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michael green
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Audio Math

I'd like to share with you some audio math. No this isn't about spread sheets, or room analyzing. This is an easy to follow formula that anyone can use to improve the sound.

Guys looking to buy may want to read this cause it could change the way you look at your purchase. Guys looking at their system wondering why, may also find use with this.

Lets start with your fuse box or circuit panel. Go to your panel and open up the door. What your looking at is the beginning of your system. You've heard people say dedicated line? Tell me on this panel where the dedicated line is? Looks to me like all the connections go to the same source. Truth is there is no such thing as a dedicated line unless you have a separate box with separate meter. Fact is each load in your house is part of your audio system. Don't believe me, turn off and have your electrician come over and unhook all the wires except the one or ones heading to your system, we did. The difference to the sound is one of the biggest eye openers you will have heard in years. Slowly put back in each wire on the panel, and you will hear how much even the wire without any current will affect the sound. I would say shocking but that would be in poor taste. The safer way is to trust that we did this for you. The way your panel is mounted, the way your fuses are plugged in, where your wires are at, the wire size and makeup, the route they take through your house, all have a great affect on your sound. If your wire is too insulated or out of balance size wise with the rest of your system you are going to loose some audio signal. In audio, bigger is not better, balance is. The closer you can get to using the same guage throughout your system the better the sound will be. Not saying you will be able to do this, but I use 22 guage throughout my setup or as close to as I can. If your electrician can balance the wires going into the panel so that the wires are spaced more evenly and without tention on them your sound will open up.

still on the electrical

Notice how much the sound improved? Now lets take a look at the system from a math point of view. In audio we have all kinds of shapes and sizes, but without you getting all tied up let me share a couple of thoughts with you. There is one part in every audio system that provides a necessity, but also generates fields that can distort the signal greatly, the transformer. The fewer of these power plants you have in your system the cleaner the signal will be. Add this with me. Circuit panel outputs, wall outlets, appliances, audio system power cords, multiplug extentions, line conditioning. All of these add up to noise.

Let's say you have an audio system that has two sources, a phono pre, preamp, mono blocks and sub amp. That's 7 transformers. We're not done Line conditioning and or power strip or strips, wall outlets. Just from a math point of view lets put this up against a two component system, source and amp. No conditioning or strips and only one outlet. The bigger system has 5 times more electrical/mechanical/magnetic interference going on.

now lets add the speakers and crossovers

Lets say on a two way simple system the drivers and cabinet were well matched and you used only a cap and resistor per. This gives you 4 motors (the magnets). On your more complicated system, you have your sub or subs, maybe panel speakers or maybe a 4 way. Lets go with the 4 way. Two coils per speaker and 4 magnets per. In this case (if using two subs) your using again 5 times the amount of interference.

This is just the electrical.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Michael, better keep out the illegal changes

I dunno how it works in the US but here in Europe tampering with the distribution box is kind of illegal. The best thing I could do for my system was, as you said, to have a dedicated line with dedicated fuses, and nice copper wiring in between those fuses and the wall outlets. Anything more would put me straight in the middle of a lawsuit.

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electricians

Yep, with anything electrical, you need to follow the rules. Here it's not so bad to find better sounding circuit panels and have them installed by your electrician. Same goes for the routing of the wire and outlet. Everything can be done to code. Someone who spends 5 grand and up on an amp certainly needs to look into having an audio grade circuit box installed. The difference is amazing! Here in the states the panels are inexpensive and the ones I use sound fantastic.

This is another reason for people to go with less transformers. A lot of electrical panels, wire and outlets can be choked out easily by too many transformers on the line. Many times line conditioners create even more of a problem. Listeners especially in the high end start at the outlet, but don't pay attention to the beginning of the power chain. They think the bigger the transformer the better the control, but this is false. The bigger the transformer the harder the panel has to work. The circiut panel is a power distribution center that can get out of balance by the different loads that are placed on it. Every where there is a twist turn or connection all the way through the audio chain the sound is affected.

michael green
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Math for quantum mechanics

At chez Machina Dynamica we remove the ferrous panel door and replace it with a non-ferrous one. We also carefully attach WA Quantum Cable Chips to the incoming wires at the breaker for the audio system and to the breaker itself. If one is not inclined to replace the panel door simply keeping it open during critical listening sessions might be of some advantage.

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Geoff Kait
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How can you be in two places at once when you're really nowhere at all?

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I asked my accountant what my taxable income was.......

He asked me.....

"What do you want it to be?"

