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linden518
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MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

Very much enjoyed the review (thanks, MF). While I was reading the Artemis Lab TT review, I couldn't help but think how much of a bargain the TT is, then I totally hit myself on the head: it is still $7K+! One thing that took my breath away was how MF put the price of Artemis Lab TT in perspective: it costs 5% of his Continuum Caliburn. Wow.

I think I myself have gotten very desensitized to the spike of hi-fi prices. It was only last year when the state of the art phono stages seemed like $5-6K, and now, they're regularly $10K+, and how much was that Ypsilon LCR phono stage again?

The other day, I looked at MF's 1st review of Manley Steelhead to read about the Steelhead's EQ functions, and it seemed almost quaint and touching how MF went out of his way to qualify the astronomical price of the Steelhead, at $7300, which doesn't seem so outrageous now compared to other phono stages.


Quote:

Unfortunately, the Steelhead was designed as a price-no-object component. When the financial dust had settled, Eveanna Manley found that admission was a steep $7300. But remember: If you're a turntable-only audiophile, you don't need another preamplifier, and you can use the fixed outputs as a "Record Out."

I've no doubt that a lot of the components that are so high-priced are priced according to performance; although I've heard a lot of high-priced components that sound horrible (most frequently loudspeakers), many of the high-priced gear that I've heard simply sounded fantastic.

But in general, I wonder if the hi-fi consumers are too docile in accepting the rise-and-rise of the hi-fi gear prices. As I said, I caught myself off-guard by how desensitized I've become by the prices which seemed so ludicrous to me a year ago.

KBK
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:
Very much enjoyed the review (thanks, MF). While I was reading the Artemis Lab TT review, I couldn't help but think how much of a bargain the TT is, then I totally hit myself on the head: it is still $7K+! One thing that took my breath away was how MF put the price of Artemis Lab TT in perspective: it costs 5% of his Continuum Caliburn. Wow.

I think I myself have gotten very desensitized to the spike of hi-fi prices. It was only last year when the state of the art phono stages seemed like $5-6K, and now, they're regularly $10K+, and how much was that Ypsilon LCR phono stage again?

The other day, I looked at MF's 1st review of Manley Steelhead to read about the Steelhead's EQ functions, and it seemed almost quaint and touching how MF went out of his way to qualify the astronomical price of the Steelhead, at $7300, which doesn't seem so outrageous now compared to other phono stages.


Quote:
Unfortunately, the Steelhead was designed as a price-no-object component. When the financial dust had settled, Eveanna Manley found that admission was a steep $7300. But remember: If you're a turntable-only audiophile, you don't need another preamplifier, and you can use the fixed outputs as a "Record Out."

I've no doubt that a lot of the components that are so high-priced are priced according to performance; although I've heard a lot of high-priced components that sound horrible (most frequently loudspeakers), many of the high-priced gear that I've heard simply sounded fantastic.

But in general, I wonder if the hi-fi consumers are too docile in accepting the rise-and-rise of the hi-fi gear prices. As I said, I caught myself off-guard by how desensitized I've become by the prices which seemed so ludicrous to me a year ago.

Psychology of buyers in given price brackets also come into play, here. The underlying monkey/crow in people inherently likes shiny things..and spousal happiness with regard to appearances comes into play. All these things (and others) can add up to and sometimes do add up to some high end items looking interesting but performing rather poorly, when it comes to servicing the music. This is not unusual in any free market.

Michael Fremer
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

There will always be people pushing the price and performance envelope and god bless them for doing so. We don't have to buy the stuff but if the performance does justify the price, hopefully someone will come along and say "I can match that performance for a lot less," and do so!

smejias
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:
While I was reading the Artemis Lab TT review, I couldn't help but think how much of a bargain the TT is, then I totally hit myself on the head: it is still $7K+!

It's scary, isn't it? It happens to me all the time, too. And it wasn't very long ago that I was shocked and frightened by anything -- a CD player, a pair of loudspeakers, whatever -- costing more than a few hundred dollars all by itself.

