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CECE
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MF more of teh same

Again he has fabulous TT's ...he thinks at $24,000 it will be a hard sell!!!! At $100K...it's just what? and of course, his mention of teh continuum, in a fleeting glance, "interesting" said nothing. Maybe his overpriced $24K unit sounded like his OK priced TT? at $100K, or did he find he didn't hear any differences, and started to weep over his just cleaned LP's.............And if he takes up the request by Randi, he could pay off the "in hock" for that $100K TT...which he described as going into in a previous edition.

Jan Vigne
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Re: MF more of teh same

HUH?!

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

Exactly, did you read Nov issue yet? MF 2 reviews of 2 more expensive TT's. 1/3 price of his even more absurd Cont...., but still absurd. those $2,000 VPI are mere Best Buy TT's it looks like now. Of course he doesn't mention if or did he use the exact same cartridges and stuff in comparing these 3 TT's. Again, if he did a real test, as Gordon holt says is now abandoned,(blind testing) thus making all this useless tests, and merely writings of what he seen visually and thus his perceptions of personal assumptions. If you are seeing what you are listening to, then it affects the outcome, one may strike you visually something seems better...thus it changes your entire audible perception. If these pricey products vary and differe so much in sound, they are really crap!!! they all claim musical hi fidelity, they can't possibly be that different . But in order to SELL stuff, writers need to make it seem like they are all so unique, they ain't. Only the price only the way the advertising dept wants you to perceive it. The founder of StereoPhile says, all these tests are invalid. If not blind tests, they are just personal perceptions, ain't they. If you see what is playing, it's not teh sound that is the only influence. Thus it's not a true test of the sound, but what it visually does to you, personal preferences. Soem guitar amps have pilot lites that are too brite, it make sme think the soudn is too brite.....so easily influenced...and dark colored TT, has a darker sound, a RED one is BRIGHT. a yellow one, is way to brite sounding. How come MF didn't put his TT setup movie on VHS TAPE, it's more analoge than DVD..analog is better ain't it. higher resolution according to some nudnicks. But how come DVD is, higher rez, an dlooks better? Same with audio ain't it. The electronics doesn't know if it's video or audio signals, it's just electrons and magnetism, and pits and other stuff. What does it mean when the TT comparison was "interesting"? Vauge vauge vauge, did they all sound alike, and now MF is pissed, he wasted money on the $100K spinning platter?

Jan Vigne
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Re: MF more of teh same


Quote:
If you are seeing what you are listening to ...

If you are actually seeing what you are listening to you either have a way better system than I do or a better street connection. I know it's not the former.


Quote:
... now MF is pissed, he wasted money on the $100K spinning platter?

He told you that? That isn't what I read.

bjh
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Re: MF more of teh same

Dup,

More of "teh" same indeed, more of the same from you that is!

Your rant seem more a recounting of common themes you hold dear to heart than a rational criticism of the Fremer review. Included in those common themes we have:

1) Irrational attacks on Fremer.
2) Rejection, as

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

Teh "world" of analog...just think if teh industry kept on this OBSOLETE path. Hmmmm, how do you carry that 27 pound cell phone? HDTV? Nah, DuMont live!!! CD/DVD/SACD...we don't need no stinkin' nosie free, clean consumer recording playback medium. Let's keep kleaning LP's. Snap crackle pop. Analog is a dead product, that just doesn't know when to close the lid on the coffin. If it takes $24,000 $100,000 TT or even a $3500 TT combo , to sound decent, when most $200 SACD/CD players do it probably better, and easier, you know it's OBSOLETE. It's like Henry Ford not wanting to stop making the Model "T". Or phone equipment mfgs keep producing rotary dial phones. Or GM still trying to sell FINS on it's cars. Digital tv took off with flat panel sets, cus it's better, still want teh FCC to not get rid of teh analog broadcast in a few years, still have that B&W Motorola Quasar set, before Matsushita bought the brand...oh yeah, analog is so much better. Maybe CB radio is better than cell phones? It's actually entertaining to watch. SACD/DSD smokes anything a spining platter can offer, for much less $$$$, and ease of use. Premeir reviewer of analog, he says to DEMAGNETIZE PLASTIC!!!!! And he hears the change!!!! Keep thinking about that.

bjh
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Re: MF more of teh same

Oh right, another item for the list...

