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sonicbaer
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cable measurements..again
Elk
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Re: cable measurements..again

I suspect there has been no response as there is nothing new in the article and the subject has already been soundly beaten.

Those who cannot hear differences in cables will continue to not hear them.

Those who hear differences in cables will continue to hear them.

However, I don't understand why those that do not hear differences often act with religious zealousness to try to convince those that do hear differences that they are wrong.

Buddha
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Re: cable measurements..again


Quote:

However, I don't understand why those that do not hear differences often act with religious zealousness to try to convince those that do hear differences that they are wrong.

I think it's a similar thing to a psychaitrist trying to convince a patient that the patient is not really a chicken.

They feel compelled out of human decency and the desire to help other people overcome mental disorders.

Now, I'm not saying that they are right to do that. I'm just saying that they seem to have things like that in mind.

Those zealous objectivists are the same ones who wold also caution you about bridges for sale in Brooklyn.

(Just stirring, I have no dog in this fight. Y'all can hear cables do whatever y'all want them to do. I've been burning in my last new cables for almost 5 years now...they keep sounding better and better.)

Jan Vigne
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Re: cable measurements..again


Quote:
have fun and enjoy the music

sonicbaer, I do hope you are not seriously considering this article to be light reading for those moments when when P.G. Wodehouse is just too dark. I agree there hasn't been any new ground covered with this article so far. But I don't remember a single laugh line either. Maybe things will pick up in the next chapter.

Elk
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Re: cable measurements..again


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I've been burning in my last new cables for almost 5 years now...they keep sounding better and better.


Now there's a burn-in period.

BTW, I am a chicken. With antlers. So there.

sonicbaer
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Re: cable measurements..again


Quote:
I suspect there has been no response as there is nothing new in the article and the subject has already been soundly beaten.

Perhaps I was just wanted someone to validate my existance

sonicbaer
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Re: cable measurements..again

I think it's a similar thing to a psychaitrist trying to convince a patient that the patient is not really a chicken.

They feel compelled out of human decency and the desire to help other people overcome mental disorders.

maybe why I find comfort at the asylum.

Monty
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Re: cable measurements..again

I've found it useful to use recordings that are substantially flawed to differentiate the sonic signature of cables. Well, useful in demonstrating that cables do sound different. Whether or not the differences are better or worse takes a lot longer.

As an example, I can take a recording that has a little too much siblants in the presentation and make that aspect more or less noticeable depending on the cables used. I have no problem identifying the cables in my system based solely on that aspect and with those recordings. While that doesn't address which cable is the better sounding cable over all, (I'm happy to leave that to subjectivity) it's easy enough to demonstrate to even a fairly casual listener.

Once you satisfy yourself that cables do sound different, it's not much of a stretch to consider that other sonic aspects can be effected as well by cables.

I don't buy many of the cable claims made by the cable peddlers and lord knows the prices are insane, but I do buy the fact that cables can sound different...because they do.

sonicbaer
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Re: cable measurements..again

I've only been a DINK (dual income no kids) about three years now. I am finally able to get some equipment that's pretty good...I've not got golden ears but I'm learning more about what I like.

Been listening to a lot of equipment and cables. For the first couple of years I blew off the "cable people"..the more I listened the more I thought there was a difference. All the passion in the arguments peaked my curiosity...

I've tried several on my own system..one day I tried some silver plated copper...BIG difference..I listend for a week and realized the change was not to my liking ...so I have no doubt speaker cables can make a difference...determining the best seems to be proving more difficult...I've found while I can hear a difference much of the time, I seem to need a little time to realize what's better and what's not. So for now I am back to my Oyaide's, better mids, non-grating highs..and enjoying the music.

until something else gets my attention

Michael

Monty
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Re: cable measurements..again

Yeah, there is no getting around the recording. People who have a very narrow genre of music that they really enjoy can have a much easier time selecting components that will satisfy them over the long haul. For those of us who like all sorts of music that runs from the poorly recorded to the superbly recorded, we have a much tougher time staying satisfied.

sonicbaer
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Re: cable measurements..again

I had no idea this hobby had such an insidious side..

I too have an interst in a very broad genre of listening pleasure. When all I had was a very cheap system all my CD's sounded equally poor. Now I have a mid-fi system and found some of my favorites were no longer my favorites because they weren't great recordings. I thought they were a lost cause.

Then I added a seperate DAC and some of them sound good or at least better again... does it ever end ?

Elk
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Re: cable measurements..again


Quote:
Then I added a seperate DAC and some of them sound good or at least better again... does it ever end ?


Nope.

At times the audiophile wins out and the equality of the recording really matters. At other times the music lover wins and the quality of the music is all that matters. Once in a while the recording is great and the music is also superb.

Buddha
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Re: cable measurements..again


Quote:
I had no idea this hobby had such an insidious side..

