Hi Ron

You'll probably get a lot of responses to this one, and I responded on the other thread. I looked at http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t13-tuning-step-by-step and realized how much updating I need to do, and will, but this is a start.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ask Michael what you can do for your system to improve the sound that may be "free", if not for very little cost.

As fate would have it I actually sell one of the most cost effective vibration isolation systems extant. It is the evolution of my Promethean mechanical spring based system of yore. The heat tempered high carbon Baby Promethean springs are the same concept as the larger Promethean Base iso system - Ye olde mass-on-spring iso system. Cost? I'm almost giving these things away. Four Baby Promethan springs can support/isolate up to 45 lb. Resonant frequency circa 3 Hz. The latest version of the springs are cryo'd. Hence the name Cryo Baby Promethean Mini Isolators. The beauty of the small independent springs is that the system is scalable, for a 150 lb Raven or Verdier turntable including the supporting plate for the TT would be what about 12 springs? Will outperform iso platforms costing 10 times as much. The other big advantage of small springs is they have very good lateral stability, considerably better than larger springs.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

LOL, Hi Ron

The ole dollar signs in this hobby can add up. I don't worry about budget, and as Chris said, I work with listeners at whatever budget they have or free. It all evens out in the end.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I had these blocks of plywood (birch?) left over from a non-stereo application and after some experimentation, I found just putting these blocks under the casings (not feet) of my McIntosh MR74 tuner, Rotel RCD-965BX cd player, and Bellani phono pre-amp there was a notable increase in the size and depth of the soundstage and a more natural, more open and improved dynamic presentation of voices and instruments.

Michael had advised me earlier to swap out the power conditioner I had been using with most of my components for some plain jane, light weight plastic power bars.

A cheap, inexpensive start.

The irony of course is that Michael and his loyal sock puppet ChisS are commenting on a thread about vibration isolation. What is the irony, you ask. Michael hates vibration isolation. He hates anything that absorbs, attenuates, isolates, damps or otherwise detracts from the Full Monty vibration. Hel-loooo! Michael's kind of the Will Rogers of Audio. He never met a vibration he didn't like.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

...you are a crowd of one.

What's in your ear, Geoffy?

You don't even use or believe in your own products anymore.

(Sorry, Ron. Please ignore.)

Hi Ron

Springs and wood is a very good start indeed! One, there's a ton of wood out there, and two there are all types of springs to play with. You can look at TuneLand and see the types we use to maybe give you some hints as to how you might use them.

have fun!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Geoff said

"Michael hates vibration isolation".

mg

Yikes, I'm in big trouble than lol. Actually to be correct here, Michael is not crazy about using "isolation" in high end audio as a selling tool when it is not really very accurately used. It's ok with me if people want to use this word because they don't have a better one, but "vibratory control" would fit better in this hobby.

Letting the vibrations run free (as geoff tries to paint lol) is far from what we do. We "tune" the vibrations, which is the practice of puting the recorded code in tune with the audio code. We use a lot of tools to do this with, as the energy is different in every room, thus the tuning comes in.

It's not hard to choke out the audio signal, and if your like us, we are very careful about keeping as much of the signal in use as we can. If someone chooses to suck all the life out of the stage, that's totally up to them, but I think the mature extreme listener chooses to have choice, and more of a selective audio closet so they can explore each recording on it's own merits.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Geoff you just said

"As fate would have it I actually sell one of the most cost effective vibration isolation systems extant. It is the evolution of my Promethean mechanical spring based system of yore. The heat tempered high carbon Baby Promethean springs are the same concept as the larger Promethean Base iso system - Ye olde mass-on-spring iso system. Cost? I'm almost giving these things away. Four Baby Promethan springs can support/isolate up to 45 lb. Resonant frequency circa 3 Hz. The latest version of the springs are cryo'd. Hence the name Cryo Baby Promethean Mini Isolators. The beauty of the small independent springs is that the system is scalable, for a 150 lb Raven or Verdier turntable including the supporting plate for the TT would be what about 12 springs? Will outperform iso platforms costing 10 times as much. The other big advantage of small springs is they have very good lateral stability, considerably better than larger springs."

mg

My question is probably the same one many others have, reading your threads, asked. If these isolation systems are the cats meow, why did you replace these with a Portable Sony Walkman Cassette Player with earphones? You've said that the Sony Walkman beats up on these systems, and have even gone to the extent of telling us to throw away our systems and get these portables.

