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CECE
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After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Look on teh other side of the plug, look what kind of hookup wire it goes to, not to specail is it? and yet the piece outside, makes it all sound better? How can that be, when it terminates into standard hookup wire? This is an expensive Marantz player too, not a $50 Oppo http://www.musicdirect.com/products/images.php?i=1&p=32900&h=73840 http://www.musicdirect.com/products/images.php?i=1&p=32900&h=73840

cyclebrain
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

I have replaced all of the standard wire nuts in the circuit path of my system with NASA/military/hospital grade all copper wire nuts. Everyone knows that using steel wire nuts on copper wire creates a dissimiliar metal interface. And again to state the obvious to all of the experts here, a dissimiliar metal interface will create galvanic action.
Galvanic action will create both corrosion and a voltage and/or noise. Doesn't sound ideal for audio. Anyway, this is B.S. sorry for wasting your time.

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Wire Nuts is a trade name for twist wire connectors from Ideal Mfg'...where they truly Wire Nuts, or are you using that as the genric name for twist on wire connectors, Scotch, Buchannan,T&B and others make twist on wire connectors, ever find any rated for audio AC ckts, me neither.

cyclebrain
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Maybe "wire nuts" should be a generic term for those that spend $1000s on audio wire.

gkc
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

"Wire nuts" is a condition that comes with old age. I ought to know.

rabpaul
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

I am not really sure which wire you are griping about so lets say its the power cable.
Well after using a $100 cable for a couple of years I changed to one thats a little more than $1000 and what a difference it made.
If you were griping about interconnects I have been using a $300 one and am now contemplating $1000 ones only because I can't afford the ones that are under $3000 which are even used by a Stereophile reviewer.
Yes, I am wire nut only because I can hear the difference.

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Click the small image up top on the insides of the player, see the black and white wires coming off the RCA plugs, looks like common hookup wire which would kinda prove all it takes is some simple wire to make things work,.

judicata
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

DUP, I happen to share your views on expensive cables. Really. But, here your just picking a fight for no reason. A pro-cable person can argue that the wire is only a few inches long (if that), so it's fine.

Ah, well, why bother...

KBK
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

The longer the length of wire, the more of an affect is has on the sonics. It's a longitudinal (parallel development of energy and then injected in a perpendicular manner and is then phase smeared) energy issue. It's basic electronics, 101. And it is something that can be heard.

To keep the fire going here, I'll say that someone just ordered a 6 meter balanced (XLR) interconnect. That's a $20K cable.

But, as stated before, the regular rules of the math and the realities applied to conductors, geometry, and purity of materials.. does not apply here, which is why the individual has gone forward with such a purchase.

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

$20,000 XLR cable, brilliant.... I use a bunch from www.procosound.com They are also $20,000 XLR with Neutrik ends, the only difference is that didn't cost $20,000. Everything in math, physics, sonics did apply to these wires. The only thing i don't like about them they tend to tangle too easy every time I have to pack em back up in teh case, but they are robust, they sound fine, no noise, and are flexible, and easy to wipe off after some one spilled there damn beer on teh floor teh last time I used them on the mics.....I bet for $20,000 cables they also come in a nice fancy box, mine came in a cardboard pkg......I saved $19,950 for the 50 foot one, 25 ft was like $31.95, lifetime warranty on falling apart, even ABUSE. I bet you find that $20,000 cable at PartsExpress.com or MCM for a lot less, just pretend it was $20K, if that makes it better.......There ain't $20,000 worth of wire in a $100,000 Audi, and that actaully has special wires for extreme voltages, temperatures, digital signals, cold, hot wet, all kinds of extreme abuse.....I think it's true, the school system are not working, they sure ain't teaching common sense

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Ya gotta explain "phase smeared".........

RGibran
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Come on Dup. If someone wanted to give you 20K for a pair of cables don't you think you could explain phase smeared?

RG

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Yes, that is a $20,000 term........You could wire a studio for $20,000 and still have money left over. And I'm sure one needs a system of the resolving power to be able to allow the incredible improvements that this magic wire will do, cus' as the routine goes, if you don't hear an improvement, your system isn't resolving enough.....or you have too many watts or too many drivers , you need 15W of magic watts and a 5" driver......$20,000 XLR cable, how gulliable are supposedly educated people anyway?