- Complete dismissal of LP replay.

... and we need reminding of that and all the other things you feel so passionately about via a steady stream of sophomoric rants exactly why?... for goodness sake Man grow up!

Jan Vigne
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Re: MF more of teh same

That I understand!

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

Sophmoric is one level above Freshmantic? If audio stayed analog....it would be baaaaaaaaad. Let's stay with incandescent lighting too, it's been around over 100 years too. I like CFL and LED myself, but it might be just too updated for some that can't let go of obsolete crap. If vacuum tubes where still the mainstay of electronic ckts, man, would this world really suck and be boring. Rabbit ears, now those where the days of fine tv viewing, let's go down to teh hardware store and test the tubes, my GE tv don't work...1961....let's not go back. The LP is so obsolete, it doesn't sound better than digital. It's limited capacity, limited life, since it wears each time ya play it, it is obsolete. Hanging onto it, gives some a job, for a while, but they really should be getting trained in more up to date technology. Ain't never listened to an LP that was better than an SACD, DSD/SACD smokes anything from a LP, on any TT you could create. Now let's get up and flip that LP, the 21 minutes are over...snap crackle pop, damn warps, I need a Furutech de warping griddle, waffle maker, do i de magnetize before or after I de warp? DSD/SACD Delivers, while vinyl is like thinking a bottle of wine is worth $5,000 cus' it's old.

Jan Vigne
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Re: MF more of teh same

Huh?! How do you come up with this crap?

stereophillips
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Re: MF more of teh same

It's called "proof by assertion," Jan.

Carl is essentially saying, "You can take my word for it if you don't believe me," albeit at greater length and frequency.

Jan Vigne
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Re: MF more of teh same

Geez, you could follow that post? Or did you just guess that's what he was trying to say?

Poor Audiophile
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Re: MF more of teh same

I don't own a turntable & have no plans to buy one.
However, there must be a market for them(and other expensive products)otherwise manufacturers wouldn't make them!
If you don't like the reviews, don't read them!!!
P.S.- Stephen, I really would like a spell checker here as I'm not too bright!

dcstep
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Re: MF more of teh same

Does this thread have something to do with changing teh English language???

All over this forum I see "teh" as if it's used on purpose. Am I missing something?

Dave

AceMineral
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Re: MF more of teh same

I think the "teh" is all in his mind to be such a constant misspelling.

Buddha
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Re: MF more of teh same

Am I the only one who noticed that Mr. Fremer has gotten so good that he can now review a turntable with an unfamiliar arm and just home right in on the innate sound of the table, bypassing the arm completely?

Check his review of the Merrill-Scillia Research MS21 and look for the part that says, "I will not be discussing the tonearm"....[even though it was the only one I used with this table and I have not previously reviewed it.]

Come on, amigos, a guy who can run into a new table with an unfamiliar arm and then write a review of just the table is not your average average guy - he's special.

At least with the other turntable review in the new issue, he acknowledged the possibility of an arm/table combination affecting the sound.

I wonder, how long until he can review turntables with no arm at all?

(Sorry to end up in the "DUP-region," but someone does seem to review in ways that mere mortals cannot.)

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

The man is truly beyond mortal abiltys. Superman is jealous!!!!!Next he will review a AC cord, without the speakers, the amp or even the thing it's hooked up to, meaning anything, he will do a Carnak the Magnificent on it, hold it to his forehead, and he will hear Ed McManhon laugh of course, he is good, remember. And he will declare it to be one of the finast line cords he has heard in years. Of course he will realize he is holding the vacuum cleaner cord by mistake, and declare, it doesn't matter the cord under review, or attempted review is so good, it even makes cords around it sound better, even if hooked to something else. MF world also has 23 hours of daylight.

bifcake
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Re: MF more of teh same

After reviewing the vacuum cleaner's power cord, he will claim that the vacuum cleaner sounded more concise with greater bass extension. The vacuum cleaner had a lower noise floor with this new power cord, with blacker blacks and less hiss.

