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tandy
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Is wire just a wire?

I found this article interesting. Is wire just a wire at audio frequencies?

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audi...ables_1985).pdf

ohfourohnine
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Re: Is wire just a wire?

Of course wire is just wire at audio frequencies, just as wine is just wine at room temperature. (If you need a more complete explanation, Carl will provide all the logical and scientific support you could possibly want.)

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

And a WIRENUT is a brand of twist on connector made by IDEAL. But in audio stuff it takes on an entire new meaning!!!! That was sure some fine "creative" writing in them pages, lotsa cool symbols that noone knows what they mean here, so that means it's important and must be true. Creative wrighting if i caught things about some weird shit for sure, equating absurd comparisons that mean nothing. Pretty soon I think someone whould devlop gravity compensated enhanced wire. cus you know how gravity affects everything, it certainly must affect what you hear, or don't hear. Then there should be gravity rated wall outlets, depending on what side of teh house, there will be west east north south rated wall outlets, since gravitational effects in different locations surely must effect teh sound that is affected by wall outlets.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?


Quote:
That was sure some fine "creative" writing in them pages, lotsa cool symbols that noone knows what they mean here,...


Actually, there are a number of people here who understand mathematics as the language of science.

It's an interesting article.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

Creative writing. Throw in nonsense about mountians and other bizzare stuff, similar to some reviews, when there is no basis for anything, write about imaginary things, under the guise that it's science. Use the correct guage and correct type wire for the job needed, it all works.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?


Quote:
Creative writing. Throw in nonsense about mountians and other bizzare stuff, similar to some reviews, when there is no basis for anything, write about imaginary things, under the guise that it's science. Use the correct guage and correct type wire for the job needed, it all works.

So Maxwell's equations, written some 130 years ago, and part of what Einstein used when working on relativity are "imaginary"? See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/maxeq.html

So now dup and his mentor frank are smarter than Maxwell and Einstein.
"Frank has said many times"
from:
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...e=0&fpart=5

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

No, again comphrehension is low low low. I said most of them formli is not even understood by anyone here I'm sure. The "creative" writing are what is thrown in between the impressive formula, and name dropping of famous discovers of reality. You obviously ain't reading it are you? Read teh prose in and around the formulas....lotsa creativity in writings about how most of this stuff matters, too bad the stuff doesn't in audio. They might as well write about anything and throw in some audio terms, to justify something. Comprehension is very important if you are trying to learn or disect writings. Poor comprehension leads to misinterpertations of facts that you may think equate to what is real. Audio for one thing does not have the effect of skin effect..so right there any mention of that item dealing with audio is crap. Skin effect is an item in high freqs. They can name drop galore, still doesn't mean it realtes to anything in audio. EEEESSSSHHHH. Lift any wires off teh floor lately, to hear an improvment?

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

Actually ain't da' language of SCIENCE like Latin or Greek symbols etc? Even French, Pascal, he be Z' French dude, Pa used for pressure levels....Math is not a language is it? What is the exact definition of mathmatics? Gordon Holt made his own language way back when, about the subjective terminolgy used in creative writings about how something sounds, does that make him some kind of guru, or just a creative writer? Sound is measured, then it's put into math, non subjective but exact facts. to say soemthing sounds brittle or airy is just poetic verbage........like the subtle wisp of a buttery fly's wind as it dances on the rose petals....then it gets STOMPED ON, by the BIG FOOT....

tandy
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Re: Is wire just a wire?

"No, again comphrehension is low low low. I said most of them formli is not even understood by anyone here I'm sure."

Does that include you? These are equations from Maxwell and others. And 6 reputable references.

"The "creative" writing are what is thrown in between the impressive formula, and name dropping of famous discovers of reality. You obviously ain't reading it are you? Read teh prose in and around the formulas....lotsa creativity in writings about how most of this stuff matters, too bad the stuff doesn't in audio. They might as well write about anything and throw in some audio terms, to justify something."

Interesting since audio signals are governed by the laws of Maxwell and others.

"Audio for one thing does not have the effect of skin effect..so right there any mention of that item dealing with audio is crap. Skin effect is an item in high freqs."

See page 6,7 for the formulas and resulting graph. The formulas are right there, in full view dup. Why do your mentors hide these formulas?

"They can name drop galore, still doesn't mean it realtes to anything in audio. EEEESSSSHHHH."

Well, how do you account for the formulas used And 6 reputable references?

