The Daniel Hertz M1

The Daniel Hertz M1 ($100,000/pair), designed by Mark Levinson (the man), uses a high-frequency horn, a 12” mid-woofer, and an 18” woofer. The stainless steel frame surrounding the horn is said to optimize waveform termination and imaging quality, while those frames surrounding the woofers are used to increase the rigidity of the drivers. The speaker is divided internally into two sections: One section for the horn and 12” driver, damped using sheep’s wool for its high mass and absorptive properties, and one section with two tuned ports for the 18” driver.

As seen here, the M1 is designed to be powered by four Telikos M5 Mono Reference amplifiers ($8000 each): Each channel uses one M5 switched to frequencies above 80Hz and one M5 switched to frequencies below 80Hz. Also in the system was a Telikos M6 preamp ($10,000). The source was a $400 laptop running WAV files from iTunes.

Interesting story: Daniel Hertz (the company) takes its name from the two sides of Mark Levinson’s family. Daniel Levinson was Mark’s father, while Heinrich Hertz (1857-1894), a German physicist and the first to demonstrate the existence of electromagnetic waves, was Mark’s great uncle on his mother’s side.

COMMENTS
tmsorosk's picture

Not one word about what they sound like ?

soulful.terrain's picture

I'll give you one word.

..Beautiful

I came back to this room 5 times before the day was through.

Steve Eddy's picture

The only thing the $100,000 price tag tells me is how much utter contempt Levinson continues to have for his customers. [text deleted by John Atkinson]

tmsorosk's picture

Mark has no doubt built these for a select group , contempt has nothing to do with it . And he is still one of the classiest guys in the business .

Steve Eddy's picture

Selling a $200 retail amplifier for $2,000 is nothing but contempt.

Slapping a few pro drivers in a conventional ported enclosure and asking $100,000 for a pair is nothing but contempt.

If that's what you consider "classy," then I pity you.

se

soulful.terrain's picture

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atlaudio's picture

Wow Steve, you think Mark has contempt ?? lol... I guess you didnt read your own comment. Did you hrear about the $150K tube amp at the same show.. or the $125K turntable ?? Burmester sells $70K monoblocks and you need 4 of them to bi-amp... so wake up, Daniel Hertz monos are only $8K.
The Daniel Hertz system did nothing but stun people with its unmatched dymamics and finesse. I sat with Fremer for an hour in this room while we played recording after recording from Michaels private stash of jaw dropping recordings. Mark is not only classy, but he is an amazing individual with a huge heart. This system represents 40 years of being a recording engineer, mastering engineer, professional musician, and audio designer. It is Marks ultimate statement in no compromise audio design, and plenty of us consider it a sheer bargain compared to the other audio gear out there. This system comes from the professional mastering realm and is not just another high end audio system.
The speakers are made in the hundred year old Petrov piano factory in Prague by skilled artisans using hand selected hardwoods in the traditional instrument grade way..not an MDF box sprayed with automotive paint.
I have NEVER heard a HE audio system do what the Daniel Hertz system did at AXPONA...It was simply marvelous.

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Wow Steve, you think Mark has contempt ?? lol... I guess you didnt read your own comment. Did you hrear about the $150K tube amp at the same show.. or the $125K turntable ?? Burmester sells $70K monoblocks and you need 4 of them to bi-amp... so wake up, Daniel Hertz monos are only $8K.

So?

In case you missed it, I was specifically referring to the $100,000 speakers.

Quote:

The Daniel Hertz system did nothing but stun people with its unmatched dymamics and finesse.

Yes. Good quality pro drivers are pretty good at that, which is why I like them so much myself.

But again, so?

Quote:

This system represents 40 years of being a recording engineer, mastering engineer, professional musician, and audio designer.

You mean while he wasn't busy re-badging cheap Chinese-made gear and selling it here for ten times its retail price?

Quote:

This system comes from the professional mastering realm and is not just another high end audio system.

So?

Quote:

The speakers are made in the hundred year old Petrov piano factory in Prague by skilled artisans using hand selected hardwoods in the traditional instrument grade way..not an MDF box sprayed with automotive paint.

So?

They're fucking BOXES for crying out loud.

You can buy an entire Petrof master grand piano retail for less than half what he's asking for these speakers. Are you saying there's as much going into these speakers as an entire grand piano?

Quote:

I have NEVER heard a HE audio system do what the Daniel Hertz system did at AXPONA...

That's because most high end speakers use heavy, inefficient plastic drivers instead of professional drivers using paper cones, compression drivers and horns.

se

Daniel Hertz is new Mark Levinson Made In China CONFIRMED's picture

Hey atlaudio: Halt Audio + your blabla on ML... Talk about some subjects you master pls. 

atlaudio's picture

Maybe the contempt you speak of is similar to selling copper litz wire in cotton jacket with paper barreled gold plated BRASS connectors for $185 a foot ???..lol..

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Maybe the contempt you speak of is similar to selling copper litz wire in cotton jacket with paper barreled gold plated BRASS connectors for $185 a foot ???..lol..

Not at all.

First, your math is wrong. A 0.5 meter set of cables is made up of two cables totaling 3.28 feet, not 1.64 feet.

Second, I'm not selling footage. I'm selling complete sets of cables. Actual footage is rather inexpensive, i.e. only $25 difference between a 0.5 meter cable and a 1 meter cable.

Third, I'm not simply pulling cable off a spool, cutting it to length and terminating it. The litz wire doesn't get along with braiding machines. Even when simply trying to braid over it, the litz wire gets mangled.

So it has to be made by hand, from shirring the cotton braid over the wire to the final four strand braiding process. That adds a considerable amount of labor.

Fourth, nothing in the cables or packaging is made in China. Everything is made here in the US with the exception of the banana plugs which are machined in India and plated in the UK, and the paper used for the package label which is made in a 400 year old mill in Germany.

