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Jan Vigne
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The effect of tea

Given the stated goals of the TP - diverse and disconnected as they may be, what are we to expect should a sizeable portion of the TP backed candidates running for National office be elected? They will surely caucus with the Repubs meaning they wil have no real power of their own. The R's know from experience and pragmatism that most of their efforts to dismantle Government will be blocked by the Dems and certainly vetoed by Obama. Without a 60 vote veto proof block, nothing will get beyond the rhetoric of the TP candidates' pandering to the 20%(?) of voters they represent. Is the destruction of Social Security and Medicare - two vastly popular "socialist" programs supported by many of the TP's elderly and soon to be elderly base - really in the sights of the R's due to the influence of a handful of incoming members who have been financed by coporations and outside "anonymous" donors? Or, do the most irrational of the TP supporters just expect someone to "witch" it away?

The mantra of the TP has been to label any R who even knows a D as a "RINO" and to remove them from the running. This spells simple obstruction from the TP to all programs which would progress this country forward should they win. The R's cannot pass any legislaton if their members include a handful of no-compromise ideologues any more than the D's could sweep the public option through their more moderate members.

How foolish would it be for the TP's to insist that, say, the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 be re-examined to include Rand Paul's well out of the mainstream comments? Do you really suppose those individuals firmly entrenched in Washington power and money would think it a wise idea to repeal the 17th Amendment? Would immigration actually be addressed any more than it has been under the D's? Would the evangelical wing of the TP's insist that the US Government rush in to stop the personal decision making of another Terry Schiavo? That certainly didn't win the R's any moderate swing voter converts back in the 2006 and 2008 elections.

Just what would the TP's effect be since they will have no power other than that typically and historically granted to incoming freshmen Representatives and Senators by the Repubs who already know their limits? The Repubs are notorious for their "waiting your turn" philosophy of moving people forward in the power plan. No Committee Chairmanships are going to be handed to any TP candidate, they will sit at the far end of the dias whenever investigations are convened or bills are debated. You can expect Republican Party Leaders to exert the same pressure to conform which has been in place for decades. At best, a few more "Michelle Bachman" types will draw some attention to stir the crazy pot on Fox News but what else is there to expect? Are the TP's actually damaging the Repub brand just for short terms gains in a single election? What are you expecting should the rosiest of scenarios envisioned by those with Lipton hanging from their hats come to fruitition?

Lamont Sanford
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Secretariat fought for the Tea Party during Watergate and the ye

I beat you to this one, Jan...


Quote:
"Secretariat": A gorgeous, creepy American myth

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/movies/andrew_ohehir/2010/10/06/secretariat


Quote:
Religion and politics are barely mentioned in the story of Chenery and her amazing horse, but it's clear that "Secretariat" was constructed and marketed with at least one eye on the conservative Christian audiences who embraced "The Blind Side." The film opens with a voice-over passage from the Book of Job and ends with a hymn. Wallace, also the director of "We Were Warriors" and the writer of "Pearl Harbor" and "Braveheart," is one of mainstream Hollywood's few prominent Christians, and has spoken openly about his faith and his desire to make movies that appeal to "people with middle-American values."

The hymn was "Oh, Happy Day", which was a pop hit at the time of Secretariat and reached #4 on charts. If you don't remember the evil song here it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD2D6eter7M&feature=related

The hymn was played as Secretariate ran the final stretch at the Belmont. "Every time I listen to this song I feel like like I'm flying!"

The evil verse from Job is about a horse.


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"In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground ... He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength ... And charges into the fray, afraid of nothing ...When the trumpet sounds."

I watched this movie last night. It was about a very fast horse that won the triple crown. In the Belmont, the horse won by 31 lengths. A record that will stand forever. It was a movie about a horse. And yet morons like Jan get pissed off at movies like this. They make them foam at the mouth. Bad Disney! Bad bad Disney. How dare they make a film like Disney.

Look how evil Diane Lane looks. Very threatening. Almost impossible to fathom that the censors let this movie go with a PG rating.

And this will throw you for a loop. They are also playing Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, "The Staple Singers".


Quote:

If you don't give a heck 'bout the man with the bible in his hand.

Just get out the way, and let the gentleman do his thing.

Actually, they played, "I'll Take You There", in the movie. But you get my drift. I'll take you there...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvKRZRofDE

Secretariat. An evil movie.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea


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ONE dirty little secret of the 2010 election is that it won
Monty
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Re: The effect of tea

I don't know anyone who views this election as framed by your post. In fact, everyone I've talked to about this knows this is simply a vote for gridlock to put a stop to the perceived damage being done by the liberal majority. Taking the House and just several Senate seats will ensure nothing gets done in Washington.

The longer term consequences of this election is in the gains made by the GOP in securing Governorships and State Houses. Congressional redistricting begins next year and holding majorities at the State level will prove beneficial for several election cycles into the future.

mark evans
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Re: The effect of tea


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Taking the House and just several Senate seats will ensure nothing gets done in Washington.

Thats the best news of all. At this juncture, doing nothing equates to not getting further screwed by the big spenders in D.C. in my humble opinion .

Drtrey3
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Re: The effect of tea

I am a tea party guy. I have been to Washington twice, and locally several times. What energizes me to go is a desire to scale back government, protect my kids from economic slavery, and smack around the pc crowd a bit. Metaphorically speaking of course.

The leftists have awoken the sleeping middle and I am not sure where it will end. It will likely take over the Rs and the big government, corrupt Rs will switch parties or fade into the background. Take a look at Greece to see what will happen if government is not scaled back. It will not be pretty here, but the conservatives have some momentum. I hope we use it for good, but to do so will require sacrifice in order to shoulder our own debt instead of passing it to our children.

Trey

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea


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I don't know anyone who views this election as framed by your post. In fact, everyone I've talked to about this knows this is simply a vote for gridlock to put a stop to the perceived damage being done by the liberal majority. Taking the House and just several Senate seats will ensure nothing gets done in Washington.

I'll assume you didn't bother to read the NYT article or listen to anything other than right wing propaganda. Any TP candidate making it to Washington will be "the" junior member of Congress. That is a simple fact. As such they will caucus with the R's but they will have no power other than what is bestowed upon them by the party elite. The Republicans are not known for their "Mavericky" style, don'ja know? The Repubs know who actually put them back in power in this election and it was not the tea partiers who have such limited resources on their own. Once you strip away the monies which came from Freedom Works and the Koch brothers' surreptitious mega donations or the many other undisclosed contributions of outside influences the TP will quickly become yet another wilting Reform Party. Where are they now? Not even on the lower portion of most ballots. Quick, is there a Reform Party candidate for Governor in your state? Who is that person?

Honestly, do you truly assume the likes of Eric Cantor will give any credence to the opinions of someone like Sharon Angle? Both parties and most especially the R's know to dance with the ones who brung ya and that isn't about to change in anyway other than further pandering to the base that will be - as those same pandering contracts have been for decades - nothing more than words and more broken promises. The TP candidates have no plan for "taking over" the Republican Party and they all should realize once they get to Congress any TP junior member will be assigned a seat to the end of the dais beyond Scott Brown. Any idea what pieces of legislation Brown has so far brought to the floor for a vote? The TP has no more plan for governance than do the Repubs. They cannot touch the most important aspects of Health Care Reform as the individual components of the bill are still polling as quite popular with the public. Any attempt to restructure the tenets of financial reform will only reveal the R's to be the sockpuppets of the corporations who are not polling well with the public at large. "Cutting spending" is, as Bruce Bartlett has indicated, not the way we are going to overcome our current financial difficulties; "Hard (as possible) facts you might need"/#93722 - 08/10/10 11:09 PM; http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=3&vc=1 Anyone who has no more of a plan than to repeat empty platitudes does not deserve further attention and you can rest assured they will not be given any by Mitch McConnell or John Boehner who are planning on business as usual for the R's.

Other than "cut spending" neither the TP's or the R's have anything to say about the deficit - which is our largest problem at this time as the interest on our debt weighs down everything else we might do - other than extending tax cuts to the super rich which we all know will raise the deficit by billions more of borrowed dollars. If Social Security is a Socialist plan as the TP candidates suggest, it remains a very popular plan that is not to be touched according to the TP at large whose majority constituents are older to elderly members who expect to benefit from the program. The TP is all bluster which the R's have sat back and ridden into office without uttering a single word of realism about dealing with our ongoing issues. Think the R's are actually going to address the 1964 Civil Rights Bill?