He will also go on to state that he prefers the older, analog vacuum cleaners vs. the new digital cleaners, because the digital vacuum suction pulse of 44.1 hz isn't fast enough to get all the dirt.

Upon testing the vacuum cleaner, JA will discover that the vacuum cleaner's plug wasn't polarized properly. MF will claim that after hearing the vacuum cleaner again, with proper polarization, that he liked it even more because there was more "there, there". So... there.

rvance
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Re: MF more of teh same

This is what I read: Michael Fremer's positive comments about the physical properties/improvements of the Tri-Planar tonearm were merely observations and did not constitute a "review" or endorsement of its individual sonic character. The turntable was then reviewed as a unit with that arm. The review was well written and conveyed enough essential information, filtered through years of Fremer's experience, to inform the readers and impart a sense of understanding.

Are the previous posters vying to fill a void left by the striking screenwriter's guild? If so, they may not want to team up with someone so contemptuously hateful of the language and the due consideration necessary to communicate effectively. But given the lack of anything worth saying, I guess language and context don't mean shit anyway.

bifcake
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Re: MF more of teh same

Newsflash: After conducting a tactical assault on Michael Fremmer of Stereophile, Dup gathered his minions in an ad hoc battle formation to lead an all out assault on the English language. Having taken advantage of the screen writer's guild strike, the English language found itself lacking a sufficiently skilled force to defend itself. The English language was overrun by poor spelling, grammar and punctuation. Yet it was the typos flanking from the side that dealt a final blow.

Having been blind sided by the fall of the English language, Michael Fremmer found himself speechless. In his final suicidal rush, he flung his remaining superlatives and cash at a poorly spoken, out of phase turntable. As MF's lifeless career hit the blood soaked, improperly spelled battlefield, Fremmer whispered "rosebud" before disappearing into the oblivion alongside the likes Corey Greenberg and Chip Stern.

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

Exatcly, as long as sit's more there, then before, when it was merely sorta there. I bet he won't like the new high efficiency furnaces either, since they are into digital controls of the stuff. anything more efficient, will of course not be as good as teh old analog versions of it. Just because, because it gives him a job, to be teh anti digital. Analog displays are of course better, that's why in 2009 they are banished ..FCC says, neit, no more, going digital. Does his old analog cell phone also soudn better than teh newer digital systems, that give ya less RF at your brain, and has better clairty, better range, analog is obsolete, it is inefficient. Even lighting controls, ballasts are DIGITAL, or at least hi freq, cus they work better, run cooler, last longer. DuMont tv's are no more. The LP is a dead fish, it does not sound better than DSD, it is just more work, so of course he is gonna say it's better. Is he a martyr? If it's more difficult, it must be better? When he goes deaf and needs a hearing aid, and it's DIGITAL, so it can be made tiny, will he demand an old analog model? Maybe he will join JGH and be angry at the world, it's all digital and more efficient. Even the Lapinski DIGITAL amp beat the PAss analog preference test in pro audio review, more power, less heat, better more efficient. The reviewer took a Pass on Pass, and the Pass costs much more. How does he hear what he claims to hear, it is mind boggling, it is in another world maybe he needs to expalin in a article, just how he manages to do it. It would actually be interesting, how he tests this stuff, and draws teh conslcusions he does. Cus it baffles me. And yet with super hearing he couldn't hear that the $45K 3 piece combo from Darzander Zender was mis wired during mfg...$45K and they ain't stamping them out like hundreds a day, you'd think they would pay more attention to making it. Measurements matter, measurements prove things, over personal preferences and imaginary artifacts of the day. No DBT with the CONtinuum vs. the almost bargain priced in comparison, to find hey, these things sound alike...hmmmm, no wait, I heard something...oh wait, it was my cat walking near me....never mind

tomjtx
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Re: MF more of teh same

You get em , Dup.

Dup + MF bashing = one of my favorite combos

gkc
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Re: MF more of teh same

DUP, did you even read Alex O's post?

