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CECE
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DSD out from player

Looks like EMMLABS units give DSD outputs...cool www.emmlabs.com Then they also have the DSD DAC's. Only ones I've seen, surely there are more for pro use. Which EMMLABS mostly is. The CDSD unit gives DSD out into his DAC The CDSA single unit looks like a WINNER, upsamples CD PCM to 2X SACD!!!

bobedaone
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Re: DSD out from player

Sony also make a player with DSD out, although they don't make a separate DAC.

soundboy
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Re: DSD out from player

Just announced....

Oppo DV-980H universal player with HDMI v1.2a output for transmitting DSD data

$170.00

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:
Oppo DV-980H universal player with HDMI v1.2a output for transmitting DSD data

Yup. Just ordered one.

Kal

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Re: DSD out from player

I'm just curious if I'm missing out on something useful. What can I use this for? I mean, what is the potential in the DSD output? Does this mean I can buy a really cheap Oppo transport for an EMMLabs DAC and skip the expensive transport I previously had to buy to use an EMMLabs DAC?

Thanks,

- Jeff

CECE
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Re: DSD out from player

EMMLABS DAC doesn't take HDMI from looking at teh back of teh panels, Is HDMI really DSD, hmmmm, I bet not...There are also some legal patents etc involved, does OPPO pay royaltys for all these different formats? Most of em are owned by Philips/Sony How do they sell so cheap and pay all them royaltys to the owners of even Kodak picture disc, HDMI standards? HmmmmmI don't think this thing is outputing DSD, Why don't they show a picture of teh connectors. The EMMLABS DAC and players have specific RCA out for DSD. What good is raw DSD if you don't have a DAC, then what are you gaining anyway, what is wrong with teh DAC in the EMMLABS CDSA unit, that you would get there much more costly player and external DSD. Me thinks the sparates are for studio use functions anyway. When is teh CDSA gonna drop in price? Upsamples CD to 2X SACD!!! Slick, but since he is a DSD duce from teh start I guess he won't ever have a DVD-A included in his units? Some stuff is only out on DVD-A not SACD...thus a Universal player comes in handy...But that is a misnomer if it don't do Blu-Ray...Should be Quasi Universal How did OPPO do what they claim DSD out, needs investigation, and how do they work around the SACD format that doesn't allow it. EMMLABS too?

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player

1. DSD output is permitted if appropriate copy-protection is included. This is part of the HDMI v1.2a protocol and that is what the OPPO uses.

2. Do you need a picture? Did you go to the site and see the HDMI connector on the back? http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/dv980h_image.asp

3. There are compatible devices coming which will include HDMI 1.3a. The first will be, like the OPPO, less expensive machines but the interface will become more common.

4. No, the EMMLabs DACs do not have HDMI.

Kal

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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:
EMMLABS DAC doesn't take HDMI from looking at teh back of teh panels, Is HDMI really DSD, hmmmm, I bet not...There are also some legal patents etc involved, does OPPO pay royaltys for all these different formats? Most of em are owned by Philips/Sony How do they sell so cheap and pay all them royaltys to the owners of even Kodak picture disc, HDMI standards? HmmmmmI don't think this thing is outputing DSD, Why don't they show a picture of teh connectors. The EMMLABS DAC and players have specific RCA out for DSD. What good is raw DSD if you don't have a DAC, then what are you gaining anyway, what is wrong with teh DAC in the EMMLABS CDSA unit, that you would get there much more costly player and external DSD. Me thinks the sparates are for studio use functions anyway. When is teh CDSA gonna drop in price? Upsamples CD to 2X SACD!!! Slick, but since he is a DSD duce from teh start I guess he won't ever have a DVD-A included in his units? Some stuff is only out on DVD-A not SACD...thus a Universal player comes in handy...But that is a misnomer if it don't do Blu-Ray...Should be Quasi Universal How did OPPO do what they claim DSD out, needs investigation, and how do they work around the SACD format that doesn't allow it. EMMLABS too?

I really want to demo the EMMLABs players in my system. A lot of people seem to like them. I want to compare them to my C-5xe for CD and SACD playback and see if I hear any overwhelming difference. Also to the dCS stack....

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Re: DSD out from player


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3. There are compatible devices coming which will include HDMI 1.3a. The first will be, like the OPPO, less expensive machines but the interface will become more common.

4. No, the EMMLabs DACs do not have HDMI.

Kal

Oh well, no point in getting one for me, yet. At least not until Meridian adds something to the 861.... Perhaps to process all the HD audio formats, as well as SACD (LOL, though I doubt it due to MLP, but you can always hope).

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Re: DSD out from player

Aaahh, I didn't see the pictures, THANKS. What is DSD "over" HDMI? EMMLABS has the coaxial out, which is the standard ain't it? How do you sort the DSD off the HDMI signal? The TASCAM DV-RA1000 has "raw" DSD, which is incompatible with any DAC right? So there is no work being done on making DSD DAC'S? Perhaps DSD is at it's optimum, been done by teh creators? But then EMMLABS upsamples CD to 2X SACD, so that means things are being worked on if they can do that? When do they upsample DSD?
When do we see a review of teh EMMLABS CDSA single all in one player, it's almost priced for sale to mortals, well quite far, but maybe they will drop price if they wanna sell to the crowds and not keep it elite?