Have you forgotten who wields the veto pen?

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea


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Thats the best news of all. At this juncture, doing nothing equates to not getting further screwed by the big spenders in D.C. in my humble opinion

Mark, I have to say I've read your political opinions and I cannot find a single factual or realistic concept in any of them. Do you truly suppose; first, the American public at large wants a government that does nothing - no compromise gridlock - for the next two years while they sit unemployed, uninsured and without a roof over their head and sinking further into debt while watching two wars continue and the rich and powerful getting ever more rich and and more powerful as the middle class populace gets further and further in the hole? Second, how short term is the planning that says do nothing and we'll be the better for it?

Since you have a job at this point - a government supplied job that is, which has financed a very nice and very pricey audio system - to take you at your word is to see you are no different than any other ground level Republican I've ever met. You are concerned with what makes you feel good about yourself and to hell with everyone else. That's a pity.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea


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I am a tea party guy. I have been to Washington twice, and locally several times. What energizes me to go is a desire to scale back government, protect my kids from economic slavery, and smack around the pc crowd a bit. Metaphorically speaking of course.

Try truth instead of metaphors, it gets you further on a day to day schedule. "Economic slavery" is of your own doing, now take responsibility for what you have done. You have no plan, just more false, empty words which mean nothing but to make you "feel good". This is not about you "feeling good".


Quote:
The leftists have awoken the sleeping middle and I am not sure where it will end. It will likely take over the Rs and the big government, corrupt Rs will switch parties or fade into the background.

really, I mean

Do you still put out cookies for Santa too?


Quote:
... corrupt Rs will switch parties or fade into the background

That's your "plan"?! That's it?!!!


Quote:
Take a look at Greece to see what will happen if government is not scaled back.

You poor sot! Take a look at Denmark, Sweden, Germany, etc. where the populace is happier than we are here in the US. Take a look at where they have a higher standard of living and they live longer and enjoy a higher degree of education, health and freedom. Take a look at the list of desirable values and you will find few where the US is now anywhere near the top. Highest defense spending in the known Universe is our current claim to fame. Take a look and open your eyes instead of just allowing in the BS you're being fed by the rightwing, corporatist talking heads. More of the same - which is what the R's are promising - will only get us further behind in everything other than more defense spending. You need a plan.


Quote:
It will not be pretty here, but the conservatives have some momentum

No, they don't. Now they will be faced with having to govern and they cannot just sit on the sidelines throwing rocks at Obama and the D's. I'll ask you the same question I asked the others, do you really think gridlock is what the majority of people (not the TP's you talk to through silly emails calling for "overthrowing the Socialists" or "taking our Country back") want? Do you truly believe gridlock will do this Nation the best service at this time? If you do, you have had too much tea.


Quote:
I hope we use it for good, but to do so will require sacrifice in order to shoulder our own debt instead of passing it to our children.

Oh, my, a "realist"!. What exactly does that mean? How do we go about "shouldering our debt" at this point? Are you prepared to pay higher taxes? There is no other "realistic" way to get out of "our debt" now that we have allowed Reagan, Bush and Bush along with the Repubs to borrow money to pay for digging the hole for the last three decades. Are you prepared to make an attempt at taking back the $1 Trillion Medicare "D" plan? Do you have a plan for Iraq and Afghanistan which will not cost us $2 Billion per week?

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea


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I don't know anyone who views this election as framed by your post.


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Scott Brown Finds Himself On Tea Party's 2012 Hit List

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/03/scott-brown-finds-himself_n_778269.html

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Re: The effect of tea

Jan, I know you are having a bad day. And it is making you cranky. But once you recover, get your facts a little more in line with reality. It really helps in life and on posts.

See you in a few.

Trey

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea

I guess I'm in need of someone with a "clearer vision" of reality to point out where I do not have my facts straight. Know anyone who might qualify?

I know, I know, linking to outside facts which validate my words and opinions just isn't enough for you guys. You prefer those chain emails that are "Pants on fire" lies; http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

But look! here's the proof right on the
Red State website;


Quote:
Posted by Erick Erickson

Wednesday, November 3rd at 8:00AM EDT

As you are settling down from yesterday

Jim Tavegia
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Re: The effect of tea

You are right in that the Right will have to lead rather than just obstruct.

To me nothing will change unless this counrty becomes a prime manufacturer again and we stop thinking that what we really desire is the "lowest price" on everything. We have seen that the shift of blue collar workers to either very low wage jobs or to welfare is NOT what is best for this country.

I often worry that it might be too late for a manufacturing resurgence here, but there are Just not ever going to be enough "marketing" jobs to put most back to work. If it is true that there is another huge jump in forclosures about to take place it is most disconcerting. I have too many students in school who only care about some blue color job, but when you tell them there are not any, they find it hard to believe it is going to impact THEM.

It would seem that now, more than ever before, over seas trips might be curtailed a bit. With the President's current trip to Mumbai at $200 mil a day, a week of that would have put many teachers back in the classroom. I would think that all capital espenditures would come under close scrutiny for a "value audit".

As the Master Card ads say, some things are priceless and others are worthless. If "it's the economy, stupid", then staying home and dealing with it in a big way is what needs to be done. No one other than the President should be leading this charge unless one term is enough for him.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea

I'm sure I'll get more factless arguments over the statement, but R's created a service based economy through the Reagan and Bush years (go look at the opening post on "Hard Facts") and then Bush II destroyed that service based economy. We face yet another Catch 22 in that without jobs, the price of basic goods and necessities cannot rise sufficiently to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US. It's called "The Henry Ford Rule". So many people have thought they could make money the easy way through the stock market that while they were watching their jobs go away to cut costs, their stocks were rising as the company cut costs. That too has now come to an end with the middle class left out of any benefits and loosing their pensions along with the faltering stocks. Time after time the R's have convinced a large segment of the populace to vote against their own best interests. No jobs = no money. No money = nothing to buy. Nothing to buy = no manufacturing. No manufacturing = no new jobs. The trend is now taking place in the service based sectors of the economy. Tax cuts to the wealthiest 2% will not reverse this trend unless the wealthiest do a Meg Whitman and fire all of their illegal immigrant household help. Even then ...

Forgoing foreign affairs seems extremely short sighted in today's world. We can clearly see China and India stepping in to fill voids left by the US. To paraphrase Obama, if we want to play for fifth place, just keep doing what we've been doing.

mark evans
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Re: The effect of tea


Quote:
I am a tea party guy. I have been to Washington twice, and locally several times. What energizes me to go is a desire to scale back government, protect my kids from economic slavery, and smack around the pc crowd a bit. Metaphorically speaking of course.

The leftists have awoken the sleeping middle and I am not sure where it will end. It will likely take over the Rs and the big government, corrupt Rs will switch parties or fade into the background. Take a look at Greece to see what will happen if government is not scaled back. It will not be pretty here, but the conservatives have some momentum. I hope we use it for good, but to do so will require sacrifice in order to shoulder our own debt instead of passing it to our children.

Trey

From one Tea party member to another...Congratulations on the victories Bro.

mark evans
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Re: The effect of tea


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Quote:
Thats the best news of all. At this juncture, doing nothing equates to not getting further screwed by the big spenders in D.C. in my humble opinion

Mark, I have to say I've read your political opinions and I cannot find a single factual or realistic concept in any of them. Do you truly suppose; first, the American public at large wants a government that does nothing

No. I was being a little cheeky on that one. see the smiley after my post?

- no compromise gridlock - for the next two years

for the past 23 months....the Dems have shown NO effort to compromise with the Repubs, so I missed your point.

while they sit unemployed, uninsured and without a roof over their head and sinking further into debt while watching two wars continue and

the rich and powerful getting ever more rich and and more powerful

If thier honest and don't break laws, I don't care how rich someone gets.

as the middle class populace gets further and further in the hole?

Well then, shouldn't you be fed up with the big spenders and high taxers in D.C. too?

Second, how short term is the planning that says do nothing and we'll be the better for it?

Since you have a job at this point

I retired from one career, and now I have two jobs. I'm working harder now than I did before I retired.

- a government supplied job that is, which has financed a very nice and very pricey audio system

Not a federal government job, but a local government job. I actually worked for my wages in the Fire Service, and in some cases, life threatening situations.. No institution provided or gave me anything. I earned what I have aquired through countless hours and years of Fire college and Fire ground decision making.