KBK
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Less. Gullible. Than. You.

es347
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Hello there,

I don't post here often but I saw this thread and since I have been beating myself up recently with the exotic power cord dilemma, I thought I might add my 2 cents. I am a retired EE and as such know a bit a about power distribution and it's inherent problems. Where I used to work the really bad actor in AC power was harmonic distortion, specifically of the 3rd and 5th harmonic variety. It caused many of our delicate lab instruments to malfunction...a bad thing to have happen in pharma research. We analyzed the voltage and current waveforms and found huge current distortions but relatively low voltage waveform distortion (due to the very stiff system). Turns out that the lab instruments for the most part were not sensitive to current waveform harmonics but instead did not like distorted voltage waveforms. If you were to look at the current waveform at your residential service entrance you would no doubt find a pretty nasty current waveform. The voltage waveform would likely be pretty bad as well, but the point is no power cord in the world is going to affect that problem. The notion that using noise shielding or exotic conductor material on that last 6 ft. of AC service will make a difference is also quite a reach. Think of the thousands of feet of non-twisted, non-shielded wire that resides between your house and the source. That last 6 ft. that you have control over is not likely to have any impact on the voltage or current waveform at all. Having said that, I just bought some very nice highly flexible 12/3 STO cord, mesh braiding, shrink wrap and reasonably priced plugs and made several cords for my 2CH system. Do they sound better? Probably not but they look great and that seems to be just as important as the sonics to guys like me who suffer from this hobby. $20K cables? Certainly not for AC power. Interconnects? Hey if you can afford it and you think it makes your system sing, go for it. After all a $500K exotic sports car is tough to justify too but folks who can afford one...more power to you.

(more accurately the above was more like my 50 cents rather than .02....sorry)

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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Very interesting!

Thanks for posting.

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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
If you were to look at the current waveform at your residential service entrance you would no doubt find a pretty nasty current waveform. The voltage waveform would likely be pretty bad as well, but the point is no power cord in the world is going to affect that problem. The notion that using noise shielding or exotic conductor material on that last 6 ft. of AC service will make a difference is also quite a reach. Think of the thousands of feet of non-twisted, non-shielded wire that resides between your house and the source. That last 6 ft. that you have control over is not likely to have any impact on the voltage or current waveform at all.

A long time ago, I looked at the residential voltage waveform on a scope. It does not look particularly nasty. It looked rather like a good sine wave. However, I had no equipment to check for the spectrum of frequencies present in the AC. So looking on a scope really does not prove that the waveform is purely 60Hz; it just "looks" good, but does not show any of the sudden peaks or high frequency noise riding on the wave.

I too still am skeptical, but credible people have made the claim of audible difference despite your (and many others') logic that the last 6 feet is unlikely to make a difference.


Quote:
Do they sound better? Probably not but they look great and that seems to be just as important as the sonics to guys like me who suffer from this hobby.

Is there a way for you to describe any difference in sound before and after using the newer power cable? I know people who swear that the power cable makes a audible difference. If there is an effect, it must be affecting the secondary side of the power transformer in some unimaginable (to me) way.

I also have a hard time believing that power cables can cost so much money.

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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
Hello there,

I don't post here often but I saw this thread and since I have been beating myself up recently with the exotic power cord dilemma, I thought I might add my 2 cents. I am a retired EE and as such know a bit a about power distribution and it's inherent problems. Where I used to work the really bad actor in AC power was harmonic distortion, specifically of the 3rd and 5th harmonic variety. It caused many of our delicate lab instruments to malfunction...a bad thing to have happen in pharma research. We analyzed the voltage and current waveforms and found huge current distortions but relatively low voltage waveform distortion (due to the very stiff system). Turns out that the lab instruments for the most part were not sensitive to current waveform harmonics but instead did not like distorted voltage waveforms. If you were to look at the current waveform at your residential service entrance you would no doubt find a pretty nasty current waveform. The voltage waveform would likely be pretty bad as well, but the point is no power cord in the world is going to affect that problem. The notion that using noise shielding or exotic conductor material on that last 6 ft. of AC service will make a difference is also quite a reach. Think of the thousands of feet of non-twisted, non-shielded wire that resides between your house and the source. That last 6 ft. that you have control over is not likely to have any impact on the voltage or current waveform at all. Having said that, I just bought some very nice highly flexible 12/3 STO cord, mesh braiding, shrink wrap and reasonably priced plugs and made several cords for my 2CH system. Do they sound better? Probably not but they look great and that seems to be just as important as the sonics to guys like me who suffer from this hobby. $20K cables? Certainly not for AC power. Interconnects? Hey if you can afford it and you think it makes your system sing, go for it. After all a $500K exotic sports car is tough to justify too but folks who can afford one...more power to you.

(more accurately the above was more like my 50 cents rather than .02....sorry)

I think people SHOULD be skeptical. It's a good and healthy thing. In the right context and use, it keeps people alive and safe.

