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papaned
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HiFi-Tuning Fuses

After reading the review, and being a sucker for cheap tweaks, I tried them in my system. I only had two line fuses to replace -one in my Simaudio Nova CD player and one in my Simaudio W-3 amp. The latter has no cct. board fuses for each channel [probably a good thing].
I couldn't be sure of any difference first in the amp, although it sounded great with it in. I could hear the small improvement in the CD player. Nothing like the significant change when I had all the caps replaced with Black Gates.
Considering what we spend on power cables, the $55. cost was a no brainer. I would recommend it.

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

$55 for some .glass Bussman fuses? Does it even have UL on it, hahahahaha. And you heard differences? What measured different? Besides teh money from your bank account? It's a good thing that the power supplys to teh driver boards ain't fused? Sounds like a poor design, most maps are fused, mine are 2 10A fuses for each side for the incoming supplys? Of course they are non audiophile, cus'...well you know..think about what you think you heard an improvemtn on the DC power supplys sound better now? that gotta be some kind of system resolution!!! WOW. What does your AC plug sound like? Now the DC supplies where not upped in current capacitys, not filtered more, you know some real electrical concepts to make things different, but a FUSE changed from a "regular" fuse to some so overpriced thing, and it of course you heard this fuse ? Really what would be measured differently? Wonder how much that full page ad costs in teh magazine, the fuse with flames and sparks shooting out of it!! Chinese fuses? When fuses do that, there is a real PROBLEM!!! Audio grade sparks!! Really do you feel foolish paying so much for a FUSE! Not even one with traceable spces like fuses come with like current handling time specs, flashover etc voltage ratings Checkout some real fuse specs at Bussman or Littelfuse....no audio grade there, how come?

papaned
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

How did I know that you would be the first to post your typical incoherent rambling nonsense. My post wasn't meant for you-ignore it !

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Many state that they can hear a difference. It's a fascinating possibility.

Thanks for the personal real-world observation.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Any reason the fuse can do what these people are hearing? Why wouldn't the fuse block or holder it's in, also need to be similar magic stuff? The fuse is still connected with the same hookup wire, wouldn't that interfere with the sonic magic imparted by this magic fuse? What technically is hapening that is audible? does it matter if the fuse is the AC mains, or fuses the DC power supplies to the driver boards. I have 7 fuses in my amps ea, should I get all 7, or just the one that imparts magic in teh ckt? Which one is where the magic happens? AC line, speaker fuses? +- DC supplies? I'd need 28 magic fuses!!! Come on now....Jack and the BeanStalk just needed one friggin BEAN to get his magic!!!!

59mga
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
I'd need 28 magic fuses!!!

With that many "magic fuses" you are sure to hear a difference.

I read at another site that the reason for the improvement in audio, when using these fuses is due to the fact that the fusable material is actually encased in ceramic material. This "prevents the fuse from resonating", as it would in a typical glass cased fuse.

I don't know enough to dispute this claim.

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Now let's discuss this. How does a resonating fuse affect what you hear? So this ceramic fuse, which by the way is actually a property in fuses for arc supression in those non audio grade things from Buss and Littelfuse. But since these are Audio grade fuses, they have managed to take a fuse, in ceramic, which is not anything audio realted, checkout www.bussman.com or littelfuse....see how non audio grade fuses have specs for certain electrical parameters. since this outfit has made audio grade fuses, how does this non resonant fuse affect sound at teh speaker? Wouldn't the fuse holder need this treatment, since teh fuse is physically mounted in this holder, no? Let's approach this with logic, how does it matter, if this fuse resonates or not, and what freq do non audio grade fuses resonate at that causes a problem? Please, since this is something being sold as real, there certainly has to be real science to back it up, right? Not just sparks in full page ads from marketeers? What sound do ckt breakers have over magic fuses? Wouldn't the power switch which is in front of this magic fuse also have audible effects? Explain to a non beleiver, convince me. to magic fuse or not to magic fuse, that is the very expensive question, think deep, do you think it could be.......a ruse, a pile of cow dung.....how is it working?

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Do you get specs from spark o mattic audio fuses. Real fuse mfg's offer real specs, see cerramic, nothing mentioned for audio. Do you have the spec sheet on magic fuses? http://www.bussman.com/pdf/d2ab7442-15c0-4fb0-a097-345e95695061.pdf

papaned
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Perhaps two highly respected professional audio reviewers, namely Mike Fremer in the Feb/o7 issue and Robert Deutsch in the Sept/07 issue, can come up with a technical explanation as to why they heard improvements with these fuses. Based on my limited tests, I have no doubt that they did.

bjh
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

ned,

I use an IsoClean fuse (glass casing) in my preamp and was pleased with the additional refinement afforded to the sound; $30 tweak, nice result, no-brainer!

