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CECE
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Non magical cables/wires
Jan Vigne
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

#20 Speaker Cable: High Definition

Gee, I wonder how they do that. All cable is "High Definition" if the guage is thick enough; isn't it, DUP? I wonder why they don't sell some "Not Quite as High, High Definition Cables" for a bit less money. These folks need a marketing manager.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

The 12ga clear/braided stuff is just like SoundKing from Parts Express, coming off the master roll. The stuff is the same for all teh other wire, like Crol,Belden,General Cable, but since this is not "audiophile" branded, they have specs, and things that mean something, not verbage and nonsenical NEW BREAKTHROUHS. And you do read how each insulation type is for certain uses, harsh, wet, flex, in wall...unlike "audiophile" magic wires advertised in nice glossy full page ads, with zen and zing, and all kinds of glorious colors of a snake skin. There is no sound in wire, but there is electrical parameters to meet a certain use, and enviorments.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires


Quote:
There is no sound in wire, but there is electrical parameters to meet a certain use, and enviorments

Then what parameters qualify a cable to be "High Definition" and what parameters qualify a cable to be "Not Quite So High of a Definition"? Read the page "cabling technologies for high definition analog audio interconnects" or their opening page to their digital interconnects. Obviously these people think there are ways to make a cable sound better than average. Otherwise, they wouldn't bill their cable as "high definition", they'd all be "low loss" like their cheaper cables are advertised. That seems to shoot down your idea there is no sound in cables. Even the company you recommend suggests different cables can "sound" different.

If you don't like colors, don't look at page 16.


Quote:
And you do read how each insulation type is for certain uses, harsh, wet, flex, in wall ...

Yes, I see that. I have to adnit, I don't remember an audiophile cable that suggests it is meant for a "wet" enviroment. But that has nothing to do with how the cable "sounds". Is the "wet" cable still a "high definition" cable? Does it become less "high definition" as the "wetness" increases? Given what it takes to make a cable for burial or plenum runs, don't you think your argument here is a bit simplistic? Don't you think any audiophile company could sell a cable meant for burial, if they chose to? This is not convincing me of anything, DUP.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

The point was, their "high definition" doesn't mention magic twists and turns and and "breakthrough" of the week cable magic. Just some basic cable geometrys for a particular electical paramter needed. you can be sure their 75Ohm cable soudn sliek any other 75Ohm piece of wire with the proper terminations. Don't see any bias voltage cable shere either, so you are right, just how can it be "high definition" or what ever term marketing wants to apply to wire. Wire is designed to a certain use, electrial spec, wire has no sound, nor "definition" Maybe you better find some audio grade "high defintion" NM wire to wire the wall outlets. Radio Shack even applys that term to their stuff, it means NOTHING actually. take 2 75 ohm cables, you ain't gonna hear any difference when used in it's enviorment it was meant for, and for home audio, it's a pretty safe non harsh enviorment. and you certainly ain't gonna hear teh insulation. Whether it's 72V magic or the lesser 36V..or ZERO volts. How come Belden or General cable have had a bias voltage breakthrough? Only AQ, the magic is very selective ain't it?

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Re: Non magical cables/wires


Quote:
http://www.gepco.com/PDF_files/Gepco_G9_Catalog.pdf

These folks have a good cable selection, DUP. I have used various types of cables shown here in both audio and video recording studios. Nothing "magic" about the stuff - you just have to use the correct cable for the application.

A friend was telling me that I needed to buy some of that "magic" speaker cable instead of using zip cord. So we swapped cables. Made no difference in either sound system. I guess our equipment isn't high-end enough to notice the difference in cables.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires


Quote:
Then what parameters qualify a cable to be "High Definition" and what parameters qualify a cable to be "Not Quite So High of a Definition"? Read the page "cabling technologies for high definition analog audio interconnects" or their opening page to their digital interconnects. Obviously these people think there are ways to make a cable sound better than average. Otherwise, they wouldn't bill their cable as "high definition", they'd all be "low loss" like their cheaper cables are advertised. That seems to shoot down your idea there is no sound in cables. Even the company you recommend suggests different cables can "sound" different.