And in the cable or tweak end of the business, it's good to self evaluate, to quantify the sonic worth, for one's self.

The people the high end cables generally sell to is to folks who have gone quite far with their systems..and have finally arrived at the point -that to them- the cables are more the weak point in their systems..and in good audio design..this can happen. It tends to show it in a more revealing fashion.

Actually, the widest bandwidth signal other than digital (square waves -zero to infinity and back again) which is an analog audio signal..this requires some good solid thinking to design such a cable....and it tends to cost money to design and build them.

But like anything, there are good builders to sell to a discerning crowd..and there are folks who sell to other crowds, at different points in the 'audio learning curve'.

This can happen at any price point, not necessarily expensive.

After all, the cables are not forced on anyone. People take them home..and evaluate the worth, for themselves.

Audio cables, as a basic concept... are deceptively simple. However, the complexities of skin effect and other cable design and electrical parameters, due to the way the ear actually hears, makes such a simple seeming and small linear weighted distortion...seem negligible. However, experience has shown and so has science..that the ear, does not hear like a linear weighted measurement system. After a bit of nice musical listening, the ear/brain system -in the trained audiophile- can and does become a quite pointy and sharp stick, when it comes to being a trained and working evaluation tool. We can discern and understand the intelligibility of a 4 bit signal (digital 4 bit depth of a human vocal signal).

This does mean that 4 bits is our learned limit (so far), and it is merely the limit of discernment by this 'system' (ear/brain) on one end of the scale..and this 4 bit level..is one that anyone (with undamaged hearing, etc) has been shown to be able to complete -as a learned task. Now..what does that become..at the other end of this scale of capacity, within the context of possible skills that the ear/brain may train itself to discern?

We hear the sum totals of the transients and leading edges as 100% of the signal and ignore the bulk of the signal as it is really..not heard. We hear temporally based harmonic cumulative transients. The timing between the peak values and the length of the peaks (as 'level').

Therefore..as you go and look at JUST the transient distortion issues, and then understand that is all the ear hears..then it begins to make sense. And that ear/brain computer hears all of the transient information as a cumulative harmonic structure. A very intelligent computer.

And the Offices of Naval Research of the US Navy..has shown that we deal with and transmit information neurally as a holistic instantaneous whole. Ie, actual temporal predetermination is one aspect of neural signals in living forms. Actual, real, 'spooky action at a distance' is only one aspect of the neural system. A Proven -dead real-, I'm not even remotely kidding--- fact.

It gets much deeper than even that strange fact, if you go looking at the research.

What I'm saying, is it is not all that cut and dried as linear weighted numbers and research indicate. The situation must be fully understood and the proper science applied to those points of how the ear hears, in order to understand how to transmit an electrical signal with as little disturbance as possible and then translation to an auditory signal that the ear decodes.

These understandings are still evolving.

In the meantime, we all flail about, doing our best to alleviate the situation in as intelligent a manner as the given person, or company, can.

bifcake
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

ES,

If there is a bad AC waveform coming out of the socket, shouldn't the audio equipments' power supplies rectify this problem?

On a slightly different note, is ES347 a character from Isaac Asimov's book? I forget the name of it, it's the one with a planet with three suns that experiences an eclipse and everyone goes crazy?

KBK
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

http://www.vintagelibrary.com/pd.php?pcode=asimov01

six suns. ouch. Anyway, great book. Another great one, was 'The Mote in God's Eye', by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.

As for reflections of the excesses perpetrated on the intellect of man, by the real driver..the monkey inside..the 'Known Universe' books by Niven are great. 'The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton' is great, as it takes place in the near future of the Niven 'Known Universe', and covers the idea of 'corpsicles', ie frozen humans who thought they could stave off death by freezing themselves..and then being resuscitated in the future when they might be 'repaired', cured of cancer, disease, etc. We have some of them out there right now. Frozen and waiting.

The more interesting point is the one of the 'Wireheads'..with their 'drouds' and their associated wires placed in their heads, to trickle down into the given person's cranial 'pleasure center' of the brain. It was an old enough trick in these books (in the imagined near future) that it could be done at the equivalent of a barber shop. Some folks would choose this as a form of suicide..by having the electrical delivery device for this 'self pleasuring device', called a 'droud', hacked by someone..and then it would work constantly and at higher levels of energy, instead of just a few seconds at low power levels. Then, they would shorten the cord so it would only plug in to the wall near a chair. Then they would sit down, plug in..and just sit there and slowly die...all hopped up on pure pleasure. If they tried to unplug the device..the sudden loss of extreme pleasure would make them immediately plug it back in again. Thus the police would bust down doors on stinky apartments..and find grinning rotting corpses, sitting in chairs.. plugged into the wall.