And oh yeah, those paper/phenolic barrels are custom made for me by a master machinist and metal worker with over 30 years of experience and whose career began at NASA's Ames Research Center (said sarcastically though absolutely true).

se

atlaudio's picture

Oh .. nice to meet you Mr. glass half empty audio guy.

Petrov Concert Grands are $125K

Next door to this room was YG Acoustics with $119K "f-ing boxes".

Wilson Audio Alexandrias are $148K "f-ing boxes"

Fremers turntable costs more than the Daniel Hertz FULL SYSTEM.

Daniel Hertz electronics are SWISS made.

Red Rose Music rebranded Chinese gear that had Marks tuning inside and did $10M the first year selling out of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in Manhattan. I call that smart business. Perhaps he should have stayed at home selling copper wire with "shirred cotton" and paper barrels. Red Rose Music equipment is rarely on the second hand market because it is still in use with the original buyers.

Obviously you dont get the Daniel Hertz sector of the market. Which is fine...
We're happy you figured out how to spin the copper wire thing into $90 a foot completed half meter product. You are doing the same exact thing in a much smaller scale. Your profit is probably higher percentage-wise anyways.. good for you... keep your market..

To say you hope another person or "son of a bitch" dies broke and living in the streets begging for money
shows exactly how you feel about other human beings and thus transcends into every fiber of your self. You are dark and pitiful.
May you one day find peace.

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Petrov Concert Grands are $125K

So?

Their P III grand piano retails for $46,000. Are you saying there's more to a couple of speaker boxes than an entire grand piano?

And it's Petrof, not Petrov.

Quote:

Next door to this room was YG Acoustics with $119K "f-ing boxes".

So?

Quote:

Wilson Audio Alexandrias are $148K "f-ing boxes"

So?

Quote:

Fremers turntable costs more than the Daniel Hertz FULL SYSTEM.

So?

Quote:

Daniel Hertz electronics are SWISS made.

So?

You say these things as if they have some sort of inherent meaning as it relates to these $100,000 speakers.

They don't. They're just meaningless obfuscations.

Quote:

Red Rose Music rebranded Chinese gear that had Marks tuning inside...

Yes, that was the claim made when he got busted. But there's never been one shred of evidence to support it. Unless Mark's "tuning" was simply adding an IEC connector to the amp.

Quote:

...and did $10M the first year selling out of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in Manhattan. I call that smart business.

Sure, if you're a sociopath.

Quote:

Perhaps he should have stayed at home selling copper wire with "shirred cotton" and paper barrels. Red Rose Music equipment is rarely on the second hand market because it is still in use with the original buyers.

Yeah, because who would want to admit in public that they bought a $200 amp for $2,000?

Quote:

We're happy you figured out how to spin the copper wire thing into $90 a foot completed half meter product. You are doing the same exact thing in a much smaller scale. Your profit is probably higher percentage-wise anyways.. good for you... keep your market..

We?

What, are you Borg?

Quote:

To say you hope another person or "son of a bitch" dies broke and living in the streets begging for money
shows exactly how you feel about other human beings and thus transcends into every fiber of your self.

No, that's not how I feel about every other human being. Only how I feel about those who are sociopaths that have nothing but contempt for those they effectively bilk money from.

se

Nightspore68's picture

I wish I had seen this room. I didn't know it was a Levinson-related product until after I got home.

tmsorosk's picture

atlaudio , you mean the angry uncouth person above works in the industry and sells cables ?

atlaudio's picture

Everybody in this industry makes profit, its nothing new. I guess there are a few people who live through these forums and the guy above seems to be one of them. Plenty of people have jealousy for someone who does something in this industry they can not and will never do.
I know Mark, this guy does not. Mark is a great person as anyone who knows him can attest. People who hate him just because he is at the top of this game are simply sad individuals. This armchair warrior above would give his left foot to be more successful at "bilking" people than copper litz with cotton for hundreds of dollars instead of loudspeakers for hundreds of thousands.. His "bilk" is weak. Marks is strong. So he's jealous, opinionated, and angry, and spouts off at the mouth like a little kid with a tantrum because he cant do what the big boys do. I dont blame him. It sucks to have unfulfilled aspirations.
Evidently he has been banned from other forums for being juvenile. Its obvious why.
The M1 system is already in a mastering studio in NYC, and an Atlanta mastering studio was asking for one after listening at the show. These are the most picky ears in the industry. Most likely the M7 will be more widespread among audiophiles due to the low $25K per pair price.. its the same as the M1 without the 18" sub.

By the way, Mark is re-mastering a limited edition series of long lost opera music from archival sources in Italy to save the famous La Fenice opera house in Venice. All the proceeds go to La Fenice for much needed upkeep they do not have the money for.

And, yes.... we are the Borg.. We see beyond the human visual spectrum and resistance is futile...

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Everybody in this industry makes profit, its nothing new.

Of course not.

But there's a difference between making a reasonable profit and pricing something to the point that it can only be borne out of a certain contempt for those who would pay that price.

Quote:

Plenty of people have jealousy for someone who does something in this industry they can not and will never do.

There's no jealousy involved at all with fact that I could never nor would I ever buy $200 retail amplifiers from China, re-badge them, and sell them here for $2,000.

Quote:

It sucks to have unfulfilled aspirations.

Naaah. I'm quite content being humble.

Quote:

Evidently he has been banned from other forums for being juvenile.

No. I've been banned from other forums because there are those who are intolerant of views and opinions that may be contrary to their own.

Quote:

The M1 system is already in a mastering studio in NYC, and an Atlanta mastering studio was asking for one after listening at the show.

So?

Quote:

These are the most picky ears in the industry.

What's that supposed to mean?

What exactly is the metric for "picky ears" so that others may judge just how picky theirs are? What, because they bought an M1 system?