- to take you at your word is to see you are no different than any other ground level Republican I've ever met.

Not a republican. I'm a Libertarian

You are concerned with what makes you feel good about yourself and to hell with everyone else.

MY family comes first. I work to support MY family. MY earnings are for MY family, MY bills are MY responsibility, MY choices and judgement are MY responsibility, MY achievements are due to MY hard work...

Jan, nobody ever gave me one red cent, I took alot of risks, and payed the price. I took some risks and reaped the benefits. Thats life and we are not guaranteed anything nor or we owed anything.

I'm not part of the "global village" neither am I a "global citizen." I can only believe in personal responsibility. That was how I was raised

Best,
Mark

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Re: The effect of tea


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I guess I'm in need of someone with a "clearer vision" of reality to point out where I do not have my facts straight.

You gotta be fucking kidding us?

Jim Tavegia
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Re: The effect of tea

I still remember my son in Iraq during Desert Storm and as they were completing their tasks and were awaiting the word to turn arround and go into Bagdad ( Which I would bet a pile of mmoney is what Gen. Schwartzkopf was eagerly waiting for the elder Bush to do), but it never came. We had the chance to clean it up right then, but missed it. Now look were we are even forgetting about all the money spent during that time until now. My son could not believe what was happening then. Amazingly all before 9/11.

I strongly feel that until we clean up our own financial mess the rest of the world will have to wait. I know, what is another billon on travel, but you have to make a stand at some point.

Of course if you(and I mean the Pres. , not you) are clue-less and have no idea or the guts to roll up your sleeves and get busy, you might as well travel during your last 2 years in office. This is not the legacy I would want for my 4 years. Even Obama's key staffers are now working on their own careers. I will stand firm that it is high time for his wife to stay the hell home. I am tired of her little, expensive jaunts.

This is Obama's Bay of Pigs. Time to act. "These are the times that try men's souls." Thomas Paine

mark evans
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Re: The effect of tea


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I still remember my son in Iraq during Desert Storm and as they were completing their tasks and were awaiting the word to turn arround and go into Bagdad ( Which I would bet a pile of mmoney is what Gen. Schwartzkopf was eagerly waiting for the elder Bush to do), but it never came. We had the chance to clean it up right then, but missed it. Now look were we are even forgetting about all the money spent during that time until now. My son could not believe what was happening then. Amazingly all before 9/11.

I know you are proud of your son's service in the military. I appreciate him and all men and women in uniform. THEY secure our freedoms!

I strongly feel that until we clean up our own financial mess the rest of the world will have to wait. I know, what is another billon on travel, but you have to make a stand at some point.

Of course if you(and I mean the Pres. , not you) are clue-less and have no idea or the guts to roll up your sleeves and get busy, you might as well travel during your last 2 years in office. This is not the legacy I would want for my 4 years. Even Obama's key staffers are now working on their own careers. I will stand firm that it is high time for his wife to stay the hell home. I am tired of her little, expensive jaunts.

Right! Obama is now planning a trip to the Taj Mahal and a mosque over there. Price tag including security is estimated at 1 billion. SHEESH!

I got a suggestion for the president, its called teleconference.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea


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You gotta be fucking kidding us?

You have to be fucking nuts.

Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea

I must say, I am astounded that a thread relating to the difficulties of the R's governing anything in any manner with the petulant, irresponsible and un-educated in the ways of politics TP's sniping at their ankles has now turned into several of you folks trying to justify your political "philosophies" ( ) to me. Guys, you should have done this with yourself before Tuesday's vote!

Mark, I have to repeat, " ... I've read your political opinions and I cannot find a single factual or realistic concept in any of them." That the D's have made no effort to compromise with the R's is quite factually incorrect. The R's have in fact backed away from the many of the very bills they had previously endorsed and in some cases even sponsored when the D's or Obama have stated a willingness to work with them on the issue; http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...ills&st=cse

We've seen R's frightfully, senselessly and rapidly tacking to the extreme right as the TP's threatened to eliminate any Republican who even knew the letter "D" existed; http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/magazi...ills&st=cse

We are all aware of McCain's ad which stated, "Build the dang fence". Where was McCain just a few years ago on the issue of immigration? Why was he forced to take a 180 degree shift in his positions and his supposed "principles"?

The R's concluded the Health Reform debate by insisting the D's completely scrap the entire plan and begin again with only the R's ideas for no reform;

Quote:
Republicans, meanwhile, have shown no interest in making insurance choice part of a compromise they could accept. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/busine...ills&st=cse

The R"s have told Obama to fire his entire economic team as if they have any say in such things. Yet any criticism of Rumsfeld's mismanagement of two wars was labelled a slanderous "unpatriotic" by the R's.

I assume you've forgotten the R's long history of "compromising" with the D's;

Quote:
So it was more than a little telling when Mr. McConnell laid down his mark in the current budget fight on Tuesday, informing the Capitol Hill press corps that he was ready to offer Democrats a deal, $70 billion in war financing with no strings attached and a total budget identical to President Bush
Jan Vigne
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Re: The effect of tea


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Quote:
... while they sit unemployed, uninsured and without a roof over their head and sinking further into debt while watching two wars continue and the rich and powerful getting ever more rich and and more powerful ...

If thier honest and don't break laws, I don't care how rich someone gets.

Please, Mark, it's "If they're honest ... ".

I have a personal, intellectual conflict with anyone going along with the desire to eliminate the Department of Education who simply cannot write with the most basic of skills. OK?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&...their&type=

Thanks.


Quote:
If thier [sic] honest and don't break laws, I don't care how rich someone gets.

A few things here, Mark. You've entirely missed the point of the sentence in your rush to post ever more right wingnut talking head platitudes-to-live-by. We'll get to that in a moment.

I would say, first, yes, you do have a problem with someone who tries to get rich or at least make themself richer. As you have been instructed by Limbaugh and the crew at Fox News, you've falsely blamed the world economic collapse on those people "buying houses they couldn't afford". This speaks to the fact you do hold those people who tried to claim a bit of wealth for themself in contempt. There was nothing illegal, and in most cases nothing dishonest, in what they did yet you feel they are to blame for the consequences of wanting to have more wealth. And you ignore those who actually made millions if not billions while the world economy collapsed and millions upon millions suffered from the actions of a very small number of crooks who were rewarded rather than investigated for their actions. You are being inconsistent in what you say and claim to think.

Let's take a slightly different scenario and see how you feel about people acquiring wealth through "legal" means. Let's take people who are already quite wealthy yet they want more for themself at the expense of others. For instance we can look at a manufacturer who takes their business off shore yet to a US territory which is under US regulatory control and Federal assistance. Laws have been established which promote shipping jobs to such locations. By employing mostly immigrants lured to the US through false promises the manufacturer increases their profits while the workers themself were "being paid barely half the U.S. minimum hourly wage and were forced to live behind barbed wire in squalid shacks minus plumbing, work 12 hours a day, often seven days a week, without any of the legal protections U.S. workers are guaranteed."

Is that wealthy person being honest? You tell me.

However, according to the current laws of the United States, nothing illegal was being done. There were no laws restricting such operations, quite the contrary. Therefore, what the wealhtiest of manufacturers were doing was not strictly illegal. How do you feel about their further acquisition of more wealth at the expense of the worker? What do your "libertarian" views of the world say about that?

More importantly, what do you say about those people who use their political influence and power to stop any reforms to such conditions? Are they acting honestly and legally?


Quote:
Murkowski wrote a bill to extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas.

So compelling was the case for change the Alaska Republican marshaled that in early 2000, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the Murkowski worker reform bill.

But one man primarily stopped the U.S. House from even considering that worker-reform bill: then-House Republican Whip Tom DeLay.

According to law firm records recently made public, lobbyist Jack Abramoff, paid millions to stop reform and keep the status quo, met personally at least two dozen times with DeLay on the subject in one two-year period. The DeLay staff was often in daily contact with Abramoff.

DeLay traveled with his family and staff over New Year's of 1997 on an Abramoff scholarship endowed by his client, the government of the territory, to the Marianas, where golf and snorkeling were enjoyed.

DeLay fully approved of the working and living conditions. The Texan's salute to the owners and Abramoff's government clients was recorded by ABC-TV News: "You are a shining light for what is happening to the Republican Party, and you represent everything that is good about what we are trying to do in America and leading the world in the free-market system"

Later, DeLay would tell The Washington Post's Juliet Eilperin that the low-wage, anti-union conditions of the Marianas constituted "a perfect petri dish of capitalism. It's like my Galapagos Island."

