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TinyTim
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Something to get off my chest

/The post below is all my personal humble opinion/

Hello :-)

I have something on my chest that i would like to get rid off. First of all, i am a huge fan of planar speakers and have had many myself. But Apogees are my absolute fav. and have restored, tuned and tweaked them. They were much ahead of their time, and with today technologys like digital room correction, better crossover parts, better digital active crossovers, new and better ribbons (THANK YOU GRAZ in Australia and Perigee Acoustics)

I am upset to read this "advert for A-Sys Audio in Germany"

"Die Verwendung hochwertigster und modernster Komponenten und Materialien wie z.B. KAPTONR bildet die Basis dieses Erfolges."

Rough Translation from me : The use of most modern components and materials, for example KAPTON build the basis for the success.

ARE THEY KIDDING? Apogee used Kapton backed and pure ribbons back when they started in 1982! Thats 24 YEARS!!!
What the heck is NEW about that?

And now after the patent runs out, i see Apogee clones popping up all over the place claiming NEW technology which just happens to be darn close to Apogee. Magnepan uses ribbons, but only for the tweeter. In the 3.6 they use thick, fat mylar film and for the 20.1 they try to get closer to a ribbon by using its quassi midrange. Thats all good and all, but doesnt touch the Apogees in any place. Not to mention bass power and slam. But this isnt about Maggies (which i love dearly as my sec fav..)

Those NEW stating companys should pay a tribute to the original leaders in ribbon speaker technology. And stop using the words "new technology" by using freaking Kapton. Dont make them look like an Apogee and use old Magnets, and get the same inefficency. And how about build quality? The largest A-Sys speaker is lighter then one section of the FR from Apogee and is a bit heavier then a Duetta and lighter then a DIVA.

Then we have different materials for the bass and midrange which cant give you coherency...

Needless to say, Apogee forever in my book and ONLY Perigee Acoustics who has saved us all by making Apogee ribbons, gives the best support should be allowed to carry on the legacy of Apogee Acoustics!

Thanks to all for readings this..

-Flo

Puh...that felt good.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Something to get off my chest

Hi Flo!
On your soapbox again I see. Recite after me.
Planars forever, planers forever
Never a box, to hamper my sound!

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
Hi Flo!
On your soapbox again I see. Recite after me.
Planars forever, planers forever
Never a box, to hamper my sound!

My post has absolutly NOTHING to do with box speakers. I dont see how you got that.

Windzilla
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Re: Something to get off my chest

hey Flo, I too love planar speakers. they are what woke me up to hi-fi. I don't have a pair (yet) but can fully appreciate your passion.

My hope is that the thin screen transformation in home video will result in the integration of more planar technologies into consumer accessible products. To some degree this has already happened. For example monsoon made some really neat little planar computer speakers, IMHO they blew any and everything in there price range away. Unfortunately as the technology finds its way into the main stream, marketing departments are certain to hype their products with total disregard for historical accuracy. I'm willing to accept this and embrace any technology that gets people listening to music, rather than just hearing it, something planers did for me.

as for Joe's comments, I understand where he draws the box speaker comment from. Your stated preference for apogee and magnepan, while not an explicit statement, implicitly leads one to believe box speakers technology is somehow lacking compared to planars.

Cheers

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest

Dear Windzilla,

thanks for your comments. Affordable box speakers are not my thing sound wise, but then again i only posted this because i think it is wrong from new emerging companys labeling a product which is based on Apogee Acoustics (in this case) as NEW when it is obviously touched up. This post has NOTHING to do with boxes, absolutly nothing.

Cheers
-Flo

TheOverboard
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Re: Something to get off my chest

First let me say: I own 'em; love 'em; never heard a box equal them.

Unless I'm wrong, and I'm never wrong (Princess Bride), I seem to remember the Apogee ribbon was a rip off of someone else's and they were sued (and lost the court case), which was the beginning of the end for Apogee. I also seem to remember it was Magnepan that won. Why can't we all just get along?

JoeE SP9
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Re: Something to get off my chest

Lighten up Flo. It is I JoeESP9. Just yankin' your chain a little. When I registered here they dropped the SP9. I guess they thought I was advertising.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Something to get off my chest

I've already responded to Florian's comments. He and I are sort of kindred spirits in our feelings about planar speakers. We have actually spoken on the phone. My current gear is listed below.

