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Lamont Sanford
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Avast, Matey!

Forget North Korea and Iran. The president's first real international crisis is 4 Somalian pirates holding the captain of a lifeboat hostage. I don't think this is something "meetings" alone are going to fix. I find this incident a little ironic. Come on, Mr. President, Aye! mon then!

bifcake
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Is it Long John Silver or Blackbeard that's holding the captain? Have they made him walk the plank yet? Someone pass me a bottle of rum, maytee!

Buddha
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Well, if Obama handles this hostage crisis as well as W handled the crisis when those engineers were abducted in Iraq, that captain is as good as dead.

Hey, it was W's daddy who invaded Somolia - another Bush success story!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:
Well, if Obama handles this hostage crisis as well as W handled the crisis when those engineers were abducted in Iraq, that captain is as good as dead.

Hey, it was W's daddy who invaded Somolia - another Bush success story!

I know a little bit about this.

Bush "I" signed up with other UN nations to go to Somalia after the UN Security Council decided to act for humanitarian purposes in December 1992. Clinton was inaugurated the next month.

Clinton sent the huge (5,300 troops) U.S. contingency to Somalia on October 7, 1993. There was already a U.S. presence there with UN troops to protect food stocks. Don't make fun of our actions in Somalia. On October 3, 1993 we lost a lot of good people there. Especially, Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart (members of Delta).

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:
Is it Long John Silver or Blackbeard that's holding the captain? Have they made him walk the plank yet? Someone pass me a bottle of rum, maytee!

I think he got so fed up with waiting for somebody to do something that he made a swim for it. Never try to out swim a pirate. In other news today Somalian pirates seized an Italian tugboat. The largest ship in the Italian Navy and a member of NATO. An attack on any NATO nation is an attack on all NATO nations. And before some of you liberals come back with something stupid like it was a ship and not a nation go and do some research on oceanic shipping.

Buddha
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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:

Quote:
Well, if Obama handles this hostage crisis as well as W handled the crisis when those engineers were abducted in Iraq, that captain is as good as dead.

Hey, it was W's daddy who invaded Somolia - another Bush success story!

Bush "I" signed up with other UN nations to go to Somalia after the UN Security Council decided to act for humanitarian purposes in December 1992. Clinton was inaugurated the next month.

Clinton sent the huge (5,300 troops) U.S. contingency to Somalia on October 7, 1993. There was already a U.S. presence there with UN troops to protect food stocks. Don't make fun of our actions in Somalia. On October 3, 1993 we lost a lot of good people there. Especially, Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart (members of Delta).

That's rich!

"Don't make fun of our actions in Somalia," says the guy who posts pictures of Nazi symbols when talking about the auto industry!

Now Lamont has gone full liberal. He's in charge of telling us what we can and can't make fun of!

Maybe you should ban me.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

You were totally incorrect with the "invasion" of Somalia. That's rich. You got the Internet at your disposal and you make an accusation of fact that Bush invaded Somalia. I guess that was before you ever heard of a UN Resolution #.

And I wasn't fucking kidding about not making fun of our action in Somalia. You want to bring this to another level, Buddha? We can get real personal on this one you little cock-sucking shit. And I mean that literally. Aye, mon then!

Let's get back to your facts on the invasion of Somalia and how that pertains to Obama doing what? Having meetings?

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Re: Avast, Matey!


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You were totally incorrect with the "invasion" of Somalia. That's rich. You got the Internet at your disposal and you make an accusation of fact that Bush invaded Somalia. I guess that was before you ever heard of a UN Resolution #.

And I wasn't fucking kidding about not making fun of our action in Somalia. You want to bring this to another level, Buddha?

Hmmm, who was President when we sent our military into Somalia?

It was different from an invasion how?

Dude, Bush I invaded Somalia, UN gobbleteegoop be damned.

Did the UN call and say, "George, get your ass into Somalia, right now, or else?"

Is Lamont saying that George the First idly stood by while the UN told us what to do with our military?

I doubt it. George I even named the invasion: "Operation Restore Hope."

LOL, Lamont. "The UN did it."

Hell. Just another Republican mess the Democrats had to clean up.

"You want to bring this to another level, Buddha?"

Ooooh. I-I-I-I'm sh-sh-sh-shakin'!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

I honestly had no idea you were so stupid. You were too busy taking it up the ass I guess. Look up UN Resolution 794. There is nothing in there about invading anyone. People were starving to death because relief was getting stolen. Clinton did what he could and never suggested we shouldn't be there. The entire mission was at his helm. I'm not even suggesting Clinton did any wrongdoing. Though the parents of Gary and Randy may see things differently. In fact, I would go far as to say that UNITAF's mission was a success.