Quote:

Most likely the M7 will be more widespread among audiophiles due to the low $25K per pair price.. its the same as the M1 without the 18" sub.

So?

Quote:

By the way, Mark is re-mastering a limited edition series of long lost opera music from archival sources in Italy to save the famous La Fenice opera house in Venice. All the proceeds go to La Fenice for much needed upkeep they do not have the money for.

So?

se

soulful.terrain's picture

The envy of successful designers in the audio industry is not much different than jealous leftist/socialists that want to penalize successful business owners/employers with taxes, fines, or jail because of wealth envy. "they make too much money" is the mantra.

Mark Levinson took a gamble back in the 70's and it paid off. CONGRATULATIONS! He should enjoy all the fruits of his labors because he took the risk initially, and PROVIDED JOBS, Made a GREAT product, the audio public loved it, and he made a profit.

Question:

Has the audio industry benefitted more from Mr. Levinson's designs/ideas or would the industry been better off without Mr. Levinson's contributions?

The answer is easy. Just ask the thousands that have enjoyed Mr. Levinson's products over the years like myself. Not to mention the hundreds of jobs that Mr. Levinson has provided for people so they can feed thier families and prosper.

I wonder how many jobs the vitriolic poster above has provided?

Mark Evans

Heinrich Goldmund's picture

Jealous leftist Socialists? Giggle giggle. That's funny. So that's how you characterize someone who quite correctly characterizes grotesquely overpriced fugly-ass boom box speakers (complete with the chrome accent rings!) as exploitive of the customer? You don’t think $100K is a tad much for something a hobbyist could come up with for $5,000?

Oh yes, Mr. Levinson is a hero of the free market, for sure. And you are right. Ultra Expensive Audiophilia just wouldn’t be nearly so mature in its capacity for idiots who pay ten or twenty times too much for audio gear if it hadn’t been for him. Bravo, Sir, Bravo! Mr. Levinson is to be admired for tapping into the insecurities of rich guys who can drop 250K on a wristwatch. Brilliant, that.

Yes, Mark Levinson is a true economic dynamo, employing hundreds (dozens?) of people over the years, accelerating the velocity of money (in a couple of very small circles, anyway), facilitating prosperity in only the way that a John Galt can do, and single handedly advancing state of the art audio reproduction. We surely wouldn’t have the quality of overpriced audio gear if it wasn’t for geniuses like him. Too bad for the thousands of engineers and acoustics experts who toil in total obscurity who actually developed all the now germane technology that douches like Levinson mark up 20 times and sell to gullible rich dudes to serve their need for conspicuous consumption.

Anyone who has any in-depth knowledge of audio equipment technology knows that so much of high end audio is simply pre-existing technology put in fancy wrappings and promoted with pseudo scientific propaganda and sold for stupefying prices. Guys behind the likes of this Daniel Hertz boom box product are laughing all the way to the bank.

Glory be to free market capitalism! Indeed. More like, “Caveat emptor, bitches!”

Steve Eddy's picture

Question:

What kind of person takes a cheap, Chinese-made amplifier that sells retail for $200, slaps a different name on it and a $2,000 price tag?

se

soulful.terrain's picture

Heinrich:

From reading your post, the general overview reveals that you have contention toward wealthy people and thier choice of what to purchase for themselves.

Has it ever occurred to you that wealthy people may not be gullible, they may just really like the audio components in question for some reason or another.

Steve:
The same person that designs a Hyundai Sonata, builds it for $9,000, then turns around and sells it for $22,000.

Example:

If you really feel like Mr. Levinson should, as you say; " I hope the son of a bitch winds up broke and living on the streets begging for change." Then, for continuities sake, you should hope the same for politicians (liberals) that produce NOTHING, but still confiscate billions in taxes of dollars they piss down the drain on failed social programs.

But no one will touch that one. Seems that the vitriol is only reserved for the private businessman.

You see, the idea of the free-market is to build a product someone wants and turn a profit. If that product is cheap, and unreliable, then as a builder you lose. simple. This may or may not be the case with Red Rose Audio.

Point in fact: Nobody FORCES an individual to purchase uber expensive audio gear. It's a choice. No matter the quality. Doesn't some of the responsibility fall upon the consumer to make a wise decision? Educate themselves on the product? God forbid!

And if someone WILLINGLY lays down the hard coin for said gear, because they WANT it, well then, more power to them.

Mark Evans

Heinrich Goldmund's picture

Mr. Evans,

Wow, sure sounds like you got an axe to grind. This stuff must really hit close to home for you. Realizing you paid way too much for some of your audio gear, hmm?

I see you believe the real purveyors of value are businessmen and the great evil is taxes that go to pay for “failed social programs.” What, like Social Security? Doncha know that’s the most successful government program of all time? Clue for you: All those socialist programs are part of system of commons that are a huge improvement over the way you want things to work, which I’m assuming is modeled after governments in third world countries where they don’t “confiscate” the money from rich guys who buy overpriced audio crap from other rich guys whilst sipping fine wine and pontificating about how the etch of the violins is reduced on their pet recording due to the equipment’s use of FETs made by $20/hr line workers at National Semiconductor, engineered by guys making $60K/yr in a company that was an offshoot from the traitorous eight that left Fairchild after leaving Shockley.

But that had absolutely nothing to do with the federal government “confiscating” billions of dollars that were funneled into DOD spending because there was no civilian application for 20 years for that FET for your precious $50,000 Levinson power amp, did it? Oh, but that’s money well spent. Keeping the old spinster down the street from eating dogfood in her old age isn’t. You’re right! We should do away with all that government spending and let the free market reign! That model works so well in the dozens of third world crap puddles that I can name off the top of my head that prosper from unfettered capitalism.

You, sir, are an idiot. Go take an introductory sociology class from your local community college.