Maybe it all has to do with the "purity" of the cable. I would think that a cable made of high grade copper would conduct better than cable made of recycled aluminum cans. (An extreme example, I know.)


Quote:
...I don't remember an audiophile cable that suggests it is meant for a "wet" enviroment.

A "wet environment", I would think, refers to a stadium or some other application that is exposed to the weather.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

And if you read teh specs..any "loss" is at what freq? There is a reason wire is made to be used in it's proper application. What loss is happening to a speaker wire at audio freqs? Proper guage, for the length required, for proper power delivery, mostly large enough guage, not magic inuslation twists and turns with the proper insualtion for the installed enviorment. There are outdoor and other enviorments for audio and video other than your living room. Live events require some pretty robust cable to lay out across a field where it's walked on, moved constatnly for each new event, i don't think some AQ magic wire will ever hold up. Besides, i hae yet to see any meaningful specs on most magic wire makers, Kimber, Cardas, AQ, Zen,Harmonix,any other magic mix, mostly all marketing BS nonsense. Let's see an pro install pass inspection when teh wire has none of teh porper classifications and listings from a UL or ETL test. Red tag it, pull it out. Snake skin colors and wrap of teh month don't work, in reality based insatallations. Nuetrik and Switchcraft connectors, not some magic blended nonsense without any industry certifications as to v0oltage and enviromental specs.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Here's a godsend for the "magic" cable folks - www.usedcable.com

This place carries "silver/gold"...that will improve the sound of one's audio & video - www.fatwyre.com

tandy
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

"Let's see an pro install pass inspection when teh wire has none of teh porper classifications and listings from a UL or ETL"

Can you name one brand of insulated speaker wire that would not handle 20-50 volts in the home?
Does it have to be UL listed to be magically safe?
Can you name one instance that insulated speaker wire caused a fire, or harm, when used for its intended purpose?
(DUP, you resorting to scare tatics now?)

DUP, you read any college text books I have suggested, and chemistry articles, pertaining to how wire and insulation works? If so, list them. (I see DUP has avoided answering this question several times.)

Are you relying only on basic marketing catalogs for your information?

One of the major problems in audio is that of getting good quality recordings. The lack of good recording equipment, wire, and speakers etc are a major bottleneck in the chain. Luckily there are a few studios that take music seriously.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires


Quote:
And if you read teh specs..any "loss" is at what freq?

Exactly, DUP. What if the losses are non-linear? Nothing states that the loss will be evenly distributed across all frequencies. Merely, as with most audio equipment, that the cable will have no more than "X" dB of loss at a stated frequency. But, it will have loss - as in low loss cables. They're not high definition, just low loss. And, therefore, "high definition" cables are intended so sound better than "low loss" cables. Your referenced cable companies make cables that sound different. There's no getting around it, they all think cables can sound different. And most folks who pay the extra money for a Belden or Canare cable do so thinking it is a better cable than a West Penn. Stop fooling yourself, DUP.


Quote:
Proper guage .. for the installed enviorment. There are outdoor and other enviorments for audio and video other than your living room.


Quote:
Live events require some pretty robust cable to lay out across a field where it's walked on, moved constatnly for each new event, i don't think some AQ magic wire will ever hold up.

Aw, jeez-louise, DUP. What the hell are you arguing now? Do you really, really, think anyone in their right mind would use AudioQuest or Monster cable to wire a State Fair?


Quote:
Besides, i hae yet to see any meaningful specs on most magic wire makers, Kimber, Cardas, AQ, Zen,Harmonix,

Probably because you haven't looked for them. Most cable manufacturers state their basic specs as do Belden and Canare. That you haven't looked doesn't make any difference to me.

And here's the whooper of the day;


Quote:
Let's see an pro install pass inspection when teh wire has none of teh porper classifications and listings from a UL or ETL test.