Contrast that with what then-Sen. Murkowski told me in a 1998 interview: "The last time we heard a justification that economic advances would be jeopardized if workers were treated properly was shortly before Appomattox."

The "Made in the USA" label means standards of quality and standards of conduct.

But more important than how a product is made is how the people who make that product are treated -- as human beings with innate dignity -- who are free to organize and entitled to a living wage.

Did somebody say something about moral values?

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-05-09/politics/real.delay_1_delay-staff-wage-saipan?_s=PM:POLITICS

What do your libertarian "free market" philosophies tell you about this? What about the continued Republican anti-union, low wage attempts to allow the free market to not only promote but even protect such "wealth acquisition" which is, remember, perfectly legal? Who is at fault here, those manufacturers who surely must be aware of the conditions under which their contracted employees live and work? The lobbyists who pushed for the blind-eye treatment from powerful politicans in return for personal favors and more US taxpayer funded investments? The politicians who put such power in one man's hands? Or the political party which accepts $30 million in undisclosed contributions from the US Chamber of Commerce in an attempt to further diminish unions and worker protections? What part does the voter play who continues to support a party which allows and promotes such human rights abuses?

Mark, since I am trying to come to grips with your "libertarian" thinking which consistently favors Republican ways, I'd appreciate a few answers to a few of those questions?

Next, I have another issue to take up with you in this post?


Quote:
If thier [sic] honest and don't break laws, I don't care how rich someone gets.

Can you tell me who in your estimation does have problems with honestly and legally acquired wealth?

And, on this issue, you missed the point of the sentence I posted. The point comes down to the destruction of the middle class as the rich and powerful become ever more so. Of course, there is the obvious hypocrisy of yakking about out of control spending while promoting further deficit spending in the form of extending tax cuts to the super rich. As there will be "no compromise" from the R's on the subject, voting for an R says you really don't care about out of control spending when controlling spending is within your power.

However, more than anything else, I take from your response that you are not concerned about the widening gap between the "have's" and "used to have a little something's"? And that this gap has increased dramatically over the last decade of Republican control of all branches of the US government?


Quote:
Not a federal government job, but a local government job. I actually worked for my wages in the Fire Service, and in some cases, life threatening situations.. No institution provided or gave me anything. I earned what I have aquired through countless hours and years of Fire college and Fire ground decision making.

Finally, ME, do you really see this as so black and white that you cannot grasp the concept of US Federal $$$'s which flow into your local government in order to put more first responders in uniform and on the ground? Your outright falsehoods, and certainly the right wingnut implications of such statements, say you are completely out of touch with reality.

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I still remember my son in Iraq during Desert Storm and as they were completing their tasks and were awaiting the word to turn arround and go into Bagdad ( Which I would bet a pile of mmoney is what Gen. Schwartzkopf was eagerly waiting for the elder Bush to do), but it never came. We had the chance to clean it up right then, but missed it. Now look were we are even forgetting about all the money spent during that time until now. My son could not believe what was happening then. Amazingly all before 9/11.

I strongly feel that until we clean up our own financial mess the rest of the world will have to wait. I know, what is another billon on travel, but you have to make a stand at some point.

Of course if you(and I mean the Pres. , not you) are clue-less and have no idea or the guts to roll up your sleeves and get busy, you might as well travel during your last 2 years in office. This is not the legacy I would want for my 4 years. Even Obama's key staffers are now working on their own careers. I will stand firm that it is high time for his wife to stay the hell home. I am tired of her little, expensive jaunts.

Sir, you get the shortest response as your post is utter nonsense and pure hatred of another. While trying desperately not to sound rude, you are an idiot. There is no other way to view your post and there is nothing to be said to such bullshit. Go listen to Savage.

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...Please, Mark, it's "If they're honest ... ".

C'mon Jan.... their?..they're?.. gimme a break man.

I would say, first, yes, you do have a problem with someone who tries to get rich or at least make themself richer.

Who is the arbiter of said wealth?

Let's take a slightly different scenario and see how you feel about people acquiring wealth through "legal" means. Let's take people who are already quite wealthy yet they want more for themself at the expense of others.

If "at the expense of others' means simply hiring employess to do a job and subsequently paying said employee which in turn, said employee is now able to provide for his family too....well then yes.

Now if "at the expense of others" is in the context of sweat shops in Bangcock...well then thats a different story altogether.
We don't have slave labor over here Jan. Actually we have the best system, although not perfect and I stress 'not perfect' nevertheless we have the best.

What do your libertarian "free market" philosophies tell you about this? What about the continued Republican anti-union,

The Labor Unions have ran their( I like the way I spelled their.lol ) anyways, the Labor Unions have ran thier course...We have a Department of Labor now.

And Jan, don't tell me you don't trust the government to regulate labor.

Mark, since I am trying to come to grips with your "libertarian" thinking which consistently favors Republican ways, I'd appreciate a few answers to a few of those questions?

Jan, In a nutshell..Republicans are more closely to Libertarian principles of personal freedom and liberty, and property rights than the progressive Democrats. C'mon Jan, you know that.

I part ways with the Republicans on a lot of issues, but when it comes to getting the government out of my pocket book, the Repubs are more closely aligned with me .

Next, I have another issue to take up with you in this post?


Quote:
If thier [sic] honest and don't break laws, I don't care how rich someone gets.

Can you tell me who in your estimation does have problems with honestly and legally acquired wealth?

Please, Jan, its " honest and legally..." GOT CHA BACK MAN!

And, finally, you missed the point of the sentence I posted. The point comes down to the destruction of the middle class as the rich and powerful become ever more so. Of course, there is the obvious hypocrisy of yakking about out of control spending while promoting further deficit spending in the form of extending tax cuts to the super rich.

Tax cuts for everyone. Eliminate the current draconian tax code.. Implement the Fair Tax.

Jan,
Get the book, "The Fair Tax" written by Neal Boortz and John Linder. Hell even if you hate Boortz and linder..you will like the read and how the tax code can be changed to benefit everyone.

Do it. just do it.

Finally, ME, do you really see this as so black and white that you cannot grasp the concept of US Federal $$$'s which flow into your local government in order to put more first responders in uniform and on the ground?

As opposed to the government spending millions on studying the mating habits of animals and insects. I really don't see the comparative here.

Your outright falsehoods, and certainly the right wingnut implications of such statements, say you are completely out of touch with reality.

"out of touch with reality" you say....

I would venture to say that yesterdays election results were a clear indicator of how the American people see Washington D.C. as "out of touch".

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I was listening to Boortz on the radio yesterday and almost had a wreck. Boortz registered as a Republican! Oh, he's still the Libertarian that he's always been, but he explained what caused him to register Republican. It was Rubio. He said he was listening to Rubio's speech to the Florida House and was so impressed that he said he had to vote for this guy and so he registered as a Republican.

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I can see no point in attempting further discussions with someone who does not care about his reader or relevant facts. The facts are the difference between an adverb and a possessive pronoun. And while "honest" is an adjective, "honestly" is an adverb. What is "legally", an adjective or an adverb when paired with the transitive verb "acquired"? The two function together as adverbs in "honestly and legally acquired".

You have no facts, Mark, and you refuse to even consider any fact brought before you.

I posted the factual accounting of Republican endorsed worker abuses and the suppression of the worker reform bill. This was a bill introduced by a staunchly conservative Republican. "How conservative? His voting record earned him zero ratings from organized labor's AFL-CIO and the liberal Americans for Democratic Action, and perfect 100s from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the American Conservative Union."

"But as chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Frank Murkowski* became furious at the abusive sweatshop conditions endured by workers, overwhelmingly immigrants, in the U.S. territory of the Northern Mariana Islands, of which Saipan is the capital.

Because they were produced in a territory of the United States, garments traveled tariff-free and quota-free to the profitable U.S. market and were entitled to display the coveted "Made in the USA" label.

Among the manufacturers that had profited from the un-free labor market on the island were Tommy Hilfiger USA, Gap, Calvin Klein and Liz Claiborne.

Moved by the sworn testimony of U.S. officials and human-rights advocates that the 91 percent of the workforce who were immigrants -- from China, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh -- were being paid barely half the U.S. minimum hourly wage and were forced to live behind barbed wire in squalid shacks minus plumbing, work 12 hours a day, often seven days a week, without any of the legal protections U.S. workers are guaranteed, Murkowski wrote a bill to extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas.