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


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Aaahh, I didn't see the pictures, THANKS. What is DSD "over" HDMI? EMMLABS has the coaxial out, which is the standard ain't it? How do you sort the DSD off the HDMI signal?

DSD is part of the HDMI spec from version 1.2 and up. These later versions of HDMI are currently being incorporated into players (the OPPO and the new BluRay Denon, to begin with) and into receivers (Denon, Onkyo, etc) and pre/pros (Integra, NAD, Denon, etc.). Halcro,Cary and other high-end companies have promised it but they are lower on the supply chain than the large production companies, so it will take them a little longer. HDMI will become the de facto standard for DSD audio connection.

Kal

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Re: DSD out from player

Maybe DSD over HDMI will give a needed boost to SACD, both stereo and multi-channel. I would like to see the format thrive as well as see 24/96 DVD-A do well. Both are wonderful.

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Re: DSD out from player


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Maybe DSD over HDMI will give a needed boost to SACD, both stereo and multi-channel. I would like to see the format thrive as well as see 24/96 DVD-A do well. Both are wonderful.

As would I but it is hard to be optimistic. This potential for easy compatibility comes too late, I fear, as there is no reason one cannot put high-res multichannel LPCM on BluRay (or HD-DVD). This allows the manufacturers to eschew including DVD-A/SACD capability in the players. Over all, though, I fear that the labels will continue to ignore multichannel music until/unless they see evidence of a more lucrative return.

I, for one, will be getting/keeping hardware to assure that I can continue to play the almost 2000 SACDs I now have. 3 dozen more came in this week!

Kal

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Re: DSD out from player

You might also consider investing in a forklift.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:
You might also consider investing in a forklift.

So far, the hand-truck suffices.

Kal

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Re: DSD out from player

Thanks for waking me up(I think).
I've only had a passing knowledge of HDMI. What with all the attention on Video, I thought it was a video only connection so I haven't paid much attention to it.
Here I was all set to get a Cambridge Audio universal player & possibly find a used Sony TA-9000 ES Preamp & maybe a used multichannel amp or 3 budget stereo amps to set up a multichannel music system & here you guys go & enlighten me;thanks a lot! lol
Seriously though, now I have a tougher decision.
Seems like I'll have to get a Home Theater receiver(ugg!) w/ HDMI input because I can't afford a seperates setup w/ HDMI. Seriously, thanks for sharing the knowledge!

CECE
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Re: DSD out from player

2000 SACD's.Cooool. You must be owning all the ones produced. Once you go SACD, all else really sucks. Have you listened to the EMMLABS CDSA...it looks tempting, but pricey. Why can't that idea be filtered down into a more realistic mortal price? Ed M. dude sholud know DSD/SACD, he was in on it with Philips/Sony developing it. Will his ideas ever become teh $400 player? Chips is chips, make more, they cost less

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Re: DSD out from player-update?


Quote:

Quote:
Oppo DV-980H universal player with HDMI v1.2a output for transmitting DSD data

Yup. Just ordered one.

Kal


Kal, how about telling us what you think of it?
I realize you probably can't do a full review for the mag, as the last one was reviewed recently(970?)
Maybe you can give us some of your insights? Thanks!

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Re: DSD out from player

Do you know if the Oppo is DSD-disc compatible?
(i.e. will it playback discs made on VAIO-computers, or following this procedure: )http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89333.0.html
I am the proud owner of a Korg MR-1 on which I'm archiving my vinyl, and it would be the icing on the cake to find a way of playing back these files...

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:
Do you know if the Oppo is DSD-disc compatible?
(i.e. will it playback discs made on VAIO-computers, or following this procedure: )http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89333.0.html
I am the proud owner of a Korg MR-1 on which I'm archiving my vinyl, and it would be the icing on the cake to find a way of playing back these files...

I have no idea but, if you send me a disc, I will give it a try.

Kal

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Re: DSD out from player

Great. It

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Re: DSD out from player

Is it just me, or is this what SACD should have been 7 years ago? It looks really interesting, and I look forward to you results Kal, and further comments.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:
Is it just me, or is this what SACD should have been 7 years ago? It looks really interesting, and I look forward to you results Kal, and further comments.

They will be brief since there is some question about whether RIAA or Sony or some other entity would be concerned about the unencrypted output. I do not want to get the modifier in hot water. See http://www.switch-box.com/3x_S_PDIF_Transceiver_%28In_Out%29_board.html

Email him if you want info.

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Re: DSD out from player

I am certain that under the SACD license, SACD players are not permitted to digitally output an unencrypted stream of DSD.

However, it is unclear to me whether transcoding the DSD stream to PCM for output is permissible. This may be acceptable and mods, such as this one, may thus similarly be OK.

I have been unable to find definitive information on the license Sony grants. Has anyone actually seen the license agreement? Is transcoding OK?