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michael green
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too much

So yes, some people are going to come up and say their piece about any topic, but I'm interested in those of you who are taking this hobby more serious and to the next level. We all know that someone can stop where ever they want along this path, put a stake in the ground and say I'm here. That's cool and if you are one of those I'm happy for you, but what about the guys who do want to go further? This is for them.

It's easy enough to replace your system with one that is simpler and experience what the others have who are doing this same thing. People who may down play this are those who aren't doing, and I for one am interested in the ones who are doing and want to do.

No one in this industry has ever shown me or the others who practice simplicity that the more complicated systems will out perform the simple designs, no one. In fact the opposite is true. Those who have over built multiple power supplied systems after going side by side go with the more simple fewer supplies.

There comes a point when there is too much going on in a system and the balance gets out of whack. People get all excited about the component side of what is going on and this becomes their focus instead of a system where every part works as a team. Thousands of hobbyist have fallen prey to the over building, and there is a way out. Great part to this is the way out doesn't cost much more than the pride swallowed.

So for those of you who have bought into the bigger and more is better, and you are sitting there unhappy with the sound, I am hear to tell you there is another way and it is going simple. Let those who defend the big systems say what they will, their not in your room. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ is a place where you can read about those who are having success with their sound, and most of these are people who have gone the route of the over built.

No matter how many shades get thrown at you from audiophiles wishing to make a point, based on where they are in their hobby there is always a way to go further and get more. You need only the desire to "Try" and then "DO".

michael green
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Macro and Micro
michael green wrote:

So yes, some people are going to come up and say their piece about any topic, but I'm interested in those of you who are taking this hobby more serious and to the next level. We all know that someone can stop where ever they want along this path, put a stake in the ground and say I'm here. That's cool and if you are one of those I'm happy for you, but what about the guys who do want to go further? This is for them.

It's easy enough to replace your system with one that is simpler and experience what the others have who are doing this same thing. People who may down play this are those who aren't doing, and I for one am interested in the ones who are doing and want to do.

No one in this industry has ever shown me or the others who practice simplicity that the more complicated systems will out perform the simple designs, no one. In fact the opposite is true. Those who have over built multiple power supplied systems after going side by side go with the more simple fewer supplies.

There comes a point when there is too much going on in a system and the balance gets out of whack. People get all excited about the component side of what is going on and this becomes their focus instead of a system where every part works as a team. Thousands of hobbyist have fallen prey to the over building, and there is a way out. Great part to this is the way out doesn't cost much more than the pride swallowed.

So for those of you who have bought into the bigger and more is better, and you are sitting there unhappy with the sound, I am hear to tell you there is another way and it is going simple. Let those who defend the big systems say what they will, their not in your room. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ is a place where you can read about those who are having success with their sound, and most of these are people who have gone the route of the over built.

No matter how many shades get thrown at you from audiophiles wishing to make a point, based on where they are in their hobby there is always a way to go further and get more. You need only the desire to "Try" and then "DO".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

There are thirteen ways of looking at a Blackbird. If you wish to use mathematics to analyze the room or the dynamic range or say the analyze the effectiveness of isolation devices mathematically I'm down. But I'm also down for mathematically analyzing what's going on inside the CD player, you know, while it is operating. The mathematics of how the CD is read by the laser, the mathematics of CD lasers themselves which are in fact quantum mechanical devices, the physics of light, the mathematics of the Intelligent Chip, quantum superposition, the mathematics of Helmholtz Resonators like the tiny little bowls, the mathematics of calculating electron drift in copper conductors. I'm down for all of those things.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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the door is open

Hi Geoff

The door is wide open. I'm interested in seeing views from any angle anyone wants to share. For me personally I'm more interested in the showing of things, and how they affect the sound as you have seen me talk about on other threads, but that's just what I like to do. The doors open here for whatever math you or anyone wishes to present, however don't be shocked if someone maybe even me asks you to show this in action in a system.

For example the door opening tweak is a good one, would you show us how you apply the formula you showed to your experimenting with the panel door and the Chip? I'm assuming that you have used this formula as a guide in the designing and testing since your referencing it. With it being this sophisicated it would be good to see how this formula comes into play with the tweaks and products that you mentioned.

For myself, when I have been in the lab with science and math guys, the classroom didn't make sense to me until we got in the actual lab and looked at what the teachers were talking about. I'm not sure what others here think but I have always been a hands on guy and only felt comfortable if a formula was able to play a part in the actual real time testing. Even with math being my best subject I always felt there was some gray area between the numbers and the actual perseptive application. I looked at this as, are we using the numbers to get where we are going or are the numbers really only there to show us where we have been? And with audio, showing us where we have been only at that moment of the testing, and in some way does the formula give room to motion and change?

