Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am
Advice for new system - old NAD/Music Hall/Tube
bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

I would look at the Rega Brio R. It is one of the class leaders in the 400-600 pound sterling range on WhatHiFi. They listed it at 480. It has a killer phono stage, particularly with a Rega table.

I would look at the new Wharfedale Diamond 200 line. The 220s are the class winner for top Bookshelf speaker 200 pounds and under.

If you can afford it, I would also get a Marantz NA6005. It is an awesome external DAC with built in Spotify. It would be about 350 pounds I think. If you don't mind streaming off of a PC, you could look at a Cambridge DAC Magic which I think is going to be 150 to 200 pounds.

Alternatively, theDiamond 230s also get a five star rating and go down to about 40hz so you may be able to live without a subwoofer. You should be able to get them for around 400 pounds.

In the long term, I would look seriously at the RP1 with the upgrade kit or an RP3 with an Elys2. You would want to get a Rega cartridge with a Brio R. The synergies will outperform a dramatically more expensive system.

I like Music Hall, NAD and Marantz as well. I think all three manufacturers with units in the 500 pound price range or less fall a hair short of the Brio R. Creek and Arcam make darn nice units that will likely be a hair more expensive than the Brio and have more features. I am not sure if those features are useful to you but are worth considering

Full disclosure - I own the Brio R and 2 Rega tables and love them.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

The Rogue Audio Sphinx would be the unit I would look for if I was looking at a tube/hybrid. It is gonna be 600 to 700 pounds though it may be tough to find since Rogue Audio is a USA company.

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Thanks! I'm going to do a bit more research on what you suggested. For speakers I definitely don't want to end up with a separate sub. I just want a nice balanced speaker with a good depth of bass, but not really booming.

I also came across this amp: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.no/produkter.asp#21

Which seems to have great feedback nut not lots of it because it's a mall company.

What do you think? I don't like the look of it at all but excellent reviews: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/abrahamsen-audio-amp-v20.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

according to WhatHiFi, the Diamond 220s are 180 pounds, but he 230s are 500 pounds. They said the 220s are flawless, the 230s have lost a star due stiff recent entries. They lost a star to the Q Acoustics 3050. That might be the budget floorstanders at 500 pounds.

Whether you need a subwoofer is debatable. The diamond 220s deliver a frequency response to 56hz +/- 3 dB. 46hz+/- 6 dB. The 230s deliver 40hz and 37hz respectively. The 3050s go to 44hz without a decibel range specified. A bass guitar plays down to 40hz. You need to judge what the right level of bass is to you. The 220s spec suggests it is going to sound pretty good.

Ironically, WhatHiFi suggested a Rega Brio R and an RP3 with Elys2 to me for the Q Acoustics 3050s.

I know nothing about Abrahemson Audio. I checked out the site and saw an independent review of one of their DACs. People seem to like them and the review of the DAC was very favorable. Do they have return policy? The two big web manufacturers here in the USA have 30 day in home demos.

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Not sure for Abrahemson. They seem to be a small company started by a guy who ran another company who seem to have been very well respected and were bought out. There is a bit too much gold on it for my liking, and a bit above budget but for some reason it tempts me!

Speakers... I think the 220s are definitely the ones for me, as long as the amp I get matches ok. I have no idea about matching amps and speakers.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

I find Wharfedale speakers to be a tiny bit warm. If you get a warm power amp like an NAD or a tube amp, it would make it doubly warm. Neutral to slightly forward would compliment the wharfedales perfectly. Rega, Creek and Arcam would compliment them well as they are extremely neutral.

You could get a Rega, Creek or Arcam unit and a DAC and be on or close to budget while also being certain you are getting an amazing amp. The only way I would go over budget is to get added functionality like you from a network player like the NA6005. I have a now discontinued NA7004 from Marantz and stream a lot of Pandora. It is paired with with my Brio R and is awesome.

The three best options to me are the Rega Brio R, the Creek Evolution EVO 50 or the Arcam FMJ A19. The Rega is £480, the Arcam should be about £550 and the Creek should be around £690.

This would be comfortably one rung above entry level. With anyone of those amps, you could spend £1000 on speakers and not feel compelled to but a new integrated amp.

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

All:

Do not forget that the room acoustics and speaker placement will definitely allow speakers of the Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 and it's variants to reach near and most likely below 40 Hz. I see here the new Diamond 220's specs: (which replace the Diamond 10.2)

Frequency response (+/-3dB) 56Hz - 20kHz
Bass extension (-6dB 45Hz)

These specs are nearly identical to the now cheaper 10.2's. Don't forget to buy stands! And, it should be stated I evaluated for a month the smaller version, Diamond 10.1's, and found them a delight. Only complaint: needed a subwoofer to get full audio spectrum. But the 10.2's and now 220's should NOT in a well tuned room.

Kind Regards,

Ron

ps. if it isn't obvious by my response, I am also recommending Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 book shelf speakers on clearance to the OP. Any of the integrated/amps recommended by other posters all sound good to me. I chose myself the Creek Evolution 50A with matching Epos Epic 2 speakers, and for Vinyl, I can tell you I LOVE this setup.

