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CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Yupper, I can't hear details, cus' of the line cord. Hmmmm, somehow Homie don't think so. But if i DO hear details, and I ain't using magic line cords, just some "regular" line cords (they is 14ga actually on teh amps) that would mean, line cords only need to be the proper guage for teh current needed for the amp/pre etc. Matter o' fact, I hear Whispers all teh time. I recently updated my wall outlets added 2 more 15A ckts to power up the amps, nice, Leviton residential grade, about $3-$4 box of ten....a nice Hubbell 2 gang wall cover, that had to be like $1.29 Some nice NM 14Ga...all teh way back to a nice GE non audio grade panel and breaker. Running a 20A, is actually kinda dumb, since most power cords in teh system are 16 gauage, for all teh smaller items, only the amps have 14Ga. So fusing at 20 A is not very protective, thus i kept the outlets at 15A. It works. Why would have an IEC type line cord be better, it's yet another connection point, hard wired 14 gauge and 16ga is actually a more secure connection for all the stuff. My computer has removable cords, should I up grade them to magic wires, how will it make teh computer do anything any different, if it affects teh audio, surely the improvved line cords on a computer and monitor would make them better? I bet not.....how do teh electrons know when to be better when in a stereo, not in a computer? If teh line cord is improving something, besides a very good imagination.

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

If you didn't know it was a Carda GOLDEN REFERNCE, betcha wouldn't have heard any difference....They sure do have some full page colorful ads of their magic golden rule nonsense, this little wire wrapped with this other golden piece of magic....very imaginitive minds creating yet another piece of wire magic, but AQ says it takes a battery, not a village...72V and now it sounds better, with an LED of course!!! think about how absurd it is, really, think of how many more CD's or LP's ya could buy, with teh money wasted on magic wires.

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

"Yupper, I can't hear details, cus' of the line cord. Hmmmm, somehow Homie don't think so."

>>Ahhhh, now don't misquote me DUP. Look at the post again DUP.

"Years ago I got to hear a system in which some whispering in the left channel could not be heard. Yet in another system one could easily hear the whispering. In the same room by the way."

>>I said system, not power cord. But cords do make a definite difference in the sound.

>>The rest of your post is not worth commenting about. But continue on, please, cause you are hurting your own cause.

Shadorne
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Commsysman,


Quote:
The kind of simple impedance mismatches you refer to are almost never present in real-world situations with stereo equipment and I have never known them to produce any problems that would not be essentially independent of cable changes.

Are you really unaware of how a typical tube amplifier (usually with high output impedance) functions when coupled to a low impedance load such as speakers and speaker cables? Or are you jesting?

It is a long time since I designed, built and repaired amplifiers but I still remember basic electronic theory; changing one appropriately specified wire for another does not make an audible difference in well designed systems. Wiring is important to connect elements but wires are not included in typical lumped-element circuit analysis for the simple reason that they can be "ignored" at low frequencies, such as in audio applications. (Here "ignored" means they make negligible difference as far as electrical engineers are concerned)

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Green marker pens used to make a difference on Cd's too. That fad is over. Lately Tara says vacuum makes an audible difference in a piece of wire, then they also sell ya one in air, both are just great, depending on your level of gullibility. T seems to decide what is a vacuum and what isn't. I'm sure they have a "white paper" all about their science and monthly breakthroughs in sound reproduction. But then AQ did with hanging a battery on theirs!!!!! The battery is charged to the highest level of gullibilty, looks like 72V is as high as it gets? So that would mean my AC line cord is "biased" at 124V? Should sound even better? And to think Bell Labs and Fletcher Munson, and other aduio pioneers in the basic science of sound, never realized some of this in teh early years of audio. Just think how advanced the audio stuff would be if they only knew how the wires mattered so much. Yet their concepts still hold true to this day. Wires have only seemed to matter in about the last 10 years or so, as wire gurus or ad men developed their ideas. Snakes, rivers, mountain ranges, air, vacuum, round, oval, flat, cellophane, thich thin, pick a science, pick a wire, they all solve a problem or thing that doesn't exist!! How come teh early recordings from say the Beatles now out on DVD-A sound great, think how much better it woulda' been if they only had some magic wires in the studios, like the ad men are now trying to convince the wire buying people, that now studios have discovered the sound of the latest magic wire.....if it only needed better wire, why did they come up with DSD, and better FORMATS to record in? When it was teh wire that was holding them back!!!