When testing formulas for the using of the formula to the end, instead of the other way around, I found that the formulas (as they apply to audio) get us close, but not right on the money. With audio test results I feel the same way. A test result has a much narrower perspective if someone is to then turn it around and use it for a formula. In other words the tests results were meant to show a particular moment in time and space (space being the environment). I don't want to necessarily jump off topic here, but would love the have some interaction about testing itself as I started a thread on here but no one came to play :( Oh well, I guess I'll have to live in a world of audiophiles asking for white sheets when they are themselves are not white paper educated, Not refering to you Geoff, but those who have asked for my white papers and then go running when I start to get into them. Kinda funny really.

anyway back on topic, yes please do show the formula in action on your chip and panel tweak

thanks

michael green
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She's given me a WA WA

Michael, I have the definitive explanation for how the Intelligent Chip works on my web site at:

Www.machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm

That explanation may or may not apply to the WA Quantum Chips that I use at the breaker panel. In fact, I am not 100% sure what is contained in WA Quantum Chips, only a hunch. I suspect WA chips contain quantum dots like my super intelligent chip. I suspect the manufacturer of WA chips found the secret for TUNING the things for specific applications - conductors, inductors, capacitors, etc. just as I TUNE the Super Chip for it's intended purpose. That is the key feature of quantum dots - that they are TUNABLE. They can be designed, grown actually, so they radiate at specific PRE-PLANNED wavelengths. And these PRE-PLANNED wavelengths INTERACT with physical objects as well as energy. Thus, these chips we're talking about can change matter and energy by INTERACTING with them.

This is the blurb from The Cable Company taking about the WA Quantum Chips:

"High tech company, WA-Quantum, from Berlin, Germany, has introduced "bio-energetic chips" for the audio/video market. These chips are in fact small pieces of a synthetic material, encased in what outwardly appears to be an adhesive-backed "sticker" that can be fixed to audio components and cables. According to the manufacturer, the chip influences the efficiency of current flow and signal transmission on a subatomic level in accordance with the principles of quantum physics.

The chips come in multiple types for specific applications. Not only do the types differ in size and price; each is specifically programmed with a certain application in mind. Specific chips for fuses, capacitors, transformers, tone arms and cartridges, cables, loudspeakers and even MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS are available. Even just a single or small number of chips will be sufficient to raise the performance of any audio and video system to a higher level, and the manufacturer offers a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so that you can prove it to yourself!

Many users have tested the chips and continuously express their amazement and enthusiasm. To summarize the feedback we have received, as well as the results of our own in-house listening tests: applying the chips yields a more relaxed and NATURAL sound. A very striking feature is that musical lines can be heard with improved separation, allowing for a deeper insight into the music. Individual instruments and voices have better definition. UNNATURAL hardness and electronic artifacts are reduced. Also, IMAGING is considerably improved ; voices and musical instruments are positioned in the soundstage with better focus. DYNAMICS are also improved. All of this leads to a more involving presentation."

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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didn't see any math

I'm sorry, I thought you were going to show some math.

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What math would you like to see?

I already showed the Schroedinger equation. What else do you want?

I also told you in words the equation for isolation effectiveness. Do you really need to see a formula? Maybe an equation for electron drift velocity would tickle your fancy. Just let me know. Do you like long equations or short equations? Do you like equations that take up a whole page? Do you like equations with lots of exponents? Me, too. Do you like transcendental equations? Me, too. Do you like simultaneous equations? How about differential equations? Ain't it interesting how the hobby of audio actually touches a wide range of sciences, electronics, mechanics, quantum mechanics, physics, neuroscience, psychology, metaphysics?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Oh ok thanks for being down

thanks Geoff

When people are listening they talk about the fundamentals. Part of this is realizing and identifying the intervals. You like using wiki so here is the def,

In music theory, an interval is the difference between two pitches. An interval may be described as horizontal, linear, or melodic if it refers to successively sounding tones, such as two adjacent pitches in a melody, and vertical or harmonic if it pertains to simultaneously sounding tones, such as in a chord.

As you read further http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music) you get into cents and other measurements.

If you would I would like you to take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic as well.

Geoff, how do you mathematically account for the "inbetween" in intervals and harmonic structures?

