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Why vinyl is KING

While thumbing through a dusty Goodwill bin full of LPs I find Andy Williams "Moon River and Other Great Movie Themes" Columbia CS-8609, year 1962. Cost 75 cents.

A dusting off and wet wash later Andy never sounded as good spinning on my platter the LP is mint! After being swooned for 37 minutes I put Andy in his new home, a fresh inner & outer sleeve for his nap, a short nap for sure.

This is why vinyl is KING

Buddha
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

No matter what the subject matter, I gotta salute a fellow vinyl lover.

Kudos!

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

I have always been a huge Andy Williams fan. I've seen him in concert 3 times when he and I were younger. I have most of his albums, in good condition mainly because I have played them to death over 30+ years.

I detested the use on many of his recordings of the Aphex Aural Exciter. For what ever reason they thought Andy's voice needed "something" besides a decent, small amount of reverb.

To me his best recordings were Close Enough For Love:ATCO 90561-1 1986, recorded by John Arias in London Air Recording Studios; and Greatest Love Classics, Capital/EMI ST-12387, 1984. The sonics are excellent.

Greatest Love Classics, this is a spectacular recording of well known classical music with words written and arangements by Tony Hiller and Nicky Graham. This was recorded at Abby Road Studios by John Kurlander, mastering by Steve Rooke, and at CBS London Engineered by Mike Ross. Recorded with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

I also have the CD of Greatest Love Classics, but I loaned the CD of Close Enough For Love and never got it back. Both in vinyl are real keepers.

I was so touched by Greatest Love Classics that I called Tony Hiller in London and talked to him for almost an hour about the sessions. He was most gracious. He was most surprised that Andy, by then, was much more popular in Europe than in the U.S. He said Andy was the most gracious gentleman he had ever met and what a experience those sessions were. Oh, to have been a fly on the wall....

I also like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett and really appreciated the minimalist micing of their voices to what Andy's engineers did to him. To hear most of Tony and Frank's recordings is like "real voices" in person, with nothing artificial added. With voices like that who needs processing.

ohfourohnine
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Andy Williams notwithstanding, vinyl will always reign for some of us. My treat for today was a vinyl rebirth. Years ago I bought the Concord recording entitled "The Red Hot Ray Brown Trio" - Gene Harris, Brown and Roker live at the Blue Note New York 1985. Loved it and played it almost as much as its predecessor, "Don't Forget the Blues" by the same group. Today I got another copy of Red Hot Trio - Groove Note issue, two records at 45 rpm this time. It sounds so good! The first copy lasted twenty years, this one should outlast me. The King is dead, long live the king. Let someone else wait to see what Blueray does, I haven't the patience.

Monty
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Album covers were the art work in my first apartment. Well, that and pizza boxes.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Pizza Boxes...Salvidor Dali....Andy Warhol...just poor college kids...really...the breakfast of champions...LOL

I hope you all go to Michael Fremer the web site and check it out. He does a great job with reviews of new lps, mastering info, what's coming out, and he is about to put out a TT set-up DVD that should fun and informative.

I wish I had the time to go to the Cornell Seminars and hear him and AD. That would be a treat. Those would be DVD's worth owning. Hint. Hint. !!!!!!

JoeE SP9
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Vinyl is king because it simply sounds better. I have many selections on vinyl and RBCD. In every case the vinyl walks all over the CD. Even with clicks, ticks, pops and various "rice crispie" noises vinyl sounds better.

CECE
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Last LIVE show I went to, I didn't hear any pops, clicks, ticks. How can something with these "ERRORS, sound better? SACD has no pops. clicks, ticks. Sounds more REAL, ALIVE than a snap crackle pop poor rendition. Alsoo larger dynamic range, which makes it even more ALIVE. Hang on to your beleifs, cus' it's not based in reality. I listen to vinyl, SACD smokes most of it, when listening to the same recording on LP versus DSD/SACD. AND the added benefit of ease of use, convienence. AND with every play of a record, it's wearing it out, so the next time, you are getting LESS LESS LESS. Do you still use a rotary phone too? Black and White tv? With a nice big clunky knob tuner? Let's see the next BEST TT review, let's go for a $120,000 motor on a base with a spinning platter. And I am familar with soem decent TT I use a VPI with asome VPI JMW' arms, 3 of em actually each cartridge sounds a bit different. These LP revier dudes are in a world of make beleive. Like hanging on to the last drop of water. $30/ for high quality LP's is going backwards, when everything in consumer audio is getting better and CHEAPER.

Buddha
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Why would such an SACD suck-up want to troll the vinyl forum, anyway?