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Thanks a lot. I do have a bit of a tricky room for speaker placement due to the position and size of the windows so I'm going to have to play about with where I put them I think.

Regarding the DAC - my plan was to plug a line out from an iPad dock straight into the amp and use that to play Spotify. Is there a reason that the DAC would be required?

I think there's a shop near me that I can try the Rega, but not the Creek which is a shame, but I have read a lot of good things about the Rega.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

The quality of the DAC in the phone is not strong. The actual chip itself is fine, as Apple uses Cirrus Logic chips but the implementation of it is weak. The sound will be muddy. An external DAC, whether it be a network player or a DAC with an Apple TV will be far, far superior.

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Strak:

Looking at your budget and needs, I can recommend the Musical Fidelity V90 DAC. It can be had for under $300 US. It also received excellent reviews here on Stereophile. I personally owned one for a month...and indeed it is very accurate; however, I myself ended up upgrading to the PS Audio NuWave; which retails for near $1,000 US. On this same topic, do not necessarily dismiss equipment that you cannot audition in person. Even though I live in the large metropolitan city of Pittsburgh, I cannot really find hardly any decent equipment to ever audition, so I end up doing more research and order online; always being mindful of most retailer's 30-day no-hassle return policy. That is in fact how I auditioned both DACs, as well as my Creek Evolution 50A Integrated amp I am happy with.

If my budget were constrained, I can say I would have been happy with the V90. In this hobby, regrettably, one usually gets what they pay for. And to echo what bierfeldt said; though the Apple device will play through the Integrate Amp you end up getting, if the Integrated Amp does NOT have a built-in DAC (some do), you will find upgrading to a separate DAC the sound will indeed be a significant improvement over the Apple device.

Respectfully,

Ron

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Ok, clear now for the DAC!

So I'm going to spend a bit more time looking at amps. There's a Creek a50i that I'm watching on eBay. Currently pretty cheap but quite a few days left. If it remains cheap I'm going to go for it as it will at least be decent and means I can come in under budget. If not then I think it's going to be the Rega Brio R (I'm sure that'll make bierfeldt happy!).

Regarding turntables. I won't be listening to loads of Vinyl, but I do want something decent. I've found some good deals on 2 second hand ones which seem to have reasonable reviews:

Pioneer Quartz PII PL-300 - direct drive, auto return
NAD C555 - Rega RB 250 arm, no auto lift or return (I don't think)

Do any of you have any thoughts/experience on these or should I start a new thread in the Vinyl section? (I assume there is one).

Thanks,
Strak

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

In general, the best tables are belt driven and largely lack auto lift and return. Those motorized functions add unnecessary variables to the table. I am not saying you can't create a table with that functionality that sounds great, it just doesn't seem to happen very often.

The NAD is a nice table. It falls between an RP1 and an RP3. Based on what you are describing as your likely usage, it seems like a very good choice. I have a friend who has one and I have listened to it quite frequently.

One note, when buying second hand turntables, if you are buying from eBay, be cautious. I bought a ProJect Xpression via eBay and the guy I bought it from did not pack it properly and it was severely damaged. My point is, if you are buying second hand and it needs to be shipped, make sure the person who is doing the shipping knows how to pack it.

A Creek integrated, an NAD turntable with Wharfedale speakers and a nice DAC would put you comfortably above entry level and you could feel real good about your system.

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Strak:

I would definitely go for the NAD with the Rega tonearm. Auto-lift and return is largely not available in higher end gear anyway... I know it's odd... one would think there would be MORE features and not less.. but the mere lack of it leads me further to believe that NAD unit is true hi-fi without further research and going by NAD and Rega reputation alone.

Also, good luck on the Creek! If you end up not liking it (which I doubt), and if you get it for a good price, I am certain you could instantly re-sell it and regain your money. If you were in the States (shipping is an issue over-seas cost-wise) I would seriously buy it from you if you found you didn't like it.

Good Luck, and please keep us up to date with your progress. I think you are on the right track and applaud your resourcefulness to get higher end gear for bargain prices.

Kind Regards,

Ron

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Thanks, yes I feel like I'm getting a bit of a better hold on what's reasonable instead of just reading reviews of more and more expensive amps.

Regarding the Creek a50i - I assume this is the model before the Evolution 50a? I've found 2 available, one for 322 (£230) euros inc postage, the other hopefully a bit less. I think it's the model without remote but I find that sort of charming in a way. At this price is it worth it or would you recommend a few hundred more for a new Rega Brio R?

Thanks a lot for your help so far guys :)

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

I have no opinion on sound quality. I have never heard that model at a time where I was evaluating it critically.

To me, part of the decision would be driven by how old the unit actually is. Was it new in 2012 and the person is just upgrading or was it new in 2005 and has 10 years of wear and tear? Has it been refurbed? If the answer is it is only a couple years old or it has been refurbed, my hunch is a definite yes. If it is 10 years old or hasn't been refurbished then I would be more wary.

