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Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Very sad, but very true.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

If Stephen is on the right track with cassettes and I am headed on the wrong track going to 2496-ville, I am going to be very, very sad. It will be a lonely trip I guess.

I wonder if you can still buy cassette duplicators?

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

I will take the trip to 2496-ville next to you. The rest of the seats in that bus might be empty, but what the heck

smejias
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:
If Stephen is on the right track with cassettes and I am headed on the wrong track going to 2496-ville, I am going to be very, very sad. It will be a lonely trip I guess.

I wonder if you can still buy cassette duplicators?


Don't worry. I'm not saying cassettes are the future of hi-fi. Cassettes are important to me because some of my favorite bands choose to release their work on cassette. And I just think cassettes are pretty and cool.

I think CDs will die a slow death -- maybe 20 years or so -- but vinyl (slowly, but steadily until reaching a plateau) and hi-rez downloads (much more aggressively as technology relentlessly changes) will continue to grow. Soon enough, people will be able to just pop a pill and hear whatever song they want to hear, or stick a tiny computer chip in their cryogenically treated super-brains.

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Nostalgia will always be around, but no doubt will the major part of music be sold via the web in the future. Downloads will slowly but surely grow as time goes by. Some people even love 78's to this day.

smejias
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


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Nostalgia will always be around, but no doubt will the major part of music be sold via the web in the future. Downloads will slowly but surely grow as time goes by. Some people even love 78's to this day.


I agree that most music will be sold via the Web, but I also think the love for 78s and other older formats comes from many factors, including but not limited to simple nostalgia.

Drtrey3
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

We may all be Bozos on this bus, but I am with you guys on the highres express. Honestly, 24/96 files are good enough that I feel less compelled to spin vinyl. Vinyl trumps the high res in some areas, and the files beat vinyl in ergonomic considerations, but for me it is close enough to a draw that I am around 50/50 on whether to listen to the black disc or the file.

And I have not had any problems with HDtracks.

Trey

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Re: Sorry, not really, as far as I know...


Quote:
kind of surprised that this high bit rate discussion has not drawn more interest. Maybe my hopes were too high and that folks like us who really want to enjoy a better recording are really in a huge minority.

Maybe it is just more sensory overload and they just want to listen to something and not worry about it. Maybe 16/44.1 is good enough for them.

I definitely have interest. I'm not really up to speed on the technology. Just sittin' back and taking it all in.

Onward and upward.

Freako
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Re: Sorry, not really, as far as I know...

Ain't we all

Elk
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


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. . . customers didn't care about how the music sounded.

. . .

"Yeah, but our records have more hits and that is what the people want, more hits. They don't care about how many tracks are on the record."

They were correct in both cases.

The vast majority of customers do not care about sound.

Second, hits sell. For a long time many bought a physical CD because it contained the one song they wanted. Now that they can obtain the song by itself they no longer care abut the CD.

HD TV sells as most can see the difference and watching a movie is a communal experience.

Most can't hear the difference between 44.1 and 96 (it is pretty subtle to be fair) and most don't care.

mark evans
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


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I will take the trip to 2496-ville next to you. The rest of the seats in that bus might be empty, but what the heck

Heck, lets make it a party of 3 then. I'll provide some tunes and even pitch in for gas.

Mark

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

I'll bring a sixpack or two

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

There will be more when it is actually time to load the bus.

"Most can't hear the difference between 44.1 and 96 (it is pretty subtle to be fair) and most don't care."

I think John Marks pretty much answered that statement".

dave_b
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

I think there has always been only a handfull of nuts like us who have given a shit about absolute fidelity. Me hears a difference so I keep on keepin on! Sent my SonyXA5400ES to Dan at Modwright...more to follow

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Please keep us informed. All we read is how great a stock player the 5400 is, and you sent it to Tim Allen at "ToolTime" for the small block Chevy upgrade. Let us know how it turns out.

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:
There will be more when it is actually time to load the bus.

"Most can't hear the difference between 44.1 and 96 (it is pretty subtle to be fair) and most don't care."

I think John Marks pretty much answered that statement".

I think it depends. The difference between 44 and 96 kHz can be huge, but sometimes the difference between two redbooks is huge. Sometimes there is hardly any audible difference between 44 and 96. Couldn't we agree that the mastering/mixing plays a role too?

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

I love data and it loves me. Well, not exactly.

roadster
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:
I love data and it loves me. Well, not exactly.

Jim, thanks for the illustration. It explains what I couldn't see with my bifocals.
Now I know why these two discs aren't interchangable. I'll stop trying.

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

And now we know why there's room for more data on a DVD

geoffkait
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Wait 'til you get a load of Blu Ray.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Nice illustration!

