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Stephen Scharf
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Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements?

So, with all the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands over whether the Furutech demagnetizer is snake oil or not, I've got a good one for y'all..

Introducing the Synergistics Research Acoustic ART (ART is an acronym for Analogue Room Treatment):

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/?p=195

Real or more high-end hoo-ha? I've heard the professionally set-up main listening room of a well-respected high-end Bay Area dealer with and without this "system" , if you can call it that.

I'll hold my insights for now, and let youse guys jump in with your thoughts.

Have fun, guys.

JasonVSerinus
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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

I have not sat through a whole demo of the Synergistics Research Acoustic ART system, but they've been doing them at shows, and will possibly conduct one at CES. I suggest you ask them. If you can get in to CES, it would be another good reason to attend. T.H.E. Show probably still has rooms at "good for CES at least" rates, and Southwest probably has room on flights.

I can tell you that we in the Bay Area Audio Society invited Darren Censullo of Avatar Acoustics to perform an Acoustics Resonators demo at my house. The difference with and without the things was stupefying. I ended up with five of them, which I use. When my husband is feeling particularly evil, he plays with them to see if I notice. I usually do.

It was at that demo that I also learned how powerful the Shakti Hallographic Stabilizers are. My room was set up the afternoon before the demo while I was out shopping for food and drink. When I returned and sat down to listen, I had the weirdest sensation. We played RR's Rach Symphonic Dances, and it seemed as though the orchestra was split in two, with the left half far closer to me than the right. It turned out that one of the set-up folks, concerned that I wouldn't like where he wanted to put the left Hallograph, moved it considerably farther from the rear wall than the other. It made a huge difference.

I have since learned a lot about the placement of the Hallographs (which I use in conjunction with my five Resonators). We recently had two friends over for a second round of music listening, and one complained that the imaging and focus he had experienced over here at the first listening session was absent. "Bring back those two tree things that you used to have in the middle of the room," he said.

"My husband hates them there," replied I. "Hence, they're banished to the corners, where they make far less of a difference because the room is so large. But since you've asked, I'll move them back for now. I have the correct placement marked on the floor with tape."

Two minutes later, with everything lined up and dialed in, focus and three-dimensionality had returned to Casa Bellecci-Serinus.

Again, I have no direct experience with the Synergistics system. I do find it fascinating, however, and would love to give it a try sometime.

I love how you say "Have fun, guys." Maybe we can share popcorn sometime.

Yes, I expect that if this thread takes off, it will be more of the same. Folks who haven't heard the system or the devices I'm describing will pontificate, Ethan will post his absolutes, others will short circuit their capacitors, and at least one person will claim that my brain has turned green with atrophy. I shall remain silent from hereon and enjoy the music.

jason victor serinus

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

It would be very interesting to understand how these things work if they do work.

Jason, would you do an informal blind test?

Just close your eyes or put on a blindfold and have someone move the objects and see if you still hear a diff.

Of course, sometimes they will need to pretend to move the things, eg. make noise etc.

If the differences are as large as you say it should be pretty easy to identify blind.

If I were to audition these types of products that is what I would do.

I wouldn't let a blind test be the only determining factor in a purchase decision. A positive result would likely cause me to buy if I liked the diff. and thought it was musically important.
A negative result would not preclude a purchase but I would probably be more cautious and take longer to decide. If I can't pass a blind test that means to me that the diff. are very subtle and MIGHT not be important to me or it means there is a strong possibility the placebo effect is in play.

At least with these types of treatments there is something different in the room and I would certainly be open to trying them.

I do think Ethan's products are a less experimental approach to to room treatment backed by easily understood acoustic principles.

How's that for a diplomatic statement ?

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

Hi Tom,

I'm on constant deadlines, and don't want to get into back and forths on this. In fact, I should probably take a break from the forum, period, so I can get my work done.

Simply put, John Atkinson, myself, and others at TAS and Stereophile have written extensively on the shortcomings and limitations of blind testing, as well as the fallacy that measurements tell you everything you need to know about how a product sounds. We've experienced the limitations for ourselves. I've also written at least one passionate As We See It on the subject.

I am not interested in wasting my time or anyone else's time buying into faulty methodology so that others who deny my reality can gloat. I did that once, many years ago, and am not falling for it again.