DUP,

I think you made your point, unless, that is, your point is to demonstrate your aptitude at being a general annoyance. If the latter then carry on, otherwise I suggest you put a lid on it.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

What's different between these fuses and UL listed standards to teh industry BussMan or Littel fues? Surely there are some specs for these "audio" fuses, something has to be different that is measurable, since you all claim to be hearing a change. If it's that audible, it certainly can be measured, right? If you didn't know the fuse was changed, could you know by the sound...hmmmm, I thinking....no? What kind of fuse holder is needed with these?

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Those write ups are why i have a big question mark in front of me. MF must have ears beyond mortal? This is the same guy who hears ....and also hears.....Must be a pretty amazing fuse. Why don't any of teh mfgs recognize this as being useable and install it in say your basic $40,000 amp if it makes a difference.

papaned
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

For once you raise a legitimate coherent question. It shouldn't take a $40k piece for the manufacturers to add these fuses. It could be done for all the reasonably priced gear with the cost added in, particularly for front end equipment where the improvements are more noticeable.

59mga
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
How does a resonating fuse affect what you hear?

Maybe it acts as a reverberator.


Quote:
So this ceramic fuse, which by the way is actually a property in fuses for arc supression in those non audio grade things from Buss and Littelfuse.

I don't question that but beings glass is a non-conductive material would it act as an arc suppressor?


Quote:
...to magic fuse or not to magic fuse, that is the very expensive question, think deep, do you think it could be.......a ruse, a pile of cow dung.....how is it working?

"...a ruse...", never. "...a pile of cow dung...", no way. "...how is it working?", if I knew that I'd be a rich man.

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Ceramic takes more heat than glass. They are also more robust. Ceramic fuses are not designed for audio affects, some marketing wiz, decides it will sell to the audiophile crowd, ask teh question what won't audiophiles beleive. www.bussman.com Read all about fuse concepts and designs....audio isn't mentioned in any model, at least not as affecting the sound. Why is that at either Bussman or Littelfuse?

bjh
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Ceramic takes more heat than glass. They are also more robust. Ceramic fuses are not designed for audio affects, some marketing wiz, decides it will sell to the audiophile crowd, ask teh question what won't audiophiles beleive. www.bussman.com Read all about fuse concepts and designs....audio isn't mentioned in any model, at least not as affecting the sound. Why is that at either Bussman or Littelfuse?

Since I noticed you have an interest in promoting correct spelling and grammar (recent example) allow me to point out that it's "THE", not "TEH".

Oh by the way regarding that recent correction I must congratulate you as, YOU'RE an IDIOT, quite clearly is correct.

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

The to teh is neither grammer or a spelling issue, it's merely typing with my toes. But the use of YOUR when YOU'RE is appropriate is an indication of sumpthing Chinese in not learning grammer, or the proper use of contractions in about 4th or 5th grades? SUM TING WONG. Some also use BRAKE when BREAK is correct. And vice versa.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

then & than.......

It makes my scin krawl wenh I cee theso werds udes wrogn!

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
The to teh is neither grammer or a spelling issue, it's merely typing with my toes. But the use of YOUR when YOU'RE is appropriate is an indication of sumpthing Chinese in not learning grammer, or the proper use of contractions in about 4th or 5th grades? SUM TING WONG. Some also use BRAKE when BREAK is correct. And vice versa.

Is that some kind of racial slur? It certainly hints at such but I'll allow to a degree of doubt primarily due to the partial incomprehension that seems a near constant feature of your posts.

Perhaps you'd care to clarify? I'd think it would be wise to do so as I highly suspect the administrators of this site have low tolerance for racial slurs. As it's obviouly a sensitive topic may I further suggest you use your hands when pumping out the clarification.

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Hardly, don't you get the play on words, the sound, lighten up. Don't be having imaginary made up takes on nothing. Essssh, no wonder teh world is in turmoil, everyone is a bit over hyper sensitive, don't ya think. you can see how being so polictically correct and making sure no wurds bother someone, the world is in turmoil, maybe we should all go back to not picking on useless things and making them into something it ain't? Can't we all just get along....the wurds of a street philosopher. That famous saying made him big bucks. Now back to offending wire lovers....

bjh
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Hardly, don't you get the play on words, the sound, lighten up. Don't be having imaginary made up takes on nothing. Essssh, no wonder teh world is in turmoil, everyone is a bit over hyper sensitive, don't ya think. you can see how being so polictically correct and making sure no wurds bother someone, the world is in turmoil, maybe we should all go back to not picking on useless things and making them into something it ain't? Can't we all just get along....the wurds of a street philosopher. That famous saying made him big bucks. Now back to offending wire lovers....

