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soundberry
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mp3 better than a cd player?

Yes
In this way:
Put it at 320 kb/s in an external usb hard disk
Connect it at an teac wap 5000 as usb toslink adapter and then to an external quality dac
I use an harmony design costing 700 euro
I use a pre harmony da9 harmony design with a valve kt 88 amplifier and a pair of audes excellence 5

You will change any bad opinion about MP3

bobedaone
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

I'd like to know what CD player you're using for comparison.

I'm sure it sounds okay, but MP3 can't touch CD in a fair fight.

dbowker
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

It's impossible unless the CD player is utter crap. MP3s still are lossy even at a high rate. Check out lossless compressions rates- try 800-1100kbs! 320 is not going to compare.

mrlowry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

I'm with Erik. The only way this is possible is if the CD player is really bad, or there is some coloration introduced by the encoding process that you like. What would happen if you encoded something in a lossless format such as apple lossless, flac, wave, aiff? Have you tried that? Playing something off a hard drive could reduce jitter for a slight improvement, but this couldn't overcome the MASSIVE lose in sound quality caused by turning it into an 320 mp3 .

RGibran
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?
dbowker
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:
JA Liked it!

RG

Yeah! I guess it WOULD sound OK played through a near $100k system! That's a lot of effort to make that file sound CD quality.

soundberry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

Yes true

Off course if you use a wav ona usb hard disk with a quality external dac you get more than any cd player
This means that a cd player looses more info than a mp3 when it read in real time the music

mrlowry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:

Quote:
JA Liked it!

RG

Yeah! I guess it WOULD sound OK played through a near $100k system! That's a lot of effort to make that file sound CD quality.

Yep, cut the price of the system in half with equipment from the same manufacturers and play a real CD. There is a really good chance that the 1/2 priced system wins out. As Ivor's Linn LP12 demonstrated many years ago, the source is the most important thing in the world. Damage done to the signal AT the source CANNOT be corrected AFTER in components downstream FROM the source!

MP3 files are for those more interested in QUANTITY rather than QUALITY. I'll take a really great Steak over a case of Sliders from White Castle any day.

dbowker
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:
Yes true

Off course if you use a wave on a sub hard disk with a quality external dac you get more than any cd player
This means that a cd player looses more info than a mp3 when it read in real time the music

Not really. I have a high quality DAC and my CD player sounds much better still. And I use loss-less compression too. There are other issues with hard drive playback that can degrade- USB is not a good transfer as it introduces a lot of jitter etc. We recently did a lot of A/B comparisons with a friend's system, and basically, loss-less is the only way to go for one, and then many other factors affect how the DAC works. Plus each DAC is different too. The main thing is, MP3s throw out musical information. Period. Can't get back what's gone.

I have no beef with digital playback or computer based playback, but MP3s are a dead issue as far as high quality sound. That being said, they all still take a back seat to my turntable!

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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


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That being said, they all still take a back seat to my turntable!

Ditto, as soon as my Black Pearl arrives! (could be today)

RGibran
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:
Yep, cut the price of the system in half with equipment from the same manufacturers and play a real CD. There is a really good chance that the 1/2 priced system wins out. As Ivor's Linn LP12 demonstrated many years ago, the source is the most important thing in the world. Damage done to the signal AT the source CANNOT be corrected AFTER in components downstream FROM the source!

Seems to me by your example, and similar statements by others, IF this damage was so atrocious it would/should easily be detected on a 100K plus system, particularly by the ah

Elk
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

My experience is that a well transcoded MP3 at 320Kb can indeed sound quite good given the right music. However, on other music the MP3 format really reveals its weaknesses, even at 320Kb.

I assume that for the demo the best possible sounding MP3s were chosen. I bet they did indeed sound good standing alone.

Yet, the original CD of each of these recordings would sound even better. I bet Mr. Atkinson would have been able to pick the lossless from the lossy if given the chance.

mrlowry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

Certainly 320 MP3s sound OK especially at background levels while having a conversation but it doesn't stand up to critical listening on even a mid-fi system. At least not to my ears. Storage is so cheap these days I'm not sure why this is even a discussion anymore.