If anyone needs to truly believe that stock power cables sound the same as Nordost Valhalla or Nordost Odin power cables, they are free to believe it. For those who have heard the difference, and have the means to enjoy after market power cables and tweaks, pleasure and joy awaits. Everyone else can find their joy in rejoicing that their stock cords are just as good. The same holds true for other products.

That some people insist that blind methodology is the only foolproof methodology, no matter how much is published about its limitations and fallacies, says more about their belief systems than anything else.

As for my belief system, it should be evident. My post describes the differences I've heard. If direct experience isn't good enough for someone - if they're going to play the "objective" vs. "subjective" game, and throw the placebo effect stuff at me, as though a music critic abandons all powers of discrimination when listening to music on a high-end system - so be it. I have nothing to prove.

I'm outa here. As they used to say on Saturday Night Live, discuss among yourselves.

jason

Stephen Scharf
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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

Jason,

Well, I heard them and at the same place that you can hear them (Music Lovers in Berkeley). I'll still withhold my comments for now, and let the thread develop.

BTW, on a side note, I'm dropping a check for dues for BAAS membership in the mail to you today. Let me know with a PM when you get it so I can plan on attending future BAAS meetings.

Regarding popcorn, the Furutech Snake Oil thread started off interestingly, but then degenerated in to figurative name-calling and character disparagement, it was amusing to lurk and watch the soap opera for a while (hence, the popcorn), but it got boring and tiresome pretty quickly. It's the thread that will not die.

Lookin' forward to a listening session at Casa Belluci-Serinus some time in the near future. I'll have to bring the patented "Audio Bladder" over for an A/B.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

By the way, the "Vibratron" name for the big Tibetan prayer bowl thingy (complete with magnets, yeah!) sounds like some device out of an Ed Wood sci-fi film. Muhahahahaha!

Ya gotta love it!

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
I've got a good one for y'all..

I believe these have been discussed here already. Given the small size of these "room treatment" devices and total lack of supporting evidence, I'm sure you can imagine my opinion.

I will grant that they look very cool!

--Ethan

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

Ethan,

Personally, I think they look silly.

That said, I don't see what size has to do with it.

I help teach Design for Six Sigma at the biotechnology company where I work, and we stress to our participants that they understand what they are trying to accomplish at a functional level before they jump to design.

There is no pre-requisite that functionality must be correlated with size.

Regards,
Stephen.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:

There is no pre-requisite that functionality must be correlated with size.

When you are dealing with acoustic design/treatment , size has everything to do with function.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
I don't see what size has to do with it.


Acoustic treatment, which is what these devices claim to be, is all about surface coverage. A room might have 1,000 square feet of reflecting surface, so to make a meaningful change in the sound inside that room requires covering a reasonable portion of that surface. Let's say at least 5 percent. Tiny bowls barely larger than a thimble are simply not up to the task.

There is an exception to the above, but it's not what you'd want to add to a room meant for music listening. The exception is you can change the sound by adding a device that intentionally resonates. Or buzzes or rattles for that matter. For example, an acoustic guitar in the room can resonate when excited by sound from the speakers, and that would be audible even though the guitar has only a few square feet of surface. Some of these too-small devices even claim to be "resonators" of one sort or another. But adding resonance to a listening room is a terrible idea. This is why John Atkinson always shows self-resonance for loudspeakers in his reviews. In this context resonance is a bad thing. Always.

All that said, those devices are way too small to do anything - good or bad. If they were legitimate and really did "improve bass response" as claimed, the company would have some sort of data proving their effectiveness. At the minimum they'd show the bass response with and without them in the room. Of course they don't.

--Ethan

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:

Quote:

There is no pre-requisite that functionality must be correlated with size.

When you are dealing with acoustic design/treatment , size has everything to do with function.

That depends on how the functionality is achieved. If you're thinking in a conventional sense that it works by attenuation of reflections in the same way acoustic damping materials like Sonex, etc. do, then there would be a correlation with surface area and functional response.

But if the functionality is based on a completely different principle or set of principles, then, no.

There's more than one way to skin a cat; in this case, out of the box thinking might apply.

Resolving contradictions like this (small size, significant functional response) are the principles of TRIZ as developed by Altschuler.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
But if the functionality is based on a completely different principle or set of principles, then, no.