I'm afraid I don't get the "play on words". Moreover as this is clearly a sensitive topic I would have hoped you would have taken my request for clarification with some seriousness and provided a coherent clarification.

bifcake
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Lighten up, dude. What clarification do you want? I understand what he meant. It was a figure of speech. You're making an elephant out of a mole. Take a deep breath and count to ten.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Getting back to the fuse issue...just out of curiosity, has any proponent of the tweak tried postulating what these fuses do to enhance the sound?

Just curious as to what someone skilled in the electronic arena might be able to say about this stuff.

Do the manufacturers ever mention what the superior fuses are suposed to do?

Has anyone tried them and not heard a difference?

Are there any scientific or industrial examples of very sensitive electronic gear that requires higher fidelity fuses for any other applications, or are we audiophiles alone in this regard?

You know, we have electronic gear that can "read" words that were written by placing indiviual atoms in "IBM" shaped arrays, so you'd think that at some point, things like directional wire and higher resolution fuses would have been implemented in those multi-million dollar devices if they really do enhance resolution or accuracy of signal, eh?

Not denying anyone the pleasure of hearing what those Hi Fi fuses can do, just wondering about a few of the details.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Lighten up, dude. What clarification do you want? I understand what he meant. It was a figure of speech. You're making an elephant out of a mole. Take a deep breath and count to ten.

If you wouldn't mind would you please point out the firgure of speech that I apparently overlooked.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Thanks for keeping this on-topic, Buddha. Guys, please follow Buddha's example and continue to focus on the issue of fuses. Thanks.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

If the fuse is located before the X-former, would it have less effect on the sound of the unit than a fuse that is the circuit after the X-former?

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Just curious as to what someone skilled in the electronic arena might be able to say about this stuff.

I suspect DUP or Ethan's comments would suffice.


Quote:
Do the manufacturers ever mention what the superior fuses are suposed to do?

Check their websites. The hyperbole reads pretty much like an ad for audiophile cable.


Quote:
Has anyone tried them and not heard a difference?

Of the reviews I've read, some have stated hearing very little if any difference when used in front end components. It would seem amps benefit most.

I believe I recall one reviewer claiming he thought the fuse might have been defective! What, pray tell is a defective fuse? Additionally, it is claimed by some that for those fuses with directional arrows on them, the proper direction of installation is easily determined by ear!


Quote:
Not denying anyone the pleasure of hearing what those Hi Fi fuses can do, just wondering about a few of the details.

Ditto!

RG

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Of the reviews I've read, some have stated hearing very little if any difference when used in front end components. It would seem amps benefit most.

Thanks for the tip. Guess now I have little reason *not* to try in my power amp! After all I'm more than pleased with the improvement I obtained putting a $30 fuse in my almost $8,000US preamp (well that's what it would have cost if I had bougth it new... I didn't!)

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Now audioville has fuses that are directional?!!! What won't an audiophile beleive? the only fuses i know are the large cartridge types for industrial panels, they have keyed ends on teh brass sections, mostly to make sure the locking spring holds them in AND so you cannot over fuse the panels. Glass AGC AGC types and others don't have any such deal...How does a fuse affect teh sound anywhere in teh ckt? If you go to teh www.bussman.com site you see teh specs on teh glass/ceramic AGC types, notice the specs, there is negliable resistance, etc. Audio fuses are a design of some marketers, absolute nonsense. Why not the fuseholder being sold with the fuse if it was legit? Not that an audio grade fuse holder is of any merit either

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Thanks for the tip. Guess now I have little reason *not* to try in my power amp!

You may want to consider the Isoclean fuses. Reviews seem to favor them and JVS has tried both and swears by the Isocleans.

Dup...look at all those electrical certs.!!!

As looney as it sounds I'm tempted to give em a try myself!

RG

EDIT: Ooops, sorry bjh. I just re-read and realized you are using the Isocleans.

RG

bjh
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

rgibran,

Thanks again.

[edit]

Let us know what you think should you try.
Cheers,

JasonVSerinus
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:

Quote:
You may want to consider the Isoclean fuses. Reviews seem to favor them and JVS has tried both and swears by the Isocleans.

Thanks for citing my reviews, RG.