DUP, who exactly are you trying to prove the fool; you or me? You should know studio's do not have to use UL approved interconnect and speaker cables within the studio. No interconnect or speaker cable within the studio proper must be UL approved unless it is installed where a fire hazard might exist. Low voltage cable that isn't run in a plenum or wall, or buried in soil doesn't need to be UL approved. The studio is free to use whatever interconnects they wish. Even the cheapo, throw away kind if they're that dumb. If that code has changed, you better tell the studios that use audiophile cables to Red Tag their installations. You can begin with Telarc, Wilson, Chesky, Reference and Kimber. Oh wait their installations didn't get Red Tagged; did they?

DUP, I am not inclined to debate this matter with someone who can't argue a piont succintly and logically. No one has made the claim for AudioQuest cables that they can be used to wire a football stadium and have 50,000 people step on them. But, actually, I would rather have a Teflon dielectric for that application than a lowly PVC. You are so far only arguing that the audiophile cables shouldn't be used in unintended applications. That's true, you wouldn't use a Monster Cable interconnect as a burial cable for video. And you wouldn't use a Belden cable meant for plenum runs as a snake for a stadium show. Where a cable can be installed doesn't have anything to do with how a cable "sounds".

You are only arguing how the cable can be used and you are not doing a good job of that because you are attempting to obfuscate the facts. You haven't given any conclusive proof that any cable isn't going to sound better than another. You've only implied that some cables have a UL listing in order to allow them to be used in a specifc and different location than, say, a Cardas interconnect. No one would dispute your, uh ... logic in that respect. If you want to actually debate something that is worth my time, then do it. Otherwise, you've just proven again that you just don't get it.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Not "magically" safe but mfg'd to a specific STANDARD and tested to it.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Low voltage wiring gets UL listings, tests, qualifications. Insulation types tested for smoke, fire spread etc. In places of assy, Pa systems sound systems, UL listed, studios, check with the insurance companies see what they demand in order to write a policy, on some place with mega bucks in equipment that can be lost. UL listed wire for low voltage meets other specs besides voltage etc. Like i said, fire spread, smoke, etc Even the acoustic treatments better be UL listed, recall that nightmare up in Rhode Island club, hundreds died, improper foam, used to soundproof the joint, UL listed acoustic treatments limit smoke, flame spread fire resistance etc...Ame for low voltage insulations as well as line cord insulations.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

I don't know where you install systems, but when I've done studios here in Texas, there are no UL specs for the interconnects or speaker cables within the studio proper.

None the less, your argument is that these Gepco cables are UL listed for specific applications and AudioQuest isn't. And, you're correct.

And your point is ... ?

AudioQuest has entered a different portion of the market that doesn't require UL listings and wouldn't make any difference in the performance of the cable even if they had UL listing. That has nothing to do with how West Penn sounds and has nothing in common with AudioQuest's choice of energized dielectric. To compare the two is like comparing apples to house boats.

How about this analogy, DUP. I won't buy a Ford Focus because it's not government rated to treat my dog's fleas. Makes as much, if not more, sense that what you're promoting on this thread.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires


Quote:
Not "magically" safe but mfg'd to a specific STANDARD and tested to it.

So if one isn't listed with UL, it can not be mfg'd to a specific standard? Get real.

And who decides the standard?

With your logic, one could say house wiring isn't safe, the cause of many many many more fires than audio cable causes, AND IT IS UL listed. Maybe they should add another inch of outer wrapping for safer operation.