By the way, the margins on cars are way lower than what you claimed. And I think the average bear can also appreciate the hundreds of thousands of parts made from a very dense hierarchy of parts manufactures that go into a global car maker that then has to support the vehicle for decades. And the car maker IS the entity that went to all that trouble of designing and building the car, so maybe they should make money on it? Unlike me, if I go to Best Buy and pick up a $100 Blueray player, then stick a decal on it and sell it for $1000. All I’m doing there is helping fools part with their money. But according to you, I should be celebrated for doing so.

Which is precisely the point you aren’t getting about Mr. Levinson and his infamous Red Rose debacle.

Listen, dude. I’ve been inside all this expensive audio gear at some point. Some of it is pretty amazing, and given the tiny market, it has to be expensive if the maker is going to make a decent living at it. I get that. But most of it is just stupidly overpriced, and some of it is truly absurd. Much of that stuff preys on the ignorance and gullible insecurities of guys with way too much money and silly notions of how to spend it. Those guys aren’t buying that junk out of some refined appreciation of special qualities or otherwise unobtainable performance. They are just being taking advantage of.

Or do you think this never happens? And putting a few thousand dollars worth of pro drivers into a big box, adorning it with polished metal rings, and then asking $100,000.00 for them is about as perfect an example of this phenomena as there is.

Yours truly,

Heinrich

soulful.terrain's picture

Heinrich:

You think Social security was a great program?

ahem....There is no money in the ponzi scheme known as 'the social security trust fund"

The treasury's printing presses are keeping that failed program alive by accruing debt on future generations. Yeah right...great program.

Try again.

Furthermore, If you despise wealthy individuals and thier ability to afford expensive gear then thats your business. I just don't see the need to create a class division argument based on your hatred for the wealthy and thier enjoyment of high resolution audio.

Interesting to note that there were two men back in 1848 that felt the same way you do. They spoke of the Bourgeois and the Proletarian. Care to opine?

You sir, are a few synapses short of a coherent thought.

Seniors eating dog food, people dying in the streets, starvation, thirst, total pandemonium. BULLCRAP!

Yeah right, liberals come up with these wild, mindless, unfounded excuses to give government more power. You just have fallen prey to the progressive left thus, a drone.

Sincerely,
Mark Evans

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

The treasury's printing presses are keeping that failed program alive by accruing debt on future generations. Yeah right...great program.

And you tell Heinrich he's a few synapses short of a coherent thought?

The Social Security System hasn't accrued any debt on future generations.

The debt that has accrued on future generations has been from the federal government spending more than it takes in. And it finances that debt through the sale of treasury bills.

The debt is the same whether that debt is financed by China or the Social Security trust fund.

Now, you wouldn't say China or anyone else holding treasury bills is accruing a debt on future generations would you?

Perhaps you would. But it would be just as idiotic as saying the Social Security system is accruing a debt on future generations.

se

Steve Eddy's picture

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Heinrich Goldmund's picture

Mr. Evans,

I don’t “think” Social Security “was” a great program. It is a phenomenally successful program. It has done more good for people in this country than any private venture in this country’s history. By a very wide margin. It is currently fully funded beyond 2040 and very easy to keep in the black by a fair tax code. Which means “confiscating” money from guys like you who simply do not understand that paying your taxes are the dues that you owe for living in a civilized country that does not leave to chance what resources people have access to after working their entire lives to make this country the most productive on earth.

Ponzi scheme? Get that one from your right wing echo chamber, did you? Yes, because of the inflation there is just no way that it will ever work because current generations’ money will be worth less in the future, not to mention cost of living allowances. And based on your assertion of the treasury printing money to pay for it, you have left no doubt in my mind that you don’t understand anything of these matters beyond what Glen Beck has programmed you with. I wouldn’t even know where to begin to try to explain even the most basic concepts that your mental handicap impedes your understanding of. Such as the treasury doesn’t “print” money. Or God forbid, debt monetization or the difference between money and currency.

But oh goody, you offer to give me a history lesson! I want to thank you. Right out of the gate your free market drivel told me all I need to know about you. You saved me a lot of time. It should not surprise me that fuckwits like yourself can’t even broach the subject of what a boon it was to this country when the federal government became the number one advocate for science, technology and the welfare of its citizens. Confiscating your money, indeed. Please, move to Mexico already. We don't need you.

Of course you champion the merit of rich guys buying grossly overpriced consumer electronics. That’s a good cause. Even though that was never argued. Remember? The point was how should we regard a company that marks up to total absurdity a product that only functions to serve rich idiots’ need to consume conspicuously. Sorry you missed that.

Keep up the good fight!

Heinrich

soulful.terrain's picture

Heinrich:

fuckwit???

idiot??

you use some very nice expletives.

I'll take that as your concession verbage.

By the way, As an American, I would prefer Glenn Beck as opposed to Marx and Engels any day of the week.

Have a great day,
Mark

Heinrich Goldmund's picture

Mr. Evans,

You mean verbiage? Also, does that usually work for you, appointing yourself the victor of an argument when your opponent uses naughty words to describe you? I can only imagine that you must win arguments thusly very frequently. Fuckwit. See, you won again! DING! My argument has no merit because I called you a name. My, what a nifty way of responding when you can’t actually respond.

Also, did you suddenly lose your punctuation skills?

Oh, and by the way, as an American, I would prefer a Marxist donkey’s hee haw any day to the inscrutable dumbfuck (DING! You won again!) brain rot that flows from born-again-Mormon Glenn Beck. Who was recently disowned by non-batshit (DING!) crazy conservative icons like William Kristol.