Shouldn't you be over on the digital board telling people to throw away their CD's or something?

I look forward to next year when you are posting about the new blue ray player knocking out those sucky SACD players.

I'm starting to get an idea that someone's been head banging and killing ear cells for too long - which makes me worry about the long term effects of 1200 watts, times two, per channel.

I would wager you have essentially zero vinyl/SACD overlap in your collection and you're just full of bovine digestive products.

With all that cash you toss around for extra tonearms, use your 8.2 megapixel digital camera (which is better than analog film ever was) and post us a pic of your rig.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

I would suggest that the vinyl dissenters get the SACS/CD and the LP of K622 and then make some comparisons. I would agree that if care does not go into the LP pressing all CAN be lost. That is not the case here. The vinyl is to die for.

I was listening to some old "greatest hits" discs and the sound was so bad that you could tell no care went into the pressing. The engineering track to track was variable as well. No amount of CD/SACD could fix this. These discs were made just to make money and little else.

We all have bad engineered CDs, but I must say the my classical lps that have just been remastered to 3 channel SACD still stand up well for being 40+ years old. There is really no point to put out something on SACD unless you are going to care about the sound. I will admit that I do like really black backgrounds. My virgin vinyl gives me close to that.

Then we come to the 2-channel SACD Norah Jones being excluded. Some marketing people think we are all stupid, until John Marks exposes them. No amount of marketing can fool the ears. My Kind Of Blue LP is just as much fun as the CD. I bought the CD after owning the LP just as a test. I was not missing anything.

I have some great vinyl and, yes, a good vacuum record cleaner is a huge help. For me this is half the fun. With proper care the "rice krispies" go away and great sound emerges from a medium that is an engineering marvel. There are some really bright people that I am glad work in the audio field.

With Sony moving away from SACD it is obvious some of their brighter people have left the building. It is too bad as we will never have the vinyl releases that COULD be sold if available. At least I can go to Michael Fremer's Music Angle and find out much that is worth owning.

I am not that "bent"' about people who don't get vinyl. That's why we now have books on tape. Too many will just not put in the effort. It just leaves more used bargains for the rest of us. What a great hobby spinning vinyl. Thanks to the likes of Michael Fremer and Stereophile's willingness to include vinyl, it will out live me and probably my grandchildren. My son, Nick, can explain to them this is how really old people used to do it. LOL

ohfourohnine
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Don't beat around the bush, DUP, tell us what you really think of vinyl and those of us who still love it. But first you might try to relax.

"To each his own", said the farmer as he kissed the cow.

CECE
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

don't have 8.2 megapixel, just about 3.2 or sumptin'. I have many SACD/LP/CD of teh same music. SACD smokes em all. Besides ease of use,less storage space, blah blah blah blah. I have LP's stcked to the ceiling, in that same amount of space a lot more SACD's would fit, each new optical format keeps getting better and better. Eventually moving optical will fade, for just semi conductor no mechanics. It's coming. Memory is getting cheaper and cheaper. Remeber when they said nothing could replace the horse drawn carriage? Vinyl is an obsolete format, accept it. It does not sound better than SACD, only in the purveyors of the stuff and those who get a pay check for talking about it. I listen to lotsa' vinyl, it's a pain in the ass as far as ease of use, clean the thing (VPI 16.5) Been there done that, still do that. I wanna see how Mr. Vinyl MF morphs into a non LP reviewer over time. How can a jet airplane replace a propeller plane, propellers are so much better. AM how can FM possibly replace AM, Sirius, how can it possibly replace FM? Blu-Ray is not a performance improvemnt as far as I read about it, but a data storage issue in order to hold HD data. SACD was a performance improvement due to sampling and more data storage over CD.

CECE
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Watts don't kill ear cells, distortion does, watts don't always mean loud, it means clarity, control and realism. Don't listen to any of the crap you mention. Mostly Albert King, Matt Oree' www.mattoree.com Albert Collins, SRV,Gary Moore,Jimmy D. Lane,Tinsley Ellis, Buddy Guy, Stones and several hundred other real musicans.