Can you give a very specific example of these completely different principles?

--Ethan

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
Resolving contradictions like this (small size, significant functional response) are the principles of TRIZ as developed by Altschuler.


From the Altshuller web site:


Quote:
TRIZ is a powerful methodolog, based on empirical data, that can provide solution concepts for a wide range of problems.


Emphasis mine. So please can we see some hard, cold, empirical data on the Acoustic ART system? Thanks.

--Ethan

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Stephen Scharf
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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

Ethan,
Per your question, with respect to acoustics, no, but I can with respect to molecular biology.

Your and Nc's comments are based on thinking that this device would work in the same way as conventional acoustic materials....but my point is that there are numerous examples in technology that demonstrate how the same functionality can be achieved using different principles, different embodiments, to achieve the same functionality (or, some cases, notably better functionality.)

C'mon, guys, you're thinking conventionally. The whole point of TRIZ is that people go about solving problems they way they always have, by doing and repeating what they already know. The way you guys are thinking is that there is only ONE way to deal with room treatments, the conventional way; it's specifically this type of "historical" thinking which led Altschuler to develop TRIZ.

Altschuler's point in developing TRIZ was to think about resolving conflicts and learning to how resolve these conflicts based on the learning of others in other disciplines. The point of this thread is to get some unconventional thinking going and some interesting discussion as a result.

Whether you think it may or may not work isn't point. Start thinking about how and/or why it COULD work.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

I'm fine with results produced in non-traditional ways! I think outside the box all the time. You must have missed my totally nude female stripper acoustics video.

But as expected, you have failed to produce any evidence of results. It's not up to me to consider how tiny bowls might possibly improve the bass response in a room. It's totally up to the vendor to prove that it does work!

--Ethan

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

I don't find the Hallographs all that controversial. One cool thing I've heard them do is make the sound worse, as well as better. That's often a good sign for when you are investigating a tweak.

With regard to the art cups, I tend to have bottles of wine and glasses in the room...so they may be redundant.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:


Quote:
TRIZ is a powerful methodolog, based on empirical data, that can provide solution concepts for a wide range of problems.


Emphasis mine. So please can we see some hard, cold, empirical data on the Acoustic ART system? Thanks.

--Ethan

Ethan, I'm a scientist and Six Sigma Black Belt, I teach DFSS.

I eat, sleep and breathe cold, hard data, dude. I beat up (figuratively) my product managers at work when they come to me and say they want to develop a product and they don't have any data that supports it is a value proposition for customers.

I don't have any data for Acoustic ART; I just heard this demo'd for 20 mins. at a store yesterday, with and without it being set up.

I would *love* to get some data, and to do some experiments.

First, we have to figure what to do measure, and then how to measure it.

But, by thinking about how it might work first might provide insights into how to measure the effects.

Cheers,
Stephen.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
I'm fine with results produced in non-traditional ways! I think outside the box all the time. You must have missed my totally nude female stripper acoustics video.
Quote:

I haven't I will have to go check that out!

Quote:

But as expected, you have failed to produce any evidence of results. It's not up to me to consider how tiny bowls might possibly improve the bass response in a room. It's totally up to the vendor to prove that it does work!

--Ethan

I don't have to produce data, and I haven't even said if it works or not. I don't work for Synergistics, or have any relation to them.

I'm just asking what you guys think.

(though I would love to figure out how to produce some data! )

Cheers,
Stephen

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
Hi Tom,

I'm on constant deadlines, and don't want to get into back and forths on this. In fact, I should probably take a break from the forum, period, so I can get my work done.

Simply put, John Atkinson, myself, and others at TAS and Stereophile have written extensively on the shortcomings and limitations of blind testing, as well as the fallacy that measurements tell you everything you need to know about how a product sounds. We've experienced the limitations for ourselves. I've also written at least one passionate As We See It on the subject.

I am not interested in wasting my time or anyone else's time buying into faulty methodology so that others who deny my reality can gloat. I did that once, many years ago, and am not falling for it again.

If anyone needs to truly believe that stock power cables sound the same as Nordost Valhalla or Nordost Odin power cables, they are free to believe it. For those who have heard the difference, and have the means to enjoy after market power cables and tweaks, pleasure and joy awaits. Everyone else can find their joy in rejoicing that their stock cords are just as good. The same holds true for other products.