ARC SP9 MKII preamp
VPI HW19jr
Rega RB300
Marcof PPA1 head amp
Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon cartridges
Marantz CD63SE CD
MSB DtoA
Sony DVP-NS500V
Accuphase T101 tuner
Nakamichi LX-3, ZX-7 Cassette
Lexicon CP1
2 modified Hafler DH200
2 radically modified Dynaco MK3's
1 Adcom GFA545
2 Paradigm xovers
2 12" Subs
1pr Acoustat Spectra 2200 ESL's (fronts)
1pr Acoustat Model 1 ESL's (rears)
The woofer cabinet from the Spectras' is connected with the Model 1's for my rears

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
First let me say: I own 'em; love 'em; never heard a box equal them.

Unless I'm wrong, and I'm never wrong (Princess Bride), I seem to remember the Apogee ribbon was a rip off of someone else's and they were sued (and lost the court case), which was the beginning of the end for Apogee. I also seem to remember it was Magnepan that won. Why can't we all just get along?

That is actually untrue. Apogee closed down because of the closure of a third party company that supplied Apogee with material for making the ribbons. What makes Apogees great is the bass membrane design (that Magnepan couldnt use because of the patented design), the midrange ribbon (that Magnepan doesnt use) etc....

This is not about getting along, boxes or other things. I am simply saying that Apogee was and is ahead of its time, even today (when restored) and its a shame that compays can advertise the technology/parts used as NEW, that was developed by Leo Spiegel over 24 years ago!

-Flo

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest

Oh man Joe, i tottaly didnt get that it was you. LOL.....

JoeE SP9
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Re: Something to get off my chest

When I saw your first response I really did laugh out loud.

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
When I saw your first response I really did laugh out loud.

Thats because everyime i say something about planars, someone comes in and starts with boxes. And i am like "gee, cant these boxy things just leave me alone!"

;-) Anyway, how do you feel if a new company comes out with a 20 year old Acoustat Servo Charge amp and lables it "NEW" technology. LOL

Monty
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Re: Something to get off my chest

China has perfected swiping technology and reinventing products to send back over here. And, I don't think they have even got their feet wet, yet. They look at what is selling over here, buy a sample, take it apart, retool and start producing a similar product for their Western distributors at a fraction of the cost.

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
China has perfected swiping technology and reinventing products to send back over here. And, I don't think they have even got their feet wet, yet. They look at what is selling over here, buy a sample, take it apart, retool and start producing a similar product for their Western distributors at a fraction of the cost.

Yeah, that really sucks. Same with our Magnetic Train from Germany. I dont mind a reincarnation of Apogee, but Perigee Acoustics pays a large mental tribute to Apogee Acoustics. These new companys, simply label old news as NEW technology without paying a tribute to them. Sucks in my opinion :-)

JoeE SP9
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Re: Something to get off my chest

I say pi*s on them if that's what they do. A long time ago in a thread far far away I admitted at one time I would have given up a testicle for a pair of Grands. Got any?

Buddha
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Re: Something to get off my chest

Well, let's see...

Fellow Apogee lover here, planars in general. But this "copying sucks" stuff, no can do.

Where did making great speakers get Apogee? Scrap heap of Hi Fi history.

You want nobody should be able to build on what Apogee did? I figure every product owes something to the past, and if anybody can copy Apogee and come up with the goods, more power to them!

If we base what is allowed on who did it sooner, then right now, only Yamaha would be allowed to make Berylium tweeters and who knows who would own the concept of planar speakers, in general.

Sequerra was there in the 70's, and the concept even goes back to the 20's.

I agree Apogee did it best (MBL these days) but I'd rather applaud new companies making them instead of getting all "ol' fogey" about it!

Forgive their hyperbole about "new breakthroughs" and such and let your ears decide if they've accomplished their goals.

Then share what you hear!

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
I say pi*s on them if that's what they do. A long time ago in a thread far far away I admitted at one time I would have given up a testicle for a pair of Grands. Got any?

Actually, this is bad news for you. I know where one is for sale, and i was considering it about 2 month ago. :-)

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
Well, let's see...

Where did making great speakers get Apogee? Scrap heap of Hi Fi history.

They are only history in production, but are still build by Perigee Acoustics and can all be rebuild. You can buy Apogees, new :-)


Quote:

You want nobody should be able to build on what Apogee did?