Now, don't get excited. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

For the millionth time, DUP, Van Alstine electronics do not validate your tin ear and bad grammar. This is average budget stuff. I have heard his best. Cambridge, Creek, Music Hall, and NAD beat the crap out of the junk you pimp, at 1/2 - 1/3 the price, in terms of neutrality and soundstaging.

No wonder you can't tell a zip cord from a Tara Labs -- your cheesy electronics aren't letting anything downstream.

Sorry. It's a slow night in Euroland -- the dollar is weak and gold is strong, but what else is new? So, I thought I'd just trade a few insults with my favorite woody.

Buddha makes a serious point, about the arm-turntable combo, but I suspect it's a matter of style and garbled communications from Mike's end. I have enough confidence in Mike's analog recommendations to at least go listen for myself.

DUP, there is nothing you could recommend that would get me off the crapper, much less out the front door. Got that? Anything you tout is a mandate for avoidance. Your posts have done more to banish Van Alstine and Legacy (undeservedly so, in terms of the latter, but, again, one must consider the source...) from the merest pretensions to respectability than any bad review could ever do.

Do the digital. Leave analog to those of us who enjoy music.

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

Korg it!!! At 2X DSD SACD rate, takes analog where it belongs, into the closet with teh Edison wind up players. AND, checkout teh low price for such sonic masterpieces. analog is a mere distorted, mushed up, highly seasoned, highly muddied version of teh original tapes. Only DSD brings the original recordings to teh consumer. An LP is not gonna get you teh original sound of teh recordings. LP with it's limited dynamics, high distortions, AND everytime you play it, you are taking off signal wearing it out. In the 21st century, things have improved ya know. Do you think drum brakes from teh 1962 Plymouth are better than the current ABS/ESP discs...ABA is teh result of digital technology, control systems, AND they are now only a few hundred dollars to add into any car. Plymouth Valiants where analog brakes, nice poor quality brakes. Let's see a side by side comparison of the new Korg DSD recorder to some $100K TT spinning platter, you gots to be kidding, teh Korg is less than $2K, with no wear each time ya play it. Even Lee Iococa proclaimed when someone asked about his old Mustangs, that he created, he said, buy a new one, the old ones are unsafe, poor performers, the new ones are much better. Just like spinning plastics, versus new DSD digital. Unless of course if that distorted, mushed over, poorly defined sound, it what you consider, the sound of teh original recordings. cus I have 3 versions of teh same stuff teh DSD/SACD smokes teh LP, smokes teh early CD version of teh exact same recordings. The DSD/SACD is what was on the original 40+ year old tapes. Unless you have a 30IPS tape machine, with the studio tapes, you ain't hearing it, off an LP, no matter what the spinning platter costs. Accept it, digital DSD IS the best way to get the original to your home. Like a guitar amplifier, that is made to distort, the LP is distorting the original recordings, not reproducing them.

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

Bacj to teh original question......YES.

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

merely "observations"....well so are reviews, ya take what it gives ya. The guy designing it and making it, is testing and redoing, all reviewers are mere observers.

KBK
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Re: MF more of teh same

thank you. For it is indeed - crap. Dup's behaviour is primarily offensive in nature. Unless something suits the way he wants to see the world and/or understands it..he attacks it in some fashion.

Apparently..he understands very little. For he attacks all the time.

The primarly consideration for good moderating, in a forum that has a point of controversy,as this space does, ie Objectivism and subjectivism..is to remove, with instant and extreme prejudice..any posts that rant in a way that is extreme.

Also, to remove posters who violate that premise of 'human, thinking people, who have a capacity to see all sides of an argument in an agreeable and open minded fashion'. To remove them, without warning, and with prejudice. Even to the point of banning their IP's when they attempt to 'come back' in disguise.

The net is rife with them, and this forum will garner no large user base that reflects the buyers of the magazine...until such a point is enacted. Basically it should be (for reasons of overall sanity) a largely DBT (Double Blind test) free zone.

I have no problem with DBT testing, per se, but I have a problem with folks who, due to their obvious behaviour..have no freaking clue how to do such testing and have no idea how to hear these nuances and differences. Or how to conduct a proper DBT test that leaves these nuances within the context of the test, so the test remains valid.