So compelling was the case for change the Alaska Republican marshaled that in early 2000, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the Murkowski worker reform bill."

We are discussing a bill which would "extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas" against the abuses of wealthy individuals and corporations and you want to tell me, "We don't have slave labor over here Jan. Actually we have the best system, although not perfect and I stress 'not perfect' nevertheless we have the best."

Sen. Murkowski disagreed when he said, "The last time we heard a justification that economic advances would be jeopardized if workers were treated properly was shortly before Appomattox." Until we chain them down and make them sing "Ol'Man River" we are not talking worker abuse, is that it?


Quote:
If "at the expense of others' means simply hiring employess to do a job and subsequently paying said employee which in turn, said employee is now able to provide for his family too....well then yes.

Now if "at the expense of others" is in the context of sweat shops in Bangcock...well then thats a different story altogether.

What do you think "at the expense of the worker" means? What do you think "in the U.S. territory of the Northern Mariana Islands" means? Are you so totally incapable of actually discussing the issue that you must resort to playing the role of an illiterate?


Quote:
Who is the arbiter of said wealth?

You have no legitimate response to the facts of your own words and so you resort to this?


Quote:
Republicans are more closely to Libertarian principles of personal freedom and liberty, and property rights than the progressive Democrats. C'mon Jan, you know that.

No, you prefer to believe that for convenience sake. If that were not true, you would have viable answers to the questions I ask and not just a brush off of more talking head bullshit. I tell you, "DeLay traveled with his family and staff over New Year's of 1997 on an Abramoff scholarship endowed by his client, the government of the territory, to the Marianas, where golf and snorkeling were enjoyed.
DeLay fully approved of the working and living conditions. The Texan's salute to the owners and Abramoff's government clients was recorded by ABC-TV News: 'You are a shining light for what is happening to the Republican Party, and you represent everything that is good about what we are trying to do in America and leading the world in the free-market system'.

And your response is, " ... when it comes to getting the government out of my pocket book, the Repubs are more closely aligned with me."

To which I come full circle and repeat, " ... to take you at your word is to see you are no different than any other ground level Republican I've ever met. You are concerned with what makes you feel good about yourself and to hell with everyone else. That's a pity." Unfortunately, after this little "exchange" of ideas I can only double down on that sentiment.

You can produce no facts and you respect no facts which go against your chosen beliefs however misinformed they may be. You live off the government funded appropriation of money while complaining about government funding. You have no problem with the rich and powerful becoming ever more rich and powerful "at the expense of the worker" if you simply choose to ignore the abuse and the party which allows and promotes it. "Free market" does not extend to worker abuse for godssake! And you seem not to care about the ever widening gap between rich and poor as continued government funding will take care of you in your present job and in your socialized retirement plan. You live with the idea, "MY family comes first. I work to support MY family. MY earnings are for MY family."

What you wish is that you enjoy the significant fruits of other's labors while giving back nothing and closing your eyes to the abuses of the system so as not to feel bad about what you allow to exist. This is not about a "global village". This about basic humanitarian concern for your fellow man vs a love and desire for more wealth above all else.

Tell me one last thing, Mark, other than the TV evangelists wearing $5k suits and telling you Jesus wants you to be rich by giving your cash to the guy in the $5k suit, which religion or major philosophy of the world promotes what you believe to be your "libertarian" view of life and the acquisition of wealth?

(* Those paying attention to the facts might recognize the Murksowski name as the bette noire of a certain 1/2 term governor and TP fave. Such voices of reason within the Republican Party have since been driven out in favor of those desiring what Mark calls "personal responsibility".)

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Kondracke: Palin
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I can see no point in attempting further discussions with someone who does not care about his reader or relevant facts. The facts are the difference between an adverb and a possessive pronoun. And while "honest" is an adjective, "honestly" is an adverb. What is "legally", an adjective or an adverb when paired with the transitive verb "acquired"? The two function together as adverbs in "honestly and legally acquired".

yeah, yeah...and Obama said he traveled to all "57" states too..I guess he needs to go back to 3rd grade Geography and I need to go back to 3rd grade English

You have no facts, Mark, and you refuse to even consider any fact brought before you.

Facts? according to who?

I posted the factual accounting of Republican endorsed worker abuses and the suppression of the worker reform bill. This was a bill introduced by a staunchly conservative Republican. "How conservative? His voting record earned him zero ratings from organized labor's AFL-CIO and the liberal Americans for Democratic Action, and perfect 100s from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the American Conservative Union."

Whats that got to do with Labor Unions. The Dept of Labor should handle this.

"But as chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Frank Murkowski* became furious at the abusive sweatshop conditions endured by workers, overwhelmingly immigrants, in the U.S. territory of the Northern Mariana Islands, of which Saipan is the capital.

Because they were produced in a territory of the United States, garments traveled tariff-free and quota-free to the profitable U.S. market and were entitled to display the coveted "Made in the USA" label.

Among the manufacturers that had profited from the un-free labor market on the island were Tommy Hilfiger USA, Gap, Calvin Klein and Liz Claiborne.

Yes, now I did hear about that.

Moved by the sworn testimony of U.S. officials and human-rights advocates that the 91 percent of the workforce who were immigrants -- from China, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh -- were being paid barely half the U.S. minimum hourly wage and were forced to live behind barbed wire in squalid shacks minus plumbing, work 12 hours a day, often seven days a week, without any of the legal protections U.S. workers are guaranteed, Murkowski wrote a bill to extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas.

So compelling was the case for change the Alaska Republican marshaled that in early 2000, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the Murkowski worker reform bill."

We are discussing a bill which would "extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas" against the abuses of wealthy individuals and corporations and you want to tell me, "We don't have slave labor over here Jan. Actually we have the best system, although not perfect and I stress 'not perfect' nevertheless we have the best."


Quote:
If "at the expense of others' means simply hiring employess to do a job and subsequently paying said employee which in turn, said employee is now able to provide for his family too....well then yes.

Now if "at the expense of others" is in the context of sweat shops in Bangcock...well then thats a different story altogether.

What do you think "at the expense of the worker" means? What do you think "in the U.S. territory of the Northern Mariana Islands" means? Are you so totally incapable of actually discussing the issue that you must resort to playing the role of an illiterate?

Well, that about sums it up Jan. We have no other alternative but to tell the Federal Government to seize control of those private industries and give Tommy Hilfiger the death penalty.

Are you serious Jan. You don't destroy the worlds best economic system because of illegalities from a few CEO's


Quote:
Who is the arbiter of said wealth?

You have no legitimate response to the facts of your own words and so you resort to this?

Legitimate question Jan. If not the individual, then who?


Quote:
Republicans are more closely to Libertarian principles of personal freedom and liberty, and property rights than the progressive Democrats. C'mon Jan, you know that.

No, you prefer to believe that for convenience sake. If that were not true, you would have viable answers to the questions I ask and not just a brush off of more talking head bullshit. I tell you, "DeLay traveled with his family and staff over New Year's of 1997 on an Abramoff scholarship endowed by his client, the government of the territory, to the Marianas, where golf and snorkeling were enjoyed.
DeLay fully approved of the working and living conditions. The Texan's salute to the owners and Abramoff's government clients was recorded by ABC-TV News: 'You are a shining light for what is happening to the Republican Party, and you represent everything that is good about what we are trying to do in America and leading the world in the free-market system'.

Jan, did you forget that Tom Delay is no longer serving in the House.

And your response is, " ... when it comes to getting the government out of my pocket book, the Repubs are more closely aligned with me."

To which I come full circle and repeat, " ... to take you at your word is to see you are no different than any other ground level Republican I've ever met. You are concerned with what makes you feel good about yourself and to hell with everyone else. That's a pity."

Tell that to the wonderful villagers I met in Papau, New Guinea while doing missionary work. And others that I have helped through my career as a FireFighter.

Not trying to toot my own horn, but quite frankly Jan that last bold statement you made about me was over the top and very unfair.

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...has now turned into several of you folks trying to justify your political "philosophies" ( ) to me.

Whoever the fuck is doing this to Jan needs to stop it right now. Or I'll report you to the campus police.