No, i encourage Perigee Acoustics, which is very open and pays their thanks and admits that they are Apogees just build more modern and take the Apogee level of performance as a base.


Quote:

I figure every product owes something to the past, and if anybody can copy Apogee and come up with the goods, more power to them!

The unique bass panel, pure ribbon midrange and the use of ribbons for every single range was their toy and their design :-)


Quote:

If we base what is allowed on who did it sooner, then right now, only Yamaha would be allowed to make Berylium tweeters and who knows who would own the concept of planar speakers, in general.

True, and i believe that JMLab should at least say that their speakers where inspired by the early Yamaha design, same as i believe that Audio Note UK should admit that they basically use Snell designs.


Quote:

I agree Apogee did it best (MBL these days) but I'd rather applaud new companies making them instead of getting all "ol' fogey" about it!

Well, i like MBL too, but Apogees are quite different and i personally prefer Apogees to MBL but they are VERY good and consider this to be a choice of taste. MBL and Apogee are VERY different, not only technologically but also sonically. They will capture my main interest when they make a 360degree ribbon subwoofer....


Quote:

Forgive their hyperbole about "new breakthroughs" and such and let your ears decide if they've accomplished their goals.

Then share what you hear!

Well i heard the MBL's, A-Sys and others and like them all in their own way. But it still upsets me that they advertise this as new, and cheap out on many things like the bass membrane, different driver materials etc... and dont even admit that their speaker technology was inspired by Apogee and as luck has it, was released after the Apogee patent ran out.

-Flo

Buddha
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Re: Something to get off my chest

Thanks for the reply, Flo!

I hear ya, if they can get a 360 degree MBL woofer ribbon to complete the chain, THAT would be something!

*Probably 300 kilodollars, too!

I agree with you about Graz. I read the Apogee site and he's the best thing to happen to Apogee since Apogee!

He really seems to care and wants to expand ribbon horizons.

If I hit the Lotto, I think the first speaker I'd buy would be his Definitive speaker!

Welcome to this site, by the way!

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
Thanks for the reply, Flo!


Well sure :-)


Quote:

I hear ya, if they can get a 360 degree MBL woofer ribbon to complete the chain, THAT would be something!

Yup, and i would be inline for that baby! But, after having lived with Apogees for a while, there is no other option out there that i would consider exept for Soundlab or Acoustat. But thats just my taste ;-)


Quote:

*Probably 300 kilodollars, too!

Propably more LOL


Quote:

I agree with you about Graz. I read the Apogee site and he's the best thing to happen to Apogee since Apogee!

He really seems to care and wants to expand ribbon horizons.

Very true, and has the best support. My DIVAS are rebuild and use his ribbons, not to mention my new crossover, stability improvement and room correction (well the fr responce anyways)


Quote:

If I hit the Lotto, I think the first speaker I'd buy would be his Definitive speaker!

Mine too.....


Quote:

Welcome to this site, by the way!

Thank you!

JoeE SP9
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Re: Something to get off my chest

Don't tempt me, please. Certain of my body parts are trying to retract. I have heard a pair of Grands and my body remembers how much my ears, heart and mind were mesmerized.

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
Don't tempt me, please. Certain of my body parts are trying to retract. I have heard a pair of Grands and my body remembers how much my ears, heart and mind were mesmerized.

I was really considering buying it. The problem lies in its 1200lbs weight, build in Krell amps and the Fully remote controllable digital active crossover. I am still bitten by the thought tough. Maybe I'll buy it, but most likely wont. LOL

Costin
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:

Quote:
I say pi*s on them if that's what they do. A long time ago in a thread far far away I admitted at one time I would have given up a testicle for a pair of Grands. Got any?

Actually, this is bad news for you. I know where one is for sale, and i was considering it about 2 month ago. :-)

Do the above refer to Apogees or testicles?

Buddha
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Re: Something to get off my chest

I think if a pair crossed my path, I'd have to find a way to get 'er done.

You should go for it!