Audio Engineering Society Technical Committee on High Resolution Audio.
Chair: Malcolm Omar J Hawksford (the author of the above article)

Here are the committee members:

Siegfried Linkwitz
Bob Stuart
Christoph Musialik David Chesky
David Guade
Derk Reefman
James Johnston
Juergen Herre
Kevin Halverson
Malcolm Omar J Hawksford
Mike Story
Stefan Geyersberger
Steven Harris
Takeo Yamamoto
Vicki R. Melchior
Josh Reiss
Wieslaw Woszczyk
David Walstra

Maybe you can claim Maxwell, Einstein are morons as well?

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

That's great that all them guys where on a comittee for high resoulution audio. Taht doesn't explain how you can hear wire, at audio freqs, wire is wire. Get the proper guage for the system involved, more importantly, the correct length, as in it reaches the connecotrs, that is teh biggest influence of all, along with large enough guage. Which one of that cast of many worked with Philips/Sony to pioneer SACD/DSD? Then they moved on to Blu-Ray.....anything else termed high resoution audio, is? Philips uses SLS speeakers in the studio too. A comercial pro grade loudspeaker, like teh stuff used at LIVE events, they might know something, every live event I see, has Speakon from Nuetrik, and heavy SO cord of heavy 12-10 gauge parallel wire...never seen anything fancy, jsut robust heavy cords, that are all over teh floor getting walked on taking a beating. None of the auido BS stuff hyped to the extrmes in ads, about all it's special proeprties, looks like live music events needs wires that hold up, and reach the other end. You ain't gonna hear wire, with all that magical superstions. You will hear a difference if you under wire it, use say 18 gauge for high powered stuff, switch to 12 ga you will hear it. that's just basic electrical propertys, nothing else. Did Maxwell do any listening tests, or did he just make up formulas? without listeneing what was he assuming? All them formulas, shouldan't he have listened, to finilize his conclusions? Plug the numbers in his formulas, see what ya get..let me know

tandy
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Re: Is wire just a wire?

First off, dup, the committee was the Audio Engineering Society, AES. I see you conviently left that out. Maxwell's equations were part of the foundation that Einstein used. That means they are the truth, whether you wish to believe it or not.

"looks like live music events needs wires that hold up, and reach the other end."

It is cheap and rugged. They are interested in distortion on the stage, not clean, pristine high end audio. That should be very easy to understand since you attend such events?

"You ain't gonna hear wire, with all that magical superstions"

So you are stating all the experts are liars (Some brilliant minds.)? These equations/theories have been around for over a hundred years? They certainly demonstrate that the skin effect is in play in the audio range. Insulation is also important according to the article. This is verified by a Phd Chemist.

http://www.audience-av.com/capacitors/a_chemistview.php

So I take it you are going to, from this moment forward, misrepresent these experts and their findings, and continue to recruit through misrepresentation and deception?

Afterall, why are you posting if you are not trying to change people's minds to believe you?

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

Tesla is my main man. did much much muhc more in inventing stuff. Maxwell wasn't so SMART either....Agent 99 was bbetter looking. Now back to wires and insulations, and LIVE events.
That's the beauty of pro stuff, if you look into it, they are super rugged, ya don't pamper them like home exotic stuff, they have terrific sound, you certainly are maybe still living in teh 60's as far as pro stuff for live events go's? Last QSC stuff i heard last Satrudya where impressive...compact, NO DISTORTIONS, the bass was boomy up close, that was due to how the guys set teh stuff, as I went way back out across teh park, the bass cleaned up, I heard teh bass paterns perfectly....No shrill, no distorions, the QSC stuff was really really good. Loked to be powered by lotsa CROWNS....great stuff rugged, enviormental proof, they take a licking and abuse. MAtter o fact, my band frineds are super into tone, etc, they hear teh difference between different amps, speakers, guitar STRINGS Guitars, so do I...LP gibson is teh best overall, Grretsch is middle Fender is bright, no so full bodied, it does matter, and PA pro stuff let's you hear it all, when done right, just like at home. Your perceptions of anything live, non classical is just distortions are really out of touch with reality, you need to attend more LIVE stuff....amlified acoustic guitars, pristine stuff, no distortion. My home system is teh refernce, kinda backwards, since the home system is used to re create the LIVE event, but my home system teaches me what distorions I can and can't hear...like a closed loop, OR catch 22.....Either way, So much great PRO stuff from QSC, JBL, Crown, EAW, so much, so much. No magic wires and cables, jsut stuff that WORKS, plugged in unplugged, wrapped up thrwon into a bag, later taken out and used agin, the stuff really takes a beating, as do the amps cabinets etc. Great stuff, The Fuchs and Komet amps are handled a bit softer, they go into their own foam protected travel cases, as does teh Leslie....ain't no distortions, just musical pleasure to the large crowds. Last outdoor thang was powered by some Honda generators....those things also just keep on going and going...Lotta cables laying on the GRASS, from the stage to the control boards...GRASS sounds fine, and not the kind ya smoke....this was a family event.....not the Manson Family either.....Kinda confusing, live is what i want at home to REPRODUCE, yet i use teh at home to reference what I hear and don't hear at teh LIVE stuff, makes my head spin.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