As a practical matter, I don't find having access to a transcoded PCM stream of a SACD all that interesting. This is simply DVD-A.

I do appreciate however that if the same title is not available on DVD-A and one wants to employ PCM DACs to playback an SACD that the mod would be useful. However given the spectacular sound available at the analog outputs of a good SACD player I can't imagine wanting to process the DSD stream prior to listening to it.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:
As a practical matter, I don't find having access to a transcoded PCM stream of a SACD all that interesting. This is simply DVD-A.

And that's bad? In practice, it is superb.


Quote:
I do appreciate however that if the same title is not available on DVD-A and one wants to employ PCM DACs to playback an SACD that the mod would be useful.

LOL! There are only an infinitesimal number of DVD-A recordings, not on SACD, that interest me. The overwhelming number of hi-rez MCH recordings I own are SACD. They outnumber DVD-As by about 20:1!


Quote:
However given the spectacular sound available at the analog outputs of a good SACD player I can't imagine wanting to process the DSD stream prior to listening to it.

You need more imagination.
The PCM derived from DSD (via a modified Oppo) fed into the Meridian 861 is patently superior to the analog output from any number of much more pricey universal players fed to the Meridian, the Bel Canto Pre6 or the AudioResearch MP1

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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:

Quote:
Is it just me, or is this what SACD should have been 7 years ago? It looks really interesting, and I look forward to you results Kal, and further comments.

They will be brief since there is some question about whether RIAA or Sony or some other entity would be concerned about the unencrypted output. I do not want to get the modifier in hot water. See http://www.switch-box.com/3x_S_PDIF_Transceiver_%28In_Out%29_board.html

Email him if you want info.


Actually, what I was talking about was "DSD Disc". The fact that a user can author DSDs, and the idea that certain standalones could maybe play it, not just the SACD-capable models of PS3.

I'm starting to get interested in DSD, (unfortunately I only have a HDMI 1.1 universal player but might change that!)...for many reasons, but also because of this.

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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:

I'm starting to get interested in DSD, (unfortunately I only have a HDMI 1.1 universal player but might change that!)...for many reasons, but also because of this.

Ah yes, DXD, one more format to lust for. When will it stop? I want one. Of course my Korg gives me 5.6MHz resolution, which is truly incredible. I'd be totally happy if I could get true audiophile input and output and an easy way to slave a terabyte HD to it.

Dave

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Re: DSD out from player

Fun post, Kal.

I should have put more smileys after my post regarding listening to DSD as transcoded PCM. All DSD has spent part (or all) of its life as transcoded PCM even before being pressed onto an SACD. There is nothing bad about PCM at all.

I wasn't aware there were so many more SACD's than DVD's. Most interesting. I have found that there are lots of good SACD's and I ahve bought many, but have only a few DVD-A's.

I guess this proves your point.

I am intrigued that PCM to a pre-pro can be better than an excellent SACD's analog outputs. Is the Meridian simply just that good, or does bad things happen to the analog outs from an SACD player after going through a pre-pro?

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


Quote:
I am intrigued that PCM to a pre-pro can be better than an excellent SACD's analog outputs. Is the Meridian simply just that good, or does bad things happen to the analog outs from an SACD player after going through a pre-pro?

A little bit of everything. The analog outs are dependent on the DACs and outputs of the player and the analog preamp. No postprocessing (e.g., distance/level except what's in the player and no room EQ) unless the unit also digitizes the signals (which the Meridian does pretty well) adding redundant A/D/A steps. Not ideal but it does work OK.

OTOH, digital from the player to the processor lets it (in my case, the Meridian 861) do all the work in the digital domain, including roomEQ, and only does one D/A conversion at the end.

That's all theory but practice confirms it.

Kal

Elk
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Re: DSD out from player

I had no considered DSP. I keep forgetting that this is surround and not two channel.

I find fun that some companies do the opposite conversion; taking the PCM datastream off of a CD and transcoding it to DSD prior to analog conversion, arguing that DSD conversion is better than PCM conversion.

So many ways to good sound.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: DSD out from player


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I had no considered DSP. I keep forgetting that this is surround and not two channel.

The number of channels is irrelevant. IMHO, good room EQ is even more important for 2 channel than for multichannel but it is resisted by traditional audiophiles because (1) all of their components (except for some sources) are purely analog and (2) room EQ is not traditional.


Quote:
I find fun that some companies do the opposite conversion; taking the PCM datastream off of a CD and transcoding it to DSD prior to analog conversion, arguing that DSD conversion is better than PCM conversion.

So many ways to good sound.

Sure, one can get a euphonic change that way but there is no way it will recover information not already there.

Elk
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Re: DSD out from player

Once again, I am thinking too narrowly. All I had considered was the need to adjust speaker delays in multi-channel. I didn't even get to EQ.

Neither transcoding nor upsampling can add additional information of course. My understanding is that some transcode PCM to DSD to take advantage of what the designer believes to be a better way of converting digital to analog. This practice is analogous to upsampling PCM prior to conversion.

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