Call me a pessimist, but I don't believe in HD-DVD or BluRay for music. As much as Sony failed with DVD-A, they are gonna do the same thing with those formats. The film industry is a whole other business however.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

I agree. Just because people are going to watch BluRay movies on their big TVs doesn't mean they would even consider buying music only BlueRays. The other formats failed as music only.

I do believe that the 2496 DVDs could make it as an alternatvie to the short run LP pressesing on 180 gram, or better, vinyl, that could be bought by those not joing in the vinyl resurgence. Vinyl shorts runs and DVD+R shorts runs could work very well.

Some one will have to try and see what would happen. At under $1.50 a DVD in runs of 1,000 that is not much of an investment to try a new delivery medium.

I would offer limited art work on the DVD releases, but offer additional album art and info off the purchasing site as a download. I get tired of reading 2 point type off disc trays anyway. I do not see this as a retail effort just as the 180 gram vinyl releases aren't.

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

You're absolutely right.

Yeah, us older dudes have a problem reading printed text in font type point 2! Darn!

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:
Call me a pessimist, but I don't believe in HD-DVD or BluRay for music. As much as Sony failed with DVD-A, they are gonna do the same thing with those formats. The film industry is a whole other business however.

You may be right but I am less pessimistic. The features that distinguish BluRay from the earlier efforts are that (1) its success as a video medium means that there are many manufacturers who will continue making basic machines to play them, (2) that the same success means that there will be many pressing plants for the medium and (3) there is no viable competing medium (HD-DVD is already dead). BluRay Audio may not succeed as more than a niche but the infrastructure defined by mass market production gives it an advantage that was not afforded to SACD or DVD-A.

Kal

rvance
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Kal, does the HDMI connection sound as good as 7.1 analog for Blu-ray?

I will be adding Blu-ray music to my hi-rez collection of DVD-A's, SACD's and 24/96 DAD's as soon as I set up ANOTHER disc player (A just-purchased Samsung wi-fi enabled Blu-ray), in addition to 2 Marantz universal players, via HDMI. Later, I'll need a Blu-ray audio-compatible receiver (my Marantz SR 7001 won't decode), which won't be happening until my current one fails. Then, of course, I'll need to upgrade my universal player to a newer model if the Samsung doesn't do justice to the audio tracks. I bought it mainly for streaming Blu-ray video.

The hi-rez fun never stops.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


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Kal, does the HDMI connection sound as good as 7.1 analog for Blu-ray?

You haven't been paying attention to my articles and reviews!! So, as a summary: Yes because............

rvance
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:

Quote:
Kal, does the HDMI connection sound as good as 7.1 analog for Blu-ray?

You haven't been paying attention to my articles and reviews!! So, as a summary: Yes because............

You see, sometimes I ask the humble, obvious question to elicit interest in the multi-channel, hi rez, red-headed stepchild of the magazine. It's your opportunity to elaborate...and every time I do, this is what happens. Or else I just forgot what you wrote before. One of the two.

Editor
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Kal, does the HDMI connection sound as good as 7.1 analog for Blu-ray?

You haven't been paying attention to my articles and reviews!! So, as a summary: Yes because............

You see, sometimes I ask the humble, obvious question to elicit interest in the multi-channel, hi rez, red-headed stepchild of the magazine. It's your opportunity to elaborate...and every time I do, this is what happens.

Kal's comments on multichannel analog vs HDMI appear in our new (September) issue, which will hit newsstands this coming weekend. Kal wrote this column in mid-May, which is perhaps why to him it appears to be old stuff.

On magazine, we have to live in 3 timeframes simultaneously: the issue just published, which was worked on 6-8 weeks ago; the next issue, which is at the printer and is already history to us despite no-one outside our office having seen it; and the issue we are currently working on, which will not hit newsstands for another 6-8 weeks. No wonder we get confused. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:
You see, sometimes I ask the humble, obvious question to elicit interest in the multi-channel, hi rez, red-headed stepchild of the magazine. It's your opportunity to elaborate...and every time I do, this is what happens. Or else I just forgot what you wrote before. One of the two.

Sorry to have hit a hot button. This is something that I have written about many times, usually as part of a review of a player with both options, and, most recently, as a stand-alone segment of MITR, as JA has pointed out. (It ain't out yet? )

But that is not entirely why I didn't answer in extenso. It is not a simple matter. The factors include the system context and the personal preferences of the user. Although I prefer and use HDMI, there are others who justifiably prefer analog.

rvance
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Actually, I forgot and was taking the lazy way out this time. So your answer was appropriate.