If you are so concerned, why don't you argue with the powers that be for a higher standard in house wiring?? You could actually become productive and save lives! Makes alot more sense than what you are trying to accomplish here. That is if you are truly concerned with safety.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Who sets the standards, UL, and teh entire industry, colaborate on the stuff. ETL CSA IEC,DIN and dozens more. Actually since most stuff needs to be made idiot resistant, the new NEC requirments will mandate AFCI....not just GFCI Arc Fault Circuit Interupters will sense the tiny arc going on in those 18ga SPT lamp cords in bedrooms and other places, where they get snagged and crimped behind furniture, over teh years teh insulation gets damaged and tiny arcs that doesn't draw enough current to trip teh usual 15A breaker, but DOES eventually caue fires. Yes, they are ALWAYS improving on the stuff, UL matters, as does dozens of other standards setting orgs. If not for such opearations, your entire residence would be like back in the early 1800's...ready to burn. UL has been instrumental in making lotsa stuff safer and better. So hs ETL and many others. Of course it's not 100% fail safe, no such thing, but soem of this audiophile tweaks and BS are downright insane when it comes to electrical safety and making it sound better. Do you know why fuses from legit mfgs are UL listed, why they have voltage listings and specs? If you where to use a 32V rated fuse in your 120V ckt, the possiblity exists the fuse will arc over and complete teh ckt and not open like a fuse should. That's why things gets speced for proper applications. Where some audio nuts dream up nonsense tweaks, that defy logic and safety. those super thin AC cords from one, one company sells a line cord where you can disable the 3rd prong GROUND!!!! soem of the stuff is incredibly DUMB. Soem take low voltage rated wire, turn it into a line cord, I've even read in forums(not this one) where nudnicks are using CAT 5 data wire, lumped together and making "audiophile" better sounding line cords!!! Friggin' RETARDS!! No matter how many UL ETL and toher standdrds are developed over the years, idiots will always find a way to circumvent them. That's why there are fire trucks and hospitals. Ever read about in some low rent apts some nitiwt runs 18ga zip cord in his walls, and pulgs in numerous devices, as the wire burns so does the entire complex, especially at Christmas time, TARDS over load small ext cords, up in smoke, can't make it perfect, idiots always find a way to beat the system.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

"Do you know why fuses from legit mfgs are UL listed, why they have voltage listings and specs? If you where to use a 32V rated fuse in your 120V ckt, the possiblity exists the fuse will arc over and complete teh ckt and not open like a fuse should. That's why things gets speced for proper applications."

No Kidding? Wow, And only you knew this?

You are all over the place. First, it was the magic twists and wire has no sound, then use outside, then to live outdoor mega events, now it is using audio wire for AC line wiring.

Here is your third post on the first page.

"The point was, their "high definition" doesn't mention magic twists and turns and and "breakthrough" of the week cable magic. Just some basic cable geometrys for a particular electical paramter needed. you can be sure their 75Ohm cable soudn sliek any other 75Ohm piece of wire with the proper terminations. Don't see any bias voltage cable shere either, so you are right, just how can it be "high definition" or what ever term marketing wants to apply to wire. Wire is designed to a certain use, electrial spec, wire has no sound, nor "definition" Maybe you better find some audio grade "high defintion" NM wire to wire the wall outlets. Radio Shack even applys that term to their stuff, it means NOTHING actually. take 2 75 ohm cables, you ain't gonna hear any difference when used in it's enviorment it was meant for, and for home audio, it's a pretty safe non harsh enviorment. and you certainly ain't gonna hear teh insulation. Whether it's 72V magic or the lesser 36V..or ZERO volts. How come Belden or General cable have had a bias voltage breakthrough? Only AQ, the magic is very selective ain't it?"

Actually no. First, good wire is manufactured differently, 6N pure, some with many more strands etc. Secondly, the insulation is different. Some use teflon or polypropylene etc with a lower time constant for relaxation of the field induced dipole (might try studying some chemistry and physics).

Now a portion of your 4th post.

"Live events require some pretty robust cable to lay out across a field where it's walked on, moved constatnly for each new event, i don't think some AQ magic wire will ever hold up. Besides, i hae yet to see any meaningful specs on most magic wire makers, Kimber, Cardas, AQ, Zen,Harmonix,any other magic mix, mostly all marketing BS nonsense. Let's see an pro install pass inspection when teh wire has none of teh porper classifications and listings from a UL or ETL test. Red tag it, pull it out. Snake skin colors and wrap of teh month don't work, in reality based insatallations. Nuetrik and Switchcraft connectors, not some magic blended nonsense without any industry certifications as to v0oltage and enviromental specs."

Now you have evolved to live outdoor mega events.

Again, how many fires and injuries have you heard of using hi end insulated audio cable, in audio use?