Now, lets get back to your facts about the invasion of Somalia and how that pertains to Obama doing what? Having meetings? Last I looked the captain of the lifeboat is still being held hostage 300 miles offshore. This is Obama's Bay of Pigs? I would hope he would take this opportunity to take action quickly. Not get on a loudspeaker and tell the pirates we are not at war with them. I just had a epiphany! With Obama's charisma he can actually go there and get on that lifeboat and talk to everybody and bring the whole thing to a peaceful ending.

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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:
Hey, it was W's daddy who invaded Somolia - another Bush success story!

And it was Clinton who ran away leaving the job half done...

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

The original UNITAF mission, which began in December 1992 and ended in March 1993 was actually a success. UNOSOM II (aka Somalia II) was the "Blackhawk Down" era that led to disaster from March 1993 to March 1995. But Buddha is accidentally, out of ignorance, limiting his responses to Bush I so-called invasion of Somalia. That would be UNITAF. Bush I was on watch for only a month before Clinton was inaugurated and UNITAF was the only successful UN involvement in Somalia. It's predecessor, UNISOM I was a failure, which led to UNITAF that was a success, which led to UNOSOM II that was a failure. So, since you bring that part up,....Yeah, Clinton screwed it up pretty good. He blinked and the rest of the world saw it. A president can't do that.

As for the captain of the lifeboat being held hostage by 4 pirates? As Kissinger would say in his gravely voice, "If we are not very very careful hundreds of thousands of people may die."

Man, this is a no brainer for Obama. Take action and seize the day. If he can't handle the captain of a lifeboat being held hostage by 4 pirates 300 miles out to sea than he can't find his way out of a wet paper sack. Like Buddha.

Now excuse me. I'm going to watch, Raid on Entebbe for some ideas on how to successfully handle people that take innocent people hostage far from home.

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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:
In other news today Somalian pirates seized an Italian tugboat. The largest ship in the Italian Navy and a member of NATO.


Do you know why the new Italian Navy uses glass bottom boats?

To see the old Italian Navy ...

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Buddha
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Re: Avast, Matey!

That's the best you can do?

Oh, well. I thought you were going to take it to a higher level. I guess that's just more evidence of how ineffectual right wing thought has become.

So, now, Lamont is a UN backer who thinks that UN resolutions are what determines US military action.

So, it's the UN's fault that George I didn't finish the job the first time around in Iraq.

The UN has condemned Israeli actions before, should we be going along with that, too?

A conservative falling back on "the UN told us to do it" is the post of the decade.

The UN told us that global warming is real and that we should be doing something about it.

Anything the UN says goes!

Israel has ignored 66 UN resoltuions. maybe we should invade them, next.

Lamont, Mr. UN!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Don't tell me your typing on a hand held device. That's so gay.

You've gone from Somalia being attacked by Bush I to the worthlessness of the UN. You're starting to get into the arena of contradicting yourself about how Bush II handled Iraq II. Without the UN.

Now, lets get back to your facts concerning Bush I "invading" Somalia and how that pertains to Obama's current problem with the captain of a lifeboat being held hostage by 4 pirates. Do you think he can pull it off? Personally, I hope he does and quickly. Like yesterday. But chances are somebody is going to die and I'm going to blame the whole thing on Obama *roll eyes*.

Ah shit, I'm watching Raid on Entebbe. This is so cool. I love the Israelis.


Quote:
Yitzhak Rabin: [realising an Air France flight is late] Have we heard anything from the French?

Gad Yaakobi: Not a word.

bifcake
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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:

Quote:
Is it Long John Silver or Blackbeard that's holding the captain? Have they made him walk the plank yet? Someone pass me a bottle of rum, maytee!

I think he got so fed up with waiting for somebody to do something that he made a swim for it. Never try to out swim a pirate. In other news today Somalian pirates seized an Italian tugboat. The largest ship in the Italian Navy and a member of NATO. An attack on any NATO nation is an attack on all NATO nations. And before some of you liberals come back with something stupid like it was a ship and not a nation go and do some research on oceanic shipping.

Aye! I love it, maytee! Let's get 'em NATO to go after Blackbeard! Aye!! Run, my pet parrot! Run!!! The NATO is coming for you!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Meanwhile, we are still waiting see what Obama is going to do about the poor unfortunate captain of a lifeboat being held hostage by 4 pirates 300 miles out to sea. How many days now? Obama! Obama! Obama!, ah I remember all so well.

Okay the scenario is something like this, "Ah, Mr. President, our Navy has the lifeboat completely surrounded. We are waiting on your orders."

Personally, I think his plan includes a Portuguese Water Dog (NATO member?). By coincidence he has one on the way but I'm sure the conspiracy experts and anarchists are going to say the dog is from the NSA and going to rescue the poor captain and then we can make a Disney movie from the story. Obama Dog! The next Rin Tin Tin.

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Re: Avast, Matey!