I too have an interst in a very broad genre of listening pleasure. When all I had was a very cheap system all my CD's sounded equally poor. Now I have a mid-fi system and found some of my favorites were no longer my favorites because they weren't great recordings. I thought they were a lost cause.

Then I added a seperate DAC and some of them sound good or at least better again... does it ever end ?

It ends when you go to the human equivalent of "Rainbow Bridge."

Hey, welcome to the jungle...

thehifiguy
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Re: cable measurements..again

When you hear a difference, there is one.

Disagreement occurs when you try to decide which is correct.

I love the sound of tubes.

Currently my system is all SS (although I am waivering).

Loved Klipschorns.

Currently own a hybrid dynamic / panel speaker.

I like what I like. I expect I will never really know which is right. Very close friend of mine has been in recording all of his adult life.

Owns SS and Klipschorns.

Cables - yes they sound different.

Value and descretionary income come into play - as well as your basic bent on being right .... or entertained.

I am new to the forum and like what I have seen so far.

Hope I can learn more as I surf.

HFG

Elk
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Re: cable measurements..again

Welcome, HFG!!

VinnieVeedivicki
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Re: cable measurements..again

Cables only have as much effect on your system as turning the treble control up and down as cable capacitance is a very simple and effective treble cut control. Fact.

Cables have no effect on the power transmission of your system just like putting a ten thousand foot wire between you and your outdoor lights has no effect on how bright they are. Except it does, fact (that was a joke---they will get vewry vewry DIM). Which is exactly what voltage drop in a cable does to your sound. It gets weaker and less dynamic.

That all said if your system is total crap you will not notice much difference with any of this stuff and THAT is what the know nothing testers are discovering. But we already understood that problem...

Me I make them out of cheap George L's wire with Neutrik connectors. Very lively low capacitance stuff.

dcstep
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Re: cable measurements..again

Nice article, thanks for posting that.

It's funny to watch the reactions when someone actually measures a differences due to cables that actually impact sound (man those reactive plots were amazing)and the naysayers still stick to their guns.

That series of articles greatly enhanced my understanding of the amp/cable/speaker interaction. I already thought that I understood certain elements, but only in isolation, and that article tied the concepts together for me.

Dave

extigr
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Re: cable measurements..again

I was struck by this concluding paragraph


Quote:
Nevertheless, the evidence is now overwhelming that cables can give rise to sonic differences. The situation is somewhat paralleled by the relationship between stress and the functioning of the human immune system. Believe it or not, despite the fact that most people 'know' that when people are stressed they seem to be more prone to illness and infection, no clinically proven, scientific evidence currently exists to make a definite link between stress and susceptibility to illness.

This is pure straw man argument. NO ONE claims cables CANNOT give rise to sonic differences. No one claims cables cannot measure differently, either. Conditions under which cables will likely 'sound different' are easy to concoct (e.g., gross mismatch of gauge over a long span) -- and easy to avoid. And no cable skeptic denies that some 'high end' cables purposely alter the sound.

The authors acknowledge the necessity of DBT, yet fail to show in a scientifically acceptable fashion their measured differences were audible, or likely to be. So they resort instead to what amounts to innuendo and leaps of logic.

But the graphs do show substantial difference...for the 'name brand cables' -- Phoenix Gold and Isoterik. The Romex performs quite simialry before/after by comparison.

Maybe the Take Home MEssage is 'pricier' cables should be avoided, and that 'generic' is good enough?

I would also be very curious to know what Paul Frindle makes of the use they've put his quote to.

Monty
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Re: cable measurements..again

Maybe the "take home" message is to borrow cables to try in your own
system and determine for yourself if the price to performance ratio
is attractive to you, yourself, personally, given your economic means
and willingness to spend your, own, money?

I've never met a dealer that wasn't happy to loan cables to try at
home. And why not? They have big profit margins and it's not likely
you are going to return them in bad shape.

In addition, perhaps a person could ask the dealer what gauge wire
the cables are constructed with, stop off at Home Depot and buy the
equivalent gauge Romex and do their own A/B comparison?

I'd be willing to bet that a smart guy, such as yourself, could do
all this with minimal effort and minimal expense and be satisfied that
you have reached the wise decision in your choice of cables.

dbowker
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Re: cable measurements..again

"Maybe the "take home" message is to borrow cables to try in your own
system and determine for yourself if the price to performance ratio
is attractive to you, yourself, personally, given your economic means
and willingness to spend your, own, money?"

That's ALAWYS been my argument. It's so simple really- I don't get why so many guys seem to find it so hard to understand. I wonder especially why so many people care so much about the subject at ALL. There are plenty of REAL problems out there with corporate greed, pollution and dangerous products- expensive cables probably rank down there with expensive shoes as important social issues to address...

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