I got a question for you, Mr. Free Marketeer: When new unknown small speaker companies selling comparably priced and better designs would get a foothold in dealers who carried Wilson Audio, Dave Wilson would find out, call the dealer and threaten to pull his line unless the dealer got rid of the challenger. Usually the dealer would comply with Wilson’s request. That’s not speculation, Mr. Free Market. That’s some actual industry dirty laundry I just gave you. Now, given that high end audio is so small a market, the new unknown guy trying to sell at or near Wilson’s price point almost always just falls by the wayside after a few years of running through life savings and searching for investors. With no distribution, Stereophile won't review him. With no reviews, no one will buy him. See how that works? If you’ve been around high end audio for a while, you may have even noticed this phenomena. Many in the industry praise Wilson for being such a great business man not knowing that he has routinely strong armed dealers to eliminate the competition.

Now, that’s the free market at work, genius. Free markets crush real competition. Plain and simple. With an example from your very own overpriced hobby.

Fuckwit.

Yours truly,

Heinrich

haroon's picture

To all but especially to soulful.terrain (Mark):

Kindly don't bring your economcis and politics here.  

Regards,

Haroon

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Steve:
The same person that designs a Hyundai Sonata, builds it for $9,000, then turns around and sells it for $22,000.

You mean Hyundai dealers sell them for $22,000 and keep a bit of that for themselves, so it's not as if Hyundai is getting $13,000 of that $22,000 sale.

But so what? Assuming your $9,000 figure is correct, I don't see a $22,000 retail price being terribly unreasonable.

So are you saying that a pair of M1's cost $41,000 to make?

I don't think so.

In fact, I doubt they cost any more to make than that $22,000 Sonata.

Quote:

Example:

If you really feel like Mr. Levinson should, as you say; " I hope the son of a bitch winds up broke and living on the streets begging for change." Then you should hope the same for politicians (liberals) that produce NOTHING, but still confiscate billions in taxes of dollars they piss down the drain on failed social programs.

Or failed military adventures...

Quote:

But no one will touch that one.

In case you didn't notice on your way in, this is the Stereophile website, not a political forum.

Quote:

You see, the idea of the free-market is to build a product someone wants and turn a profit.

Sure. Like the folks at Korsun who built the U2 and sold it at a profit for $200.

Quote:

Point in fact: Nobody FORCES an individual to purchase uber expensive audio gear.

So?

I never said otherwise, so what's your point?

What I said was that I feel that taking an amplifier that retails for $200, re-branding it and selling it for $2,000, or slapping a few pro drivers in a box and selling them for $100,000 a pair can only be borne out of a certain contempt for those who would buy them.

se

soulful.terrain's picture

Steve,

So I gather you want to put limits on how much profit an individual can make?

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Steve,

So I gather you want to put limits on how much profit an individual can make?

What would you have gathered that from? Certainly not from anything I wrote.

se

soulful.terrain's picture

10 posts up from this one, you made the comment to 'atlaudio' that goes like this:

.."But there's a difference between making a reasonable profit and pricing something to the point that it can only be borne out of a certain contempt for those who would pay that price."

If you advocate a "reasonable" profit, then you must believe in an unreasonable profit, thus a profit limit.

Who gave you the authority to decide what is a "reasonable" profit for a businessman to earn?

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

10 posts up from this one, you made the comment to 'atlaudio' that goes like this:

.."But there's a difference between making a reasonable profit and pricing something to the point that it can only be borne out of a certain contempt for those who would pay that price."

If you advocate a "reasonable" profit, then you must believe in an unreasonable profit, thus a profit limit.

There's no advocacy of any such thing in that. But there's certainly a big straw man in what you wrote.

se

soulful.terrain's picture

...is a virtue. practice it.

atlaudio's picture

The M1 is a pretty amazing system... anyway, isn't live sound played from pro audio drivers ? It dosent take a genius to know how to make recordings sound live then, huh ? Tell you what.. I have a top notch EV system with over 4000W and dual 18's per side that sounds nothing like the M1, the horn on the M1 has no glare or "horny" sonic signature. Perhaps we could argue about price, but if we were all in one room with this system, everyone would likely agree that it sounds like the real thing.

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

anyway, isn't live sound played from pro audio drivers ?

Well, live performances that use sound reinforcement systems to amplify the music do, yes.

Quote:

It dosent take a genius to know how to make recordings sound live then, huh ?

You mean to make recordings sound like a performance played through a sound reinforcement system?

Quote:

Tell you what.. I have a top notch EV system with over 4000W and dual 18's per side that sounds nothing like the M1...

Keep in mind that designing a loudspeaker for sound reinforcement or cinema sound isn't necessarily what you would come up with if you are designing for a home audio system.

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...the horn on the M1 has no glare or "horny" sonic signature.

Great. That it apparently doesn't use a diffraction type horn likely goes a ways toward that.

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Perhaps we could argue about price, but if we were all in one room with this system, everyone would likely agree that it sounds like the real thing.

Perhaps so. I've not said anything about its sound except to say that generally I rather like pro drivers myself.

But at the end of the day, you can't escape the $100,000 price tag.

se

tmsorosk's picture

Ya $100,000. but if they sound like a million bucks does that make them a bargain ?
Are they competitive with speakers of the same price ?

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Are they competitive with speakers of the same price ?

That's a bit backwards isn't it?