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That's so gay.

We can get real personal on this one you cocksucking little shit.

...you were too busy taking it up the ass.

Strident anti-gay rhetoric + florid gay sexual imagery + chest-thumping, right wing militarism = classic latent homosexual tendencies. LaMont, get real with yourself, tell the wife it's over and come out of that tormented little closet.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

HE'S RESCUED! HE JUMPED SHIP AGAIN. OBAMA GETS NO CREDIT. CAPTAIN OF LIFEBOAT JUMPS SHIP AND GETS RESCUED BY NAVY. AGAIN, GETS TIRED OF WAITING. SAVES HIS OWN LIFE. GOOD MAN. KNEW HIS ODDS WERE SLIM TO NONE IN THE HANDS OF THE EXECUTIVE ADMINISTRATION. TOO MANY MEETINGS NOT ENOUGH ACTION. OBAMA'S FIRST INTERNATIONAL CRISIS IS OVER.

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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:

HE'S RESCUED! HE JUMPED SHIP AGAIN. OBAMA GETS NO CREDIT. CAPTAIN OF LIFEBOAT JUMPS SHIP AND GETS RESCUED BY NAVY. AGAIN, GETS TIRED OF WAITING. SAVES HIS OWN LIFE. GOOD MAN. KNEW HIS ODDS WERE SLIM TO NONE IN THE HANDS OF THE EXECUTIVE ADMINISTRATION. TOO MANY MEETINGS NOT ENOUGH ACTION. OBAMA'S FIRST INTERNATIONAL CRISIS IS OVER.

Yeah, then the captain grabbed some guns and shot the pirates.

Then he made some witty comment like, "Jo mama, O-bamma."

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Good one....

It appears as if Obama ordered a rescue attempt. It's over. Good job!

bifcake
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Obama should have done what I would do: Order the captain to commit sopuku and then feed his remains to the sharks. Kill the sharks, bring their remains in coffins covered with American flags and give them full military funeral.

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Re: Avast, Matey!

I'm siding with Lamont on this one 100%, although I'd disagree with his argument style. If there ever was a humanitarian reason to go kick some ass, it was Somalia. Unfortunately we didn't stick to our guns and left after the Black Hawk incident.

The Somali warlords were literally starving 100's of thousands of women and children to death as a means of political control. Why it's not called genocide when when that happens I don't know, but we were there primarily to force the delivery UN food relief, and provide some semblance of stability. A bad day for our military when lost 20 of our best. Tragically the same warlords whipped up the populace to try and overwhelm the US soldiers, resulting in an estimated 1,500 to 2,000 Somalis killed and wounded that day. It's complete chaos on and off ever since we left.

There ARE some good reasons to use military force, and I'd say Somalia was one of them. As usual, politics thwarted the good intentions and the mission was not allowed to work.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

The historical ramifications are almost endless. I can remember Al Queda bringing up saying we would run for the hills at the first sight of our soldiers returning home dead. It lead to every single attack against U.S. interest both at home and abroad right up to the spectacular and yet so simple attacks on 9/11.

Actually, Obama might be just the right person to bring back some sense of law and government back to Somalia. We have an excellent chance of making Somalia's suffering to end and create a good ally in the process. Strategically it is a great place for us and tactically it is a great place for us in the region.

The irony of the Maersk Alabama was her cargo. It was humanitarian by the people of the USA to the region. This is an excellent opportunity for the president to take extra steps to bring an end to the suffering there. I didn't even realize we were still providing aid. We're too focused on small wars currently being fought. We can handle a lot more than a couple of small theaters of war, a depression of sorts, and providing aid. We've done it before. My parents have lived through it and raised six children. Why should we be different?

We can fix a lot of problems. We just need to get rid of the dead weight with bad attitudes in Washington. And I'm not referring to the Executive Branch. I'm referring to congress.

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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:
You were totally incorrect with the "invasion" of Somalia. That's rich. You got the Internet at your disposal and you make an accusation of fact that Bush invaded Somalia. I guess that was before you ever heard of a UN Resolution #.

And I wasn't fucking kidding about not making fun of our action in Somalia. You want to bring this to another level, Buddha? We can get real personal on this one you little cock-sucking shit. And I mean that literally. Aye, mon then!

Let's get back to your facts on the invasion of Somalia and how that pertains to Obama doing what? Having meetings?

Oh, man, I know how you love and venerate the UN, so I suppose you'll be infavor of rounding these criminals up:

U.N. Official: Obama's Decision Not to Prosecute Torture Violates International Law

That bad boy Barak better start prosecuting!

Wouldn't want to not follow UN policy, us being part of it and all.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Maybe he can publicly announce the names of the CIA agents involved? Yeah, Obama is doing a great job sticking with his victory speech the night he was elected. Something about "Change" and he might not be able to keep all his promises. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

As for international law? Who gives a rat's ass. Just going to work is a violation of international law.