That some people insist that blind methodology is the only foolproof methodology, no matter how much is published about its limitations and fallacies, says more about their belief systems than anything else.

As for my belief system, it should be evident. My post describes the differences I've heard. If direct experience isn't good enough for someone - if they're going to play the "objective" vs. "subjective" game, and throw the placebo effect stuff at me, as though a music critic abandons all powers of discrimination when listening to music on a high-end system - so be it. I have nothing to prove.

I'm outa here. As they used to say on Saturday Night Live, discuss among yourselves.

jason

Hi Jason,

I am a subjectivist as well and I agree that blind testing has limitations. However I can't completely reject that approach, IMO, it does serve some function in making purchase decisions.
I am puzzled that some subjectivists so completely dismiss placebo and blind
testing . To me that constitutes as much a closed mindedness as the objectivists who refuse to accept a difference could exist that can't be measured and who insist a difference does not exist if the blind test is negative.

A negative result in a blind test only means that those test subjects under those particular conditions heard no difference at that moment.

Conversely a positive result does show conclusively that a difference does exist.

I truly wasn't trying to bait you , I am genuinely curious what such a test might show.
If I owned your treatments I would want to do this as a fun experiment.

Anyway if you ever do decide to try that I would love to know the results.
You could always PM me.

As a musician, I know what a critical part ear training plays in being able to identify what it is we hear.

If I were at your house and heard no differences from your room treatments I would 1st ask you to pinpoint what you hear and try to hear that myself.
If I couldn't hear it then I would still not come to a conclusion that no difference exists. I would suspect that those treatments are possibly not for me. However I would also recognize that I am more tuned in to my system than yours and I would still want to try them out on my system.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
I would *love* to get some data, and to do some experiments.


Are you not even a little curious as to why the vendor offers no data? It's not like these doohickies are inexpensive! They're making some pretty big claims, and charging a HELL OF A LOT of money. If you really are a scientist who lives and breathes hard data, I'm surprised you overlook the vendor's lack of hard data.


Quote:
First, we have to figure what to do measure


Well, since they claim an improved bass response, that would be the logical place to start, no? Bass response is very easy to measure!

--Ethan

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

> Real or more high-end hoo-ha?

But the high-end/audiophile industry is based on hoo-ha (if I understand the term correctly) and so it would qualify as real for those audiophiles that have chosen to adopt beliefs in this area. For those that hold conflicting beliefs, such as scientific beliefs, it would not qualify as real.

A related question would be are "acoustic resonators" (quotes required due to my system of beliefs) going to become sufficiently mainstream to be reviewed in Stereophile?

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
I'm fine with results produced in non-traditional ways! I think outside the box all the time. You must have missed my totally nude female stripper acoustics video.

Ethan-

You've done more for the the teenaged boy's understanding of room acoustics than any man alive. You've got my vote for the Nobel peace prize.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
It's the thread that will not die.


It's also the thread where none of the naysayers will answer a question, including you for that matter. Dozens of questions have been asked of those opposed to the Furutech device on the very basis that it exists even though they've never even seen one. Not one single question has been answered by the one side, no matter how many times thay have been asked for a single simple response. Not one. That's high end thinking for you!

So why'd you start yet another thread that will degenerate in the same fashion? More easy cynicism? Are you that bored?

Thinking from results to cause is not what these guys do best. Stoping the covnversation is what they are about. Just watch, it'll happen here too.

I suspect Ethan can't hold back from insulting me for whatever reason.

Tell'em I don't know nuttin', Ethan, 'cause you don't like the description of my system - even though you never even seen it.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:
> Real or more high-end hoo-ha?

But the high-end/audiophile industry is based on hoo-ha (if I understand the term correctly) and so it would qualify as real for those audiophiles that have chosen to adopt beliefs in this area. For those that hold conflicting beliefs, such as scientific beliefs, it would not qualify as real.

A related question would be are "acoustic resonators" (quotes required due to my system of beliefs) going to become sufficiently mainstream to be reviewed in Stereophile?

Good question, the likelihood, I guess, is no greater than Stereophile would ever review a $6 inner tube, regardless of how well it worked.