These experiments have been done in modern times with differing animals..where they have been wired and given switches to press on to keep the trickle current run into their brains...and have literally died with their paws or whatever on the switch. They refuse to move.

The extreme version of the standard pleasure seeking man of today.

The warning is clear.

We are inches away from this sort of technology today.

What I'm saying is that about 99% to 100% of the posts on this board are reflections of these sort of internal considerations, in whatever level or way they may be. It is as plain as day for anyone who bothers to pay attention.

The monkey runs the show, not matter how much we may think the intellect is in charge. The hindbrain runs the show. How thoughts themselves arise in the mind..and the shape they take and how they are interpreted by others - have zero to do with (on the fundamental level and scale, re cranial design and considerations) with the concept and designs of the idea of intellect, logic and reason.

Realizing that - is one of the first steps one may take toward getting a handle on their own internal considerations.

Good fiction is an ethics and morality tale based on the fundamentals of humans and their interactions. Asimov, Niven, etc...all of the great Sci-Fi and similar works are a reflection of this that is presented to man..the reader of the works.

One can only be centered and walk forward solidly in life, if they pay attention to the fundamentals.

Otherwise, life is just an emotionally overdriven and contrived act, filled with confused and befuddled actors..on a stage of their own imagination and creation.

Until one learns and understands that, they will be subject to having themselves and all they know being driven around by the machinations and contrivances of others with superior intellect and skills, with intentions of -god knows what.....

it can be said in may ways..and even in a simple sentence but can take a lifetime to understand. One fairly well known one being, "Free your mind..and your ass will follow."

es347
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

AlexO said:

"If there is a bad AC waveform coming out of the socket, shouldn't the audio equipments' power supplies rectify this problem?"....Yes and very appropriate wording. Yes I would think so but being more of a power engineer, power supplies are not my expertise per se. It does seem that once you send a DC voltage to the electronics, whatever is happening on the AC line side is moot, at least for audio components. Highly sensitive laboratory equipment is a different ballgame.

..."is ES347 a character from Isaac Asimov's book? I forget the name of it, it's the one with a planet with three suns that experiences an eclipse and everyone goes crazy?"

ES347 is also the model of my Gibson guitar but now that you've mentioned it, Three Suns would be a great name for an exotic power cable...a world where everyone does indeed hear differences!....and barks at the moon.

I must confess that I have yet to really sit in the sweet spot and listen for differences with my new DIY "exotic" power cables. You all are no doubt aware of certain double-blind listening tests that have been conducted with exotic power cables vs. OEM cables. They pretty much proved that, at least in the double-blind environment, correctly identifying differences were level with the toss of a coin. JA's push back is that double-blind testing doesn't really allow participants to hear things that they would otherwise hear in extended listening sessions. Fair enough. To the point, someone asked if I could hear differences. No is the answer but these 60 year old ears are hardly the instruments they were 20-30 years ago either. In addition to my DIY cables, I have two ESP cables on loan from a local shop and I did switch them in and out of my system listening to an SACD...no difference for me but maybe others would have heard something. Another point is...OK you hear a difference, now which is better? That's were all the cliches come in I guess.

We men are a visual lot where much of the thrill, at least for me, is build quality and tactility. I also require high performance/$ with hi rez, non-fatiguing sound. And I get a kick out of tweaks within reason...I draw the line at Tice clocks and Mpingo discs. My system is capable of actually bringing me to tears when the right disc is playing (not a vinyl guy) so that's really enough for this old boy.

es347
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Wow KBK...

"Until one learns and understands that, they will be subject to having themselves and all they know being driven around by the machinations and contrivances of others with superior intellect and skills, with intentions of -god knows what....."

.....with intentions of selling us thousand dollar exotic power cables??, but then God really only knows (my add).

(btw...well written post)

KBK
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
Wow KBK...

"Until one learns and understands that, they will be subject to having themselves and all they know being driven around by the machinations and contrivances of others with superior intellect and skills, with intentions of -god knows what....."

.....with intentions of selling us thousand dollar exotic power cables??, but then God really only knows (my add).

(btw...well written post)

I mention it, as an interesting adjunct..as the world of high end audio does tend to be a meeting place of sorts..where these sorts of considerations of the human condition meet and scuffle about on the floor, arguing with one another.

This is mentioned as the whole idea of a cable working or not, whether double blind works or not, etc..the edge of human perception..like a humanistic drive toward an internal infinity of the given individual..means that like the idea of going the 'speed of light', ie infinity..means that infinity itself must be involved and engaged.