I'm by no means down on springs, in fact I'm listening to springs on one of my systems right now, but it's odd that you have been saying get rid of all this stuff on many of these threads and here you are promoting that people use them.

So to be clear, you are saying the portable sony walkman out performs your high mass spring system, but your spring system out performs others 10 times the cost? I think the readers need some clarification here.

Following your threads and posts, you have gone from your in-room stereo system to headphones "never looking back". You designed a headphone setup that you were proclaiming as being amoung the very best. From this you discovered that portable cassette players are far better than your isolated high end CD setup. Even on your web you replaced the pic of your isolation system with the portable cassette players and promoted this on Audiogon, of which you said you were their number one seller.

Now we find you back, pushing the heavy isolation setup with your CDP, which we can see in your pics. It gets a little confusing because you sold off that system (you stated) and moved on to this new world of portable that you promoted for over a year now.

Can you explain again the jumps, from in-room to high end isolation (headphones), to low mass portables, and now back to a system you don't even have any more? Have you changed your mind that the portables beatup on the isolated CDP system?

Here's why I'm commenting on this. Your telling others to not participate on a thread about isolation, and yet you've sold off that isolation system for a portable cassette player. The OP is clearly using an in-room system, which you had moved on from "never looking back" and your giving him advice while telling others (actively practicing with in-room systems) to back off.

If I were someone looking to get into tuning or isolation, I would be looking into the writers backgrounds a little to see what was successful for them and what wasn't. I'd read something like ChrisS's report and looking on Tuneland thinking, there are many ways to go here. I would look at yours, and see that your isolation stand is discontinued and you have moved on from your high mass setups. If I were to consider springs and slabs of marble that's not so tough to find and play with. Almost all of us who have gone down this road have bought our springs, marble, absortion materials and played. No one has a problem with this, us old farts been there done that. This is not the issue. The issue to me is, seeing you jumping around on this forum, puting down others, trying to keep them off threads and suggestings people do stuff that you have found can be out done by a sony portable walkman. Shouldn't you be up here saying to Ron, like you have the rest of us "dump your system and get a portable" instead of confusing folks by jumping around these threads with a different story every time it looks like a chance to promote or sell, regardless that you have not been successful with the technology? Or at least no more successful than a sony walkman portable cassette player?

Geoff, I'm up here promoting all the time. I'm promoting a method of listening, a start to finish way of listening that has all kinds of variables so someone can find their sound, not my sound but their sound. How do you justify you going from one thing to the next with such absolute statements and tie your in-room setup 8 years ago, to your isolated CDP and then to your portable?

I think if you could share with us why the jumps, it would help us to see why you make the moves you did and do. I know it would clear things up in regards to, why is this guy telling people to get off a thread when he himself doesn't even practice the technologies he talks about, let alone attempts to sell. Please understand I don't care if you sell a million products, that's not my intent. My intent is to have you explain yourself to others as you get so fired up at them. What's your agenda that we can count on in other words?

You said "as fate would have it", well I'm not sure people are looking for an inexpensive product that you have out performed with a portable cassette player. Reading these threads, I would imagine almost anyone could make a platform or stand that changed the sound. I would think that the goal is to buy or make something that out did something that got beat out by a sony walkman.

Can you see where the weirdness may fit in for us?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael Wrote,

"My question is probably the same one many others have, reading your threads, asked. If these isolation systems are the cats meow, why did you replace these with a Portable Sony Walkman Cassette Player with earphones? You've said that the Sony Walkman beats up on these systems, and have even gone to the extent of telling us to throw away our systems and get these portables."

Geez, this is like the tenth time you've asked the same question. For the umpteenth time I went from a high end modded Oppo and SET pure tube headphone system because I learned the the following things.

The transformer is very bad for the sound. Even with countermeasures, it still sucks. Best to get rid of the stupid thing altogether.

The house AC power is very dicey at beast as are power cords. You just asking for trouble that can never be overcome. It's just a huge compromise. Best to get rid of it altogether. That's what I did.

