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cyclebrain
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Just a couple of questions

For the most part loved the July issue.
But!!!!
The reference to the K-S cables as being "among the quietest I've used". Do other cables really add noise?
I bet an open cable would be very quiet.
And in the Conrad Johnson review do you mean that teflon capacitors don't meet their specs when new but change their value after use? If so by how much do they change? Is it within their tolerence? If not why are they using such crap?

CECE
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Re: Just a couple of questions

Some of the stuff does sound absurd. The sound of a piece of wire still baffles me, no matter how much prose and dramatic writing trys to defy logic.If componets change so much, really, why don't they use components that stay in spec? I know one mfg. that uses certain types (not BRANDS, but TYPES) because of their stabilty, temperature stabilty etc. Passive components have advanced big time over teh last few decades. New materials, ensure they don't drift out of spec. Resistros, capactiors,active devices too. Which is why theconcept of componet break in is absurd to me. Vacuum tubes are a differetn beast, Solid State componets are exactly that. If capactiors and resistors are changing from the spec, how come video displays don't have a break in issue, like LCD etc. Hmmm, again, the world of high end audio is engineering taken to some absurd marketing mostly. How come componets in new cars with all teh electronis in modern cars now, can be stable in every enviormental condition ther is, EXTERME changes in temperature, humidtys, vibrations, you name it a car is subjected to it, yet the stuff just keeps on working for years and years, even the wiring in cars lasts forever under extreme heat, cold, flexing, everything, but in high end audio, a speaker wire is affected by sitting on a carpet!!!!! Hmmmmm, and I'm sure they type of "cable elevator" is also audible. It sho' is entertaining....

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Just a couple of questions

This post is absolutely absurd. To use your words...have you never seen a car broken down on the highway? Components fail all the time from thermal issues under the hood, and not just from poor maintanence. You would think after decades of making generators and water pumps we would be beyond having to replace them, but that is hardly the case. After all we have a huge auto repair industry to keep going. Since car sales have tanked the spare parts business is going to be more important.

There was a certain high end integrated amp that sounded wonderful in Class A. It was biased so high the failure rate was awful. There is a huge sonic difference in working and not working. As it was dying a slow death who knows how the sound deteriorated.

Components with a +/- 5% variation can equate to 10% variation in your gear if they run high and low on YOUR circuit board. I am not worrying about this any more, but that does not mean these differences make NO sonic difference, as they do! Then we have people who want to cryo parts?

Every break in a pair of Triangle or Dnyaudio speakers? I have and 200 hours later the magic starts. Does the magic start to die out 5, 10-20 years later? Absolutely, but then so did my ears. If JA took 5 pair of bookshelf speakers and measured them all would they be +/- 1 or 2db?

Professional recording engineers buy microphones in matched pairs for a reason, tube and solid state. In this land +/- 2db is not uncommon. You agonize all you want about your gear when possibly the recording engineer probably did not? We know JA does, but then not everyone captures as much as he does either.

How closely matched are your Whispers? Once you set them up in your room with the furnishings brought into the mix the EQ is probably much different. People walk into the room to listen...what changed now?

The timeless issue of "what am I missing" is keeping all this alive and cash registers ringing. People rush out all the time to buy new cables that will make less or more of a difference. It is a pursuit of their audio happiness.

The differences are there it is just an issue of do they matter to you. Most are not this paranoid about their gear.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Just a couple of questions


Quote:
For the most part loved the July issue.
But!!!!
The reference to the K-S cables as being "among the quietest I've used". Do other cables really add noise?
I bet an open cable would be very quiet.


Actually, an open cable would probably be quite noisy. A shorted one would be quieter. As for my comment, I am merely telling you what I hear when I put my ear to the speaker. There is always a residual noise level, usually audible only with the system gain all the way up. In that situation with the K-S, the level is lower than usual. Is this relevant at normal settings and in the presence of signal? Dunno but less noise is empirically better than more.

Kal

RGibran
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Re: Just a couple of questions

Kal,

Since you seem in a question answering mood...If I may...

A few articles back, I believe perhaps when you reviewed the Velodyne Sub EQ, you stated you had changed your mind regarding Main/Sub frequency interface, and were now of the opinion is was preferred to run the Mains high passed and the Sub low passed and EQ'd as this assured the bass flat in that region, and that you were going to try that in your big system with your large floorstanders.

Curious if you had the opportunity to experiment with this and if you are still of the same opinion? If so, at what frequency are you suggesting all the low bass be handled by the sub.

Thanks,

RG

Jeff Wong
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Re: Just a couple of questions

DUP - Have you ever tried some of these oddball (and sometime free) tweaks, or do you just dismiss them based on what you believe "should" be the result?