JoeE SP9
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Do you ever have anything to say other than ragging on wires and cables and shilling for AVA? It gets tiresome seeing the same words from you all the time. Give it up. You are in a very small minority (on this site) with your attitude about wire and cable. Frankly, your single minded agenda to re-educate everyone else is BOORING. We don't agree with you. So give it a rest, please!

tomjtx
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

I don't get tired of DUP and he has a right to post as much as he wants.
Simply put him on ignore if you don't want to read his posts.

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Nope. I like Tabasco sauce too? Ever try the Habernero version, it's as good as AVA is at making amps, in the sauce version. Used it to clean off a CD, found Habernero DOES make it sound better. Try it, don't say you can't hear teh improvemnt, before you try it. And if you don't hear an improvment, you know the drill, you don't have a reaveling enough system, or you just don't want to hear the Habernero Sound improvements. Keep an open mind and keep your fingers out of your nose and eyes, after touching the bottle. Yeooooowwwweeee Los' Lonely boys playing and some tabasco sauce on the plate....

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Once you go ignore, you know you are gonna take a peak every once in a while, wanna bet? come on, you know you will.

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

"changing one appropriately specified wire for another does not make an audible difference in well designed systems."

You want to fill us in on what makes, or is, a well designed power supply? Please be specific as anyone can make a general term.

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Checkout all the properly designed power supplies. www.avahifi.com Maybe that's why wires have no soudn here, my apms and pre amps are properly designed, without the designer magic idioticincrises. I guess when ya have good designed stuff ya can use mortal priced pieces of wires, like teh stuff from www.stellarlabs.com throguh MCM or STUFF from, www.partsexpress.com like some generic speaker wires. Using the designer Dayton brand of wires from Parts Express, how uncooth is that? Cus my pre amp has lotsa drive current to drive any piece of wire, no matter what it's ILR spec is, amp outputs have plenty of current capacity, and well made output ckts that don't need magic wires to filter garbage in the output created by lousy output ckts. Nor are they miswired like some of them $45K CD players or under performing like those grossly expensive yet not capable of meeting published specs amplifier that was still plenty powerful, who cares if it's missing about 400W from it's advertised specs!!! Jeeeeeeeez, what's a few hundred watts off, when you only spend thousands of dollars or a product!!! AVA stuff doesn't seem to have that idiosyncrosys, like under performing and over priced. Ooops, shilling for teh good stuff, sorry. The not meeting specs even follows magic wires, mislableing seems to be a wire induced problem with one company.....don't have that issue with Dayton or Stellarlabs brands or MCM generic, lables are correct, they ain't trying to inflate your egos, with claims of a vac path cus air distorts, then next month they advertise an air insulated wire, cus fiber and plastic distort. Then it'll be back to 72V cus no volts distorts...who actually falls for this nonsense?

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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...


Quote:
Checkout all the properly designed power supplies. www.avahifi.com

Then why does Frank Van Alstine prefer Kimber interconnects and cables in his own reference system? He can hear the improvement on his own equipment and admitted it. (See his website for his past newsletters detailing his cable challenge.)

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

READ it completly...not just pull out sections, he even thinks it may be just subliminal suggestions, KNOWING he changed the wires!!! And did it get changed with teh same GAUGE of wire, I don't recall if that was mentioned. Crankin it using 18 gauge and going to 12Ga could make a difference, with low impedance speakers, not magic just current through a wire science

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Hey DUP,

"Our engineering staff is continually busy developing new designs and improving existing designs in our attempt to bring you the very best new audio equipment in every price range."

Why the need to upgrade and so many models of both amplifiers and preamplifiers? I would have thought he would have gotten it right 30 years ago?

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

And yes, in response to all my supporters and even detractors, I am here to announce the formation of an exploritory commision, so that I may decide to run, and run and run, far far away.... How many of them extremely pricey wires from such respectible names like Tara, Shunyata, Harmonix,JPS,AQ,etc etc, count the wire brands in on each issue!!! ARE RoHS compliant? Lead, it does a body good, makes Superman not be able to see your underwear!!!

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

"not magic just current through a wire science "

Do you know how current through a wire works? Obviously not.

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Call me Sgt' Schultz, i know nooothing. Got my bosses fooled though, they keep paying me for my lack of no knowledge in things with wires and electrical things. 220 221 whatever, right?

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Slick, sneaky attempt to dodge the question DUP? You going to answer the question or dodge it again. Do you know how current "travels" through a wire.

By the way, it doesn't take any knowledge to do wiring. Just don't get shocked. But that is a far cry from knowing how electricity works.

I see you also dodged the question of why so many models of amps and preamps are produced by your friend. They all sound the same, right?

tomjtx
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

If we didn't have DUP wouldn't it get kind of boring?