I think it is important for us to remember that the prices of high end audio components are often shocking to newcomers. As we become more familiar and comfortable with the hobby, however, we'll become more familiar and comfortable with the prices, too. But I try to always hold onto my ideas of value and, of course, I try to keep my priorities in sight.

smejias
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:
There will always be people pushing the price and performance envelope and god bless them for doing so. We don't have to buy the stuff but if the performance does justify the price, hopefully someone will come along and say "I can match that performance for a lot less," and do so!

Right on.

linden518
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:

Quote:
There will always be people pushing the price and performance envelope and god bless them for doing so. We don't have to buy the stuff but if the performance does justify the price, hopefully someone will come along and say "I can match that performance for a lot less," and do so!

Right on.


Double amen.

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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
There will always be people pushing the price and performance envelope and god bless them for doing so. We don't have to buy the stuff but if the performance does justify the price, hopefully someone will come along and say "I can match that performance for a lot less," and do so!

Right on.


Double amen.

Why 'amen' to pushing the price envelope?

Shouldn't it just be 'pushing the performance envelope?'

_________________________

Hey, did I just hear a ranting sound from New Jersey?

linden518
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

The amen's for pushing both the price & performance envelopes.

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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


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The amen's for pushing both the price & performance envelopes.

Yeah, pushing the price envelope is important.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

But that is where the turntable thing can be fun. Mixing and matching arms, cartridges, and tables. Which combinations make sense to even think about?

For one, would a Graham Phantom on a P3-24 or a P5 plinth with a power supply matched with a Grham Phantom be equal or better than a P9? I know many of you could think of a number of combinations that might work for you. They are certainly endless.

Once you get the disc spinning at the right speed should you move quickly on to the best arm money can buy? I know that what ever table/arm combos I have owned over the years my cartridges have held me sonically back more than any table I have owned. I wasn't until the last 7 years that I even gave a hoot or considered a "phono stage" as being as important as the rest of the phono hardware. My purchase of a Monolithic Sound Phono Stage was enlightening.

I think more and more that a proper $2K table ought to be something along the lines of a P3-24 with the powersupply upgrade and a $900 to $1K cart. and if we have moved the bar to $1K more, then that should be spent on a $1K phono stage upgrade rather than a slightly better table and arm.

I thought the idea of moving up one Rega cart in the P3-24 review was very telling of what potential owners should be doing to fully enjoy their purchase.

Welshsox
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

Just a new thought on the extortion in high end audio

It would be cheaper to buy an Aston Martin with Linn sound system than a high end Linn home system

It would be cheaper to buy a Bentley with a full Naim system than to buy a high end Naim home system

It is cheaper to buy a Jaguar XF with full custom B&W 14 speaker system that a 800 series surround system

Car buyers will not accept that a car hifi needs to cost $150,000 so companies like Linn, Naim, B&W, B&O, Dynaudio etc produce fantastic systems that add $2,000 - $10,000 to the price of the car for the entire system of source, HDD, amplifiers and speakers.

Yet as talked about is the OP and subsequently the industry is proud that we know charge $20,000 for a phono amp and $100,000 for a TT.

Am I the only one who is disturbed that a well paid middle class person can no longer afford exotic hifi ?? I can afford a Jaguar XF for $60,000 with a great B&W system in it as my primary transport but i cannot afford $100-$150K that the latest high end systems are going for. It is totally ridiculous that a TT costs the same as an Aston Martin or Ferrari.

Alan

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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:
I can afford a Jaguar XF for $60,000 with a great B&W system in it as my primary transport but i cannot afford $100-$150K that the latest high end systems are going for.

In other words, you can afford 60K worth of audio equipment? Heck, save up for two years and then go drop 120K on some of the latest high end stuff.* But I sense that my advice is neither wanted nor appreciated, because you're just venting...


Quote:
It is totally ridiculous that a TT costs the same as an Aston Martin or Ferrari.

Another way to put it would be, "It is totally ridiculous that an Aston Martin or Ferrari costs the same as a nice home or a TT."