Elk
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:
Storage is so cheap these days I'm not sure why this is even a discussion anymore.


Storage is still limited on many portable players. That and most P2P music stealing is of MP3s; people are not ripping CDs to lossless to share on-line.

mrlowry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

While storage on portables can be limiting it's easy enough to move things onto and off of portables to give variety. As for the quality of downloads I wish the major on-line services, such as iTunes would embrace lossless. As for illegal downloads I could care less what goes on there, quality wise.

Elk
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

No argument here. However, it's just easy to understand the proliferation and popularity of MP3's.

soundberry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

When MP3(320kb/s) give you colors alterations is due at use it on a cd/dvd player or with a low quality dac or off course low quality record.

Cd quality today is not dependend by the cost but only of the project quality

You find out 50 euro players sounding better than 500 euro players.

And now a 250 euro usb adapter and 600 euro dac sounding better than any cd player.

BUT it's strongly depend of the usb interface quality and the electrical/optical digital interface to the dac.

Often the dac quality is limited by the optical/electrical interface output also in many cd players.

So I got this fantastic result only using the teac wap 5000 as usb-optical adapter and a harmony design dac.

NOT before using the same dac with various cd players.

Elk
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:
When MP3(320kb/s) give you colors alterations is due at use it on a cd/dvd player or with a low quality dac or off course low quality record.


Incorrect. A 320kbs MP3 is missing the data which would allow it to sound as good as a CD of the same recording.

Of course, a bad DAC will make an MP3 sound even worse.

mrlowry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

Especially using optical. Optical sucks.

Elk
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

At least cheaply implemented optical.

As well-designed optical works wonders in telecommunications and other high--band width applications I have always wondered how optical would do if better implemented in audio equipment.

mrlowry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

Elk-

There was another optical digital interface that's not seen much today called ST-type optical. It it was developed by AT&T for the telecommunications industry and used glass instead of plastic in most cables. That was supposed to be much better than toslink, some even felt it better than coaxial. Toslink's bandwidth is about 6MHz, whereas ST-type is between 50MHz and 150 MHz. Completely off topic but I thought you might find it interesting.

Elk
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

I remember these. For example, the Genesis Digital Lens had both an ST-Type input and output.

Are not these still used in telecommunications and at least some data networks?

soundberry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

And I'm telling you that if an MP3 is not enthusiasming you there are only 2 reasons,one or both:

-A bad recording
-A not enought good DAC

dbowker
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:
And I'm telling you that if an MP3 is not enthusiasming you there are only 2 reasons,one or both:

-A bad recording
-A not enough good DAC

And... one last reason: it's been degraded BECAUSE it's an MP3! It never was made for high fidelity sound reproduction- it's the lossy audio portion of MPEG video and DVDs. With Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs they are doing away with MP3 audio and moving back to lossless or uncompressed sound streams. The best DAC around can't get data where there is none. An MP3, even at 320kbs is serving up FAR less data than a CD or lossless file. That was the whole point really- make it small for dial up modems and slow Internet speeds (among other things).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mp3

bobedaone
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

Or, you know, the fact that it's MISSING musical information.

smejias
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?


Quote:
MP3
MP3 is NOT suitable for highest soundreproduction and highend applications. Even at lowest compression rates where just 10% of storing space (compared to the original WAV file) is saved, results in smaller sound stages with less depth. Here are room- and transientinformations left out during compression/reduction losses.

I wonder if you'll find this interesting, soundberry. I found it on the same AQVOX page you cited in another thread.

soundberry
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

YES that's true that cd player may sound badder than MP3.

scottgardner
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Re: mp3 better than a cd player?

This seems like a ridiculous comparison to me. Sort of like comparing the cake to the oven it was baked in.

The real question is whether an mp3 can/does sound identical to a wav file. In ONLY one case an mp3 is identical to a wav file: silence. They are identical because nothing more can be removed via the mp3 compression algorithm. In EVERY other case the mp3 file will lack the necessary information to fully reproduce the original wav.

If you can

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