It's like trying to explain the multiplication tables to a shithawk. All it can do is scream at you, no matter what you do.

Anyone who argues that a given isolation device, or cable, or whatever the case may be..in a DEROGATORY and CONFRONTATIONAL MANNER......MUST be removed (after ONE warning) from the rolls of forum members immediately.

And, maybe, just maybe, a year from now..this forum will be a hopping and happening place.

Right now, it merely serves a place for 'mouth breather' objectivists to run rampant and attack people for understanding something that they don't..or they refuse to attack with logic or reason..and respond with childish rants and anger, instead.

The situation is complex, to say the least. And, like in Solomon's temple, the blade must be drawn, and the child must be cut in half in some manner.

I would venture that to save the child (Stereophile readership, overall)..that the Objectivists that exist without reason, the ones who post with vitrol..MUST be banned with extreme prejudice.

End of story.

And the beginning of a working Stereophile Forum.

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

That's Scaaaaaaaaaarey. I'm done, you got me spooked. Do small animals run away from you too? WOW. you win, I'm outa here.

CECE
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Re: MF more of teh same

But do try and hear real hi fi, get some DSD SACD discs, and try a KORG or Tascam RV-1000.....DSD, it's even for scaaaaaarey people.

Buddha
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Re: MF more of teh same

HI, KBK.

As an objective subjectivist, I think we need both flavors and both sides expressing their ideas in order to decrease the width of then chasm between the two camps.

I believe listening is actually a potentially objective thing, so I land with the subjectivists on the importance of using one's ears as a guide.

On the other hand, I think we need to explore the notion of "repeatability" for subjective claims. I think of this as a fun sub-subject in the hobby. This kind of discussion makes me think more about my listening and how I hear things, which makes the hobby ever more enjoyable.

All in all, it's just light fun disagreement that takes place between audio friends, so I hope we never evolve into an either/or site.

As to DUP, think of him as an idiot savant, light on the savant, who likes to rattle teacups with his system and call it "lifelike."

After you learn the five things he is able to post, you can just skim a thread for the posts between when DUP is busy replying to himself.

One good general rule about DUP...

CECE
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Re: MF more of the same

Dat's a gud von.............but in your heart you know I'm right. No magic wires, no magic plugs, no magic bi furcated connector matters, or has any sound on hi fi. It's all just good electrical DESIGN, acoustics, in speakers, speakers also are electrical in their action. When you remove teh nonsense hi fi, is fun, but when it gets bogged down in crap, like magic blocks, magic insulations, it's really baaaaaad. Henry Kloss, Dave Hafler, Avery Fischer, etc all did real design work, with some tinkering, how come they never sold magic dots, even VPI ventured into nonsense with their magic block of crap...really sad. It's scaaaaaaarey out there, with what some people will accept. What will an audiophile not beleive. Now let's ban any thoughts of non conformity, with teh beleiving crowd. Let's chant, magic magic magic magic, not desing, not science, not acoustics, . That will be $3,990. For this weeks special CD player, with Zanderized ckts. Listen to any good sounding screws? Clamps, the next frontier of insanity, how they soudn different right?

bifcake
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Re: MF more of teh same

I think there are two issues at hand here:

1. Whether hifi is about the euphonics, ie the joy of sound or if it's about accurate reproduction. A case can be made for either school of thought. For example: what good is accuracy if you are not involved emotionally with the music? Conversely, how do you define fidelity and how do judge equipment if all you're doing is asking for colorations? Then one man's euphony is another's distorted horror.

2. Snake oil - Various manufacturers are offering accessories that they claim raise the level of playback. These involve power cables, interconnects, vibropods, etc. None of these accessories are cheap and the seemingly wilder the claims, the more expensive an accessory becomes. Somehow, it's impossible to make a good interconnect for $10, they have to cost hundreds, thousands and even hundreds of thousands. This is where DUP comes in. If you carefully read his posts, his main objection is with the overpriced equipment and accessories that make very wild, unsubstantiated claims and those who defend these claims without any sort of scientific proof. This is the area where most of his rants are concentrated. He makes very valid points in this regard and if you can get past his presentation, you will see intelligent ideas being discussed.