Poor Audiophile
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

"On magazine, we have to live in 3 timeframes simultaneously: the issue just published, which was worked on 6-8 weeks ago; the next issue, which is at the printer and is already history to us despite no-one outside our office having seen it; and the issue we are currently working on, which will not hit newsstands for another 6-8 weeks. No wonder we get confused. :-)"

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Wow! I have trouble keeping 1 time frame straight!!!
Thanks for all the hard work John & staff!!

blackfly
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

This thread is all interesting and fun, but the reality is that high res will fail like previous formats for the same reason: NOT ENOUGH SELECTION. I am NOT a classical fan and most of the music I like is not going to be high res or ever popular enough to be released as such. Moreover, if this being the case, it makes my CD collection all the more valuable to me as at LEAST I have the music to listen to, regardless of the format or bitrate.

In fact, for me personally, I am betting high res (for MY musical tastes, anyway) will not pan out, and I am banking on my CD collection being a reference for a long time.

Not that it is bad, but a reality and if done right, redbook CD is fantastic. I think many write it off based on theory, not actually extracting everything on the irridescent disc. Would you not want to do the same with vinyl? Many seem willing (and able) to spend inordinate sums on this task, but when done to CD you are assumed to be a fool or idiot.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Point taken. It is no secret that I am an HD/MCH guy and I am fortunate that classical music is well-represented. Nonetheless, I still listen to stereo most of the time and that mostly from or at CD resolution. It would take many years for there to be enough HD/MCH to compete with CD.

But it doesn't matter. I listen to what I like in the best performance with the best sound (in that order most of the time).

Kal

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

But, Dr. Kal...this looks very interesting:

The Marantz 8004 SA-CD player:
Plays SA-CD (Stereo), CD, CD-R/RW(MP3/WMA/CD-DA)
Front USB (type A) input for USB memory & iPod/iPhone Digital Connection
Rear USB (type B) input for PC - up to 96kHz/24-bit
Digital Inputs (Coax/Optical) for DAC mode - up to 192kHz/24-bit
Digital Outputs (Coax/Optical) for CD/iPod/iPhone (SPDIF format)
-----------------
The last is 24/48 max I am guessing.

Freako
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Sounds like a great deal for $1k

RGibran
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

I'm tinkin Dr. Kal may have more interest in a UD8004!

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

Marantz Bd8002 Reference Blu-ray Dvd Player
Marantz Factory Refurbished
Add to Wishlist Read more
List $2,000 factory refreshed at $599

some one could get a real deal.

Marantz Bluray 8002

Marantz UD8004 Blu-ray, SACD, DVD-Audio & Video, CD Universal Player
Marantz Factory Refurbished
Add to Wishlist Read more List $2299 now $1299

Snooze you loose. www.accessories4less.com

blackfly
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????


Quote:
Marantz Bd8002 Reference Blu-ray Dvd Player
Marantz Factory Refurbished
Add to Wishlist Read more
List $2,000 factory refreshed at $599

some one could get a real deal.

Marantz Bluray 8002

Marantz UD8004 Blu-ray, SACD, DVD-Audio & Video, CD Universal Player
Marantz Factory Refurbished
Add to Wishlist Read more List $2299 now $1299

Snooze you loose. www.accessories4less.com

Again Jim: you do not buy players if you have no discs to play in them.

And in regards to your universal player, it is a known fact the best CD players are CD specific, not "all in ones". I will stick with my refurbished, modded and recapped Denon DCD 3520 for now.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

It really depends upon WHAT cd player you are talking about. I would imagine that THESE universal players at their price points would top the performance of many cd only players of the same sale price.

I would doubt that there is any $600 CD player that would top the BD 8002.

I have read many prefer the universal Ayre 5 to the 7.

palinuro
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

As blackfly said, availability of Hi-Rez music is one issue, the relative absence of "plug-and-play" solutions seems to me also important. The trend is towards using computers and/or budget transports and good DACs but the resulting complexity seems often to negate the advantages of the extra Hi-rez bits . Some examples:

1. What is the optimum set up of computer hardware and software for the purpose? I know for a fact that at home music sounds different depending on which computer and software I use, but I have no clue why (moreover optimal software choice seems dependent on the file format, I wonder why). I suppose the same is true when burning DVDs.

2. Even if every one settles on the most appropriate format, interfaces are a headache. Not all budget transports allow hi-rez to pass through SPDIF. My Oppo (and my Sony SACD player) do not. Good luck trying to find out which players do. HDMI, on the other hand, is not common with DACs. Add, therefore, another step, an HDMI-SPDIF converter (if you know where to find one).