*Just for the record, when I use the term, "afford," I mean the ability to purchase something outright, not on time, a note, a loan, etc. But I'm weird like that.

mrlowry
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

Yes, but Hi-Fi holds it's resale vale better than do automobiles.

KBK
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:

Quote:
While I was reading the Artemis Lab TT review, I couldn't help but think how much of a bargain the TT is, then I totally hit myself on the head: it is still $7K+!

It's scary, isn't it? It happens to me all the time, too. And it wasn't very long ago that I was shocked and frightened by anything -- a CD player, a pair of loudspeakers, whatever -- costing more than a few hundred dollars all by itself.

I think it is important for us to remember that the prices of high end audio components are often shocking to newcomers. As we become more familiar and comfortable with the hobby, however, we'll become more familiar and comfortable with the prices, too. But I try to always hold onto my ideas of value and, of course, I try to keep my priorities in sight.

I do the Sun Tzu thing, as in 'If you wait by the river long enough, the body of your enemy WILL float by'.

Meaning, if you can be patient and thinking in the buying process, you eventually will find the performance you want at the price you can afford.

Welshsox
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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

You obviously have not checked Audiogon lately !!

Most stuff is at 40% of new value after 6 months, the solid engineering stuff Bryston, Mac etc doesnt do to bad but the overpriced junk like $20,000 phone stages will lose 50% the day its bought !!

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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT

Unfortunately, pushing the performance envelope IS pushing the price envelope. The kind of experimentation that pushes the performance envelope costs money. And there are no economics of scale, at the early stages of development. Trial and error are expensive.

I think Stephan was saying "amen" to BOTH the entrepreneurial spirit of those leaders who originally do the pushing, and to the followers who later apply the economics of scale that bring prices down.

As I have been blathering for years, if you are a concert junkie (as I am), you stagger home after being awed in the concert hall, try to remember it all, and then start listening to what's new in the world of High Fidelity. When you finally hear it done right, according to your memories of the live experience, you look at the price tag, say "gulp," and pay up. Unfortunately, most easily affordable gear doesn't do justice to the memory of the live experience, which carries forth no compromises. That is just the way it is. I wish it were otherwise.

Patience CAN bring you "the body of your enemy floating by," as one of you on this thread so aptly put it, and, you CAN sometimes have both fidelity and affordability merely by waiting, but usually, by then, there have been further pushes of the envelope. Not always, but usually.

I think Michael understands all of this quite well, considering how long he has been on the quest. And, he does love the experience of live music. I suspect that, like the rest of us who also love this experience, he understands what it takes to come ever closer to recreating the memory of it in his living room, as well as the current technology will allow. Remember, the entrepreneurs who push this envelope ALSO are music lovers, or they wouldn't be able to put up with the grind of bringing ideas into concrete representations of them. I don't think it is something you start out to do just to get rich...

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Re: MF on Graham Phantom/Artemis Lab TT


Quote:
Unfortunately, pushing the performance envelope IS pushing the price envelope.

That was my point.

The goal is to push the performance envelope.

The price envelop is for designer purses and Starbucks.

linden518
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Pinging MF: Artemis Labs TT not on Recommended List?

MF, I noticed that the Artemis Labs TT didn't make it onto the Recommended List, but saw that the Graham Phantom II tonearm and the Ayre USB DAC, which were also reviewed in the OCT issue, did make the List... is there any particular reason for the omission? If it's just the case of the review not being finished in time, in which class would you personally recommend for the Artemis Labs TT? Curious.

Editor
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Re: Pinging MF: Artemis Labs TT not on Recommended List?


Quote:
I noticed that the Artemis Labs TT didn't make it onto the Recommended List, but saw that the Graham Phantom II tonearm and the Ayre USB DAC, which were also reviewed in the OCT issue, did make the List... is there any particular reason for the omission?

At the time I was compiling the list, while I knew Michael was writing about the Graham arm and Wes the Ayre DAC, I had not yet seen the raw text for the same issue's Analog Corner and did not, therefore know that Mikey had decided to include the Artemis 'table. Mea culpa.

john Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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