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Re: The effect of tea

More facts to ignore when they disagree with the crap you can find on the internet to keep your hatred flowing; http://factcheck.org/2010/11/ask-factcheck-trip-to-mumbai/

Please watch this with an open mind; "Echoing Falsehoods Still Don't Ring True" - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#40018314

This is another example of what JIMV once explained to me as the R's distain for "facts". Rather, in his words, the R's get online and talk amongst themself until they find a "story" they like and then they run with it. Check Politifact's gallery of "Pants on Fire" stories and a large portion are chain emails and blogosphere lies; http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...rip-india-will/ and http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

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Whoever the fuck is doing this to Jan needs to stop it right now.

Whoever the fuck is allowing you to roam freely on this forum should be stopped and you should be deported to another group.

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Facts? according to who?

According to the people you just don't care to listen to. You cannot just deny facts because they come from someone with whom you disagree or that they run counter to the lies you've been told. Eventually, Mark, we all need to grow up and realize there are facts to be dealt with. Peter Pan is a Fairy Tale, human rights abuses are for real. That life is not fair to all is a fact.

Your understanding of what the US Dept. of Labor does is obviously not based in any factual information if you think they are intended or designed to substitute for labor unions. So, is this just another "if I say this, that will be sufficient to get Jan off my back", or, is this you actually not understanding how the government you complain about so bitterly does its job? Or, is it both? You've been told to hate government by those peole who do not want government looking at how they acquire their wealth and so you've never actually learned enough about government to understand how it functions and that a portion of your local government salary comes from the tax dollars collected from everyone in the United States. We all contribute to the common good of the Nation as a whole. By making one small part better, we make it better for everyone.

Look at the actual statistics showing what the Dept. of Labor deals with; http://www.dol.gov/whd/statistics/2008FiscalYear.htm

Those are called "facts", Mark. You cannot ignore them and you cannot wish them away because you prefer to think they shouldn't exist. Labor unions do not deal with child labor laws, discrimination or back wages disputes and, when unions do enter into a discussion, they have no force of law behind them. Unions have been shrunk from the Reagan administration days when they represented 20% of the work force to a present day low of 12% of the work force; http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Unions are meant to protect workers within an industry. When the steel workers have labor issues, their arbitrations affect steel workers and not garbage collectors or teachers or child labor violations. These are facts, facts you can find if you would only look and understand.

You have no facts. You post what you have been told to believe and you do not bother to check whether you've been told the truth. You think asking, "Facts? according to who?" somehow lets you of the hook just as you believe claiming Politifact has a liberal agenda allows you to ignore the facts they post. You live in a fantasy world of your own choosing because it's easier to do that than it is to live in a world of facts.

In your opinion George Bush and Tom DeLay are out of office and therefore we shouldn't discuss what they did or what they represent to the ongoing facts of this Nation. Yet Delay is currently on trial for his alledged crimes and we are still paying and will be paying for decades to come for the indiscretions of Bush and DeLay using taxpayer money. DeLay took advantage of the public trust to play with those who would pay him off for their own wealth. He chose to allow the conditions described in that article to flourish, he called it his "petri dish'. I assume you know what occurs in a petri dish? Things grow and then are spread to other petri dishes and eventually there are dozens and hundreds of petri dishes growing things. You cannot dismiss what occurred and is still occurring in these low wage, anti-union manufacturing sites if you want the "Made in the USA" label to mean anything. Delay may be gone but there is nothing to indicate a change in the direction of the Republican Party regarding unions, wages or working conditions. During this last campaign TP candidates often mentioned abolishing the minimum wage along with certain aspects of the Civil Rights Amendment. R's have never supported the minimum wage as a livable wage in the first place. This is what you are supporting if you support the R's. Made in the USA will mean made with substandard working conditions just as it does when you see Made in China. Manufacturing jobs will not return to the US when there will always be another country willing to look the other way when it comes to the already wealthy obtaining still more wealth "at the expense of the worker".

Mark, telling me you have been a missionary or that you are a firefighter does not dismiss you from your obligations of being a person 24/7. That you can so blithely dismiss the horrors of the workers in the Marianas says to me you are more interested in, as you put it, "getting the government out of my pocket book", than you are in the rights and freedoms of others. You have made more than one reference to "those people" who you feel are taking your money and they are always the same code words used by the right wingnuts to mean anyone you can look down upon. Do you not see the contradiction of someone who sits in a church for two hours per week hearing about giving to your fellow man and then spends the other 6 1/2 days figuring out how to get out of that obligation? You feel other people are being given handouts and they are being irresponsible and so forth and so on with all the contempt for another human which the Limbaughs of the world imply. How then can you tell me your work as a firefighter is about helping those people? I've known and worked with enough uniforms to know respect for the person does not come from the uniform itself. I have a family member who belongs to Doctors Without Borders and she has done some wonderful things for the African People. To most who know her here at home, she's a sponge who feels everyone owes her something. Being a real human is a 24/7 job and doesn't come from putting on a uniform or having a title.

The question you did not even place in your last post was about religion and philosophy. Why? It would seem to me that if you could answer that question honestly, then you would have some recognition of what you are about as a human being. I don't care if you have no religious affiliations, that's not important to me. Atheists have a philosophy which guides them. The question of what guides you spiritually or philosophically is not over the top unless you've never had to come up with an answer to that simple question. Basically, it comes down to, what makes you a human among other humans? It is not a uniform or a title and certainly it is not that you can simply turn a blind-eye to human rights abuses for the sake of a dollar. It's not that you helped that person or saved that material possession. Not as long as there are others to save and possessions and dignities which remain out of reach for so many.

What is it for you, Mark?

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Quote:
Facts? according to who?

According to the people you just don't care to listen to. You cannot just deny facts because they come from someone with whom you disagree or that they run counter to the lies you've been told. Eventually, Mark, we all need to grow up and realize there are facts to be dealt with. Peter Pan is a Fairy Tale, human rights abuses are for real. That life is not fair to all is a fact.

Your understanding of what the US Dept. of Labor does is obviously not based in any factual information if you think they are intended or designed to substitute for labor unions. So, is this just another "if I say this, that will be sufficient to get Jan off my back", or, is this you actually not understanding how the government you complain about so bitterly does its job? Or, is it both? You've been told to hate government by those peole who do not want government looking at how they acquire their wealth and so you've never actually learned enough about government to understand how it functions and that a portion of your local government salary comes from the tax dollars collected from everyone in the United States. We all contribute to the common good of the Nation as a whole. By making one small part better, we make it better for everyone.

Look at the actual statistics showing what the Dept. of Labor deals with; http://www.dol.gov/whd/statistics/2008FiscalYear.htm

Those are called "facts", Mark. You cannot ignore them and you cannot wish them away because you prefer to think they shouldn't exist. Labor unions do not deal with child labor laws, discrimination or back wages disputes and, when unions do enter into a discussion, they have no force of law behind them. Unions have been shrunk from the Reagan administration days when they represented 20% of the work force to a present day low of 12% of the work force; http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Unions are meant to protect workers within an industry. When the steel workers have labor issues, their arbitrations affect steel workers and not garbage collectors or teachers or child labor violations. These are facts, facts you can find if you would only look and understand.

You have no facts. You post what you have been told to believe and you do not bother to check whether you've been told the truth. You think asking, "Facts? according to who?" somehow lets you of the hook just as you believe claiming Politifact has a liberal agenda allows you to ignore the facts they post. You live in a fantasy world of your own choosing because it's easier to do that than it is to live in a world of facts.

In your opinion George Bush and Tom DeLay are out of office and therefore we shouldn't discuss what they did or what they represent to the ongoing facts of this Nation. Yet Delay is currently on trial for his alledged crimes and we are still paying and will be paying for decades to come for the indiscretions of Bush and DeLay using taxpayer money. DeLay took advantage of the public trust to play with those who would pay him off for their own wealth. He chose to allow the conditions described in that article to flourish, he called it his "petri dish'. I assume you know what occurs in a petri dish? Things grow and then are spread to other petri dishes and eventually there are dozens and hundreds of petri dishes growing things. You cannot dismiss what occurred and is still occurring in these low wage, anti-union manufacturing sites if you want the "Made in the USA" label to mean anything. Delay may be gone but there is nothing to indicate a change in the direction of the Republican Party regarding unions, wages or working conditions. During this last campaign TP candidates often mentioned abolishing the minimum wage along with certain aspects of the Civil Rights Amendment. R's have never supported the minimum wage as a livable wage in the first place. This is what you are supporting if you support the R's. Made in the USA will mean made with substandard working conditions just as it does when you see Made in China. Manufacturing jobs will not return to the US when there will always be another country willing to look the other way when it comes to the already wealthy obtaining still more wealth "at the expense of the worker".