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

DUP,

Nice to see you're branching out into other areas. I hope you try politics -- the voice of reason would be SOOOO welcome in that particular arena. Speaking of crap. I don't know Albert Collins, but I DO know his brother Tom. SRV?? Is he the jerk who invented the Hummer? You misspelled Jimmy D. Lane -- it's Jimmy B. Lame. Tinsley Ellis...that's a nickname, right?? after his ears?? Buddy Guy. Hmmmm. I know Chummy Pal, but not this "Buddy" guy. The Stones??? No WONDER you hate vinyl!! I love their tunes, but they are singularly responsible for the worst sounding LP's ever put to lathe. Seriously. It's nice to get your reasoned, seasoned, and well-documented opinions on what's "crap" in the history of Western Music. Let's see. Everybody on the planet celebrated Bach's birthday last week, and Mozart's tricentennial was feted to the furthest reaches of the galaxy last month. When do they celebrate THESE guys' birthdays?? I haven't mused this kind of obscurity since I sat through the screen credits for "Hoot Gibson and the Sheriff's Daughter" at a Saturday Matinee when I was 9. On the positive side, I just scored 4 virgin Pablo's last month, 8 bucks a pop at Rockaway Records:"The Gifted Ones" (Dizzy Gillespie, Count Basie, Ray Brown, and Mickey Roker), "Jazz Maturity...where it's coming from -" (Roy Eldridge, Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown, Dizzy, and Mickey), "Basie Jam" (The Montreux Festival, 1975), and "88 Basin Street" (recently remastered by JVC XRCD, $25 + shipping -- I own them both and often compare them). Concerning this latter: the differences are subtle, but the original vinyl has greater image depth, width, AND precision, as well as FAR greater dynamic contrasts. I bought all the original Sony classical SACD releases (2-channel, SACD only) -- about 20 or so. SEVEN of them (yes, that's a 7!) will no longer play on my original Sony CD-1. It just refuses to read 'em any more, as did the Krell I auditioned at the ol' salon the other day. 20 bucks a pop, and they are now frisbee material. So much for the superior longevity of SACD, eh? The vinyl I bought as an undergraduate in the early-to-mid '60's, after being plowed by a Pilot portable, several Gerrards and a few Duals, not to mention the more modern (read MIRACULOUS) Koetsu's, Benz-Micro's, and Clearaudio's I have owned since then, STILL (after 30+ years) play flawlessly and sound as gorgeous as they did when I bought 'em. Crap. Hmph. On the other hand, I guess maybe you would know -- you're so full of it your eyes are brown! In general, vinyl just gives you more music, period. Less gets squeezed out in translation. I have no idea why this should be so, not being the technical genius you obviously are, but I think the reasons might be similar to the reasons a real pig's leg tastes better than Spam -- more meat, closer to the bone, no reassembly required. Anyway, enjoy your tunes...whoever it was who wrote them. SRV. Hmph. Peace and love, Clifton.

ohfourohnine
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Hi Clifton,

Two points: 1- I've still got my originals of Jazz Maturity and The Gifted Ones too. Play them a lot. Fun isn't it. 2- Regards DUP, the forum has a useful feature that I've only used twice - "Ignore this user". Check it out.

Cheers.

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Yo, Cheapskate, nice to hear from you. Yeah, amen to both 1 & 2. Funny, I've loved vinyl and jazz all my listening life, and didn't even find out about Pablo until a couple years ago. Yes, it is a LOT of fun. The nice thing about these artists is they always lift you up. A friend of mine, who isn't as much interested in ultimate-sounding gear as I am, has a great criterion for judging great music. Says it has to have "lift." It has to bring you up. I am SO lucky. Like everyone, I have had many, many bad days, but, even on the WORST of them, the Duke and his ilk always make me smile, and the blues be gone. I think the vinyl thing is simple, classical, jazz, or pop. There is simply more music coming out into the room. Even the best of CD's and SACD's sound like something is missing, and, believe me, I have a lot of digital I wouldn't part with for anything. But vinyl is king because it captures more music. Period. Happy tunes!
Clifton

JoeE SP9
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SACD is soooo good Sony is trying their best to forget they ever invented it! Here in Philadelphia I have plenty of venues to hear live music. There is no doubt live is best of all. Vinyl just happens to be second best. When I compare SACD, DVD-A, RBCD and vinyl there is no question which is best. VINYL, of course. All my lady friends think vinyl sounds better and their opinion means much more to me than any male. Women do have better and more sensitive hearing. I have been asked when switching from CD to vinyl "Did you put on a CD?". When told it is vinyl the response is "I thought CD's were supposed to sound better?" My evenings usually progress rather well from that point if I continue to play vinyl. BTW I use a VPI with a Rega arm. Even this modest rig sounds better than any digital front end I would ever consider buying. Are you one of those who sold his vinyl when CD's were introduced? If so I thank you for enriching my vinyl collection. I got some really good stuff for little or nothing back then.