I'd prefer to know if the M1's stomped the dog shit out of everything that cost considerably less.

se

atlaudio's picture

I walked around and listened to the rooms even the YG room that was close and my feeling was that the DH system relayed something I did not encounter in the other rooms and that was seamless, coherent natural dynamics. When I say natural, I mean lifelike with real presence and weight. I found most the other rooms to have that "Hi-Fi" sound, which to my ears and brain is sort of hollow and ghost like.. OK... granted, the traditional hi-fi spatial image thing is fun because it sounds like music out hanging in the blackness of space, but to me the signature is sort of "hollow" for lack of a better word. Almost like a skeleton with no muscle. Everything is aligned and in its proper place structurally, so the symmetry is pleasing, although the organic nature of music in the DH system overall moved me emotionally more than others. It simply FELT better to me.
Its hard obviously to compare the DH system to the small systems that were so abundant at the show because those are little guys for little rooms. like little gumdrops or something. They obviously could not match the low frequency of the 18"s on SS monos. The speed of the DH system was very evident in Fremers vinyl rip of the 45RPM Who "Tommy" jam.... It was easy to hear in the rapid guitar strumming. Next was a similar vinyl rip of the "Gladiator" soundtrack... The soundstage was so wide and deep, coherent and dynamic that I seem to have slipped into a trance as I was transported off the earth. (resistance is futile.lol)

So, I have listened to Wilson Alexandrias and they did not compare to the depth of frequency and coherence, I listened to the YG room at the show and got that hollow, spatial thing. The MBL room was similar in SPL, but the speakers had audible dynamic compression. I must apologize, but I did not like Legacy even for a minute. So, yes, to me, based on their performance, I think $100K is a proper price point.

As far as stomping the stuff that cost considerably less, yes of course they did in my opinion.. by a good margin...

Perhaps DH will be at Rocky Mountain and more people can experience them. This show had anemic attendance..

Cheers

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

As far as stomping the stuff that cost considerably less, yes of course they did in my opinion.. by a good margin...

Did you compare it to any speakers that were a bit more comparable?

Any JBL Everests (which sell for less than half the M1's) there?

se

atlaudio's picture

They were not at the show. I have heard the JBL as well.. They do sound great although the midbass and low midrange is better on the DH. The DH is 100dB, so more sensitive than the Everest and teamed with the m6 preamp which has a one million Ohm input impedance, it just had a noticeable speed.. even the 18 was fast.

corrective_unconscious's picture

Perhaps those speakers do sound as good as other 100k+ speakers - which appear to have a lot more machining and more costly drive units for the same money - I just can't see how the cost of materials could come anywhere near a typical industry proportion of that list price. I agree with the other skeptics that the tumultuous history of this person and associated ventures, particularly in the apparent Red Rose re-badging, as well as his anger problems, imo, I have witnessed at a previous show, raise questions.

Of course, a thing is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it. No one can deny a person's decision to spend money as long as it's done so legally. We can question the decision, however. Even mock it.

tmsorosk's picture

There is a lot more to it than the price of parts and time to build . Manufactures must recoup development costs on a per unit basis . On this type of speaker with a low number of units sold , that cost per unit will be high .

corrective_unconscious's picture

I was obviously talking about relative value. All the ultra high manufacturers have to recoup development costs and have comparatively low unit sales.

My terribly simple observation, to which you added exactly nothing, was that this particular speaker appears to have a larger markup vis a vis parts cost than any similarly priced competitor I can think of.

atlaudio's picture

Appearances can be misleading... unless someone actually knows what went into these speakers, it is moot to comment on parts cost. I think people are getting off track.. its about how they SOUND, and what they make you FEEL, not some ascertation as to what the parts count and hard cost of manufacturing the component parts is... this is audio, and its about the music and how it makes you feel.
If I create an exclusive treatment for dogshit and every time you smell it you have an orgasm, then its worth something more than its component parts.. Are Armani suits worth more then the yardage of silk off the bolt ?
You actually think that the only high end equipment coming out of China was the Red Rose Music gear ?? lol... It may have been the FIRST, which Mark seems to have done quite often in his 40 year career, but there are many big names made in China.. mainly companies who do high volume... like companies with lots of dealers...

I personally will pay for the best sound over "most expensive component parts" any day. After all, I am in this for the experience rather than the calculation of value.

I for one do not think this speaker is overpriced. Most speaker cabinets are CNC machined MDF glued together by cabinet makers and sprayed with automotive paint then filled with Dacron.. Drivers are off the shelf Seas, Scan-Speak, Peerless..whatever..

The DH speakers are made with hand selected hardwood that is graded cured and aged in a giant humidor, then the same techniques used to make a piano are applied. This is instrument grade wood with resonant qualities that MUST maintain a certain humidity not to swell, crack, split, buckle, etc. This is different than making a kitchen cabinet. 14 layers of lacquer are then applied and each layer is hand polished, and dried before the next is applied... total paint job takes 4 weeks. The damping inside is natural sheeps wool, not poly fill.
The drivers are proprietary, and the 18" woofer os 100Db sensitive ... good luck finding that. This sub can handle 4000W RMS at 8 ohms. The mid is made by the same manufacturing plant and has a special damping treatment on the surround for unparalleled midbass and low midrange frequency. The mid and horn are in a separately sealed internal enclosure.
The horn is a patented compression driver that sounds nothing like a traditional horn.. no glare at all.. smooth as silk and extremely wide dispersion. This horn is 115Db sensitive and no other speaker company has it.
The speaker bezels are solid hand polished stainless steel. They look like the bezel of a Patek Philippe. These also add rigidity to the mounting of the drivers.
The back mounted crossover is in an independently sealed enclosure of its own and is completely removable without opening the speaker.
The crossover is mounted on a plate which has slots for airflow and cooling if someone decides to be playing at concert level. This prevents any drift or anomalies from a hot crossover.

I have researched these speakers well.. I may own some soon.

So yeah.... appearances can be deceiving....

Happy listening !

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

I think people are getting off track.. its about how they SOUND, and what they make you FEEL, not some ascertation as to what the parts count and hard cost of manufacturing the component parts is... this is audio, and its about the music and how it makes you feel.

And for me, it's also about whether I feel the person wanting me to give them my money has what I consider to be contempt for me.

Quote:

You actually think that the only high end equipment coming out of China was the Red Rose Music gear ??

Not at all.

Quote:

lol... It may have been the FIRST, which Mark seems to have done quite often in his 40 year career...

Naaaah. Manufacturers were going to China well before Red Rose.

