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j_j
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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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No.

I don't discuss DBT's.

Then why are you doing so?

If you are unwilling to accept the science of human hearing, well, so be it, but then why are you debating any issues at all in this thread?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests


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One of the best analogies I have read....and, of course, all cables sound alike and do not even start on power products.

Wow, who said that? Can you cite the person who made that claim? Really?

As to the "expert" analogy, there is no more evidence for supranormal hearing than there is for ESP, talking to the dead, or alien abductions.

If you want to make a claim that someone has superhuman hearing, let's see the evidence.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Who coined the phrase, "music soothes the savage beast"?

I believe it was "savage breast" - I've met a few of _those_ in my time - and it was Shakespeare.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Hi, John, how are you?

I think some of the people here need to go listen to some music, eh?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Specifically, Atkinson couldn't tell two amps apart in a DBT, so he went with the cheaper one; decided a few weeks later it didn't sound good, and replaced it with the other one: et voila! Audio nirvana. And DBT thereby shown to be useless. It took 'living with' the gear to reveal its 'real' flaws.

That is my problem with double blind tests..It takes me a long time to know my gear to the point that I can note changes quickly.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

Wow too many cerebral people that think way too much about the music instead of just sitting back and listening

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Re: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests


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One of the best analogies I have read....and, of course, all cables sound alike and do not even start on power products.

Wow, who said that? Can you cite the person who made that claim? Really?

As to the "expert" analogy, there is no more evidence for supranormal hearing than there is for ESP, talking to the dead, or alien abductions.

If you want to make a claim that someone has superhuman hearing, let's see the evidence.

I was being facetious...I believe cables do have sound as do power products, as I have heard them in my system.

You can believe whatever you desire...folk on this forum have a host of odd ideas..

I hear differences, others don't...I don't care.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests


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Using the results of blind test regarding sound to draw "scientific" conclusions is akin to saying a major league fastball is unhittable simply because 99 out of a hundred average people can not hit it. Meanwhile the remaining 1% make a pretty good living from being able to hit that fastball.

One of the best analogies I have read....and, of course, all cables sound alike and do not even start on power products.

I have just found the time to read this thread and am finding it entertaining, especially with beer in hand and The Beach Boys on the turntable.

Thanks, Jim

I've pretty much given up on adding comments to this, now, quite senseless and rather circular thread. Everything that needs to be said has been said by both sides of the argument.

The funny thing is that the pro-DBTers use the fact that the cable business has gotten completely out of control, to the point that the cost of the wires alone in some high end system could easily pay for another really good stereo system, to hack away at other types of audio equipment where increasing prices are more in line with better performance. What is also strange is that Stereophile publishes extensive testing data with all the major equipment reviews AND JA does a very good job of trying to correlate the test results with the reviewer's findings.

Stereophile's reviews and equipment testing results coupled with as much auditioning of a given piece of equipment as possible, whether that auditioning takes place at the dealer, in one's home or at a friend's house, is enough information for this writer to make a reasonable decision. No DBT is needed or required.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Hi, John, how are you?

Supping my first Newcastle Brown of the evening, JJ.


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I think some of the people here need to go listen to some music, eh?

Always a good idea.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Hi, John, how are you?

Supping my first Newcastle Brown of the evening, JJ.

It's hard to get Nukey Brown out here, but I do have some Graham-somethingorother Gamekeeper Cabernet that is pretty good in my glass.

I think these guys need to go listen to "Chet Atkins, the RCA Years". As an assignment, then we can give them a quiz.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

Getting too involved in the equipment will ruin your listening experience. Just like a drunk that goes to his first AA meeting. After that his drinking is wrecked for life. If you are a drunk and want to stay a drunk than please don't go to an AA meeting. If you love listening to music than please don't try to find out what all those wires are for on the schematic some idiot engineer thought would be a good idea to include in the owner's manual. Lives are ruined I tell you, ruined!

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Getting too involved in the equipment will ruin your listening experience. Just like a drunk that goes to his first AA meeting. After that his drinking is wrecked for life. If you are a drunk and want to stay a drunk than please don't go to an AA meeting. If you love listening to music than please don't try to find out what all those wires are for on the schematic some idiot engineer thought would be a good idea to include in the owner's manual. Lives are ruined I tell you, ruined!

Funny.

I KNOW what those wires do, I even designed the reason some of them are there, and I still like listening to music.

I guess it all depends...

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Quote:

I don't discuss DBT's.

Then why are you doing so?

I'm not, you are ... I think you are ... that's what you're doing, right? It seems a lot of people are not exactly doing much of anything here. That's one reason I don't "discuss" DBT's.


Quote:
If you are unwilling to accept the science of human hearing, well, so be it, but then why are you debating any issues at all in this thread?

I'm not debating. I don't even have any note cards with me.

I'm perfectly willing to learn more about the "science of human hearing" but this thread isn't going to do that.