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

DUP,
Don't listen to any of the crap you mention. Had the Stones SACD's, and they were more smeared, seared, and flat than the vinyl, so I traded 'em in (at $4 per...and I was damned happy to get that) on some Haydn quartets. Used to listen to Les Paul on the juke box, when I was a teeny-bopper in the '50's. The reverb went well with the bad grass we smoked. Grew out of it. Don't listen to any of the crap you mentioned. Don't crap out before you get a chance to grow up. Cheers, Clifton.

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Hi, JoeE. I have the Rega 350 (a 300 that Basis modified for using with their tables). I listened to arm/cartridge combinations for as long as I could stand the fuss, then bought the Rega because it sounded as good as ANYTHING and would accept any cartridge you screwed onto it, at 1/2 to 1/10 the price of the others I heard. Yes, I have some great-sounding SACD's, too, and I'm keepin' 'em, but, as you say, nothing approaches vinyl. Happy tunes, Clifton.

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Re: Why vinyl is KING


Quote:
the forum has a useful feature that I've only used twice - "Ignore this user". Check it out.

I suggest that more forum members use this feature, partly because I cannot; I have to read every one of our little, childish teasing posts, and I'm getting tired of it.

We appreciate the passion and enthusiasm, but: Play nice, please.
Thanks.

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Hi, Stephen,
Sorry. I just couldn't resist taking a few pot shots. Actually, I kind of like Muddy Waters. Les Paul? I vaguely remember some pleasurable sensations, but I really WAS too stoned to make valid judgments. You're right, of course, and I WILL try to behave. SRV and the others? -- well, if he IS the guy who started the trend culminating in Hummers and Tahoes...may the snot from a thousand camels grease his way to hell. I hope they pay you well for policing us miscreants. We certainly are grateful for your time and trouble, and especially for the opportunities they provide us to share our thoughts on the forum. Happy tunes. Hoard that vinyl!! It's worth its weight in gold (actually, hoarding some of the metal of kings might not be a bad idea, either). Clifton

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Quote:
We certainly are grateful for your time and trouble, and especially for the opportunities they provide us to share our thoughts on the forum.

No worries, Clifton. It's (usually) a great pleasure. And we love the fact that our readers want to share their thoughts here. It's awesome. No harm in a little fun.

Play ball.

Buddha
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Quote:
...the forum has a useful feature that I've only used twice - "Ignore this user". Check it out.

Clifton!

Have you been talking to yourself the last couple of posts?

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Hi, Buddha,
Yeah, I do that on occasion -- who else would listen to me? Hey, it's a rainy day in LA and I'm sober. Too much time on my hands. Why don't you loan me a member of your posse? I promise to treat her nice. Actually, I was thinking of hooking up my tube amps (Audio Innovations monoblocks -- EL-34's... you probably never heard of them, as I got 'em for 1/3 price when the retailer went belly up, and they never made Stereophile except as an advertiser). There's a rare chill in the air and I need the space heaters. I can't believe there are so many people out there who gave up on tubes and analog! Only 4 more hours 'til happy hour! Cheers, Clifton.

Buddha
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I'm sorry, amigo, I was making a weak joke about Stephen.

Like, I had him on ignore and wondered who you must be talking to.

My bad.

Anyway, I hope we get to meet during the Stereophile Show in June. Time to start counting days!

smejias
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Re: Why vinyl is KING


Quote:
I'm sorry, amigo, I was making a weak joke about Stephen.
Like, I had him on ignore and wondered who you must be talking to.

That's messed up.

Buddha
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Did you guys just hear something?

Buddha
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

OK, so. I just don't have my "A" game today.

ohfourohnine
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

I feel compelled, Clifton, to respond to your statement that you only found Pablo about two years ago. Since there's a chance you haven't found them yet, here are some Pablo recordings that you need in your collection:

"Passion Flower" Zoot Sims plays Duke Ellington 2312-120

"A Celebration of Duke" Zoot Sims, Clark Terry, Sarah Vaughan, Joe Pass, Milt Jackson, Mickey Roker, Ray Brown 2312-119

"Memories of Duke" Clark Terry Five 2312-118

"Yes, The Blues" Clark Terry, Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson, Art Hillery, John Heard, Roy McCurdy, and Harmonica George Smith D2312-127

Obviously, Ellington, Clark Terry, and Zoot Sims are high on my list of greats.

If you already have these, you know why I recommend them. If not, try to find them, they're worth it.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Hi Clifton;

I settled on the RB300 for much the same reasons you did. I have SACD's, DVD-A's, RBCD's and vinyl. I buy any of them to get the music I want. After all, it is about the music. I'm waiting for a copy of Sticky Fingers on CD, DVD-A or SACD with a real zipper like my vinyl copy.