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

If UL listings and certs and standards doesn't matter, WHY does teh large mfgs like General Cable, Rome, Carol, Southwire, Belden get UL listings on their low voltage wires? Run some non UL wire in teh walls, for some house installation, get the local inspector to checkout the work, make sure you let him know it's non UL listed for in wall use. Even alarm wire has UL listed wire, teh wire that goes between the magnets and control unit. Why bother, why do the companies spend the big bucks to get UL number and listing if it doesn't matter. Then stock up on some Chinese swag, use it and use it. Of course all the best studios use non UL listed stuff, cus' it don't matter. They have found the magic wire does it better. Just think how much the $1,000/ft magic stuff will go for with a UL listing fee added in. Make sure your insurance company knows about non UL stuff. Tell them it works better and UL don't matter.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

DUP, I hate to keep calling you an idiot, but is your entire complaint here that AudioQuest cables are not UL listed?

CECE
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

No.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Then what does all this about UL listings have to do with anything? Really, DUP, try to stay on topic.

tandy
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Please do not go off the deep end. I guess we are talking recording studios now? We aren't talking doorbell systems or house wiring. We are talking signal wire, ICs, speaker cable.

Nobody said UL doesn't matter. You are way off the deep end.

"They have found the magic wire does it better."

I notice you still call hi end wire "magic wire".
Is there a reason you will not read the textbooks I suggested, to learn about wire and current "flow"? Chemistry and physics books/articles also help.

ps. By the way, many of the cables/ICs will surpass UL testing for specific uses. This includes teflon and other coverings.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

PTFE and any other kind of material is used in all sorts of wire insulations....UL tests each for a listed purpose. If the magic wire can pass all teh UL requirments, then why don't they get it listed, I have had responses from a few, that give me teh same line, it's better than required for UL listing. Well, that's a nice thought, in teh magic land of nonsense. If it doesn't get a UL number and UL listing, it is not UL listed, simple. So when the AHJ comes and wants to check things in an installation, and finds non UL listed materials, rip it out and change it, no amount of yeah, but it's built to the sam especs, blah blah blah. No number, no UL sticker, it's all talk. So you are saying a recording studio that is usually in a larger building, just for instance NYC, which has it's own strict electrical codes beyond NEC requirments, puts in a some non listed matierialsm, because it as good, it sounds better, it's built to the standards liek UL, and the place gets inspected, and they have to rip it all out, how happy do you think the owner is gonna be, then if something happens in some trouble like a fire, lawyers love to find fault with teh weakist link and make someone pay. I think you better give up reading books about chemistry and how it makes wires sound different and read about rel life situations, and real life wiring installations. Read the NEC instead. there is an entrie section devoted to low voltage system, electronic systems. claiming it's to UL standards, and having the sticker to prove it is, makes a big difference in the courtroom. Especially in places of assy with crowds of people. Sound systems in churches, auditoriums. How come on eof teh magic wire makers in a recent full page ad, has UL approved, claims on one of it's magic AC cords. Well that is also incorrect, since UL doesn't "approve" anything, they test and list it for a purpose. So the magic wire comapny can't even get their ad makers to know what the hell they are putting in print. And i did look up on the UL website, they do have a listed product now, one out of dozens of other magic itmes sold to sound better, and work wonders, that mere wire can't do. I love teh "audio grade" wall devices, since there is no such thing in UL or NEMA. I'm sure it sounds much better than a non audio grade wall device. My system can't resolve those details.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

You say it isn't about UL listings and then rant and rave about UL listings. This is going nowhere. DUP, you are an idiot.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

"I think you better give up reading books about chemistry and how it makes wires sound different and read about rel life situations, and real life wiring installations."

I see you are wanting to change from your initial subject matter.
So that is your excuse not to learn why wire sounds different? You have no interest in learning?

"Read the NEC instead. there is an entrie section devoted to low voltage system, electronic systems. claiming it's to UL standards, and having the sticker to prove it is, makes a big difference in the courtroom."

I will have to look it up, but I think 18 volt minimum systems is what you are talking about?