http://www.audience-av.com/cables/a_description.php This is teh same company you quoted as good examples of stuff. Here they claim smaller wires sound better, but others say larger, and these comedians tell me the wires sound better after 2-3 hours!! Huh? Oters say a few hundred, all "experts" that can't get their claims straight! And they get better and better? What's changing, means they must be using some pretty UNSTABLE materials in that magic wires of their's. BS to the max. Just like the majority of cable nonsense and connectors etc. Keep buying and trying, and convince yourself soem of this BS really matters. Amazing how wire has turned into a hi fi component over teh years.....great marketing. Bet business schools teach this in marketing class, how the scammers succed.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

DUP inquired: "Actually ain't da' language of SCIENCE like Latin or Greek symbols etc?"

When physicists or electrical engineers want to communicate a concept, they use mathematics. If they need connecting language, the standard is now English. Latin has not been used by scientists for hundreds of years, although Greek symbols abound, as in the article you link to.

Re: live sound: "never seen anything fancy, jsut robust heavy cords, that are all over teh floor getting walked on taking a beating. None of the auido BS stuff hyped to the extrmes in ads, about all it's special proeprties, looks like live music events needs wires that hold up, and reach the other end."

Comparing a PA system to a good home audio setup is the equivalent of comparing a jackhammer to a scalpel. Both wonderful tools, but each is ill-suited to do the job of the other.

The most interesting aspect of this thread is how objectivists so quickly reject science and/or measurements when it does not meet their preconceived bias. Why is it that those who declare "there is no scientific support for this product" typically have little understanding of science and are the first to reject the relevant science when it is presented to them?

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Re: Is wire just a wire?


Quote:
DUP inquired: "Actually ain't da' language of SCIENCE like Latin or Greek symbols etc?"

When physicists or electrical engineers want to communicate a concept, they use mathematics. If they need connecting language, the standard is now English. Latin has not been used by scientists for hundreds of years, although Greek symbols abound, as in the article you link to.

Re: live sound: "never seen anything fancy, jsut robust heavy cords, that are all over teh floor getting walked on taking a beating. None of the auido BS stuff hyped to the extrmes in ads, about all it's special proeprties, looks like live music events needs wires that hold up, and reach the other end."

Comparing a PA system to a good home audio setup is the equivalent of comparing a jackhammer to a scalpel. Both wonderful tools, but each is ill-suited to do the job of the other.

The most interesting aspect of this thread is how objectivists so quickly reject science and/or measurements when it does not meet their preconceived bias. Why is it that those who declare "there is no scientific support for this product" typically have little understanding of science and are the first to reject the relevant science when it is presented to them?

Right on Elk. Dup conviently dismisses science with one voice and then claims to be scientific out the other side of his mouth. Isn't that lying and deceit?

dup likes crown equipment. Need I say more?

dup also thinks live mic events are actually high fidelity?? He can't hear the difference between a live instrument and one miked.

Here is a link to a more comprehensive article, with actual measurements dup.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/index2.html

No wonder cryoing makes a sonic change, changing the crystal structure boundries.

You complain about companies being fraudulent.
Maybe you should slso worry about your own lying instead of pointing fingers at others?

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

Is there anything an audiophile won't beleive?...one of the greatest lines yet. From the RANE pro audio reference ...get it. learn, interesting stuff. www.rane.com Just cus' it's mic'd means it ain't live? What you talkin' bout' Willis? Likes Crown amps, sure do, so does thousands and thousands of others that hear em all the time. For some reason they sure are at a lot of live events. Out in the harsh enviorments of LIVE events. Sound great, work on and on. Of course true hi fidelity is from an 8 watt tube amp right? Yupper, that's sure realistic instruments sound. Is there anything an audiophile WON'T beleive? Great line, gonna become my mantra. Credit to teh author at RANE....they also make some niiiiice stuff. And not in China either, and it's priced for mortals.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?