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...but there are many big names made in China.. mainly companies who do high volume... like companies with lots of dealers...

Sure, there are big names who are having their stuff made in China.

But in the Red Rose case, we're talking about an amplifier that had already been designed and manufactured by a Chinese company that was selling them RETAIL for $200. Levinson simply bought the amps from the company, had them re-badged, and sold them here for $2,000.

Quote:

I for one do not think this speaker is overpriced. Most speaker cabinets are CNC machined MDF glued together by cabinet makers and sprayed with automotive paint then filled with Dacron..

So?

Quote:

Drivers are off the shelf Seas, Scan-Speak, Peerless..whatever..

And I've not seen anything to indicate that the drivers used in the M1 aren't off the shelf.

Quote:

The DH speakers are made with hand selected hardwood that is graded cured and aged in a giant humidor, then the same techniques used to make a piano are applied.

So?

As I've said previously, you can get an entire Petrof grand piano for well less than half of what the M1's selling for. And we're just talking about a simple, flat-sided BOX.

Quote:

This is instrument grade wood with resonant qualities that MUST maintain a certain humidity not to swell, crack, split, buckle, etc. This is different than making a kitchen cabinet.

No it's not. The very same precautions have to be taken by anyone who works with solid woods, which by the way isn't necessarily the best choice for loudspeaker enclosure. MDF isn't as common as it is just because it's less expensive than solid wood. It's also because it's better damped and more inert.

Quote:

14 layers of lacquer are then applied and each layer is hand polished, and dried before the next is applied... total paint job takes 4 weeks.

Of course most of that time waiting for the finish to thoroughly dry between coats. So it's not as if it's four weeks worth of labor.

Quote:

The damping inside is natural sheeps wool, not poly fill.

So? I can get batts of 5-1/4" sheep's wool for less than a few bucks a square foot.

Quote:

The drivers are proprietary, and the 18" woofer os 100Db sensitive ... good luck finding that.

Beyma 18P80/ND.

What do I win?

It's not difficult at all to find 18 inch pro drivers rated between 98 and 100dB.

Quote:

This sub can handle 4000W RMS at 8 ohms.

Which is utterly meaningless.

They say the speaker has been limited to 126dB. Which only comes to 500 watts at 8 ohms.

Quote:

The mid is made by the same manufacturing plant and has a special damping treatment on the surround for unparalleled midbass and low midrange frequency.

This sounds more like a sales brochure than a human being.

Are you sure you're not just a shill for Daniel Hertz?

Quote:

The mid and horn are in a separately sealed internal enclosure.

I would expect that even in a $2,000 loudspeaker.

Quote:

The horn is a patented compression driver that sounds nothing like a traditional horn.. no glare at all.. smooth as silk and extremely wide dispersion.

First, patents don't mean shit.

Second, a compression driver and a horn are not one and the same. It's not compression drivers that sound like horns, it's horns that sound like horns.

Quote:

This horn is 115Db sensitive and no other speaker company has it.

A lot of good that 115dB is when you just have to pad it down by 15dB in order to match the other drivers.

The speaker bezels are solid hand polished stainless steel.[quote]

"Hand polished" = Held in the hand while polished using a motorized buffing wheel.

Which is a hell of a lot less expensive than designing and building a machine to polish them automatically.

[quote

wrote:

They look like the bezel of a Patek Philippe.

They look like about the plainest rings you can imagine with some button head socket screws in them.

Quote:

These also add rigidity to the mounting of the drivers.

Those driver frames are rather flimsy, eh?

Quote:

The back mounted crossover is in an independently sealed enclosure of its own and is completely removable without opening the speaker.

For $100,000, I'd expect them to be physically separated from the enclosure.

Quote:

The crossover is mounted on a plate which has slots for airflow and cooling if someone decides to be playing at concert level. This prevents any drift or anomalies from a hot crossover.

The crossover components would still get hot even with ventilation.

se

atlaudio's picture

Wow, your undying energy to discredit the audio legend Mr. Mark Levinson is phenominal... I am totally impressed.

Cheers !

Steve Eddy's picture
Quote:

Wow, your undying energy to discredit the audio legend Mr. Mark Levinson is phenominal... I am totally impressed.

What's far more impressive is your undying sycophantic attempt to turn someone who's little more than a sideshow barker into a god.

Ask John Curl sometime what a great guy Mark is. It was, after all, John's designs that put Levinson on the map with the JC-1 and JC-2. Ask John if Mark ever paid him the royalties on those designs as he was promised.

It's also impressive that you didn't address a single thing that I said.

se

atlaudio's picture

I don't address your rhetoric because I know your type.. no matter what I comment about, you will find a way to try and "be smarter". A real wisecracker you are.
Sideshow barkers don't make it into history, and evidently his name is powerful enough for Harman to buy then use as a market edge for Lexus automobiles. Oh yeah..Cello was a real flop too..lol.. maybe we should count how many times the name Mark Levinson has been printed in the pages of Stereophile in the last 30 years.
Do you mean the JC-1 and 2 that Colangelo redesigned before they were really recognized as the ML-1 and ML-2 ? You got a gripe from 1977 ?? LOL

The bottom line is that the mere mention of the name Mark Levinson stirs something deep and emotional inside you, which means you have been MARKETED. Good or bad, the hooks are in you.

Your heated, passionate, emotional response speaks volumes about the power and strength of the name Mark Levinson....

Good or bad, there are far more responses on this thread than the next "hottest" topic from the AXPONA report.. so based on statistics, the Daniel Hertz system (due to the name Mark Levinson) is the most talked about.

Its simple math my friend.... and THAT equals good business.

Bravo !

tmsorosk's picture

Well said atl . It's a sad case of sour grapes .

andy_c's picture

Here's a quote from an interview about high-end audio ripoffs.