And that's the best defense of DUP yet..........................IMHO of course :-)

Yiangos
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Actually this is what i've been trying to tell everyone for months now.

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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...


Quote:
Hey DUP,

"Our engineering staff is continually busy developing new designs and improving existing designs in our attempt to bring you the very best new audio equipment in every price range."

Why the need to upgrade and so many models of both amplifiers and preamplifiers? I would have thought he would have gotten it right 30 years ago?


Is this really such a difficult question to answer or understand for oneself why manufacturers of just about anything come out with products that do the same thing in different ways?
If you don't refresh your product line, it becomes stagnant in the public's eye. Sales are affected. Components which used to be in large supply no longer are or are replaced by other components that do the same thing for less, or in a smaller space, or combine multiple features in one package. Maybe additional functionality is added to take advantage of new technology. Witness for example what DAC's can do today with what they could do at their inception.

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

What question? The fact that things get improved over the years? Is that a question or a statement? But with wire makers every month they have a BREAKTRHOUGH, which is what? What question? Is demagnetizing PLASTIC a "breakthrough" improvment or something else? Now what's the question?

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Available componets used in products get better and smaller and cheaper. The philosophy of making stuff based on reality prices and reality science has not changed. If you think a piece of wire that can sell for thou$and$, and is based on reality. There must be this world and Bizzaro world. Looks like Hafler designs did solve a lot 30 years ago, since all it takes is reasonable rebuild, with newer components, which are faster, more linear and it's brought into the 21st century. And knocks the socks off things costings ten times more. Reality designs, based on reality engineering. What a concept! High performance, superb reliability (never had an AVA failure EVER) If a $45K Cd only player is your reality, great. Which came from the factory miswired!!!! ($45K, QC, I'm sure they are building 100's a day) Musta missed it, riiiight) If a grossly priced amp that doesn't meet published specs is also in your reality, great. $100K TT which is now replaced by a $300K platter with motor is your reality groovey. It looks now that the audio business is just going to see how far they (marketeers) can push the absurdity. It really does nothing to improve the realm of real audio reporduction.

tomjtx
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Bravo, DUP,

That is one of the sanest things I have ever read on an audiophile forum.

You just got a standing ovation from me :-)

martin_n
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

And the sound just gets better!
Just like when designs using tubes -> evolved into bipolar transistors -> evolved into MOSFETS....!

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Remember, all parts sound the same and the specs are so good, so all it takes is one design. Oh, you mean that the cheaper $200 - 500 amps and other components are perfect and so in order to compete, one must redesign. Or do you mean parts are sounding better, so 'the law of physics', by your account, has been broken?

But I don't see the prices coming down with the new designs fo your friend. So what gives DUP? Just more features? What are they?

Martin, if your scenario is correct, why is it that even moderately priced tube equipment sounds better than SS? Cleaner, clearer, more natural sounding? Most SS components I have heard sound cloudy, grungy.

By the way, mosfets have real problems with junction capacitance change with fluxuating drain/source voltages. The junction capacitances of output fets have been measured as high as .0015uf (1500pf). And the ESR is moderate to high discharging through silicon, the semiconductor material. Smaller fets also have high, fluxuating junction capacitance multiplied by the miller effect.

Try sticking even a good .001uf (1000pf) capacitor across the output of a source and see what happens.

martin_n
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Hello 301

Quote:

Martin, if your scenario is correct, why is it that even moderately priced tube equipment sounds better than SS?


Indeed! You may well prefer the sound of valve designed equipment, as many others do. I am one of a minority that prefer SS. I reckon I

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

"1. You are correct in that low frequency power MOSFETs do exhibit junction capacitances in the order of 2(ish) nF. But so what?

>>Actually, that is medium size FETs in the order of 2-6 amps or so (my mistake). Not the larger ones. That is hundreds of times higher than tubes. So how does one handle that?? (I will reply to your answer in more detail.)

BUT the big problem is the wildly changing capacitance as the drain voltage varies (up to a certain voltage, Harris states 25 volts). As the music plays and the signal is changing, the junction capacitances vary wildly. Not very good.

"2. The ESR (drain to source) resistance is actually very very low when compared with valves (0.1ohm and less) which is one of the reasons they are chosen over valves."

>>That is only when fully on, as in switching applications, not in the linear region used in audio applications. There, the resistance is in the same order of pentode tubes, an order higher than triodes.

>>But I was also refering to the silicon between the junctions and the leads. Valves have much much lower ESR in this area and much lower DA as well. Good external capacitors also have less than the silicon.