With regards to banning, and aggressive moderation of the forums, we've traveled this road before. I don't think we need to travel it again. There is room for all opinions and we are big boys and girls and I think we can handle DUP's rants and raves. There's no need to run to mommy.

CECE
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Re: MF more of the same

I ran to mommy, that man scaaaaared me, with his observations, and ideas. Wonder if small animals run from him, and the women in his life wear burkas? That's a scaaaaaarey dude. Now, NO TALKING!!!! SIT UP!!!! Or was that the former USSR audio club president? Mommy please this man scared me......bwaaaaaaaaaabwaaaahhh. Hey, tell that kid to shut up, he is disturbing the forum. You tell me what is more disturbing?

tomjtx
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Re: MF more of teh same

KBK,
you are far more offensive than dup. You have no right to call for a ban and censorship.

Your recommendations and your posts do far more damage .

But since I am not an arrogant prognosticator like you I wouldn't call for you to be banned.

I would, however, be glad to recommend a place where you can put your overinflated head.

KBK
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Re: MF more of teh same

I think you may have missed the point. Which isn't unusual, in that they say that only about 9-12% of what one means is actually understood in a face-to-face conversation.

The vast majority of users who MIGHT venture into this forum..and discuss..what they love, and it is AUDIO re-created in their homes...by EQUIPMENT...they would likely take one offensive jab from the likes of DUP..and then..never post again.

As an example, someone I know, personally, in fact..made a relatively innocent inquiry in the 'high end' area of the AVSForum. Andy asked if folks had much experience with the Nordost Cable Burner.

He was slammed by the 'objectivist' camp so much..for even CONSIDERING that a cable burner was a valid thing to buy or use...that he never even posted a single follow up to his intital inquiry.

A-Holes can't simply leave others alone, is the point. The so-called objectivists, in a startlingly high number of instances, are merely prejudice and bias in disguise, with no attempt of any kind to work at finding their own solutions to the puzzles presented..other than viciously deriding those who feel otherwise. Ie, no balance in their psychology.

Such behaviour does not serve this Forum's intentions very well, I'd wager. Thus the obvious point: Do what needs be done.

~~~~~~~~~

To clarify-

The vast majority of audiophiles are gentle souls who have no time in their lives for uselessly confrontational and repetitively psychotic bullshit that the people who contribute the most vitrol on this forum, or other forums, exude, in virtually every post.

Gentle Audiophiles, these music lovers, the folks the forum is >>REALLY<< trying to reach, they will never post here, or come here, if they are constantly attacked. Or, if attacked - even once. Hell..they won't ever come here, at all.

Get it?

The final point is that Folks like DUP, in terms of nature and style of posting, under any method of analysis, are fundamentally destructive to the nature and reason behind the Stereophile Forum itself.

Another way to see it:

DUP is standing outside of a High-End audio shop. He is there every day.

He waits for folks to walk by, talking to them as the walk away, or following them in and talking to them while they are in the store. Or he attempts to talk to the employees, owners and any Reps that might visit. Trying to tell them that all they do --is wrong.

How long would it be before the business owners call the police on him and have an injunction slapped on him, or attempt to have him committed for his obviously bent behaviour? How long before they call the police on him??

Less than a week, for sure. More like 2 hours or less.

CECE
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Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: MF more of the same

I'm not on that forum, don't blame me. Cable burners, yupper, another high end marvel. Right up there with those mapingo blocks, and Ayre wood blocks, and whatever other blocks ya gots. I used to have those kids blocks with the alphabet on em.... Ever see the high end block head? Let's talk about EQUIPMENT, not nonsense. Have you had any experience with the new DXD I see in a Pyramix article, do you know what it is? Is it like Super Audio CD squared or sumptin'?

tomjtx
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 12 2006 - 2:53pm
Re: MF more of teh same

No, kbk , I did understand your post. Your elementary thought process is simply not that hard to follow.

I am a subjectivist as well but I don't like censorship.

The only "vicious" attack here is your call for banning someone who doesn't share your view.
Get over it, ignore his posts.

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