I was willing to discuss an issue concerning music. If you had read the early stages of this thread, you would have seen where I made that agreement. I have no interest in DBT's and no interest in another DBT thread. I stayed here to discuss music but that hasn't worked out because those who were supposedly engaged in that discussion haven't returned. Axon posted something that agreed with me after he had originally disagreed with me but then he later disagreed with both himself and me before pedantically turning his own point around and then he metaphysically agreed again - or was it he disagreed that time, it's so damn hard to follow this shit - so I have no idea how that came to pass.

I am "confuted"!

Your comments have made no sense to me at all so I really have no further business here I suppose.

If it matters at all, I would agree a seventh chord is above the audibility threshold - whatever that is supposed to mean. Micro-dynamics are little, teensy weensy sounds that people pay lots of money to hear.

And I think the new title is just swell.

Are we on camera now? Is that it over there? You're Allan Funt, aren't you?

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

INTERMISSION TIME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djP8zIwCp3I&feature=related

Can anyone tell us who the piano player is?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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INTERMISSION TIME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djP8zIwCp3I&feature=related

Can anyone tell us who the piano player is?

Andrew Gold would be my guess.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

Yes. Long intermission, huh?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Quote:

Quote:
Hi, John, how are you?

Supping my first Newcastle Brown of the evening, JJ.

It's hard to get Nukey Brown out here, but I do have some Graham-somethingorother Gamekeeper Cabernet that is pretty good in my glass.

I think these guys need to go listen to "Chet Atkins, the RCA Years". As an assignment, then we can give them a quiz.

You two are just adorable.

My father-in-law has 6 Chet LPs, does that count for partial credit?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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You two are just adorable.

Thank you Axon. We are, aren't we. Lion lying down with the lamb and all that.


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My father-in-law has 6 Chet LPs, does that count for partial credit?

Only if you can post the track listings from memory. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Thank you Axon. We are, aren't we. Lion lying down with the lamb and all that.

True. Although it's anybody's guess who is the lion and who is the lamb.


Quote:
Only if you can post the track listings from memory. :-)

Heh. It's a miracle I can even count how many Chet LPs he has. I know that number thanks to a multi-day cataloging effort over last Christmas - and track listings sadly had to be excluded to get it done on time.

I can't audit the class, can I?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Don't you see the tiniest bit of irony


Uh, no.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

Ethan!

In Ethan's World if a guy can get your desired result by using a single speaker, why on Earth would you extrapolate that to the larger issue of people listening to (Gasp!) two speakers at a time, or differences between other pieces of gear?

Next thing we know, some guy who has vandalized sound in general with compression schemes will chime in about the validity of single speaker trials in a stereophonic hobby.

You objectivists are amazing: "Look! A scrap of validation! What should we do now?"

"Quick, generalize it!"

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

Perhaps it's too subtle to detect.

In terms of your speaker preference in that sighted session, it reeks of expectation bias to me. I believe Ethan would suggest you can't be certain until a proper unsighted test is performed with a group of people in a controlled environment.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Perhaps it's too subtle to detect.


Tell you what Michael. You live in NJ at least some of the time, yes? Let's get together in person and test what is and is not too subtle for either of us to hear. Then, after I have totally changed your mind on the entire subject of audio testing we'll post a report in this forum. Deal?

--Ethan

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

I was speaking about the irony being too subtle to detect. A joke.

I have no interest in the borderline between what is and isn't too subtle to hear when it comes to hi-fi but I sincerely appreciate the offer (no joke). I also am not a big fan of testing since my interest is solely in the enjoyment we get from listening to music on a hi-fi.

rmeyer52
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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

We're all Bozo's on this bus

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

But clowns are supposed to be entertaining

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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But clowns are supposed to be entertaining

I'm still enjoying the current title. Does that count?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Thank you Axon. We are, aren't we. Lion lying down with the lamb and all that.

True. Although it's anybody's guess who is the lion and who is the lamb.


Quote:
Only if you can post the track listings from memory. :-)

Heh. It's a miracle I can even count how many Chet LPs he has. I know that number thanks to a multi-day cataloging effort over last Christmas - and track listings sadly had to be excluded to get it done on time.

I can't audit the class, can I?

Lions are social cats.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Ethan!

In Ethan's World if a guy can get your desired result by using a single speaker, why on Earth would you extrapolate that to the larger issue of people listening to (Gasp!) two speakers at a time, or differences between other pieces of gear?


My goodness, I haven't seen a single person here suggest that you should have less than 2 speakers. Many of us have many more than 2, having digested the knowlege to come out of the original spatial audio testing by Steinburg and Snow, and then Fletcher and Snow, before 1940, showing the clear and obvious flaw in 2-channel systems. (But of course 2 are better than 1!)


Quote:

Next thing we know, some guy who has vandalized sound in general with compression schemes will chime in about the validity of single speaker trials in a stereophonic hobby.


Well, I presume that little bit of ad-hominem is directed to me.

Tell you what, don't lie about what I have said, OR what I have done. It shows that you lack ethics, morals, and that you are incapable of even a modicum of civil behavior.