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Good point, also I found that at least one of them doesn't have the phono module installed so I'd need to buy that separately. Looking like I'll probably go for the Rega Brio unless I see any bargains!

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

After looking it up, it is very good. Seems to be the predecessor to mine, and better built. (judging by an internal picture of it I saw where it has 12 capacitors.. Creek believes in many, smaller caps as opposed to few huge ones to render better sound) Here is an excerpt from just one of many good articles on it, and did I say TWELVE capacitors? :)

Creek A50i/A50iR integrated amplifiers

Creek A50i

The A50i/A50iR integrated amplifiers are the successors to the highly revered 4330SE. Many would have thought it was hard to improve on the predecessor to the A50i, but improve we have! At first glance the new 50 series looks very different - indeed the sleek styling of these new Creek integrated amps make the A50i range highly desirable.

Creek however is not about looks alone - what goes on inside these amplifiers is where they stand out from the crowd. Whatever your musical preference, these Creek integrated amplifiers will satisfy the most critical of listeners. They are powerful yet subtle. You simply won't want to switch off.

Creek A50i

Although an evolution of the 4330SE, the Creek 50 series integrated amplifiers are innovative in the true sense of the word. Using proprietary circuitry developed by Creek engineers, the A50i guarantees an exceptional level of performance. There is no doubt that these integrated amplifiers will stand the test of time like few other products in their price category.

Creek hasn't forgotten the multitude of vinyl enthusiasts and a range of optional plug-in modules is available to match both moving magnet and moving coil cartridges.

The A50i is a standard non-remote version - the A50iR has remote volume capability. The accompanying elegant handset providing remote volume control measures just 11.5cm x 5.5cm, so that it sits comfortably in the palm of the hand. With its combination of good looks, facilities and sound quality, the Creek A50i integrated amplifiers are hard to beat and will no doubt set the standard for years to come. The latest Creek series proves yet again that the best integrated amplifiers don't have to be the most expensive.

Product name A50i A50iR
Power output (both channels) 50W into 8 Ohms -
Power output (one channel) 60W into 4 Ohms -
Max current > 18 amps -
THD (total harmonic distortion) < 0.05% 20Hz - 20 KHz -
Frequency Response 3Hz - 25KHz - 1dB -
Power Amp Slew Rate > 40V per µs -
Input Sensitivity 450 mV for 50W -
Signal to Noise Ratio > 100 dB -
Separation > 60 dB -
Power Consumption at Full Power 260W -
Weight 6Kgs
Size 43 x 6 x 23cm

My whole point is, after just a bit of tuning the system internally, as well as tuning the room (speaker placement mostly); all of which are free, my Creek Evolution 50A is amazing. I am finding myself immersed in that holy grail of "3D SoundStage".... Depending on the recording, my soundstage is consistently several FEET outside of my speakers both to the right and to the left, as well as several feet behind and in front and sometimes behind me!

I have no idea what wizardry Creek does, but if a neutral to slightly warm, dead accurate and with a bit of Bass slam, and a huge sound stage sound appealing, keep them in mind.

Kind Regards,

Ron

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Nice review!

Just a quick update, I won the NAD turntable on eBay!

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

that is great. I hope you enjoy it.

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Hey all, I have to admit that my wallet tightness kicked in and I went for the creek a50i as it was going for not a lot of money. However I've now realised that it doesn't have a phono stage card and the built in cards aren't available now so may not be that much of a bargain! I can still get a Rega Fono MM MK2 stage to add totalling £200 less than the brio. Is it worth it?

Also, I've found some Rega R1 bookshelf speakers (second hand, good condition) for less than the Wharfdales. They appear to have been worth more than the Wharfdales to start, but I really don't know which will sound better - what do you think?

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

That is an overpriced phono stage. The Rega Fono would not be my first choice. I would look at a Musical Fidelity V90-LPS, a Vincent Audio Pho-8 or a Musical Fidelity M1-LPS if you have budget. Actually, the order in that sentence is backward, the M1-LPS is a first choice, Pho-8 second choice and V90 third. All will be better than the Rega.

I know nothing about the Rega R1s. I have never heard them

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Oh, I'm glad I asked - I was expecting the Rega to be one of the better ones!

For the phono stages you suggested how would you say these compare to the built in phono stage for the Rega brio r?

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

The Brio is better than the Musical Fidelity V90-LPS. With a Rega Cartridge I would say that the Brio R is close in quality if not the same compared to the Vincent or the Musical Fidelity M1-LPS. With a non-Rega Cartridge, the Vincent or the M1-LPS would be superior units.

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Ok, apparently it's a Rega 250 arm and Goldring Elektra cartridge so I guess that means the Vincent or M1-LPS.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

In the US, I have seen the Vincent on sale for $299 marked down from $399 and it is a steal at $299. That would be about 175 pounds I think

Strak
Strak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 10 months ago
Joined: May 17 2015 - 10:35am

Can't seem to find the Vincent model you suggested anywhere so I'm going to keep an eye out for a deal on the Musical Fidelity. As I got the amp quite cheap it's just about within budget.

Log in or register to post comments
-->
  • X