I mentioned the effectiveness of the inner tube to a sales guy at a high-end shop, and he dismissed the inner tube thing, saying that they couldn't make any money selling it...they'd rather sell myrtle blocks with little logos stamped on them at $45 a pop, and $1200 for a dozen "dark matter" field eliminators/cable raiser blocks made of out two different pieces of foam rubber glued together.

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Quote:
I mentioned the effectiveness of the inner tube to a sales guy at a high-end shop, and he dismissed the inner tube thing, saying that they couldn't make any money selling it ...

That is a fact. Did he tell you it wouldn't work and you needed to buy the myrtle blocks? I told you the inner tube has drawbacks like any other device in audio, but you didn't want to hear that. I gues it didn't have enough "value proposition for customers".

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Quote:

Quote:
It's the thread that will not die.


It's also the thread where none of the naysayers will answer a question, including you for that matter.

So why'd you start yet another thread that will degenerate in the same fashion? More easy cynicism? Are you that bored?

Thinking from results to cause is not what these guys do best. Stoping the covnversation is what they are about. Just watch, it'll happen here too.

I don't remember being asked a question in that thread, nor did I ever say I was a naysayer. My questions were around Furutech's measurement system.

As for easy cynicism, I never said whether the ART thing worked or not....just wondering what people might think of it.

If anyone is being cynical, it's you, thinking my only motive is to be cynical.

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Quote:

Quote:
I mentioned the effectiveness of the inner tube to a sales guy at a high-end shop, and he dismissed the inner tube thing, saying that they couldn't make any money selling it ...

That is a fact. Did he tell you it wouldn't work and you needed to buy the myrtle blocks? I told you the inner tube has drawbacks like any other device in audio, but you didn't want to hear that.

Every design has drawbacks, Jan. I never said the inner tube was perfect, only that it made my system sound better, which it does.

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Quote:
they'd rather sell myrtle blocks with little logos stamped on them at $45 a pop, and $1200 for a dozen "dark matter" field eliminators/cable raiser blocks made of out two different pieces of foam rubber glued together.


And there you have it in a nutshell.

--Ethan

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

I didn't say that, I said there's a lot of easy cynicism on this forum and too many people play to that crowd.

Stephen, I know what you said on the other thread, I was there. You certainly could have answered a few of the questions and I didn't see you saying you believed the Furutech device could work whether it operated as they described or not. There were more than enough opportunities for you to get into the discussion without knowing how the measurements were taken. The thread isn't even about how the measurements were taken. Is that all that's important to you? I thought you were aksing for people to think from the results back to the why? I can tell you that isn't going to happen here. Been there, done that all too often. It ain't gonna happen.

If you are being so open minded, which I believe you are, why not go back and answer a few of the questions on that thread? Bring your popcorn and get the discussion started without the insults that come with every thread regarding anything outside of the "machines tell us what to think" crowd's safety zone. Tell someone not to be insulting but to answer questions and defend their statements. That would be a step in the right direction instead of just letting it happen. When anyone on my side says that we just get more insults hurled at us.

You want a discussion? There's one that's been trying to get started over there for almost thirty pages. But stopping any discussion is what that thread has become all about for most of the "contributors" - and I do use that term loosely.

I don't know about "customer value assessments" or whatever else you are talking about. And I never debugged a digital communications system. That doesn't make me a drooling, f'ing idiot. If you want to talk, we can find a way to talk. If you need to talk over someone's head, well, then just continue on here. That would seem to me to be why this thread started. Am I wrong? If not, what's the purpose here?

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Quote:
And there you have it in a nutshell.

As someone here is fond of saying, I rest my case.

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Quote:

Quote:
That is a fact. Did he tell you it wouldn't work and you needed to buy the myrtle blocks? I told you the inner tube has drawbacks like any other device in audio, but you didn't want to hear that.

Every design has drawbacks, Jan. I never said the inner tube was perfect, only that it made my system sound better, which it does.

Gosh, I hate to be a PITA but there was a question in my post. You failed to answer it.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o

> Good question, the likelihood, I guess, is no greater than Stereophile would ever review a $6 inner tube,
> regardless of how well it worked.

The inner tube is to put under a record player? Or something else?

> I mentioned the effectiveness of the inner tube to a sales guy at a high-end shop, and he dismissed the
> inner tube thing, saying that they couldn't make any money selling it...they'd rather sell myrtle blocks
> with little logos stamped on them at $45 a pop, and $1200 for a dozen "dark matter" field eliminators
> /cable raiser blocks made of out two different pieces of foam rubber glued together.