3. Computers, on the other hand, tend to opt for USB. Most commentators seem to agree that, with the exception of few DACs, the USB connection is suboptimal. Add a USB-SPDIF converter(?). Moreover, if one does not want the (possibly noisy) computer in the music room, one needs to find some wireless solution that allows for 24/96. I think there are not many around (e.g. Logitech transporter).

All in all, it may be my inexperience, but so far my (admittedly limited) efforts to go down this road resulted to distinctly worse results than playing my CDs through my dedicated (admittedly more expensive) CD player. I wish therefore that more knowledgeable souls in the forum described in more detail their set up for hi-rez music for others to learn how this can be done properly

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Hi rez lack of interest??????????

It is clear that many companies using USB have overcome many inherent problems that USB poses. I would still prefer to use firewire or some other method, but that is where the market is heading, regardless. Sadly, many new laptops are omitting firewire connections.

I use a cheap Behringer FCA 202 24/96 firewire box and bought a firewire card ($20) and installed it in my home built PC. It works fine for a computer based playback system. My noise floor is below the visible limit of Sony Sound Forge recording metering of -80db, until my external source is plugged in, then generally under -74db. It is quiet enough for what I am doing for needle-drops and general internet listening.

I did my BlueCoast downloads on this computer and they seemed to sound fine to me. I have given copies to 2 friends for their critique of the sound quality to them. It was great for BlueCoast to offer the free downloads at 2496.

bdiament
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Re: August Issue: JMR As We See It (Excellent) Hi-Rez

One thing I didn't see in the article is that iTunes does 24/192 (or 24/176.4) too!

In my experience, wonderful as 24/96 can be, with the better converters (those with analog stages and clocking that is truly up to the task), 24/192 crosses an important threshold. Properly done, it no longer sounds "digital".
Properly done, it no longer sounds "analog" either. It sounds like the input signal.

At recording sessions, it sounds like the mic feed. This is something I've never experienced before, with the "best digital" or the "best analog" recorders. Reservations I've held for years, where I felt the best analog does some things better than the best digital, have evaporated.

For folks who'd like to compare high res with "Redbook" (i.e. ordinary, 16/44 CD), I've created a "Format Comparison" page.
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com/format.htm

(If you do compare, please make sure your system is not changing the sample rate or applying dither - for then, you'd be listening to your system and not to the files.)

24/192 files can simply be dragged (or imported) into iTunes -and many other "music server" applications. (On a Mac, be sure to set "Audio/MIDI Setup" to match the sample rate of the file. You'll need to quit iTunes, change the setting and re-launch iTunes.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Editor
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Re: August Issue: JMR As We See It (Excellent) Hi-Rez


Quote:
For folks who'd like to compare high res with "Redbook" (i.e. ordinary, 16/44 CD), I've created a "Format Comparison" page.
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com/format.htm

The 192kHz version does sound superb, Barry, even though I am playing it via the AES/EBU output of a Lynx AES16e soundcard into a Benchmark DAC1, which downsamples to 110kHz. And how do you get such a quiet background!?!

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Jim Tavegia
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Re: August Issue: JMR As We See It (Excellent) Hi-Rez

When I asked , the folks at Audio DVD Creator said "stay tuned" for possible 24/192 buring to DVDs. I am hoping that the playback of 24/192 is not going to just be computer diven. I would rather have access to that than nothing at all, though.

I am unaware if DsicWelder Bronze will allow that now.

You guys with very low noise floors are just showing off!!!!! lol I am envious to say the least.

ps to JA, love the avatar!

Freako
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Re: August Issue: JMR As We See It (Excellent) Hi-Rez

Jim, I am no longer able to PM you, or reply to your PM's. It seems you have exceeded your quota for receiving messages. Please try do delete a few old ones, and let's see if it helps.

P.S. I have PM'ed Stephen about it, asking for help on the issue.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: August Issue: JMR As We See It (Excellent) Hi-Rez

You did good. "Pay no atention to the man behind the curtain. HE is the great and powerful Oz!"

Freako
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Re: August Issue: JMR As We See It (Excellent) Hi-Rez

Indeed he is

Poor Audiophile
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Re: August Issue: JMR As We See It (Excellent) Hi-Rez

"In my experience, wonderful as 24/96 can be, with the better converters (those with analog stages and clocking that is truly up to the task), 24/192 crosses an important threshold. Properly done, it no longer sounds "digital".
Properly done, it no longer sounds "analog" either. It sounds like the input signal.At recording sessions, it sounds like the mic feed. This is something I've never experienced before, with the "best digital" or the "best analog" recorders. Reservations I've held for years, where I felt the best analog does some things better than the best digital, have evaporated."

Wow!! That's quite a statement Barry!! Seems 24/192 is the way to go.

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