The large Not to mention expensive speaker cables Nd interconnects and digital cables are bad for the sound when compared to NONE. Well, OK, I still have the tiny little cables from the portables to the earphones. Since the main problem with cables I mean other than the fact their very frequently install BACKWARDS is the MAGNETIC FIELD they produce. BEST to just get rid of the things.

All the capacitors, resistors and internal wiring in electronics, guess what, it's all bad for he sound. Yes of course I realize that's the way they're made,,were supposed to,just ignore the fact that these things have ISSUES. Bets to just get rid of them. Portables have precious little inside. precious little to vibrate, which is one reason why vibration isolation is virtually unnecessary. Besides, as I have also pointed out until I'm blue in the face (Michael, you need to add more fish to your diet!) the portables have anti roll and anti vibration functions built right in. That's why you can carry them with you whilst running and they won't skip. HEL-LOOOO!

Michael Wrote,

"My question is probably the same one many others have, reading your threads, asked. If these isolation systems are the cats meow, why did you replace these with a Portable Sony Walkman Cassette Player with earphones? You've said that the Sony Walkman beats up on these systems, and have even gone to the extent of telling us to throw away our systems and get these portables."

Geez, this is like the tenth time you've asked the same question. For the umpteenth time I went from a high end modded Oppo and SET pure tube headphone system because I learned the following things.

The transformer is very bad for the sound. Even with countermeasures, it still sucks. Too much vibration and too large a magnetic field. Best to get rid of the stupid thing altogether. That's exactly what I did. Much better sound.

The house AC power is very dicey at best. It's just a huge compromise. Best to get rid of the AC power and all the power cords altogether. That's what I did. Batteries are more stable and don't bring EMI/RFI into the device. Much better sound.

No fuses to screw up the sound in portables. Not to mention the expense. Have you SEEN the cost of high end fuses these days?!

The large and expensive speaker cables, interconnects, and digital cables are bad for the sound when compared to NONE AT ALL so, I got rod of them all!! Well, OK, I still have the tiny little cables from the portables to the earphones. Since the main problem with cables (I mean other than the fact they're very frequently installed BACKWARDS) is the MAGNETIC FIELD they produce, you know, the one produced by the current. Best to just get rid of the things. Which is what I've done.

All the capacitors, resistors and internal wiring in electronics, guess what, it's all bad for he sound. Yes of course I realize that's the way they're made,,were supposed to,just ignore the fact that these things have ISSUES. Bets to just get rid of them. Portables have precious little inside. Precious little to vibrate, which is one reason why vibration isolation is virtually unnecessary for portables. Besides, as I have also pointed out until I'm blue in the face (Michael, you need to add more fish to your diet!) the portables have anti roll and anti vibration functions built right in. That's why you can carry them with you whilst running and they won't skip. HEL-LOOOO!

So, to summarize, it's not the fact that the portables are low mass, even though they do have low mass, my portable FM/AM radio coming in at a whopping 6 ounces including earphones it's the fact they don't have transformers, cables, fuses, big capacitors, power cords and the rest it. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

So, finally, I don't need vibration isolation but you and everyone else DOES. Follow? No, of course you don't. That's why you keep,asking the same question. Not only that you keep asking the same question as if I must be CRAZY to not have a real system, a real system LIKE YOU HAVE! Hahaha. I care not what systems others have, as for me give me portables.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

So Geoff, why are you saying...

"The transformer is very bad for the sound. Even with countermeasures, it still sucks. Best to get rid of the stupid thing altogether."

...and promoting and showing a picture of this big heavy stand, instead of puting up a picture of your portable sony walkman cassette player as the answer to the OP?

Isn't this a bit of an awkward statement?

geoff says

"So, finally, I don't need vibration isolation but you and everyone else DOES. Follow?"

First your saying that your non-adjustable tape head portable cassette player is better than your best attempt at isolation. Second your asking us if we "follow" as if we are going to (as you did) dump our systems for a portable cassette player that Sony themselves said was not meant for extreme hi fidelity?

I would think that the people who are comparing and have compared their systems against your reference (a portable sony cassette player) would have to question your credibility on the subject of islolating or tuning a stereo system.

