear with that of a recording/mastering studio's. They both are considered ProAudio but have very different demands. We are focusing on fidelity so let's only compair what's used in the studio vs what's used in a live venue. The concerns of the studio gear is that it's clean and flat. No hype. (Hopefully) Very few unicorns (snake oil) is usually involved in a studio because typically we have a better grasp of what is the most important piece of gear. Of course we are talking about the room. If it's not right* it doesn't matter what you have in it. (*right can be a vague term but very measurable)."

Question, when you say no snake oil is used in the studio are you referring to things like Mpingo discs, expensive high end cables, power conditioners, isolation control, room treatments (I mean other than Sonex), expensive power cords, things of that nature? Or are you referring to something even more unconventional?

Cheerios

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I have listened to a number of hi end expensive home audio and most of it sounds great. Well recently I was in the market for a new amp and after doing some extensive research I could not find a reason to spend 20 or 30k on a home amp. The pro audio had the same or better stats on paper so I decided to try it. I went on ebay and bought a QSC powerlte 2.0HV amp. I hooked it up and I couldn't believe how clear and sweet it sounded. The amp is awesome 650wpc at 8ohm am 1000wpc at 4ohm.I wanted a good amount of power so I never have to push the amp. I have a pair of eminent technology LP3 speakers that can handle 500w+. For $400 I got better sound and power than anything I had heard at my friends appointment only audio for 20 plus times the price. In hi end audio you get super overcharged because its brilliantly marketed and once we spend a ton of money on something we are unable to really see it for what it is. Go buy a used good quality pro amp from ebay and put it to the test against your overpriced amp get ready for a big surprise.

I have listened to a number of hi end expensive home audio and most of it sounds great. Well recently I was in the market for a new amp and after doing some extensive research I could not find a reason to spend 20 or 30k on a home amp. The pro audio had the same or better stats on paper so I decided to try it. I went on ebay and bought a QSC powerlte 2.0HV amp. I hooked it up and I couldn't believe how clear and sweet it sounded. The amp is awesome 650wpc at 8ohm am 1000wpc at 4ohm.I wanted a good amount of power so I never have to push the amp. I have a pair of eminent technology LFT3 speakers that can handle 500w+. For $400 I got better sound and power than anything I had heard at my friends appointment only audio for 20 plus times the price. In hi end audio you get super overcharged because its brilliantly marketed and once we spend a ton of money on something we are unable to really see it for what it is. Go buy a used good quality pro amp from ebay and put it to the test against your overpriced amp get ready for a big surprise.

I use both Professional & Home gear. Makes no difference after a unit is properly tuned to the recording and the room is tuned to the music.

As said above, it's really more about someone knowing what they are doing. I have traded back and forth in the Home, Studio and Mastering room, depending on what we are going for.

Just as a note though: even way back in the 70's when I would be setting up a studio, the first thing I would do to the amps is remove their covers, take off their feet, snip the wire harness and loosen their transformers, before putting them in the rack. For studio use, all that stuff used to tighten them down during shipping gets removed. Audiophiles have a bad habit of leaving their components setup for shipping mode, never thinking about using that component the way it was designed before shipping. What's worse is the audiophile world built myths around amps that are in shipping mode, as if that was part of the design. A very weird crowd sometimes lol.

Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Good to see you- MG.
are you working to update your website?
There are many threads that are quite old/ without newer information.

Probably better off using home gear for the home if you want it to sound "good."
Use pro gear if you intend to play your guitar along with it at concert volume.
Different needs entirely for the most part.

I've been using some studio gear recently and it has been ear-opening. :-)

Welshsox wrote:

Hi

I still have strong thoughts that a very high quality pro amp such as a Crown CTS 2000 for $1500 can run rings around a Krell/Mac/Levinson for $10,000.

I think you don't know what you're talking about, Allen. I've heard some pro gear that is audiophile quality (Crown crossover, Rane equalizer, Benchmark DAC), but I've also heard some pro gear (Crown XLS series) that is glassy, low resolution, and that homogenizes the treble. Don't get me wrong - the Crown XLS series amps aren't BAD (in fact, they're good enough for HT work), but "audiophile?" They aren't even close.

And "audiophile" sound has to do with voicing - not expense. The Emotiva, Odyssey, and even NuPrime power amps are inexpensive, yet are voiced for music - not for stadium reproduction.

Cordially - Boomzilla

There is the question: "If there is a difference between audiophile and professional audio equipment?" The answer is “Yes”. This is because all those two types of equipment have been developed to serve different purposes.
When comes to audiophile purpose, we are talking about the individual who comes home, sits on his sofa or chair and starts listening to beautiful representation of the sound which comes through speakers. Here, the music is meant to please listener’s ear, by adding extra kick into the bass while making mids smooth and highs airy.
However, when it comes to professional use, audiophile sound setup is generally highly unwelcomed. Why? This is because to the professional ear most audiophile systems deliver “Sweet Lies”. They don’t bring “actual sound”. While using strictly audiophile system, it is hard to pinpoint multiple mistakes present in the lousy made audio record. No, when it comes to professional equipment, we are talking about equipment which “Doesn’t Lie”. In this case, there is not going to be emphasis on bass and low mids. And overall sound is not going to be silky. It is going to be very and very plain which allows the professional audio engineer hear loud and clear every little nuance hidden within the audio. Only by the use of that kind of boring sounding equipment the professional can do perfect, correcting, mixing and mastering of the audio record. In this case the goal of the sound engineer should lies on making every audio record sound wonderful even through plain sounding professional system. Once the work is done, it is more than welcome to be tried on audiophile system where there is no doubt it will shine.
Can the audio system be both audiophile and professional? Yes, it can. What makes that system is so attractive to both professional workers and individuals who listen to the music mainly for joy is the incredible realism within the sound which that very system delivers. As the rule, that system is very expensive and not easily to be found. For me it took more than 10 years to find that audio system, which I use both for studio work and music joyful listening. And I found it only through the professional individual, my vocal teacher, audio advisor, and dear friend, Jacob.

Rusty, you are confusig "consumer" grade low/mid-fi (spotify and mp3s sounds great) gear to audiophile high-end gear (you can hear the difference between cd and sacd). Audiophiles don't want coloured music, they want as real as it gets clear sound.

Both types of gear are designed to give exceptionally high quality, but suit very different jobs.

In Pro Audio, Live gear needs to be tough. Studio gear - on the other hand - needs to be sterile; this type of gear is generally built to help the engineer produce a good mix across a range of end user devices. Some listeners (aka customers) will use audiophile gear, some may be listening in their cars. Others may be using ear buds, or a mono blue tooth speaker. Chances are, that mix will be heard across all of these devices. If an engineer was mixing a record through giant, beautifully performing audiophile speakers, the engineer wouldn't get a good idea of how that mix would transfer over to a laptop speaker. So, pro gear (at least in terms of a DAC, amp, and speakers) are generally known for not "coloring" the sound and rather behaving "out-of-the-way" of the sound.

Audiophile gear is designed to make things sound even better; smooth highs, fat lows, etc. This kind of coloring can be highly useful in this case because the user is only using it to listen back with.

You certainly could use pro audio gear in an audiophile capacity, and you would end up getting a sound that is closer to how the engineer mixed it, but remember that mix is the "average". For home audio, go with audiophile equipment and enjoy the coloration :-)