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Memories are made of this
michael green wrote:

thanks Geoff

When people are listening they talk about the fundamentals. Part of this is realizing and identifying the intervals. You like using wiki so here is the def,

In music theory, an interval is the difference between two pitches. An interval may be described as horizontal, linear, or melodic if it refers to successively sounding tones, such as two adjacent pitches in a melody, and vertical or harmonic if it pertains to simultaneously sounding tones, such as in a chord.

As you read further http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music) you get into cents and other measurements.

If you would I would like you to take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic as well.

Geoff, how do you mathematically account for the "inbetween" in intervals and harmonic structures?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I have a feeling you would really like the whole idea that the Belts put forth regarding music, including the intervals and notes and so on, much of which has to do with MEMORY. I know what you're thinking, what is he TALKING about? What does MEMORY have to do with ANYTHING, right? The reason that music makes any sense at all when you're listening to it is because you store the music information in SHORT TERM MEMORY and extrapolate and interpolate, as necessary, all the notes and intervals like a Fourier analysis, like a computer with a MEMORY. This is why you tap your foot when listening to MUSIC, because it is all being put together via memory as an INTEGRATED sound with rhythm and pace, things which are functions of time. It is the combination of the notes you heard one second ago, five seconds ago, one minute ago along with the notes you are hearing at this moment, PRESENT TIME, that make up the MUSIC. You do not listen to musical notes in a vacuum as it were. You respond emotionally to certain music because of long term memory, because you've heard the music before or it elicits an emotional response because of its similarity to a memory of something, could be another song or perhaps an event in your PAST. And you can sing or PLAY favorite songs because you can REMEMBER all the notes, the sequence of all the notes! and all the intervals, you know, from MEMORY. You can do the same trick with movies, you can remember certain scenes, the dialog, even extended scenes and dialog, even what the actors were wearing, the surroundings, the colors involved because of MEMORY. Be sure to ask May and Peter to chime in on this discussion.

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Geoff I can barely remember my name Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Intelligent Chip math

Geoff,

We have discussed your intelligent chip white paper on the snake oil thread and you concluded that it based on theory, at best.

The entire premise of the chip is to permanently improve the transparency of the polycarbonate surface.

Where's the tested and verifiable math?

Also, any white papers on WA chips. The best I have been able to find is marketing oriented writeups and user reviews ... Some of the user reviews end with the fate of many tweaks in that they initially heard a difference but after some time pulled the WA chips out of their system and preferred the sound without them.

Toledo asked -

Quote:

From your white paper you state
"The clear polycarbonate layer in commercial off-the-shelf CDs has a transparency of only around 92%."

How was this transparency figure arrived at? If the original transparency can be calculated, what is the transparency after treatment? Can you provide the test results?

This seems like a rather simple before/after test to confirm that the permanence of the quantum superposition effect is actually permanent. It is rare to find such an easily testable and verifiable scenario in quantum mechanics.

Geoff responded -

Quote:

We do not do testing of transparency here at Chez Machina Dynamica. Are you volunteering? Think of the transparency theory as what it is, a theory. Please don't report me to AES. You might well be correct, that's it's an easy test to perform. I should also point out that testing of products and testing of theories is probably best performed by independent third parties.

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Huh? Double. Huh?
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

We have discussed your intelligent chip white paper on the snake oil thread and you concluded that it based on theory, at best.

The entire premise of the chip is to permanently improve the transparency of the polycarbonate surface.

Where's the tested and verifiable math?

Also, any white papers on WA chips. The best I have been able to find is marketing oriented writeups and user reviews ... Some of the user reviews end with the fate of many tweaks in that they initially heard a difference but after some time pulled the WA chips out of their system and preferred the sound without them.

Toledo asked -

Quote:

From your white paper you state
"The clear polycarbonate layer in commercial off-the-shelf CDs has a transparency of only around 92%."

How was this transparency figure arrived at? If the original transparency can be calculated, what is the transparency after treatment? Can you provide the test results?

This seems like a rather simple before/after test to confirm that the permanence of the quantum superposition effect is actually permanent. It is rare to find such an easily testable and verifiable scenario in quantum mechanics.

Geoff responded -

Quote:

We do not do testing of transparency here at Chez Machina Dynamica. Are you volunteering? Think of the transparency theory as what it is, a theory. Please don't report me to AES. You might well be correct, that's it's an easy test to perform. I should also point out that testing of products and testing of theories is probably best performed by independent third parties.