I know you don't have carpet where your speakers and cables are, so this tweak is not something you'd have been likely to investigate, even though the cost is nil, save for some expenditure of time. I've actually tried this cable lifting tweak at my friend's place and can report it works well. My friend's old listening room was carpeted and we used overturned tea cups (sans tea) to lift his cables off the carpet. When we did so, there was an audible drop in the noise floor. The spaces between musical notes were blacker. Whether this had to do with static build up or lack of proper shielding, I've no idea. But, the change was audible, good, and repeatable. After discovering this improvement, he kept the tea cups in place, much to his then girlfriend's displeasure.

I enjoyed hanging out with you and would gladly do so again. No doubt, your system is incredibly impressive, but, this mostly has to do with its dynamics and slam. Having heard your system in person, it gave me some insight as to why you might not hear the results of some of these tweaks. To my ears, it lacks most of the stereotypical qualities that many audiophiles hold dear. The kinds of nuances and subtleties that some of these tweaks reveal would be masked or inaudible in your system.

On a related note, after witnessing what appear to be your typical listening levels, I worry if you might damage your ears if you haven't already suffered some hearing loss. MAN, YOU LISTEN LOUD! Cue forum members whispering, "Was there any doubt?"

Monty
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Re: Just a couple of questions

I have taken a bit of flack for suggesting that I can hear an improvement in my system when the humidity levels are higher. I mention this because I think it relates to lower static in the air and carpeting and why I do not doubt that raising the cables off of the carpet could produce some benefit. Since the humidity levels increase at night, at least where I live, perhaps this could contribute to my perceived quieter, darker background when listening at night. I'm not sold on that being the case, but I'm open to the possibility.

I can somewhat relate to Dup's perception of power in that I used to listen at ear splitting levels in my car and never wanted for resolution or detail. At 110db, just about every detail is loud enough to be easily heard and the air will certainly move through your body leaving you with a sense of visceral impact.

There ain't nuthin' subtle at those loud levels...'cept for maybe the chattering of teeth shaking in your skull. I'm not knocking it, or Dup for enjoying it, but those days are over for me. I'll push an occasional 95db for brief periods of time, but there are very few tracks that can yank my chain in that direction anymore. Steve Earle's, Copperhead Road comes immediately to mind.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Just a couple of questions


Quote:
Kal,

Since you seem in a question answering mood...If I may...

A few articles back, I believe perhaps when you reviewed the Velodyne Sub EQ, you stated you had changed your mind regarding Main/Sub frequency interface, and were now of the opinion is was preferred to run the Mains high passed and the Sub low passed and EQ'd as this assured the bass flat in that region, and that you were going to try that in your big system with your large floorstanders.

Curious if you had the opportunity to experiment with this and if you are still of the same opinion? If so, at what frequency are you suggesting all the low bass be handled by the sub.

Not yet.

Kal

cyclebrain
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Re: Just a couple of questions


Quote:

Quote:
For the most part loved the July issue.
But!!!!
The reference to the K-S cables as being "among the quietest I've used". Do other cables really add noise?
I bet an open cable would be very quiet.


Actually, an open cable would probably be quite noisy. A shorted one would be quieter. As for my comment, I am merely telling you what I hear when I put my ear to the speaker. There is always a residual noise level, usually audible only with the system gain all the way up. In that situation with the K-S, the level is lower than usual. Is this relevant at normal settings and in the presence of signal? Dunno but less noise is empirically better than more.
Good point, on paper a shorted input would be quieter than open input. But I still have a problem with the concept of a speaker cable introducing noise unless it is somehow picking up some kind of radiated energy in the audio range.
If you did a test with two different cables connected only to the speaker and nothing else would you still hear the noise?
I am not trying to be difficult or be disrespectful, I just have a hard time relating measurements and science with subjective analysis. Even though I realize that listening to music is about subjective and not measurements.
Kal

CECE
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Re: Just a couple of questions

217,000 miles on my 98 Jetta VR-6..Original brake rotors, only replaced brake pads ONCE!!! at 122,000, coming due again....NEVER changed alternator, nutin' a drive belt once in a while, lotsa thermal going on under there hot, cold, NEVER a fault NEVER....properly designed equipment will NEVER drift about extrmeme conditions. And use items designed for a purpose.. There are 1% resistors, and better, super stable, capacitors with very tight tolerances...it's all available, no magic, just good design. Wire insulations have different temp ratings, use the correct type, and it will not have a problem.

CECE
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Re: Just a couple of questions

Listen LOUD? I just got in, from Stone Pony Matt Oree was wailing, opened for The Outlaws....I wear ear plugs at those events always, Stone Pony has a muddy, boomy system, no detail at all, I never measured it, but it is overbearing loud, but it ain't the loud, it's the boom and blur, lack of detail there that obscures teh detail...the stage is sort of carpeted, walking all over teh mic cords, guitar cords, amp to speaker cabinet cords, no cable lifters.