Quote:
Is there anything an audiophile won't beleive?...one of the greatest lines yet. From the RANE pro audio reference ...get it. learn, interesting stuff. www.rane.com Just cus' it's mic'd means it ain't live? What you talkin' bout' Willis? Likes Crown amps, sure do, so does thousands and thousands of others that hear em all the time. For some reason they sure are at a lot of live events. Out in the harsh enviorments of LIVE events. Sound great, work on and on. Of course true hi fidelity is from an 8 watt tube amp right? Yupper, that's sure realistic instruments sound. Is there anything an audiophile WON'T beleive? Great line, gonna become my mantra. Credit to teh author at RANE....they also make some niiiiice stuff. And not in China either, and it's priced for mortals.

Still trying to cover your butt? Like Rane is great stuff?

Who said anything about an 8 watt amp?

"Is there anything an audiophile won't beleive?..."

Like the professional PHDs belonging to the Audio Engineering Society (AES) are inferior to you and Rane. They just make stuff up? Are you calling them liars?

I think this really demonstrates how screwed up you really are. No wonder no one wants to be around you.

"Just cus' it's mic'd means it ain't live? What you talkin' bout' Willis?"

If you can't tell the difference between a miked instrument at the live event and what the same instrument sounds like without the mic, something is wrong.

Maybe you should get some help before you completely self destruct, dup, imo?

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Re: Is wire just a wire?


Quote:
I found this article interesting. Is wire just a wire at audio frequencies?

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audi...ables_1985).pdf

The answer is the yes. A wire is just a wire. High frequency signals preferentially travel at shallow depths given by the skin effect. It is important to remember that while the speed of electrons may vary slightly in a given medium e.g. copper, the speed of electricity through a wire is always near the speed of light (3x10 e8 m/s). Very effin fast. The other thing that you can note is that ordinary stranded wire gauge 24 or better is sufficiently small that skin effect is irrelevant. For all practical purposes at audio frequencies using wire 24 gauge or better, yes Penelope, a wire is just a wire. The paper is in fact correct. If you bother to substitute real numbers into the equations and work them out this is what you get:
Notice below 40k using wire 24 gauge or higher yes Penelope a wire is just a wire.

Frequency.....Skin Depth (mm).....Wire Guage.....Radius (mm)
0.1.............208.61.......................1.............3.67
1................65.97.......................2.............3.27
10...............20.86.......................5.............2.31
60................8.52......................10.............1.29
100...............6.6.......................20.............0.41
1000..............2.09......................30.............0.13
2000..............1.48......................40.............0.04
4000..............1.04
8000..............0.74
10000.............0.66
12000.............0.6
14000.............0.56
18000.............0.49
20000.............0.47
30000.............0.38
40000.............0.33

DUP,

Those big honking wires (10-14 gauge) will move a lot of current but may have some problems with skin effect at higher frequencies.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

When cranked, I use lotsa CURRENT!!! 4 ohm drops lower, current baby, keep them woofers moving.

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Re: Is wire just a wire?

no one wants to be with me.....golly wally, why not? I am screwed up.....RANE makes great stuff, I'm glad you agree. Professional phD's? What is that? There are those who ponder theorys and those who work in reality...is there anything an audiophile won't beleive? Keep asking yourself that, eventually something will click. How bout the phD dude who runs like the pro audio operation has so many brands in his company, it's an amazing growth over teh past 50 years....can you guess who? Dr. Harman....Harman International. Works in reality, and atually developed stuff back during the pioneering days before magic cables, and tea cups, and the sound of wall outlets. Can YOU hear teh sound of a vibratin wall outlet? some scammers selling teh stuff sure are trying to convince the gulliable it happens, could that be YOU? FuruFLAKE Enterprises....is there anything an audiophile won't buy into? Checkout some great stuff from Harman....JBL, AKG, so much more, no wall outlets though, I guess they don't understand stuff right?

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Re: Is wire just a wire?


Quote:

Quote:
I found this article interesting. Is wire just a wire at audio frequencies?

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audi...ables_1985).pdf

The answer is the yes. A wire is just a wire. High frequency signals preferentially travel at shallow depths given by the skin effect. It is important to remember that while the speed of electrons may vary slightly in a given medium e.g. copper, the speed of electricity through a wire is always near the speed of light (3x10 e8 m/s). Very effin fast. The other thing that you can note is that ordinary stranded wire gauge 24 or better is sufficiently small that skin effect is irrelevant. For all practical purposes at audio frequencies using wire 24 gauge or better, yes Penelope, a wire is just a wire. The paper is in fact correct. If you bother to substitute real numbers into the equations and work them out this is what you get:
Notice below 40k using wire 24 gauge or higher yes Penelope a wire is just a wire.