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Re: Avast, Matey!

I thought the fellow was uncharacteristically quiet...he was caught by surprise...here is a time line from the theater making the internet rounds.

1. BHO wouldn't authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC (on scene commander) recommendation.
2. Once they arrived, BHO imposed restrictions on their ROE that they couldn't do anything unless the hostage's life was in "imminent" danger
3. The first time the hostage jumped, the SEALS had the raggies all sighted in, but could not fire due to ROE restriction
4. When the navy RIB came under fire as it approached with supplies, no fire was returned due to ROE restrictions. As the raggies were shooting at the RIB, they were exposed and the SEALS had them all dialed in.
5. BHO specifically denied two rescue plans developed by the Bainbridge CPN and SEAL teams
6. Bainbridge CPN and SEAL team CDR finally decide they have the OpArea and OSC authority to solely determine risk to hostage. 4 hours later, 3 dead raggies
7. BHO immediately claims credit for his "daring and decisive" behaviour. As usual with him, it's BS.

bifcake
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Do you think it's possible for Obama to do anything right from your point of view?

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Re: Avast, Matey!

Sure...he is a masterful campaigner, tells as good a whopper as Bill Clinton, and reads a teleprompter very well indeed. As to accomplishments...as he had none going into office and it is too soon to know if trillion dollar deficits are simply bad or if they are disaster, I'll have to hold on the rest of his abilities.

No, I will take that back. He IS the first post racial candidate. He ran not as a black victim but as a normal politician, like all the others, and he won. THAT is a real accomplishment.

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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:
I thought the fellow was uncharacteristically quiet...he was caught by surprise...here is a time line from the theater making the internet rounds.

1. BHO wouldn't authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC.....

It being the Internet and all that and being a little suspicious I did a quick Google search for the above quote.

These are just a very few of the sources given for the quoted timeline:

Rear Admiral Lou Sarosdy, USN Retired, writes.....
The real story of Obama's Decision Making with the hostages.

I got this from a friend of mine that is an ex CIA spook and he got it from the horses mouth.

The item below is to dispel the delusions of those that may think that BHO (Barrack Hussein Obama) isn't doing so bad as President....From a very reliable source.

Excerpt From Blog Post:
General Vallely
Subject: BHO vs SEALS

AH, now it comes out...Reporters having spoken to some SEAL pals in Virginia Beach and having asked why this thing dragged out for 4 days, they got the following:

Having spoken to some SEAL pals here in Virginia Beach yesterday and asking why this thing dragged out for 4 days, I got the following: (note the change from this source being an individual talking to SEAL pals to the above source being reporters talking to some SEAL pals)

Draw your own conclusions as to the accuracy of what actually happened

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

Could be a case of the President micromanaging the situation. Not really a good idea. ROEs are almost always fucked up. Especially, if the Commander-in-Chief is doing it. Examples, Bay of Pigs, Gulf of Tonkin (Actually the entire Vietnam Conflict, Korea, Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq I, Iraq II, Afghanistan. Every goddamn military action since the end of WWII.

JIMV
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Re: Avast, Matey!

You have to ask yourself...what in Obama's resume readied him for making real decisions that matter? The part that rings true from that list is the delays and the military finally acting properly on their own.

dbowker
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Re: Avast, Matey!


Quote:
You have to ask yourself...what in Obama's resume readied him for making real decisions that matter? The part that rings true from that list is the delays and the military finally acting properly on their own.

Let's see, and the president that DID have something in their resume for such decisions? OK, I count one- who did an OK job, but surely not a perfect record (I'm talking GB senior).

Take your pick: career politician, marginal VP turned president, farmer turned governor, actor turned governor, former CIA director turned VP, lawyer turned governor, mediocre business man turned governor... Well, some times it mattered, sometimes not.

I'm not sure this was micro managing or just setting some guidelines. In any case, the action seems to have had a strengthening effect on other countries stepping up and doing some policing of their own.

BTW- After having been a fan of the movie Black Hawk Down for several years, I just read the book. What an amazing read! A lot of depth and perspective the film had to leave out. Should be required reading for all foreign policy makers.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Avast, Matey!

JIMV and Dbowker:

He doesn't strike me as the type of fellow that would give a directive and let the military commanders figure it out as they deem necessary. But ROE's almost always result in the unnecessary loss of friendly lives in small wars and so forth. For example, it's obvious to everyone that Mr. President probably doesn't know a damn thing about counterinsurgency warfare. As a primer, I suggest he read, Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice, David Galula, 1968. He is sort of a deer in the headlights on military matters. You might want to join The Small Wars Council for more detailed information on the topic. The topic is beyond the scope and company language of Stereophile.

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