When I have compared the two, it was a pretty clear if not ridiculous blowout, but if your saying once again that your best isolated system was beatup by a Sport Sony Walkman cassette player I guess we have to take you at your word, and yes I would say this needs repeated everytime you give advice on a topic that includes audio performance, especially when you put yourself at such a high level of expertize. I mean why do any of us in the hobby have systems when we could go on ebay and buy a walkman? Of course we would send that walkman to you for tweaking.

I would like to place an order. Oh, but you said you wouldn't sell to any Tunees or anyone associated with me. Isn't that interesting. Geoff has the answer, dump your stereo and buy his cassette player, or if you don't you might as well kiss good sound goodbye. Interesting indeed. :)

I guess I will never know unless I can talk one of you guys who have geoff's player into letting me hear it.

Oh and I was promoting AXPONA, but I guess nevermind. Need to get a call into Harold so he can avoid the disaster. Sure wish I would have followed Geoff instead of all those years of fooling myself.

MG makes call "hello David, yeah hey I wanted to talk to you. We need to rethink this whole music thing. Yeah, this guy Geoff Kait is the one we should have followed."

Yep Mr. Kait, we'll all get right on that!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Geoffy had indicated to us quite a while ago that he hasn't had a stereo system for about 8 years now...

Actually Ron, one of the reasons geoff is put into question often, is that he gave up his in-room system over 8 years ago. Last year he gave up his Headphone system as well, and now references with literally a portable sony walkman cassette player. I'm not kidding, that's it, his lab is a portable cassette player. And when he made the jump from his old references to new, making his bold statements, he had a sony walkman and 10 cassette tapes. This is all on the threads here, I'm not making it up, just interested like anyone else till he started telling us to dump what we had, and convert to the wonderful world of portable cassette players.

If you look at his threads you will see where he pretty much tells all of us to take a hike and go with portable cassette players. Hard to believe I know, but this is why his own personal credibility is put on the chopping block with many of us. Nothing wrong with a portable cassette player at all, but if someone like you, I or others are talking in-room or a high end headphone setups it's important to see geoff's position.

Are you a little surprised? I too would have thought that someone with so many bold opinions would have several levels of systems but this is not the case with geoff. If he did have several types of systems and was able to do referencing with the rest of us, you would not see him being put on the hot seat as much, but when someone comes to a car race with a bicycle, frankly it's not even so much a matter of free speech as it is a matter of distraction from the hobby.

as you continue to read you will see :)

As for myself, being a designer and long time music engineer I want to engage with peers or at least with others that have remotely the same page of understanding and even more, experiences. Doesn't have to be all that close in opinions, but at least have an in-room system if your going to talk in-room systems.

But here we are talking on a stereo forum called stereophile, and the three designers who come up mainly. One has a collection of cassette tapes and a few portable players, one won't show their system at all, and the 3rd has several locations with many systems ranging from portables to million dollar rooms.

See where it might be a little out of balance, and why I encourage them to step up their game just a little? I want to promote this hobby to the on-lookers at a little higher level than a sony portable cassette player and a no show that's all.

Maybe as May says I'm being arrogant, or maybe I have higher expectations from a forum called "Stereophile". Either way I find it hard to be challenged by people who can't rise above a keyboard to do so.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Looks like it's time for the ask a lot of irrelevant questions, throw in a few insults and accusations and make some half hearted demands happy hour brought to you by the Tuning Foundation Grand Poobah and his somewhat doped up sidekick Scooter. Must be a bad day at Poker Flats.

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

So that makes you Wile E. Coyote...?

Geoff, trust me, if this was about me wanting to stick a portable cassette tape player in a freezer I would ask for your input. Well maybe not cause we did that at my bud's house.

However, most of the guys I talk to about sound actually have sound to talk about. Why would I talk to you about anything that has to do with a soundstage? You say "the soundstage is not the most important part of the recording". When it comes to setting up speakers, your advice is and I quote "set the speakers 4 feet apart". A guy sitting in his place with sony ear plugs in, and without an in-room stereo system is saying "place your speakers 4 feet apart", and attempting to do so as an authority figure. As you say the things you do, you also try to make it look like you are the majority and everyone else is the minority.