Monty
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Re: Just a couple of questions

If I had people walking all over my cables several times a week and had to roll 'em up and toss 'em in a van on top of or under a pile of equipment and drag them around from gig to gig...I'd probably be a lot more concerned with durability and thick insulations that meet the required code than how they sounded in a nightclub full of drunks and stoners.

Those poor cables; they've probably had the magic electrons squished right out of them.

CECE
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Re: Just a couple of questions

It was a great nite, actually not many drunks, really, everyone is into the MUSIC!!! The cables/connectors are mostly Nuetrik, w/ Hosa/Mogami/Proco Sound cables, etc. All the stuff from the PRO catalogs. The stuff get constant hard use, and has to function. The stuff is very well made, I see the same cables all the time, and they NEVER fail, never add noise etc, like intermittent connections etc. The sound system in Stone pony is sub par (especially after hearing HOB in Chicago), as is the way it's set...boomy, shrill, poorly done. It's also OLD, OLD OLD. Just think of the abuse it's taken over the years..and it still keeps on going. The band's cabling gets constatnt flexing, coiled up un coiled, thrown into bags etc..Magic brands sold to people who can hear electron smear etc., would never, never work. The magic wire brands are well marketed, and they create the nonsense, to make it seem like there is some differences, so the stuff sells. Pro audio mags, catalogs talk of reliabilty, durabilty, and SOUND QUALITY at the same time. Nuetrik, SwitchCraft, are probably the most used connectors in pro world. They make numerous different types, styles, and price points. Nuetrik makes some great stuff. Low level signal cables of course have noise issues, flexing if a weak connectoion causes noise, from mics, guitars they are concerned with hum, RF, EMI, and also making sure the cabling survives being in service. They manage to do both. Without the insulation/twist/electron separator of the month, that seems to be teh norm for home audio stuff.

eagle
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Re: Just a couple of questions


Quote:
DUP - Have you ever tried some of these oddball (and sometime free) tweaks, or do you just dismiss them based on what you believe "should" be the result?

I know you don't have carpet where your speakers and cables are, so this tweak is not something you'd have been likely to investigate, even though the cost is nil, save for some expenditure of time. I've actually tried this cable lifting tweak at my friend's place and can report it works well. My friend's old listening room was carpeted and we used overturned tea cups (sans tea) to lift his cables off the carpet. When we did so, there was an audible drop in the noise floor. The spaces between musical notes were blacker. Whether this had to do with static build up or lack of proper shielding, I've no idea. But, the change was audible, good, and repeatable. After discovering this improvement, he kept the tea cups in place, much to his then girlfriend's displeasure.

I enjoyed hanging out with you and would gladly do so again. No doubt, your system is incredibly impressive, but, this mostly has to do with its dynamics and slam. Having heard your system in person, it gave me some insight as to why you might not hear the results of some of these tweaks. To my ears, it lacks most of the stereotypical qualities that many audiophiles hold dear. The kinds of nuances and subtleties that some of these tweaks reveal would be masked or inaudible in your system.

On a related note, after witnessing what appear to be your typical listening levels, I worry if you might damage your ears if you haven't already suffered some hearing loss. MAN, YOU LISTEN LOUD! Cue forum members whispering, "Was there any doubt?"

A carpet can pick up static, which maybe could get into the sound system through wires laying on the carpet. So, raising the wires off the floor could maybe make a difference?

CECE
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Re: Just a couple of questions

That's why I had to buy a pair of speakers called WHISPER.............I listen at low levels once in a while, really....But then it get's BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't give me the visceral charge like LIVE music when it's just like listening to well a stereo. The idea is to REPRODUCE a live event? Thus ya needs the slam, the IMPACT, the feel of it all. And not just LOUD, but being able to hear teh nuances of individual instruments, When cranking even a Rolling Stones SACD...which are based on some 40+ year old ANALOG recordings, I've listend for SUBTLIES, like hearing a tambourine, change or miss a beat, hearing the fingers slide on the guitar, ya can even hear the pick striking the string, at an inapproitate time, just touching the string....all kinds of subtle nuances, that are lost inauble when I play it on say the car or BLOSE wave upstairs. Where anything goes in, usually comes out 80Hz, BOOM. Even that can play LOUD, with no resolution. Shows how good even the old analog recorders where back then, compared to what we used to use to listen to. Now home reproduction stuff has gotten to the same level as pro studio stuff, so you do hear what they actually recorded. And the home stuff has really dropped in price to sometimes mortal prices. Sometimes not..well that's just cus' some makers just like to charge more than the stuff should be selling for, because they can, and they just advertise it better. Loud, it does a body good. Well, not really, just ask the WHO dude, they played so loud over the years, he did, ruin his ears..and now is an advocate of hearing protection, and other hearing related issues.

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