A few months back, after I added both Theta's Carmen II transport and VTL 450 monoblock prototypes to my system, I received a new batch of similar-value fuses from IsoClean, HiFi Tuning, and PS Audio. I promised myself I'd perform a second round of comparisons, this time adding PS Audio to the mix. Then life intervened. For now, I can only reiterate that I've heard audiophile grade fuses make a major difference in my power cleaner/regenerators, transport, and DAC. (I put them into the VTLs without sufficient time to perform a before/after comparison).

As I write this, I also recall that a year ago, I promised myself that I'd also perform a comparison of CD sprays and waxes to see which seemed to have the most effect. Sometime in the future...

Gracias,
Jason Victor Serinus in Oakland, CA

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Just as FUNNY how now does Isoclean claim theirs sounds better, it's just glass, and Hi Fi tuning fuse gimick says CERAMIC is why they sound better......what is the science that backs this nonsense up......If both sound better, what is it magic glass? Logic doesn't allow this to be acepted as being for real.... what won't an audiophile beleive?

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Just as FUNNY how now does Isoclean claim theirs sounds better, it's just glass, and Hi Fi tuning fuse gimick says CERAMIC is why they sound better......what is the science that backs this nonsense up......If both sound better, what is it magic glass? Logic doesn't allow this to be acepted as being for real.... what won't an audiophile beleive?

DUP,

Excellent post, you actually managed to spell "THE" correctly!... and here I'd all but given you over as a lost cause.

Next I suggest you start working on the Redundant Rant aspect.

But Hey!, no rush, let's just enjoy this current accomplishment, you're coming along Baby, great work!

papaned
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

bjh
If your amp has fuses in the circuit boards, do try them. I was told by The Cable Co. when I purchased mine not to expect much in the amp main line, and that any perceived benefits occur with replacement of the individual channel fuses.

bjh
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Thanks ned,

However my amplifier, a Blue Circle BC22-II, has power line fuse only, and just one at that. However I'll likely still try since the same is true of my pre-amp, a Blue Circle BC3000-II, and I do get a nice improvement there; he's a link to a little mini-review I posted elsewhere (reviewing the responses shows that at least one person did suggest a potentially greater benefit trying in the power amp).

CECE
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Why is that possible, that the fuse in a certain part of teh circuit has a different effect? Did the sales people have anything of a scientific point that would lead to this conclusion, except that maybe it will sell you a few more grossly over priced fues...Anyone have any kind of measurments, test that show something that makes any sense of this concept? Surely something is measurable, besides the numbers coming off the credit card to buy this nonsense.

papaned
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Recall that when I started this thread, I said that it sounded great with the new fuse in the amp line, but that I couldn't be sure of any improvement. At $25., it didn't matter enough to do an A/B comparison. The CD player was different-I could hear the improvement and for $25, I didn't need to justify it by "measurements and tests".

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

DUP,

As you impress me as the sort with a rational mind I wonder if I could interest you in taking on a little investigative reporting assignment?

It concerns something that a group of moderately cool musicians swear to God they saw during a road trip through west Texas, somewheres round near Odessa apparently.

Well believe it or not they say that near dusk one fine day they came across Lou Reed in a pasture and that he was... you'll want to sit down for this... cow tippin!

I know, I know, sounds entirely incredulous, yet apparently the local authorities corroborated the claim.

Look what with all the spending on audiophile fuses I'm a little short of change but I could send you a Greyhound ticket to get you to Abilene from where you could then proceed on foot. Going by foot makes sense anyway given the high density of cow pastures.

I

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Recall that when I started this thread, I said that it sounded great with the new fuse in the amp line, but that I couldn't be sure of any improvement. At $25., it didn't matter enough to do an A/B comparison. The CD player was different-I could hear the improvement and for $25, I didn't need to justify it by "measurements and tests".

In the audio pathway - I can kinda see the point...but on the power supply side I would defy any piece of the sensitive test and measurement (4000 series Bruel and Kjaer - RTS2 Ferrograph) I have on my bench to be able to find a change.

Difference between Glass and Ceramic is the cheap glass variants are cheap and the ceramic are made with an interupt specification as per the standards.

The interupt current is not the current to which the fuse blows ... it is the current necessary to make the fuse errupt into millions of pieces (Catastrophic destruction).

Glass is used as it is an admirable insulator and safe... It also has the added benefit of being able to provide a visual inspection should the fuse material have parted.

But its interupt rating is low ... that is... on catastophic failure, it will shower bits of itself all over the inside of your amplifier.

With all due respect to the reviewers, I would need some convincing by metalurgists that a fuse could provide a substantial character change in the sound (enough to determine with the human ear), especially from the PSU end.

It then raises the next question ... if it does change the sound -- which is closer to the original performance?

These "magic fuses" or the originals?