"When I started there was no ‘high-end’ audio. There was McIntosh and Revox and JBL, but I never thought of it as high-end audio — to me it was just good engineering, quality parts, and the goal was just to achieve better sound. In my opinion, high-end audio started to develop originally out of a passion for better sound, and very quickly it developed into a way of taking money from wealthy music lovers who though they were getting something. And it’s turned into a gigantic fraud, a rip-off, a fiasco. It’s really tragic that people who love music are spending all this money on stuff which doesn’t really work. It’s just the most under-engineered, over-priced... well, there are some good products here and there; not everything is like that, but by and large it is. And in some cases there is actual fraud on — people should be in jail for some of the cables that cost US$27,000 a pair."

Seems like that applies here.

tmsorosk's picture

I guess it's all how we look at it . Whats  a ripoff to some is a treasure to others . But if you want the best in ANYTHING it's not likely going to be cheap .

3DVagabond's picture

Hi, new member here. I've found the comments here very interesting. Just wanted to add my $.02.

Back in the '80's I was involved in the audio retail business. Pertinent to this discussion I was the manager of a high end audio store. One of the lines we sold was Cello at the time Mark owned the company. I had the opportunity to spend a day with Mark at the factory and his home. Even at that time Mark was a legend. You told someone that you owned his gear and they were typically speechless and awed. When Mark Levinson the company was acquired by Madrigal (IIRC) Mark had to enter into a no competition agreement and they got the rights to his name. They knew the weight and respect that Mark Levinson commanded in the industry.

Cello equipment was the most neutral colorless electronics I've ever heard. Even until this day. We carried lots of other high quality brands but all of them, and any other audio electronics I've ever heard, made some impression on the sound. I don't want to digress into a discussion about brands etc. but I'm sure those here know what I mean. You audition an amplifier and you say, "Great bass" or "What a clear high end". There was none of that impression with Cello electronics. You instead listened to the music. You could also hear the impression of whatever non Cello piece you inserted in the system. Change between something as subtle as record clamps, or turntable mats and hear the contribution to the sound they made. The cartridge or tone arm wasn't set up properly and the degradation on the sound was obvious. The other side of the equation, you could insert, or remove, something as complex as the Cello Audio Palette and, unless you spun one of the dials, there was no change at all. Nothing. Complete neutrality.

Not so for the speakers though (AR-LST derivative). They were, in a word, awful. That was until Mark, the sound engineer, spun the dials on the Audio Palette. They then sounded fantastic. Clear and dynamic. Imaging still sucked, but that could have been Marks listening room, as much as anything. A sparsely decorated room, with little except for a Persian rug on the floor and a listening chair, the room was, let us say, "lively". The Audio Palette though, in Mark's professional hands, tamed both the room and the speakers. At least tonally. I could never come close to reproducing the sound Mark achieved. Those here that speak of him with much respect, I understand completely.

Now, those here who speak of him with contempt, I understand you too. I was at the same time, very much disappointed when I met Mark. I had imagined some Zen like audio guru master that would impart to me total audiophile enlightenment. Instead, he more reminded me of a used car salesman. He wasn't the least bit interested or concerned with me, my business, or any type of enlightenment I might have been searching for. My trip was intended as both a PK meeting with Mark and to purchase some equipment. I could have saved the money and time going to see Mark and just placed the order on the phone. I got nothing more out of it, except, of course, for the opportunity to meet Mark Levinson. I am happy though that I did get to meet him. I think anyone who loves high end audio should get the opportunity as well. I think our personalities clashed a bit and someone else might take something different from the experience.

Being older and, hopefully, a wiser man now, I think I understand Mark better. Mark is a survivor. Few people can go through life, live through the ups and downs, and come out the other side able to do exactly what they want to in life. I believe Mark has done this. I don't know how Mark is doing today, but I can assure you that at the time I met him he wasn't raking in the dough. From being in his home I can tell you that Mark was "surviving". If a company like Yamaha or Onkyo can sell a piece of gear for $200, then Mark would need to sell it for $2000. That's just the type of business that the ultra high end is. The numbers just aren't there to sell product at the same mark up as the mainstream manufacturers do. The other side of the coin though, and this is what makes the high end what it is, Yamaha or Onkyo, with all of their state of the art labs and equipment, couldn't design and produce equipment like the Cello Audio Palette, or even his little Etude passive preamp (switcher/volume control). I don't think they'd have a clue on how to measure the sonic purity of such equipment, and without being able to quantify it's sound, they couldn't understand how to make it.

So, is Mark's products expensive? Too expensive? A rip off? Is he a rip off? Not if you can afford it, want it, and can appreciate it. This Chinese amp he marketed? Sounds like it was pretty despicable. I can't imagine why he would market something like that. It surely couldn't have sounded anything like the equipment I've been familiar with from him. Maybe Mark was in ultimate survivor mode at the time? It's impossible to judge someone though without actually walking in his shoes. Hopefully it is something that he'll never find the need to do again and instead he'll be able to produce the type of products that have made him the legend that he is.

Sorry for the wall of text. After two pages of rant/counter rant though, I felt I had to have a say too.

 

Peace.

Daniel Hertz is new Mark Levinson Made In China CONFIRMED's picture

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. READ MY COMMENTS IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS POST.

Cheers

tmsorosk's picture

Thanks 3D , for giving things some prospective , it was very three dimensional .

drblank's picture

Here's a link to Raptor Electronics that explains the Red Rose Music.

 Also, it is widely known that there are Chinese companies that pop out of no where that copy US companies products.  So maybe the Chinese company was merely copying the Red Rose Music product, not that Red Rose Music was slapping their name on the product and increasing the price by a factor of 10.

http://raptorelectronics.com/events.html

Now, it could have been that they did have the product or portions of the product mfg in China, as do many companies are doing now to save money, but they are or at least were designed in the US.