Mark, telling me you have been a missionary or that you are a firefighter does not dismiss you from your obligations of being a person 24/7. That you can so blithely dismiss the horrors of the workers in the Marianas says to me you are more interested in, as you put it, "getting the government out of my pocket book", than you are in the rights and freedoms of others. You have made more than one reference to "those people" who you feel are taking your money and they are always the same code words used by the right wingnuts to mean anyone you can look down upon. Do you not see the contradiction of someone who sits in a church for two hours per week hearing about giving to your fellow man and then spends the other 6 1/2 days figuring out how to get out of that obligation? You feel other people are being given handouts and they are being irresponsible and so forth and so on with all the contempt for another human which the Limbaughs of the world imply. How then can you tell me your work as a firefighter is about helping those people? I've known and worked with enough uniforms to know respect for the person does not come from the uniform itself. I have a family member who belongs to Doctors Without Borders and she has done some wonderful things for the African People. To most who know her here at home, she's a sponge who feels everyone owes her something. Being a real human is a 24/7 job and doesn't come from putting on a uniform or having a title.

The question you did not even place in your last post was about religion and philosophy. Why? It would seem to me that if you could answer that question honestly, then you would have some recognition of what you are about as a human being. I don't care if you have no religious affiliations, that's not important to me. Atheists have a philosophy which guides them. The question of what guides you spiritually or philosophically is not over the top unless you've never had to come up with an answer to that simple question. Basically, it comes down to, what makes you a human among other humans? It is not a uniform or a title and certainly it is not that you can simply turn a blind-eye to human rights abuses for the sake of a dollar. It's not that you helped that person or saved that material possession. Not as long as there are others to save and possessions and dignities which remain out of reach for so many.

What is it for you, Mark?

Lamont Sanford
Lamont Sanford's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: Mar 31 2006 - 8:32pm
Re: The effect of tea


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Facts? according to who?

According to the people you just don't care to listen to. You cannot just deny facts because they come from someone with whom you disagree or that they run counter to the lies you've been told. Eventually, Mark, we all need to grow up and realize there are facts to be dealt with. Peter Pan is a Fairy Tale, human rights abuses are for real. That life is not fair to all is a fact.

Your understanding of what the US Dept. of Labor does is obviously not based in any factual information if you think they are intended or designed to substitute for labor unions. So, is this just another "if I say this, that will be sufficient to get Jan off my back", or, is this you actually not understanding how the government you complain about so bitterly does its job? Or, is it both? You've been told to hate government by those peole who do not want government looking at how they acquire their wealth and so you've never actually learned enough about government to understand how it functions and that a portion of your local government salary comes from the tax dollars collected from everyone in the United States. We all contribute to the common good of the Nation as a whole. By making one small part better, we make it better for everyone.

Look at the actual statistics showing what the Dept. of Labor deals with; http://www.dol.gov/whd/statistics/2008FiscalYear.htm

Those are called "facts", Mark. You cannot ignore them and you cannot wish them away because you prefer to think they shouldn't exist. Labor unions do not deal with child labor laws, discrimination or back wages disputes and, when unions do enter into a discussion, they have no force of law behind them. Unions have been shrunk from the Reagan administration days when they represented 20% of the work force to a present day low of 12% of the work force; http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Unions are meant to protect workers within an industry. When the steel workers have labor issues, their arbitrations affect steel workers and not garbage collectors or teachers or child labor violations. These are facts, facts you can find if you would only look and understand.

You have no facts. You post what you have been told to believe and you do not bother to check whether you've been told the truth. You think asking, "Facts? according to who?" somehow lets you of the hook just as you believe claiming Politifact has a liberal agenda allows you to ignore the facts they post. You live in a fantasy world of your own choosing because it's easier to do that than it is to live in a world of facts.

In your opinion George Bush and Tom DeLay are out of office and therefore we shouldn't discuss what they did or what they represent to the ongoing facts of this Nation. Yet Delay is currently on trial for his alledged crimes and we are still paying and will be paying for decades to come for the indiscretions of Bush and DeLay using taxpayer money. DeLay took advantage of the public trust to play with those who would pay him off for their own wealth. He chose to allow the conditions described in that article to flourish, he called it his "petri dish'. I assume you know what occurs in a petri dish? Things grow and then are spread to other petri dishes and eventually there are dozens and hundreds of petri dishes growing things. You cannot dismiss what occurred and is still occurring in these low wage, anti-union manufacturing sites if you want the "Made in the USA" label to mean anything. Delay may be gone but there is nothing to indicate a change in the direction of the Republican Party regarding unions, wages or working conditions. During this last campaign TP candidates often mentioned abolishing the minimum wage along with certain aspects of the Civil Rights Amendment. R's have never supported the minimum wage as a livable wage in the first place. This is what you are supporting if you support the R's. Made in the USA will mean made with substandard working conditions just as it does when you see Made in China. Manufacturing jobs will not return to the US when there will always be another country willing to look the other way when it comes to the already wealthy obtaining still more wealth "at the expense of the worker".

Mark, telling me you have been a missionary or that you are a firefighter does not dismiss you from your obligations of being a person 24/7. That you can so blithely dismiss the horrors of the workers in the Marianas says to me you are more interested in, as you put it, "getting the government out of my pocket book", than you are in the rights and freedoms of others. You have made more than one reference to "those people" who you feel are taking your money and they are always the same code words used by the right wingnuts to mean anyone you can look down upon. Do you not see the contradiction of someone who sits in a church for two hours per week hearing about giving to your fellow man and then spends the other 6 1/2 days figuring out how to get out of that obligation? You feel other people are being given handouts and they are being irresponsible and so forth and so on with all the contempt for another human which the Limbaughs of the world imply. How then can you tell me your work as a firefighter is about helping those people? I've known and worked with enough uniforms to know respect for the person does not come from the uniform itself. I have a family member who belongs to Doctors Without Borders and she has done some wonderful things for the African People. To most who know her here at home, she's a sponge who feels everyone owes her something. Being a real human is a 24/7 job and doesn't come from putting on a uniform or having a title.

The question you did not even place in your last post was about religion and philosophy. Why? It would seem to me that if you could answer that question honestly, then you would have some recognition of what you are about as a human being. I don't care if you have no religious affiliations, that's not important to me. Atheists have a philosophy which guides them. The question of what guides you spiritually or philosophically is not over the top unless you've never had to come up with an answer to that simple question. Basically, it comes down to, what makes you a human among other humans? It is not a uniform or a title and certainly it is not that you can simply turn a blind-eye to human rights abuses for the sake of a dollar. It's not that you helped that person or saved that material possession. Not as long as there are others to save and possessions and dignities which remain out of reach for so many.

What is it for you, Mark?

Lamont Sanford
Lamont Sanford's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: Mar 31 2006 - 8:32pm
Re: The effect of tea


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Facts? according to who?

According to the people you just don't care to listen to. You cannot just deny facts because they come from someone with whom you disagree or that they run counter to the lies you've been told. Eventually, Mark, we all need to grow up and realize there are facts to be dealt with. Peter Pan is a Fairy Tale, human rights abuses are for real. That life is not fair to all is a fact.

Your understanding of what the US Dept. of Labor does is obviously not based in any factual information if you think they are intended or designed to substitute for labor unions. So, is this just another "if I say this, that will be sufficient to get Jan off my back", or, is this you actually not understanding how the government you complain about so bitterly does its job? Or, is it both? You've been told to hate government by those peole who do not want government looking at how they acquire their wealth and so you've never actually learned enough about government to understand how it functions and that a portion of your local government salary comes from the tax dollars collected from everyone in the United States. We all contribute to the common good of the Nation as a whole. By making one small part better, we make it better for everyone.

Look at the actual statistics showing what the Dept. of Labor deals with; http://www.dol.gov/whd/statistics/2008FiscalYear.htm

Those are called "facts", Mark. You cannot ignore them and you cannot wish them away because you prefer to think they shouldn't exist. Labor unions do not deal with child labor laws, discrimination or back wages disputes and, when unions do enter into a discussion, they have no force of law behind them. Unions have been shrunk from the Reagan administration days when they represented 20% of the work force to a present day low of 12% of the work force; http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Unions are meant to protect workers within an industry. When the steel workers have labor issues, their arbitrations affect steel workers and not garbage collectors or teachers or child labor violations. These are facts, facts you can find if you would only look and understand.