I think I'm kinda with DUP on this one, sorry folks.
Not every change or gimmick is an improvement

Elk
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
The interupt current is not the current to which the fuse blows ... it is the current necessary to make the fuse errupt into millions of pieces (Catastrophic destruction).

While I like your much more dramatic description better, I have always thought that the interrupting rating or interrupting capacity is the maximum current a fuse can safely interrupt at rated voltage. That is, the fuse's maximum safe operating current.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:

While I like your much more dramatic description better, I have always thought that the interrupting rating or interrupting capacity is the maximum current a fuse can safely interrupt at rated voltage. That is, the fuse's maximum safe operating current.

It's common misconception that the fuse current rating and the interupt rating are the same. There is a book by Bussman relating to fuse design showing how they spec for electrical conditions and physical ones.

A typical spec would say something like.... Current rating of 5A at 32 Volts and an interupt rating of 1000Amps

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

I have a dumb electrical question...

With these gold plated ultra fuses, doesn't placing a gold fuse in a "regular" (zinc plated) recepticle create a situation of putting dissimilar metals in conact with each other and accelarate galvanic corrosion in the presence of normal humidity?

If so, perhaps we should be installing audio-grade dehumidifiers inside our components!

I already try to keep my interconnects the same material as the RCA recepticles, now this fuse thing is going to mess things up.

I vote for rhodium as the universal plating metal.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Not with gold, that's why it's used in lotsa electrical connectors, it doesn't do that. PtRh is even more robust.

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:
Not with gold, that's why it's used in lotsa electrical connectors, it doesn't do that. PtRh is even more robust.

That is very interesting!

Thank you!

Now I gotta go learn why!

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses


Quote:

Quote:

While I like your much more dramatic description better, I have always thought that the interrupting rating or interrupting capacity is the maximum current a fuse can safely interrupt at rated voltage. That is, the fuse's maximum safe operating current.

It's common misconception that the fuse current rating and the interupt rating are the same. There is a book by Bussman relating to fuse design showing how they spec for electrical conditions and physical ones.

A typical spec would say something like.... Current rating of 5A at 32 Volts and an interupt rating of 1000Amps

Yes, current rating and interrupt rating are different.

Isn't current rating the amount of current that will make the fuse blow and interrupt rating the highest current the fuse can safely be counted on interrupting/stopping from going through the circuit?

Ergonaut
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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Hi Elk

Hope you're having a good day

Yeah - pretty much before the actual fuse body disintegrates.

http://alans-sales.com/blog/2006/11/what_is_interrupt_rating.html

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Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Thanks!

I thought interrupt rating was an issue of arcing or otherwise letting the high current pass even after the fuse was blown. I didn't know that it referred to literal physical destruction of the fuse.

And here I thought your description was deliciously overdramatic.

CECE
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Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Look at teh ckt breakers in the service panel, most residentail ones are 10,000 AIC, so they don't explode with a direct full current short, the basis for that is avg distance from main transfoer, wire sizes etc. Fuses also need to not explode or reform from an arc, which is why htye also have voltage ratings. Ya don't use 32V fuses in 250V ckts...the arc could reform the link, and teh fuse ain't protecting nutin. Get teh Bussman or Littelfuse book, so much design and engineering in circuit protection....so little in teh audio fuses, since it's only some adevertising conartist who devised "aduio grade fuses, there ain't no such thing. What won't an audiophile beleive?

papaned
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Joined: Sep 5 2005 - 11:21am
Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

Have you considered trying some in your system ? I would be most interestd in the results.

CECE
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Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: HiFi-Tuning Fuses

I've used Bussman, Littelfuse and even a no name generic fuse. Only improvement in sound was when replacing a popped one did the sound be noticalbly better over the one it replaced. You really gotta put your logic in gear and think, how does a FUSE have any effect on the sound? After 50+ years of amps and preamps being mfg'd, no legit mfg mentions in their literature that a certain brand of special gold end or whatever is used for sonic reasons!!! there are of course ELECTRICAL reasons for a certain TYPE, rating, etc. NEVER does SONICS be mentioned. If the FUSE affects teh sound, why ain't the marketing fuse design crew, not offering a magic fuse HOLDER to compliment this sonic fuse design. And any ad for a fuse that shows sparks and flames is certainly not to be taken seriously, it's pure BS. Try those $25 fuses, and knowing it's in there and you spent the money, I'm sure you will hear the improvemtns....absolute BS. Do you still use Mapingo discs, green ink, how bout' some cable elevators, since the floor touching a wire affects the sound ya know. Better make sure you use some "special" designed wire that deals with the "vibration" affects on teh wire. What won't an audiophile beleive?

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