A high-end shop would sell an inner tube if the markup made it worthwhile and significant numbers of customers wanted it due to, for example, positive reviews in audiophile publications like Stereophile. Stereophile would review it if they judged audiophiles wanted to read about it and it did not conflict with their business model.

I can see no reason an inner tube for $100 or even a $1000 could not work as an audiophile product. It obviously cannot work at $6.

Jan Vigne
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Quote:
I can see no reason an inner tube for $100 or even a $1000 could not work as an audiophile product. It obviously cannot work at $6.

Playing to easy cynicism?

Not to mention some plain ol', "I ain't gonna think about it 'cause I don't want to" unawareness of BrightStar's product line - or several other companies marketing similar devices.

I rest my case.

What do you think is going to happen to this discussion, Stephen? You tossed them the read meat, now you have to sit and watch them eat it.

What was this thread about?

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Let's wait and see...

Hopefully it will stay on topic.

JSBach
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Quote:

A high-end shop would sell an inner tube if the markup made it worthwhile and significant numbers of customers wanted it due to, for example, positive reviews in audiophile publications like Stereophile. Stereophile would review it if they judged audiophiles wanted to read about it and it did not conflict with their business model.

Hm, I wonder where we can get access to a copy of their business model?
High-end shops would sell inner tubes if they had any WAF at all. As it is putting an inner tube between two concrete paving slabs (my preferred method) or whatever in 'she who must be obeyed's' lounge room is a recipe for huge drama.

Quote:
I can see no reason an inner tube for $100 or even a $1000 could not work as an audiophile product. It obviously cannot work at $6.


Well yes but then if they make then look 'respectable' with a high degree of WAF then they will be able to charge for the cosmetics. And lets face it, the industry loves charging for cosmetics.
I haven't read all this thread - I'm lazy - so forgive if I'm repeating anything. When I ran a Rega turntable some years ago the inner tube and paving slab trick worked a treat with isolation but I found you had to get the pressure in the tube 'just right'. Heaven for tweakers though.

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Quote:
Hopefully it will stay on topic.

Yeah, looks like we're off to a flying start.

OK, I haven't heard the Synergistics Research Acoustic ART's, they're not the type of thing that gets much play here in Dallas. However, from what I have read about them, I can see how they might fit certain situations just as I can see how a 24" tube trap can be the appropriate choice for other situations. The problem with so many of the alternative treatments of any type is typically the simple approach taken by those who do not care to think from result to cause or outside of their comfort zone. A specific mindset intrudes on their thought process and nothing gets beyond what they already know. Then we'll end up discussing amplifier measurements and someone will say the ART's can't work because cables are too expensive. The same as every other discussion of alternatives on this forum. Here's to hoping that doesn't happen this time.

I know that's not very technical for you but that's where I stand on this, as if anyone doubted.

What are you looking for from this discussion?

And are you ready to try keeping it on track? If you are, you might want to remove that "snake oil" from the thread title, it only draws the sharks like bloody chum in the water.

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Quote:
Introducing the Synergistics Research Acoustic ART (ART is an acronym for Analogue Room Treatment):

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/?p=195

Some of those things remind me of the products on this page

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Quote:
I didn't say that, I said there's a lot of easy cynicism on this forum and too many people play to that crowd.

Stephen, I know what you said on the other thread, I was there. You certainly could have answered a few of the questions and I didn't see you saying you believed the Furutech device could work whether it operated as they described or not. There were more than enough opportunities for you to get into the discussion without knowing how the measurements were taken. The thread isn't even about how the measurements were taken. Is that all that's important to you? I thought you were aksing for people to think from the results back to the why?

My questions regarding how the measurements were taken were with respect to Furutech posting data that supposedly supported their claims. But the data wasn't sufficient in context or content to know whether it did or not.


Quote:

If you are being so open minded, which I believe you are, why not go back and answer a few of the questions on that thread? Bring your popcorn and get the discussion started without the insults that come with every thread regarding anything outside of the "machines tell us what to think" crowd's safety zone. Tell someone not to be insulting but to answer questions and defend their statements. That would be a step in the right direction instead of just letting it happen. When anyone on my side says that we just get more insults hurled at us.