"3. Both transistors and FETS exhibit a high frequency gain roll off due to the miller effect. Firstly, this is really only considered when a device is used in a common emitter / source mode and not in common collector / drain mode, which is the case of most O/P drivers. Secondly, today the small signal FET

bjh
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...


Quote:
And the sound just gets better!
Just like when designs using tubes -> evolved into bipolar transistors -> evolved into MOSFETS....!

And don't forget the biggest step in the chain, i.e. when things got *really* good, i.e:

... evolved into MOSFETS -> evolved (back) into tubes.

LOL

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Mosfets are the way to go. They have evolved and improved. Still using 1960's NOS 12Ax7? Yeah, they did it best, nothings improved since then. How's that 1961 Impala SS, nothings improved since then right? Those AR3a's nothing can top them, after 40 years. Nostaglia is only worth so much. Those rotary dial phones, sounded so much better than touch tone, let's go back to rotary, and relay based switching center. No even better, let's have real operators to direct the calls, it sounded so much better...no it didn't and it didn't work better. Just cus' it's old don't mean it is better. MOST thing new are better, that's how things progress and improve. But somehow Audio is always outside the realm of anything else, why is that?

martin_n
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

In defense of MOSFETs and transistors

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

>>We are crossing paths. You are mainly concerned with the output stage while I also include the previous stages.

"The capacitance of a MOSFET does indeed vary, as does its gain with drain current But again I would say

Monty
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

We're not gonna have a pop quiz on this tomorrow are we? I sure hope this isn't on the test. It is? Oh crap!

ethanwiner
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Martin,

> I am one of a minority that prefer SS. <

LOL, the real minority is toob lovers by at least 1,000 to 1 if not 10,000 to 1. And that's among consumers. I'm sure the disparity is even larger among working audio professionals.

--Ethan

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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...


Quote:
Martin,

> I am one of a minority that prefer SS. <

LOL, the real minority is toob lovers by at least 1,000 to 1 if not 10,000 to 1. And that's among consumers. I'm sure the disparity is even larger among working audio professionals.

--Ethan

I'd venture to frame this as "the real minority" are the poeple who actually give a shit about the quality of their fidelity.

It's amazing that this realtivel miniscule hobby full of audio navel gazers finds ways to splinter itself into anything deemed a "minority" or "majority." We're all the minority, dammit!

So, I'll leave the vast 1000:1 majority to their boxes of wine and go home and drink a wee dram of mature Bordeaux.

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Right on Buddah.

The propaganda all started back in the 60s with the SS marketeers (how about those snake oil marketeers) who scammed the public into believing SS sounded better because a few specs said so. We heard what those amps sounded like, crap. Oh, many liked the fat bass no matter how inaccurate it was.

And we all remember when the first CDs players and CDs came out, how we were led to believe they sounded so
good.

Why? Cause they didn't have pops and crackles, and were easy to use. Most of the public didn't care, they just wanted ease of use and a cheap price.

I have met some of the "audio professionals" and they didn't have a clue how a circuit works. In fact, all one has to do is to be able to turn knobs on the console and be led by the "professional magazines" pushing product. Now that is professionalism at its finest.

One does not even have to do any in depth studying into design theory, not have any degrees, to be a recording "professional engineer". But we most definitely should look towards them for guidance.

Yiangos
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

When cd came out,manufacturers knew it was an inferior format.Yet,it had manu advantages.Compacteness,portability,
a certain audio quality that would not deteriorate with bad handling or continus playing not to mention a new way to sell ppl the same music all over again. Same thing,in a way,
is happening today with class d amps.They know it is inferior sounding,yet,for the sake of compactness,cool running (home theater?) and price,they got them out !
Now,think about decades ago,when tubes ruled the world.
The transistor was space age technology,much more powerful,
much more cooler to run,compact etc etc Manufacturers have 2 goals.To satisfy us,customers and to become wealthier.
Usually they achive both goals but if they have to pick one
quess which one would be !

martin_n
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Hi 301
When you say

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Actually to be called an ENGINEER, there certainly better be credentials and degrees attached, cus many states have laws regarding teh use of the term ENGINEER, Texas for one. You can't arbitrarly assingn yourself the title engineer, if you don't the paperwork from aschool etc that you do in fact have an engineering cert. Try it, it's like $1,000/day fine if they decide to enforce the law. Same with audio "pro" you better have the paperwork. If you attach engineer to your name PE etc. Most do. Full Sail is supposed to be one of the best in schools for such stuff.