DanS
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Re: Something to get off my chest

These are the speakers that turned me onto high-end audio reproduction:

Ambience Ultra 1400 - Made in Australia

Specifications:

Ribbon Section:
1400mm Crimped Metal Type
Impedance:
4.27 ohms 150Hz - 5KHz
5.38 ohms @ 7Khz
5.30 ohms @ 10Khz
5.00 ohms @ 15KHz
4.75 ohms @ 25 KHz

Bass Section:
170mm Seas woofer custom made
Doped paper cone type
Long throw voice coil
Power handling: 100W RMS (long term)
Free air resonance: 24Hz
Vented box F3: 29Hz

Overall Specifications:
Nominal Impedance: 4.9 ohms
Sensitivity 89dB at 1M for 2.83 volts input
Power handling: 150W RMS (long term)
Crossover 420Hz @ 18dB/Octave or 830Hz @ 12dB/Octave
Tested at 500W RMS (short term)
Minimum recomended amplifier power: 30 watts RMS / channel
Yielding 114dB sound pressure level
Ideal amplifier power 100 to 150 watts RMS / channel

Their sound is detailed, very quick and tonally accurate, with impeccable sonic imaging.
I highly recommend the Ambience hybrid speakers to anyone interested in planar speaker technologies/acoustics.

eagle
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:

Quote:
First let me say: I own 'em; love 'em; never heard a box equal them.

Unless I'm wrong, and I'm never wrong (Princess Bride), I seem to remember the Apogee ribbon was a rip off of someone else's and they were sued (and lost the court case), which was the beginning of the end for Apogee. I also seem to remember it was Magnepan that won. Why can't we all just get along?

That is actually untrue. Apogee closed down because of the closure of a third party company that supplied Apogee with material for making the ribbons. What makes Apogees great is the bass membrane design (that Magnepan couldnt use because of the patented design), the midrange ribbon (that Magnepan doesnt use) etc....

This is not about getting along, boxes or other things. I am simply saying that Apogee was and is ahead of its time, even today (when restored) and its a shame that compays can advertise the technology/parts used as NEW, that was developed by Leo Spiegel over 24 years ago!

-Flo

I loved the Apogee speakers, but they were gone before I could afford them. I have Maggies now and love them.

I had a tour of the Maggie factory in 1993 or 4 and saw a pair of disassembles Apogees there. I asked why they had them. I seem to rememeber being told that the law suit was over the planar part, not the ribbon. I could be wrong.

What REALLY got me going on hifi, though, was the Rogers LS3/5A. I've never heard a speaker image like that before or since. I really believe a blind person would have thought 4 men were in the room singing. And I didn't have to be in the sweet spot.

Editor
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
I seem to remember being told that the law suit was over the planar part, not the ribbon. I could be wrong.

The suit, which Magnepan won, was over the patented design of the Apogee's treble ribbon, which was held to infringe the patent. Apogee subsequently had to pay Magnepan a royalty per speaker sold.


Quote:
What REALLY got me going on hifi, though, was the Rogers LS3/5A. I've never heard a speaker image like that before or since.

I have always been a big fan of the LS3/5a, and have just received a pair of the new, Stirling-manufactured version for review, most probably in the December 2006 issue.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:

The suit, which Magnepan won, was over the patented design of the Apogee's treble ribbon, which was held to infringe the patent. Apogee subsequently had to pay Magnepan a royalty per speaker sold.

Interesting! The tweeter ribbons used in the FR, DIVA, Scintilla, Grand are very different from the Maggie ribbon. The Maggie ribbon is held in dozens of places and doesnt swing freely like in the Apogees. I wonder why they won?

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
I think if a pair crossed my path, I'd have to find a way to get 'er done.

You should go for it!

I know, but i just finished my puppys. New crossovers, room treatments, EeQ etc... I cant let go of these babys....and they have all new ribbons too.

Editor
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:
The tweeter ribbons used in the FR, DIVA, Scintilla, Grand are very different from the Maggie ribbon. The Maggie ribbon is held in dozens of places and doesnt swing freely like in the Apogees. I wonder why they won?

Because the suit concerned the ribbon tweeter used in the Duetta, Caliper, Stage, and the hybrid speakers, which was clamped along its length like the Magnepan tweeter.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

TinyTim
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Re: Something to get off my chest


Quote:

Because the suit concerned the ribbon tweeter used in the Duetta, Caliper, Stage, and the hybrid speakers, which was clamped along its length like the Magnepan tweeter.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

This is interesting, because i have Duettas and Calipers (which dont have ribbon tweeters, but have midrange/tweeter units) here also and none are clamped along the side. Those drivers are the same as in my midrange for my DIVA, so the suit should have been over all models. The Grand Series uses double sided kaptopn which is an exclusive and after the Maggie Suit. Where did you get that information, if you dont mind me asking?

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