I couldn't agree with you more, and was pleased when you made efforts to get the thread back on track.


Quote:
You want a discussion? There's one that's been trying to get started over there for almost thirty pages. But stopping any discussion is what that thread has become all about for most of the "contributors" - and I do use that term loosely.

I'll go back when I get a chance and see where I can contribute to getting the thread back on track.

FWIW, I've been having a lot of problems with my ISP the last few days (again...sheesh).

Right now, I'm going to take a break and watch Hancock in Blu-Ray.

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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements?

JA covered the Vivid/Luxman/Synergistic Research room at the 2008 RMAF. Interestingly he made no mention of the ART system, only the cables.

Comments from, ahem..show attendants follow his blog. Decide for yourself. Sounds like manufacturer planted testimonials and shilling to me, but then I

Jan Vigne
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Well, we got to the point of cable cost much sooner than in most of these threads.


Quote:
... there is no justifiable reason for it to cost what it does.

The justification is the improvement rendered.


Quote:
However the manufacturer claims the units have been "Quantum Tunneled" and just the use of the word sets off my BS filter!

Do you also distrust anything colored blue?

It doesn't prove the effectiveness of anything so treated but there is a video of the process on the manufacturer's web site. There are also designer's comments posted in the same area. Did you visit this site? Did you read the comments?

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Well, we got to the point of cable cost much sooner than in most of these threads.

That was a pretty good prediction, actually.

andy19191
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>> A high-end shop would sell an inner tube if the markup made it worthwhile and
>> significant numbers of customers wanted it due to, for example, positive
>> reviews in audiophile publications like Stereophile. Stereophile would review
>> it if they judged audiophiles wanted to read about it and it did not conflict
>> with their business model.
>
> Hm, I wonder where we can get access to a copy of their business model?

It is the same business model as pretty much every shop on the planet: stock stuff for which there is a demand and a markup to cover the costs of stocking it. Luxury goods have a stronger dependence on marketing than non-luxury goods but this is only a matter of degree.

> High-end shops would sell inner tubes if they had any WAF at all. As it is
> putting an inner tube between two concrete paving slabs (my preferred method)
> or whatever in 'she who must be obeyed's' lounge room is a recipe for huge
> drama.

I wholly agree that looks are very important for luxury goods. In the case of audiophile accessories there are plenty of examples of where it dominates any considerations of whether the product works in the scientific sense (which is not the same as in the audiophile sense).

In the case of an inner tube that is soft enough for the turntable to bounce at 1 Hz or less it will function as an effective passive vibration isolator. This is almost certain to have an audible (in the scientific sense) benefit for many record players operating under normal home conditions. Yet audiophile shops are far more likely to be successful selling expensive small stiff rubber feet with a fundamental resonance that is far too high to work effectively as a passive vibration isolator at frequencies that are important for a typical record player.

The situation is very similar for the "acoustic resonator" that is the topic of this thread. In a scientific sense, so long as they are not placed very close to the ear or the source they will not audibly change the sound field in a room impinging on the ear. Big ugly conventional room treatments will audibly change the sound field in the room. Usually a lot and in a wholly beneficial manner if done wisely. Yet many audiophiles, who do not know how either product works and are not interested in finding out, are far more likely to go for the "acoustic resonators".

It is quite odd how audiophiles do not seem to make a distinction between products that make an audible change in a scientific sense and those that do not.

Jan Vigne
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Quote:
This is almost certain to have an audible (in the scientific sense) benefit for many record players operating under normal home conditions.

Actually, that would be wrong. But that's not what this thread is about.


Quote:
In a scientific sense, so long as they are not placed very close to the ear or the source they will not audibly change the sound field in a room impinging on the ear.

Without firsthand experience with the ART's I'm going to guess that's wrong too.


Quote:
It is quite odd how audiophiles do not seem to make a distinction between products that make an audible change in a scientific sense and those that do not.

Very nice, after all this time, you've identified the topic of this thread. You're still wrong but you're getting warmer.

ethanwiner
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Quote:
Some of those things remind me of the products on this page


Actually, those are the very same products, just photographed from a different angle. I understand from Nathan that he's a dealer for ART.