You have no facts. You post what you have been told to believe and you do not bother to check whether you've been told the truth. You think asking, "Facts? according to who?" somehow lets you of the hook just as you believe claiming Politifact has a liberal agenda allows you to ignore the facts they post. You live in a fantasy world of your own choosing because it's easier to do that than it is to live in a world of facts.

In your opinion George Bush and Tom DeLay are out of office and therefore we shouldn't discuss what they did or what they represent to the ongoing facts of this Nation. Yet Delay is currently on trial for his alledged crimes and we are still paying and will be paying for decades to come for the indiscretions of Bush and DeLay using taxpayer money. DeLay took advantage of the public trust to play with those who would pay him off for their own wealth. He chose to allow the conditions described in that article to flourish, he called it his "petri dish'. I assume you know what occurs in a petri dish? Things grow and then are spread to other petri dishes and eventually there are dozens and hundreds of petri dishes growing things. You cannot dismiss what occurred and is still occurring in these low wage, anti-union manufacturing sites if you want the "Made in the USA" label to mean anything. Delay may be gone but there is nothing to indicate a change in the direction of the Republican Party regarding unions, wages or working conditions. During this last campaign TP candidates often mentioned abolishing the minimum wage along with certain aspects of the Civil Rights Amendment. R's have never supported the minimum wage as a livable wage in the first place. This is what you are supporting if you support the R's. Made in the USA will mean made with substandard working conditions just as it does when you see Made in China. Manufacturing jobs will not return to the US when there will always be another country willing to look the other way when it comes to the already wealthy obtaining still more wealth "at the expense of the worker".

Mark, telling me you have been a missionary or that you are a firefighter does not dismiss you from your obligations of being a person 24/7. That you can so blithely dismiss the horrors of the workers in the Marianas says to me you are more interested in, as you put it, "getting the government out of my pocket book", than you are in the rights and freedoms of others. You have made more than one reference to "those people" who you feel are taking your money and they are always the same code words used by the right wingnuts to mean anyone you can look down upon. Do you not see the contradiction of someone who sits in a church for two hours per week hearing about giving to your fellow man and then spends the other 6 1/2 days figuring out how to get out of that obligation? You feel other people are being given handouts and they are being irresponsible and so forth and so on with all the contempt for another human which the Limbaughs of the world imply. How then can you tell me your work as a firefighter is about helping those people? I've known and worked with enough uniforms to know respect for the person does not come from the uniform itself. I have a family member who belongs to Doctors Without Borders and she has done some wonderful things for the African People. To most who know her here at home, she's a sponge who feels everyone owes her something. Being a real human is a 24/7 job and doesn't come from putting on a uniform or having a title.

The question you did not even place in your last post was about religion and philosophy. Why? It would seem to me that if you could answer that question honestly, then you would have some recognition of what you are about as a human being. I don't care if you have no religious affiliations, that's not important to me. Atheists have a philosophy which guides them. The question of what guides you spiritually or philosophically is not over the top unless you've never had to come up with an answer to that simple question. Basically, it comes down to, what makes you a human among other humans? It is not a uniform or a title and certainly it is not that you can simply turn a blind-eye to human rights abuses for the sake of a dollar. It's not that you helped that person or saved that material possession. Not as long as there are others to save and possessions and dignities which remain out of reach for so many.

What is it for you, Mark?

Lamont Sanford
Lamont Sanford's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: Mar 31 2006 - 8:32pm
Re: The effect of tea


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Facts? according to who?

According to the people you just don't care to listen to. You cannot just deny facts because they come from someone with whom you disagree or that they run counter to the lies you've been told. Eventually, Mark, we all need to grow up and realize there are facts to be dealt with. Peter Pan is a Fairy Tale, human rights abuses are for real. That life is not fair to all is a fact.

Your understanding of what the US Dept. of Labor does is obviously not based in any factual information if you think they are intended or designed to substitute for labor unions. So, is this just another "if I say this, that will be sufficient to get Jan off my back", or, is this you actually not understanding how the government you complain about so bitterly does its job? Or, is it both? You've been told to hate government by those peole who do not want government looking at how they acquire their wealth and so you've never actually learned enough about government to understand how it functions and that a portion of your local government salary comes from the tax dollars collected from everyone in the United States. We all contribute to the common good of the Nation as a whole. By making one small part better, we make it better for everyone.

Look at the actual statistics showing what the Dept. of Labor deals with; http://www.dol.gov/whd/statistics/2008FiscalYear.htm

Those are called "facts", Mark. You cannot ignore them and you cannot wish them away because you prefer to think they shouldn't exist. Labor unions do not deal with child labor laws, discrimination or back wages disputes and, when unions do enter into a discussion, they have no force of law behind them. Unions have been shrunk from the Reagan administration days when they represented 20% of the work force to a present day low of 12% of the work force; http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Unions are meant to protect workers within an industry. When the steel workers have labor issues, their arbitrations affect steel workers and not garbage collectors or teachers or child labor violations. These are facts, facts you can find if you would only look and understand.

You have no facts. You post what you have been told to believe and you do not bother to check whether you've been told the truth. You think asking, "Facts? according to who?" somehow lets you of the hook just as you believe claiming Politifact has a liberal agenda allows you to ignore the facts they post. You live in a fantasy world of your own choosing because it's easier to do that than it is to live in a world of facts.

In your opinion George Bush and Tom DeLay are out of office and therefore we shouldn't discuss what they did or what they represent to the ongoing facts of this Nation. Yet Delay is currently on trial for his alledged crimes and we are still paying and will be paying for decades to come for the indiscretions of Bush and DeLay using taxpayer money. DeLay took advantage of the public trust to play with those who would pay him off for their own wealth. He chose to allow the conditions described in that article to flourish, he called it his "petri dish'. I assume you know what occurs in a petri dish? Things grow and then are spread to other petri dishes and eventually there are dozens and hundreds of petri dishes growing things. You cannot dismiss what occurred and is still occurring in these low wage, anti-union manufacturing sites if you want the "Made in the USA" label to mean anything. Delay may be gone but there is nothing to indicate a change in the direction of the Republican Party regarding unions, wages or working conditions. During this last campaign TP candidates often mentioned abolishing the minimum wage along with certain aspects of the Civil Rights Amendment. R's have never supported the minimum wage as a livable wage in the first place. This is what you are supporting if you support the R's. Made in the USA will mean made with substandard working conditions just as it does when you see Made in China. Manufacturing jobs will not return to the US when there will always be another country willing to look the other way when it comes to the already wealthy obtaining still more wealth "at the expense of the worker".

Mark, telling me you have been a missionary or that you are a firefighter does not dismiss you from your obligations of being a person 24/7. That you can so blithely dismiss the horrors of the workers in the Marianas says to me you are more interested in, as you put it, "getting the government out of my pocket book", than you are in the rights and freedoms of others. You have made more than one reference to "those people" who you feel are taking your money and they are always the same code words used by the right wingnuts to mean anyone you can look down upon. Do you not see the contradiction of someone who sits in a church for two hours per week hearing about giving to your fellow man and then spends the other 6 1/2 days figuring out how to get out of that obligation? You feel other people are being given handouts and they are being irresponsible and so forth and so on with all the contempt for another human which the Limbaughs of the world imply. How then can you tell me your work as a firefighter is about helping those people? I've known and worked with enough uniforms to know respect for the person does not come from the uniform itself. I have a family member who belongs to Doctors Without Borders and she has done some wonderful things for the African People. To most who know her here at home, she's a sponge who feels everyone owes her something. Being a real human is a 24/7 job and doesn't come from putting on a uniform or having a title.

The question you did not even place in your last post was about religion and philosophy. Why? It would seem to me that if you could answer that question honestly, then you would have some recognition of what you are about as a human being. I don't care if you have no religious affiliations, that's not important to me. Atheists have a philosophy which guides them. The question of what guides you spiritually or philosophically is not over the top unless you've never had to come up with an answer to that simple question. Basically, it comes down to, what makes you a human among other humans? It is not a uniform or a title and certainly it is not that you can simply turn a blind-eye to human rights abuses for the sake of a dollar. It's not that you helped that person or saved that material possession. Not as long as there are others to save and possessions and dignities which remain out of reach for so many.

What is it for you, Mark?

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