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

When Philips introduced the Cd in like 1982, they knew it was inferior? Huh, it was another Philips inovative breakthrough. Just like their inovative laserdisc. It was the first commerically availabe laser optic recording format....it led to CD-R RW, DVD DVD-R DVD-RW, DSD of course things improve over time, it always gets better cheaper smaller. Why is convience such a disgusting thing when it comes to audio reproduction? Yeah, dust off the record player jump up every 20 minutes or so to flip the LP....nothing like loading up the player with 5 or 6 discs and just listen!!! WOW, that's not how it's done, it can only sound right if it has pain associated with it? The changer versus single play myth too is another bunch of nonsense. Like the laser pickup knows where the disc sitting above it got there...... I'm sure some old cranks think rotary dial phones are better...Can't have best soudn without lotsa glowing filaments to heat the room and waste watts. Those mechanical tube driven switching computers where so great!!! Those telephone relay swithcers driven by tubes where so fine..nothing liek a room full of relays and tubes in a giant building to make a phone call, let's go back to that. Wonder which company is gonna come out with a tube Ipod interface to make teh iPOD sound analog? You wear teh tube unit on your belt, and it also is a seat warmer in teh winter

Yiangos
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

True,we don't want to wast watts,especially if we have ONLY 4800 ! lol
By "inferior",i meant sonically but of course,how can i be sure if those engineers were deaf or not.

CECE
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

This ain't no CHORD or whatever that defective amp was that was rated at one thing and delivered about 500W less under test....yeah, WATTS 500 give or take...There's a good possibility that the AVA P500 OMEGASTAR EX are actually even more but they where conservativly rated ....one difference between spending what $27K and get less and spend a few K and get more....hmmmm, which do YOU want

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

"Actually to be called an ENGINEER, there certainly better be credentials and degrees attached, cus many states have laws regarding teh use of the term ENGINEER, Texas for one."

>>Well you better check again in other states. Look no further than ethan winer as an example, DUP. Ask him if he has an engineering degree, or any degree.

Yiangos
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

If you can't appreciate what a good analoque source can do,I
wonder how on earth do you hear differences between the Whispers and a $500 pair of loudspeakers and don't tell me they move air.You could have done the same with a boombox and a fan.

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

"What you

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

Hi DUP,

I see you mentioned one example. How many others are not meeting specs? All, or are you inflating the situation to take advantage?

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

>>I notice in all your ramblings that you forgot one thing DUP. The sound quality.


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When Philips introduced the Cd in like 1982, they knew it was inferior? Huh, it was another Philips inovative breakthrough. Just like their inovative laserdisc. It was the first commerically availabe laser optic recording format....it led to CD-R RW, DVD DVD-R DVD-RW, DSD of course things improve over time, it always gets better cheaper smaller. Why is convience such a disgusting thing when it comes to audio reproduction? Yeah, dust off the record player jump up every 20 minutes or so to flip the LP....nothing like loading up the player with 5 or 6 discs and just listen!!! WOW, that's not how it's done, it can only sound right if it has pain associated with it? The changer versus single play myth too is another bunch of nonsense. Like the laser pickup knows where the disc sitting above it got there...... I'm sure some old cranks think rotary dial phones are better...Can't have best soudn without lotsa glowing filaments to heat the room and waste watts. Those mechanical tube driven switching computers where so great!!! Those telephone relay swithcers driven by tubes where so fine..nothing liek a room full of relays and tubes in a giant building to make a phone call, let's go back to that. Wonder which company is gonna come out with a tube Ipod interface to make teh iPOD sound analog? You wear teh tube unit on your belt, and it also is a seat warmer in teh winter

martin_n
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...


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>>Well here is the info which you laughed off

Editor
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...


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Quote:

However, the consensus is that feedback damages the signal more than improves it


In short negative feedback reduces distortion, reduces O/P impedance, reduces gain variation

tandy
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Re: In defense of DUP and other ramblings...

I won't comment on your last post, not going to waste my time agruing except for one point.

I own a fairly new SS amp and it has an oscillation that gradually diminishes up to 6 watts output. I have never had a tube amp that oscillated in decades. So your guess work and/or scare tatics of how unstable a tube amp is and how stable a SS amp is utter nonsense and lack of knowledge about tubes.

If you had ever really worked with tubes in audio, you would know this. All one needs is very very simple precautions which just about everyone tube amp I have seen uses. So I really don't know where you come up with your opinion. SS also uses techniques to squash instability problems as well. So it isn't unique to tubes.

You really need to read much of the book.
Here is a link where you can download the book. 75.2mb download though.

http://www.bitenova.nl/tt/wpw3s

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