Anyone wanting to get rid of vinyl because they don't like it please drop me a line stating titles, prices and condition. evans_jm@verizon.net

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Cheapskate,
Wow. Thanks a lot for the "heads up." I will now be searching the bins all over town for THESE, you can bet on it. Yeah, the Duke and Clark Terry are as good as it gets. I'm just hooked on "Lester Leaps in." I have an old Cadet Ramsey Lewis ("Dancing in the Street") that I love, and the Duke's "Blues in Orbit" on Columbia -- these latter two were purchased just after I got back from Viet Nam (1969) and helped ease the pain. I got 'em at the House of Music in Salt Lake City, played 'em on a Pilot portable that tracked at about 17 pounds, and they STILL sound better than anything I've ever heard on digital! Thanks again for the list! Cheers, Clifton.

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Steve, Buddha,
Ah gots mah tickets!!! I'm gonna buy you BOTH a cold one...and I'll be packin' the .357 Colt I used in 'Nam, so don't try throwin' 'em at each other! I just HATE lappin' perfectly good beer off the floor... Cheapskate, you comin' too?? Clifton.

CECE
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Get invigorated with REAL music, not Jazz or other confusing stuff, THIS is what it's all about. SOUL, FEELING, ENERGY, EMOTION, and incredible guitar wailing.

CECE
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JoeE SP9
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Re: Why vinyl is KING


Quote:
Hi Clifton;
I settled on the RB300 for much the same reasons you did. I have SACD's, DVD-A's, RBCD's and vinyl. I buy any of them to get the music I want. After all, it is about the music. I'm waiting for a copy of Sticky Fingers on CD, DVD-A or SACD with a real zipper like my vinyl copy.
Anyone wanting to get rid of vinyl because they don't like it please drop me a line stating titles, prices and condition. evans_jm@verizon.net

I must correct my email address if any vinyl haters wish to sell me any.
evans_jm1@verizon.net

disco paul
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Well, I think most of us vinyl lovers here will admit that setting up to get good sound is generally harder with vinyl than digital. Once that hurdle is crossed however, magic happens. The sound to my ears is more complete, more natural. Sometimes digital systems have a spotlighting effect. That's not to say however digital is bad, even cd. The quality of digital music has greatly improved the last several years.
I recently pulled out some vinyl to make digital transfers for listening in the car. I'm still impressed by the sound my vinyls have, even in some cases 30 year old stuff.

JoeE SP9
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I still own and occasionaly play the vinyl I bought when I was in the service in 1966. I always took care of my vinyl. It was only played on my TT's. Even with my first TT (Benjamin Miracord/Pickering) I did what I could to keep the records clean. That effort paid of as I now have hundred of older pieces of vinyl that sound fantastic. I must also thank those whe sold their vinyl when "perfect sound forever" was introduced.

gkc
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Re: Why vinyl is KING

Dear DUP,
Yes, I can certainly understand how Jazz and Classical might be "confusing stuff" for your "wailing" sensibilities. However, there's no accounting for individual taste, so, in the words of Bob Dylan, "...you go your way, 'n I'll go mine." Happy tunes, Clifton

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Re: Why vinyl is KING

I have heard some magical music more than a decade ago, on a friend's system, which included an Oracle TT, Alphason Arm and a Koetsu Red cartridge thru B&W 801 speakers. That memory lives with me.

Today, where I live, viny;l disc are just not sold in stores. The only access to these are pre used ones, at 'garage sales'

The majority vote seems to say that Vinyl is still king.

However, I was reading John Atkinson's review of the dCS P81 player. ( He found the Arye Universal player, at less than half the price quite a match for the dCS)

However, his summing up remarks, are :

" Even as Sony appears to be backing away from SACD as a mainstream format, it has become the de facto standard for the highest quality classical recordings. "

JA seems to be endorsing DUP's view that SACD tops vinyl...

JoeE SP9
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The key thing here is that Sony is backing away from SACD. There is no denying that SACD's can sound better than vinyl. How many actually do?
I have 2500 or so LP's maybe 1000 CD's and 2 dozen SACD's and DVD-A's. I am still adding to my vinyl collection and of course I will buy more RBCD's. When SONY drops SACD what will there be for high definition sound? Vinyl, of course.
If DUP or anyone else wants to get rid of their vinyl drop me a line. If I don't already have it I will probably be interested. I suppose the new high definition DVD's will have some sort of higher quality audio. My bet is that the DRM crew will f**k that up.
That will leave us with vinyl as the only high quality recordings.
Wanna sell your vinyl?

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