By the way, years ago I worked for a company installing UL approved 70 volt lines in schools, and the cable was, quite frankly, cheap junk, which virtually any cable could be listed, esp hi end cable.
But then the price is higher and the application would not fit. (Order some UL listed low voltage cable from the catalogs and see how cheap it is.)

Teflon would far exceed the requirements, and expensive, so not necessary for this type of installation either.

"Especially in places of assy with crowds of people. Sound systems in churches, auditoriums."

Now, suddenly, the subject switches to mid-fi/low-fi, mass crowds in these venues. Sure is a change from your first posts DUP. You are talking about a low tech venue, so why use expensive higher quality cables?

"How come on eof teh magic wire makers in a recent full page ad, has UL approved, claims on one of it's magic AC cords."

Ask them. But if the wire/cords are made by Belden and other major brands, as some claim, then the wire/cords, plugs have already been UL listed, and not required again.

"Well that is also incorrect, since UL doesn't "approve" anything, they test and list it for a purpose. So the magic wire comapny can't even get their ad makers to know what the hell they are putting in print."

See above. Here is a quote:
"UL is the trusted source across the globe for product compliance"

So compliance is required. Thus approval.

"And i did look up on the UL website, they do have a listed product now, one out of dozens of other magic itmes sold to sound better, and work wonders, that mere wire can't do. I love teh "audio grade" wall devices, since there is no such thing in UL or NEMA. I'm sure it sounds much better than a non audio grade wall device. My system can't resolve those details."

If you say so. But then their concern, training is not sound quality. That is a pretty simple concept.

You know much more than college textbooks, educators and the like. You admit not even wanting to read chemistry and physics texts and articles, and telling us to forget them. Not very scientific though, as you claim top be.

I think you would be much more qualified, as previously suggested, to work on improving house wiring quality and saving lives. Is not SAFETY the reason you switched subjects, and are now posting?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

I'm afraid DUP has no reason for posting anything. He has no logic to his arguments. He has no point to his postings. He has no "magic" to complain about. We bounce from topic to topic like a gerbil on a caffiene high. And like that gerbil, DUP's head is most often between his legs.

DUP merely wants to be right and anyone who doesn't agree with him to be wrong. I see no reason to carry on with this thread when all DUP can do is complain about a topic that he says isn't the point of this thread. He is not interested in learning, only preaching to himself. If safety were his concern, why are we discussing interconnects? Is there a safety issue with interconnects? No! What then is the point?

What we are left with are the ramblings of an incoherent, unwilling to listen to another point of view mind. He doesn't even get the fact that he has no business even suggesting how other people spend their money. He just wants to inject his opinion on everyone else's behaviour.

DUP, you brought up the Taliban in another of your infamous replies. Your attitudes here are nothing less that an audio version of the my way only tactics of a mind set that has no comprehension of facts other than its own misguided, narrow view of the world. Make a point and stick to it with comprehension or just leave the topic altogether.

tandy
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Nicely stated. Thanks Jan.

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Don't give up the fight, 301!

If you keep at it long enough, you will eventually say something that is either intelligent or at least intelligible.

You didn't quite make it this time, but better luck next time.

We are all rooting for you!

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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Jan;

You must be relatively new here to get so frustrated with DUP; most of us gave up hope that he would say anything that suggests intelligence on his planet about 500 posts ago.

Jeff Wong
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Jan's post was a month and a half ago... that probably was 500 DUP posts ago.

tandy
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Re: Non magical cables/wires

Hey Jeff. Don't forget Commsysman. His only posts did not contain one shred of info to benefit the viewers; just attacks on DUP and me.

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Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Non magical cables/wires

TAS this month, Cardas has a nice full page ad on some mystical wire...it's like all partitioned like a bee's nest. Tara has wire in a vacuum....then elseware in different ads they claim air is better. Which magic is the way to go? Cardas now looks to have some different level of magic wire. so much mystical wire science, so much BS, so much money. Did AQ stop at 72V, no breakthroughs lately?

CECE
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Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Non magical cables/wires

One mfg actually is calling their latest line MAGIC....Hey, can't i collect ad fee's, did I first call it magic wire?

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