Well, as much as I enjoy discussing the intelligent chip, either the original Orange one or the new improved Super Chip I should point out to the uninitiated that the original chip was not even my product, which makes it so absurd and funny in a way when folks make demands like where's the math and where's the testing? My definitive explanation is a white paper, a back of the envelope exercise. In order to appreciate the intelligent chip, which came from China and was actually just a very inexpensive ($16) party favor that was handed out free at audio shows as a kind of calling card for the Company's other more expensive and "serious" products like speakers and such, one should really have had the opportunity to observe the Chip in action since that is what makes the chip so preposterous. That a little plastic thingie can be placed on top of the CD player and a CD placed inside and played for 2 seconds can do ANYTHING AT ALL much less tansform the sound. If you have a better explanation than I do, be my guest, I'd love to hear it. It almost sounds like you have some kind of problem with theory. I bet you're the kind of guy that has serious reservations about evidence. If I can be so bold, I designed the new Super Intelligent Chip to be superior to the original chip so as much as I loathe blowing my own horn It does appear I might be onto something, no? In fact a CD already treated with the original one will be further improved by subjecting it to the Super Chip. It's kind of funny that in all these years since the chip was the hit of the CES in 2005 there have been no requests for the original intelligent chip or the Super Chip for independent testing. Folks seem to enjoy making demands but have little interest in actually getting off the old BarcoLounger and doing something themselves.

As for the transparency of polycarbonate a simple Google search will probably answer your question. In case you are too lazy, the answer is 92%.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Theory

Geoff,

When asked for math on the intelligent chip, you directed everyone to your white paper.
Seems simple enough. I read it a while ago and you admitted it was based on theory .. No math. Now your equivocating.

When asked for the math, you could have said it was based on theory, but elected not to.

I don't have problems with theories, but when products and techniques are presented in absolutes in the manner that you do, facts matter.

How many of your other products are based on theory and not math? Let's get this on the table, shall we.

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Theoretical physics and Applied Physics

What I do is really applied physics. I'm not sure where you came up with the idea I must support my products with mathematics or any other kind of evidence or proof. As I said already, all of that is for someone else to do if the spirit moves them. You seem to be under the impression this forum is some kind of peer review. Let me straighten you out, it's not. Music majors and English majors are not my peers. I wrote white papers on some of my products because it amuses me, period. Actually in my explanation of the Intelligent Chip there is some math, funny you missed it. It's actually an important part of the logic in the paper and has to do with how many photons are fired by the CD laser per second. This number of photons per second (10 to the 17th power per second) establishes the fact that enough photons escape the player and contact the Intelligent Chip on the top of the player to initiate a photon chain reaction, even if a great many photons that escape are absorbed by room boundaries before they can reach the chip. Would you have been more impressed with a bunch of wave state functions? In addition, I show the math for the de Broglie wavelength involved in the Intelligent Chip that is required for it to function quantum mechanically.

"Gonna raise me an army, some tough sons of bitches
I'll recruit my army from the orphanages"

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff,

Geoff,

The entire premise of your white paper hinged on the permanence of the quantum superposition effect. Any math presented led to a rocky foundation .. No matter how many photons hit the chip, without a permanent effect, this means nothing.

You have stated on other threads that part of your methodology is testing.. I have outlined a quick way to test the chip by yourself to verify your theory in terms of the transparency of the polycarbonate, yet, it appears none has been done.
What's with that?

No physicist, applied or otherwise, I know would skip the chance to prove his ideas correct .. As a matter of course this is a must.

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That's one unhappy camper

Geez, Louise, you don't like the math, you don't like the theory. Did you like the pictures?

Have you ever heard the expression, the proof of the pudding is in the eating? But, hey, don't feel too bad, Altewischer et al, Leiden University in the Netherlands, a world renowned quantum physicist who demonstrated that quantum entanglement between pairs of photons can survive even when one (or both) of the entangled photons is converted into a "surface plasmon" was asked by a naysayer many years ago if he thought the Intelligent Chip could work. He said no. I guess that makes me smarter than Altewischer.

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Cheer Up,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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I thought the tuners were about the doing

And eschewed the measuring and stuff. Make up your minds.

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Impressive

Boy Geoff, your explanations of everything always sound so impressive including your defensive postures and ridicule.

We in the consulting business call this "baffle 'em with bull$hit."

Let me ask you something ... Are you a physicist or a designer or an advanced hobbyist?

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Bingo!
Catch22 wrote:

And eschewed the measuring and stuff. Make up your minds.

Hey, that's what I thought. It's all about the listening, lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Boy, yourself
toledo wrote:

Boy Geoff, your explanations of everything always sound so impressive including your defensive postures and ridicule.