Quote:

You objectivists are amazing: "Look! A scrap of validation! What should we do now?"

"Quick, generalize it!"

Well, we have at least a 'scrap', oh say 100+ years of work behind our stuff (go back to Helmholtz if not even farther back for the start).

Do you have any, beyond your lies about others' positions?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

Without referencing the rule book I'd say off the top of my head - absolutely (honk!).

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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I also am not a big fan of testing since my interest is solely in the enjoyment we get from listening to music on a hi-fi.

Testing is important to prevent enjoyment from listening to music on an overpriced hi-fi.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

I know the idea of overpriced is the cross you must bear AlexO but even people who spend more than you think they should enjoy their hi-fi. But if you want to start the crusade to prevent enjoyment through testing (a great t-shirt btw) be my guest.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Quote:
I also am not a big fan of testing since my interest is solely in the enjoyment we get from listening to music on a hi-fi.

Testing is important to prevent enjoyment from listening to music on an overpriced hi-fi.

I'm not sure that it's reasonable to protect people from "overpriced". That's a very subjective thing, "overpriced", and if somebody wants something with a good WAF, well, so be it.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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But if you want to start the crusade to prevent enjoyment through testing (a great t-shirt btw) be my guest.

Please explain to me how that is even possible. Nobody has suggested listening for enjoyment under subjective testing conditions.

The degree to which people are picking fights here makes it obvious that it's facts and science be darned, it's all about the politics.

Tsk.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

That was a joke - I know AlexO, we've met, had beers together and I was not picking a fight and I doubt AlexO would take it that way. Besides, if you met AlexO you'd realize how unwise that course of action would be.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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That was a joke - I know AlexO, we've met, had beers together and I was not picking a fight and I doubt AlexO would take it that way. Besides, if you met AlexO you'd realize how unwise that course of action would be.

Sorry.

I've had people say that to me seriously.

But yes, I do often listen with my eyes closed.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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We're all Bozo's on this bus

Oh no, the thread has been reduced to Firesign Theater quotes. Run, run for your lives!!!

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile'

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


Quote:

Quote:
We're all Bozo's on this bus

Oh no, the thread has been reduced to Firesign Theater quotes. Run, run for your lives!!!

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile'

"The future's comin', and there's no place to hide!"

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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The degree to which people are picking fights here makes it obvious that it's facts and science be darned, it's all about the politics.

Tsk.

"Fightin's outta style. Fun is where the fair's at!"

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Quote:

The degree to which people are picking fights here makes it obvious that it's facts and science be darned, it's all about the politics.

Tsk.

"Fightin's outta style. Fun is where the fair's at!"

Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers!!!!

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

Everything You Know is Wrong.

Cheers

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Everything You Know is Wrong.

Cheers

Well, I'd never say that, even quoting Firesign, but in your case ... Hmm.. Let me think ...

But I was waiting for the electician or someone like him

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Everything You Know is Wrong.

I know that.

Kal

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


Quote:

Quote:
Everything You Know is Wrong.

Cheers

Well, I'd never say that, even quoting Firesign, but in your case ... Hmm.. Let me think ...

But I was waiting for the electician or someone like him

While you're waiting, please inflate your shoes. And remember, there's monster money in every sweaty mattress when you trade in your used dreams at Unconscious Village.

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

There is no hell there is only France !

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


Quote:

Quote:
But if you want to start the crusade to prevent enjoyment through testing (a great t-shirt btw) be my guest.

Please explain to me how that is even possible. Nobody has suggested listening for enjoyment under subjective testing conditions.

The degree to which people are picking fights here makes it obvious that it's facts and science be darned, it's all about the politics.

Tsk.

Maybe you could bless us with some remediation.

What did Sean's blog tell you about the hobby?

How does it apply to your practice of high fidelity?

Lamont Sanford
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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

We love dodgeball. I'm lost in the shuffle. Which side I'm on again?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty

No problem.

If you've had people seriously say to you prevent enjoyment through testing would I be correct in assuming you are also involved in research relating to early pregnancy detection?

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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Quote:

Quote:
Who coined the phrase, "music soothes the savage beast"?

I believe it was "savage breast" - I've met a few of _those_ in my time - and it was Shakespeare.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Hi, John, how are you?

I think some of the people here need to go listen to some music, eh?

Sorry JA. Everybody thinks old Will said it but it ain't so.
The phrase was coined by William Congreve, in The mourning bride, 1697:
Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast. Refers specifically to women!

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Re: The Dishonesty of Dishonesty


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No problem.

If you've had people seriously say to you prevent enjoyment through testing would I be correct in assuming you are also involved in research relating to early pregnancy detection?

No.

Lamont Sanford
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Animal Mother

You a stereophile?

I'm a music sound analyzer.

Oh yeah, you listen to much music?

Well, I've seen some on TV.

Talk the talk. Do you walk the walk.

Now may you may not believe this but jj is one of the greatest listeners under stress. All he needs is somebody throwing music at him at the rest of life....

Watch it now watch it now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBSGEzpw-8&NR=1

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