--Ethan

Buddha
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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements o


Quote:

Quote:
Some of those things remind me of the products on this page


Actually, those are the very same products, just photographed from a different angle. I understand from Nathan that he's a dealer for ART.

--Ethan

Those are brilliant!

At only 299.99, he must have run out of this one...

Jan Vigne
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Quote:
That was a pretty good prediction, actually.

Want me to tell you how the rest of this thread will go now? It's pretty easy. Winer will make this thread come to a complete stop as far as discussing the original topic. He'll make several comments about DBT's and just measuring simple stuff telling you everything you need to know. He'll stick to his size is all in room acoustics and ridicule anyone who thinks differently. The "audiophiles is fools" crowed will join in for another chorus of "Just DBT it".

Basically Winer will dominate this thread to keep it away from being a discsussion of anything. It will likely turn into another series of personal insults all with Ethan's little smiley face attached to everything and he'll claim none of it is an insult. Well, not true, there are few of us here he does enjoy insulting and the moderators allow that to happen without any reaction from them. The real point is any time anyone tries to bring it back to your original topic, Winer will take it into the ditch again.

The moderators of the forum will do nothing to maintain a civil conversation among the few truly interested patrties - which Winer knows, that's why he stays here. If you say anything to Winer, one of his little followers will tell you how unfair you're being and how much Winer has done for pro audio. There are several who come just to thrown gasoline on the fire once it has started, they are particularly entertaining if you're trying to stay on point.

The thread will degenerate into whatever Winer wants it to be about, anything insulting as long as it's not the original topic. Winer will get more and more insulting and farther and farther from the original topic. Others will follow. If you say you found value in the ART's system or think it might be beneficial or try to make a point about the system, sorry, you're fair game. This thread isn't going to stay on topic any more than any other like it. The fools are on their playground now.

That will be the next five to seven pages, after that things will really go to shit. This is not a "discussion forum" in any way, shape or form. Sorry you were fooled.

judicata
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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements?

Come on now Jan.

First, it would probably be very bad for the moderators to go too far in content-based censorship. Someone has to decide what is an insult, what is un-civil, etc. Of course they have to control flooding, spam, and perhaps racist/extremely bigoted remarks (especially those that could invite legal troubles). But, very very few successful forums (or "fora" rather) have strict moderation. It chills conversation even if you don't say anything that would be censored. I'm not saying they don't have a right to do it - they own the forum. I'm suggesting it is a bad idea. I would feel a little suffocated in such an environment, and you probably know it is not in my character to resort to ad hominem attacks (although, I admit I accused you of being negligent once - it was preceeded by praise, though, and wasn't a personal attack).

Second, Ethan doesn't flood any thread in any true sense of the word. I can't see how someone can absolutely control what you post. You can continue to have a discussion on whatever you want.

Finally - and this relates to both of these points - if there are sufficient people on here to have a conversation about something related to audio, then it should happen. That is what an open forum is all about. Do you think we should only allow X number of posts on pro-DBT and anti-DBT in each thread? Yuck.

ethanwiner
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Quote:
it would probably be very bad for the moderators to go too far in content-based censorship. Someone has to decide what is an insult, what is un-civil, etc.


I mostly agree, but at this point Jan Vigne and Steve Stammers and The Frog have all shown that the bulk of what they have to offer is personal insults and attacks. Not only against me, but against anyone who disagrees with their particular brand of Kool-aid. I happen to think this forum would be better off with more moderation in that regard. They banned DUP and all he ever attacked were BS products and pseudo-science. DUP never attacked people except once in a while in his own defense. Same for me. I'll take a shot once in a while, but only in defense after extremely aggressive personal attacks. Look at all the insults SAS throws at me, then he has the gall to say I'm the one that has only personal attacks. Amazing, no?

--Ethan

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RGibran
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Re: Synergistics Research Acoustic ART-real sonic improvements?

What we fail to understand is that if you say "Snake Oil" we have personally insulted these folks!

RG

Buddha
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Seriously, we really need to discuss the PinneaEZ!

Only 399.99 for 16 clothes pins!

Is there doubt about the "art" aspect of this site's products?

ethanwiner
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Quote:
What we fail to understand is that if you say "Snake Oil" we have personally insulted these folks!


Understood. I read a great Mark Twain quote today:

"How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again."

--Ethan

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