We in the consulting business call this "baffle 'em with bull$hit."

Let me ask you something ... Are you a physicist or a designer or an advanced hobbyist?

Let me ask you a question. Do have anyone waiting in the wings capable of carrying on an actual conversation, not trying to score points with the Tunees Foundation?

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

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doing

Hi Catch

Look at my posts and OP. My math is about doing and I stated that others would come up with their versions if they wished. Your welcome to as well.

any good music playing this weekend?

I'm thinking about poping on "the wall", been doing the jazz thing all week but feeling floyd in my future.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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audio math

Hey Geoff

Thanks for showing us how far your math goes. Now would you apply it on a piece of music for us?

By reading and researching your wiki, this builds the case for tuning being a valid method of moving from one place to another within the context of the signal. If the signal does encompass "A" and another system plays "B", then this means that either A or B is correct or both come from the same source signal. The other conclusion is that both are wrong because neither have acomplished the whole. The whole would be the actual space of that moment in time, thus if a system is not playing back the actual size of the space recorded it is missing signal somewhere along the audio chain.

You said tuning is unnatural yet math says, tuning is the only way to acheive natural. So if all systems sound different and all recordings sound different where is your math for compensating for the variable?

You can't have your theory work unless by your products and math and method make all systems sound the same. Once a variable is entered then this becomes a tunable science.

Thanks, your again doing a fine job for us who tune.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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cut & paste

Hi Toledo

Did some good listening today BTW. Since Geoff decided to follow us over to another thread instead of him starting his own. I took a little time, not much (didn't take much), to look at his website again and posts on here. What I found was Geoff is a cut & paste theory guy, which I'm sure is why he ends up attacking or trying to divert, as part of his "formula" of dealing with people who have a different view than he. Truth be said, I don't and haven't seen any view by Geoff, just scramblings. Like this last one where he came up to show math, and showed nothing more than two cut & paste formulas off of the web. Formulas that he never used to make any equations on music as asked, just formulas in random.

His other posts follow the same type of thing, no original thought just copy & paste. Even with his own product the cut & paste approach mixed with side tracks is pretty much his MO. If you go back on the internet you will see the same MO. First make a statement to look like tech talk, then follow with a product pitch, then defence and put downs when the product is challenged, then admission that the product is something different than what he originally stated. Followed by twist and more attacks.

You notice that all of his thread participation end in spins. Never an absolute, never a demo and never anything that goes past "ifs and maybe's". The world to Geoff doesn't see past any answers unless it directly benefits him. There can't be anything as vaiable as tuning to him cause he has built his mountain on maybe theory building. On his website he builds this concept of "beyond human thinking" by comic book covers and space suits. Tuning is way to practical for his thinking, and he will never give it a try, but be the first to try to cast doubt, and you can see why. His web is based on doubt, almost "conspiracy theory" type stuff. Try this or you'll never know, followed by threats that no one else has the answer.

Why does tuning bother Geoff? Because tuning is the accepting of everything that makes a difference. Tuning spells out that you will either be in-tune or un-tuned or somewhere inbetween, and this somehow takes the mystery away from people like Geoff you will always only show so much and the rest he will fight to the death to not let it shine. Where people like him fail is when they are called on to give proof by showing and doing. Their method isn't a method at all but words ontop of more words, hoping that you will either give in or give up. People like Geoff figure they got you either way and can lower their standards even to the point of making threads that should be inteligente, into nothing but spins or comedy. They said "attacking is not their style" but the first thing they pull out when feeling cornered. "if I can no longer defend I'll attack and belittle the other side, even if it makes me look foolish as well".

The interesting part is, the tunees have said all along, go ahead and do your thing cause at the end of the day the differences in the hobby means tuning. It has been and always will be a variable hobby. Those designers (if they are designers and not traveling salesmen) are to quote Geoff himself "band-aid" makers. The people with their wagons pulling into town with their bottles of "fix it" on sale. "it will make a difference and that's an improvement" is their slogan.

This industry is up to it's eyeballs in "better" and "improvement". People have been selling "improvements" without doing honest referencing and comparisons for far to long. Music "is" about getting from A to B on a slide scale and always will be. Your choice people, listen to someone else's sound or listen to yours? Listen to part of your music collection, or put on what ever you want (and enjoy it)?

Audio math should be about doing and not looking at some wiki cut & paste with no reference of music.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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That about Sums it up.

Michael,

I was about to post a response to Geoff, but you have laid out a much better argument.

I'll include it below anyways.