Frequency.....Skin Depth (mm).....Wire Guage.....Radius (mm)
0.1.............208.61.......................1.............3.67
1................65.97.......................2.............3.27
10...............20.86.......................5.............2.31
60................8.52......................10.............1.29
100...............6.6.......................20.............0.41
1000..............2.09......................30.............0.13
2000..............1.48......................40.............0.04
4000..............1.04
8000..............0.74
10000.............0.66
12000.............0.6
14000.............0.56
18000.............0.49
20000.............0.47
30000.............0.38
40000.............0.33

DUP,

Those big honking wires (10-14 gauge) will move a lot of current but may have some problems with skin effect at higher frequencies.

There are a couple of points he is making.

First, there is the skin effect.

Second, there are loses because of, as the author terms it
"loss field", which causes smearing of audio fields.

Third, there are "crystal boundaries suggest discontinuities in s, such that the
conductors appear more like stranded, though disjointed, wire where such discontinuity represents a point of at least partial reflection and field redistribution."

The article would explain why so many hear a difference when cryoing.

Some wire has no such crystalline structure as well.

So wire is not just a perfect and simple conductor as some think, but is much more complex at audio frequencies.

By the way, Mchale, better check the speed of electrons in wire again. It was measured decades ago.

mchale
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Re: Is wire just a wire?


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
I found this article interesting. Is wire just a wire at audio frequencies?

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audi...ables_1985).pdf

The answer is the yes. A wire is just a wire. High frequency signals preferentially travel at shallow depths given by the skin effect. It is important to remember that while the speed of electrons may vary slightly in a given medium e.g. copper, the speed of electricity through a wire is always near the speed of light (3x10 e8 m/s). Very effin fast. The other thing that you can note is that ordinary stranded wire gauge 24 or better is sufficiently small that skin effect is irrelevant. For all practical purposes at audio frequencies using wire 24 gauge or better, yes Penelope, a wire is just a wire. The paper is in fact correct. If you bother to substitute real numbers into the equations and work them out this is what you get:
Notice below 40k using wire 24 gauge or higher yes Penelope a wire is just a wire.

Frequency.....Skin Depth (mm).....Wire Guage.....Radius (mm)
0.1.............208.61.......................1.............3.67
1................65.97.......................2.............3.27
10...............20.86.......................5.............2.31
60................8.52......................10.............1.29
100...............6.6.......................20.............0.41
1000..............2.09......................30.............0.13
2000..............1.48......................40.............0.04
4000..............1.04
8000..............0.74
10000.............0.66
12000.............0.6
14000.............0.56
18000.............0.49
20000.............0.47
30000.............0.38
40000.............0.33

DUP,

Those big honking wires (10-14 gauge) will move a lot of current but may have some problems with skin effect at higher frequencies.

There are a couple of points he is making.

First, there is the skin effect.

Second, there are loses because of, as the author terms it
"loss field", which causes smearing of audio fields.

Third, there are "crystal boundaries suggest discontinuities in s, such that the
conductors appear more like stranded, though disjointed, wire where such discontinuity represents a point of at least partial reflection and field redistribution."

The article would explain why so many hear a difference when cryoing.

Some wire has no such crystalline structure as well.

So wire is not just a perfect and simple conductor as some think, but is much more complex at audio frequencies.

By the way, Mchale, better check the speed of electrons in wire again. It was measured decades ago.

1. You didn

CECE
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Re: Is wire just a wire?

World of difference? And this large difference is audible, how much difference? Like I can hear this difference?

mchale
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Re: Is wire just a wire?

DUP, click on the link...

tandy
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Re: Is wire just a wire?

"The answer is the yes. A wire is just a wire. High frequency signals preferentially travel at shallow depths given by the skin effect."

Some don't believe that. Some believe a wire is perfect.

"It is important to remember that while the speed of electrons may vary slightly in a given medium e.g. copper, the speed of electricity through a wire is always near the speed of light (3x10 e8 m/s)."

Whooops, I misread your comment. Sorry about that McHale. You do know. Good. Of course electrons travel at different speeds, depending on the medium.

"1. You didn

CECE
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Re: Is wire just a wire?

Click the link, I did, how's your Windex? http://www.jimloy.com/physics/windex.htm

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