Now we just finished AXPONA and even in these small hotel rooms, how many systems do you see where the speakers are 4 feet apart? While your at it, why don't you take a look back through the last 20 years of shows and give me a % of 4 foot setups vs wider? Who is in the minority sir? Maybe it's time you take a look around. Geoff, you can't just talk audio. Audio setups and this hobby is something we "DO" , and as nice as people try to be with you, if you don't have what they do there is simply no way you can identify with the hobby of in-room stereo listening. Are you telling us that the rooms you did at shows that gained good reports had their speakers 4 feet apart? I see only one setup on your website. Those speakers are setup far more than 4 feet apart.

See what we're saying geoff. It's not about talk without the show, you've got to have both and listeners deserve both.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I realize you have a propensity for being argumentative and well sort of blustery. Maybe I'll start calling you Mr. Bluster. I never said place the speakers 4 feet apart, my memory challenged friend. I was quoting the guys who made the XLO Test CD - you know, Keith Johnson and Roger Skoff - who recommend STARTING at a distance of 4 feet and working outwards, that the chances are most people - probably people like YOU - have the speakers too widely separated. Of course the actual IDEAL distance is room dependent and speaker dependent but the fact is that a relatively shorter distance between speakers is BETTER than relatively longer distances between them. Now do you get it? All the other rubbiish in your post appears to be nothing more than a weak attempt to save face in the uh face of constantly sticking your foot in your mouth, not to mention trying to divert attention away from the topic and back on to Doodyville, I mean TuneLand.

Cheerios,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We Do Artificial Atoms Right

geoff said

"The other problem with speaker set up is that many folks believe that speakers need to be wide apart for best sound. That's actually an old wives tale. Always start determining proper speaker placement with speakers relatively close together, say 4 feet. In many cases the speakers are much to far apart to obtain proper staging and center fill and toeing them in only compounds the problem."

mg

This is what you said (to put it in context), which may be one opinion but is far from the only way, and points to not having successful tuning or understanding the tuning of "the center stage". If one knows how to tune the center stage pressure zone they find that the speakers indeed can and should be spread further apart. Not always the case but 95% of the time based on what we have and most people discover in this hobby.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t301-roomtune-deluxe

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t293-roomtune-placement-guide

There's a lot more of this on TuneLand, but this starts to get you into the front pressure zone and how to use it with speaker placememnt. If you look at any of our threads with Floorstanders used, it will paint the piture for you.

The room/speaker component is the biggest component in audio and is why it is called Room Tuning. It may have recieved a slow start behind the other components but when you get to this stage you will either get stuck or will move on as an advanced listener.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael, I love it when you quote me as if you caught me in a lie or something. Yes, of course that's what I said, you big knucklehead. That's what I just explained a second ago. Can't you read? The method of speaker placement is suggested by Roger Skoff and Keith Johnson on the speaker set up portion of the XLO Test CD. You know if you were not so obsessed with getting the word out on TuneLamd and actually read more carefully you wouldn't get your codger caught in the stump grinder quite so much. Yes, I know what you're thinking, you're thinking that by spreading the speakers out as wide as possible you get a wider soundstage, right? Hahahahaah. I bet you're a big fan of toeing speakers in, too. The location of speakers is not really a variable as there is only ONE LOCATION IN A ROOM THAT IS THE PERFECT LOCATION. Doing things your way actually guarantees you'll never find that perfect location, only a local maximum. It's like trying to solve two simultaneous equations in three unknowns. I can just see you sitting there listening to see if the speakers are in the right location, getting up, moving them, listening again, frowning, getting up, moving them again, listening, frowning, getting up, moving them again, etc. Kind of like a frustrated monkey on crack. Hahahaah

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

I have had good luck with some used silicone breast implants; they are somewhat hard to get if you don't work at a hospital.

Speaking of which, I have it on good authority that those cute little hemorrhoid cushions work quite well, too.

Yes, I'm joking.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica
Machina Dynamica

My equipment is on a wire rack or the kind found in many kitchen pantries (including mine) of heavy weight chromed steel legs and lightweight wire shelves. With feet of expanded polyethylene (packaging foam) and 1/2" lightweight birch plywood. I have ideas of why this is so effective, but have yet to experiment enough to prove them.

Score 1 for a combination of lightweight and constrained layer damping.

I'm interested in what may come of putting dynamat squares in between the foam and plywood.