Quote:

Geoff said -
Let me ask you a question. Do have anyone waiting in the wings capable of carrying on an actual conversation, not trying to score points with the Tunees Foundation?

Oh you mean like have an actual conversation when asked about your products and methodology and stuff like that .... I can't even remember all the questions you've been asked and ignored or spun your way out of.

Silly me, I thought this forum was just a Geoff spinfest.

I noticed you did not answer my questions ... For the last one I should have included crafty marketer.
You take an existing chip, repackage it,wrap a nice scientific theory around it as creative marketing and presto a product is born.

Your clocks and watches ... Same deal .. Take an existing clock/watch, add some of Mays foil, add some creative Morphic Resonance marketing and voila, a product. The Morphic Resonance angle cannot be disproven ... well played.

Your cd pens the same. Use the old green pen research, add some colors and a new product ...

Need I go on ... It will take some time to research the source of your "inspiration" for some of your other products.

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You have questions?

Toledo wrote,

"Silly me, I thought this forum was just a Geoff spinfest.

I noticed you did not answer my questions ... For the last one I should have included crafty marketer.
You take an existing chip, repackage it,wrap a nice scientific theory around it as creative marketing and presto a product is born."

It's not an existing chip. It's a completely different chip. Hel-loo! The active ingredient in the Super Chip is produced by an American nanotechnology company according to my spec.

"Your clocks and watches ... Same deal .. Take an existing clock/watch, add some of Mays foil, add some creative Morphic Resonance marketing and voila, a product. The Morphic Resonance angle cannot be disproven ... well played."

The clocks and watches are modified and treated a great many ways that you cannot see. See? This is just like the scene in Chinatown when the John Houston character tells Nicholson you think you know what's going on but you don't.

"Your cd pens the same. Use the old green pen research, add some colors and a new product ..."

It's the added colors that makes this product unique. And where the colors are used...you're grasping at straws.

"Need I go on ... It will take some time to research the source of your "inspiration" for some of your other products."

Please go on, this is fun. You're cute when you're angry.

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Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Tuner's Lament

Wow, that's some diatribe. It's nice to know I can inspire such anger and resentment. If I can make a suggestion, you might give some serious thought to cutting back a little on your coffee intake.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Nice Information

Wow, never knew the problem started at the fuse box. Thx, great article!

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Ooops, an unanswered question

Toledo asked,

"Where's the tested and verifiable math?

Also, any white papers on WA chips. The best I have been able to find is marketing oriented writeups and user reviews ... Some of the user reviews end with the fate of many tweaks in that they initially heard a difference but after some time pulled the WA chips out of their system and preferred the sound without them."

Since I already provided you some math for the Super Chip ( that you apparently overlooked anyway) here's a response to your comment on the WA chips and many tweaks fate of some people pulling them out of the system. Well, of course some audiophiles will do this, as you said it's not particular to WA Chips. There are many reasons why audiophiles might become disenchanted with tweaks, and with the WA chips in particular. These reasons include but are not limited to:

1. The audio system has one or more serious problems so that the effects of the tweak under test as it were are masked.

2. The audiophile did one or more things to his system in the intervening time that degraded his sound. Or something in his environment changed, something he was UNAWARE of, that degraded his sound. And he blamed it on the tweak under test, e.g. the WA Chip or whatever.

3. The audiophile's hearing isn't all he pretends it to be and he can't tell whether the tweak is working or not.

4. The audiophile did not follow directions.

5. In the particular case of the WA Chip they can have stronger effects in one location than another. I found the WA cable chip to be much better on the circuit breaker than on a cable for example.

Unlike those who pulled their WA chips out of their systems I still have many WA chips in mine with no problems whatsoever.

Hope this helps.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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your welcome

Your welcome Robert, there's a lot more on this at http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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Can we stay on topic?

I know it's a great temptation to turn every thread into a Billboard for TuneLand but can we try to stay on topic here?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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giving another option

I'm sorry it appears that way geoff, but when so many of these threads turn into spins it's helpful to be able to have the readers come to a place that doesn't allow some of the same type of conduct. Sometimes it's a lot easier to say come over here and read about it.

Not all dicussion boards are designed to die in flames, and fortunately today it's as simple as pointing to another place to talk about the same topic. You being someone who likes to share their thoughts should think about having a PhPbb of your own. We live in a world of networking Geoff and the more we link to others the more open our minds become.

It's pretty obvious that Stereophile has needed a good dose of tuning, as well as the industry as a whole. Those who want to promote staying "fixed" are of course going to complain, what else is new. However tuning is one of those not tiny, but big issues and when ever the industry starts to head that direction all kinds of talks begin. Point and case, the whole acoustical section here is called what? Room Tuning. It's not called LEDE, or lets get diffused, or even trap your sound. It's called RoomTuning because people have started to tune in the sound of their rooms. We are on the tweaks section, but it would probably be better if it were called "system tuning", more to the point of what is going on.

I make no excuse, I have an agenda and that is to help this hobby get to the next phase. I truly believe that the next step for this hobby is to spell out the plans for getting the right sound for each listener, whether it be something they set once and never touch it again or do continual tuning for each recording. It's not up to us to tell them how to listen but more provide a way of listening, and that's what I'm going to do, and sure you and May and whoever will do the same with your ideas.

Every time I do a system I get asked "why doesn't every one do this". Well... it's true why doesn't everyone have a plan that goes beyond a stock source, amp and speaker setup? Geoff you may see me as someone who has a gripe about what you do, I don't. You and May and the others can do what ever you want. My gripe is about anyone who says I have a one fix cure all. That has really screwed the pooch for hundreds of thousands of audiophiles, many of which don't even want to be audiophiles any more. The listener has said pretty loud and clear, we're done with the BS. A lot of them have got up and walked away Geoff, because too many people have said "I have the one and only answer", they bought into that answer with their heart and soul and money and got stepped on. they bought again and got stepped on again. These listeners kept coming back to the well and have been completely mistreated.

I can't do it that way Geoff. I'm not going to spend my life fixated on the sale. Even if some listeners get mad at me they deserve to hear the truth. We can't take this hobby to the next level on myths. One of those myths is having systems that play small soundstages. Another one is treating recordings like they are all the same. This fixation on the one sound is so screwed in the head. Audiophile sits there and says "my system is revealing the music" next month he tweaks "now my system is realing the music" two years later he tweaks more "oh, now my system reveals the music", it's endless and doesn't need to be. Same audiophile comes in and listens to a tunable system "I don't like that"..."here's the wrench have fun".

Let me use Bill again cause it's fresh. Bill just made a sonic change right? Bill has made sonic changes in the past right? What if Bill had a system that could make those changes and any others he wanted to make, all one system, and no more tearing everything apart? We're doing the same thing Bill is only as we do it we make it variable so we can make an adjustment. First Bill set the board on the cork, then he put the tention on. What if Bill had a system that had this same type of adjusting all over his system?

Sooner or later this is home for the audiophile. All we are doing is taking all these tweaks and putting them into a systematic proceedure. Geoff, everything you do with dampening I can do at the turn of a screw, or moving something. We're not saying one way is bad, we're saying it's limited. If people want to come in and kill it, fine, no really it's fine with us, but don't tell the next guy who wants it open to kill it.

Let me give another example. See all that dampening on top of your component? Take that same component and instead of using all that dampening, make a smaller version of it, and make a clamping device so that you can apply pressure to the material instead of only using mass/weight/gravity and listen to what happens.

Trust me Geoff, we are not your enemy. We're just guys who have had the facilities to do maybe a wider range of testing, that's all. That's why I wanted to see your facilities and systems and Mays as well. what your going to find with Toledo myself or any of those who tune is, we are happy when you or anyone moves to a better place, but we're also pretty serious about our judgements between better and different.

I wish we could talk together instead of against but maybe that's just the way it's going to be, but I hope not always, and our door is open.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Gee, you don't say?

Michael, I don't see you as someone who has a gripe about me. I see you as a sort of isolated branch of audiophile nation, although one that's at least two paradigms behind advanced audiophiles. I know what you're thinking, but I AM an advanced audiophile!

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no what I was thinking was

John Mclaughlin, is sounding pretty darn good in the room. Had two audiophiles here today that went nuts loving it, but I'll be sure to tell them what you think of them at diner tonight.

Say hows your stereo room doing BTW? I hear you haven't had a stereo in there for going on 8 years now and "you've never looked back". Yep, Geoff your way ahead of the pack! Way ahead of the curve there boy, keep up the good work.

Can't wait to sign up for your seminar. How space layered cake saved my audio system System SYSTEM Lol.

Hey, but you've showed us your good for a joke!

Just share with Geoff that your listening to music and he'll be sure to make fun of you.

Yep, your a real treasure! So much so that I showed another worker one of your posts today. He said "what an asshole"! yep, your a real treasure!

michael green
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Nurse! Man down!

Probably too much coffee, be my guess. Over-tuned. It takes one to know one, my granddaddy used to say.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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