As we strive toward our personal limits of understanding in the world of audio..we invariably find our own internal limits engaged..and thus all of our capacities and considerations end up being part of the package.

So yeah..the idea of double blind testing, finding the limit of human discernment, digging into the limit of measurement and evaluation situations and systems..means that the human is engaged in totality....and it is not and it is never a simple task or point.

If you approach a limit, the simplicity fades away and some deeper form of complexity of the situation arises and shows itself, for those who are paying attention. Or the opposite can be said: When you approach a limit, the complexity fades away..and a deeper form of simplicity arises and shows itself, for those who are paying attention.

If one does not, then the consideration of frustration arises, as the problem does not resolve itself. One must look deeper and wider, has always been the conclusion, with regards to the idea of a loggerheads or unsolved/unresolved problem(s) or issue(s).

One way to say it, is: The bigger the problem, the longer it is taking to resolve, the longer it sits and remains unsolved, the harder to understand--the deeper the fundamental consideration that has been missed..in the formulation of the question itself.

The problem for those who understand that..is the point that there are billions of untrained and un-self realized talking monkeys out there, and there will only be a few seconds passing before one steps in here and tells me I'm full of shit.

After all, as individual packages, we can only do our best to deal with our own internally created limits on our ideas and understandings of what reality is.

RGibran
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

So as to not dissapoint, I was wondering... who cleans up your mess?

RG

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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

There is an old saying, "If women spent as much time screwing with their hubands as they did screwing with their hair, the world would be a much happer place, Jack."

There are audiophiles who spend more time ranting against blind listening than they probably spend listening.

I feel like I'm sitting around with a bunch of modern Pharisees condemning Harry Potter.

ethanwiner
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
There are audiophiles who spend more time ranting against blind listening than they probably spend listening.


LOL, great point. My feeling is that blind testing is needed only for stuff that doesn't really matter anyway. Everyone can hear 5 percent distortion from crappy loudspeakers, or artifacts from a 28 kbps MP3 encoding. But when it comes to stuff that half think they can hear and half cannot, then who cares? A great recording is enjoyable even on AM radio.

--Ethan

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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
There is an old saying, "If women spent as much time screwing with their hubands as they did screwing with their hair, the world would be a much happer place, Jack."

There are audiophiles who spend more time ranting against blind listening than they probably spend listening.

I feel like I'm sitting around with a bunch of modern Pharisees condemning Harry Potter.

Just recently, I went to the local Wally-mart..and found (As I was told by the HD gods) a cut-out bin full of HD-DVD's for $5 each. I obtained the entire available Harry Potter library of films..in HD. I then obtained some recreational combustibles, and then proceeded to do some small bits of home baking just prior to the consumption of the motion picture art essays I had obtained.

They were quite enjoyable. Good solid moral and ethics tales, with a hint here and there of esoteric lore snuck in that will seep into the children's heads..but will..in many cases..sail right over the heads of any adults watching. Nicely done. Bravo.

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Ethan has a point, I was introduced to the Beatles when they came on The Ed Sullivan Show Sunday night many moons ago, on a pretty bad tv in a basement in Carteret N.J. The next day Modany it was all over the AM radio we had at home, I was not yet have my own stuff, I was only about 9 or 10 I think...AM radio with WMCA good guys and The BEATLES....the world of music changed, it was like I missed Elvis coming on board, but I was there for the Beatles and all teh rest that came in that era. 45 RPM singels, AM radio, too bad now with low fi MP3 they don't have the music of substance, but just teh 21st century AM radio 45 RPM singles, with nothing worth playing on it!!! 35 cents for teh 45 single, sells for hundreds now, if ya finda any with any groove left on em. Nothing like Ceramic cartridges with flip over stylus...on an all in one hi fi console....those where when teh music meant something...

es347
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

TEH = THE methinks...sorry couldn't resist.

es347
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Whew! Ever considered changing your username to Wm. F. Buckley?

es347
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Woah Nellie. In my humble opinion it's pretty darned important to know the truth when shelling out a grand for a POWER CORD. I personally would like to see all hi-fi snake oil salesmen tarred and feathered...and journalists who support their ridiculous claims, even though we are all adults here (my assumption) and are accountable for our personal finances. There are audiofools out there who would sell their mothers' iron lungs for a pr. of MIT Oracle speaker cables and they are the ones at the front of the dungeons & dragons tweak queue. I guess I really don't care about the wel heeld getting burned but I do care about Joe Middle Class forking over serious dollars to these charlatans. So yeah, I believe that blind testing could be helpful but it never will be when guys like JA dismiss it offhandedly and why not? From a business standpoint, legitimizing the blind testing process wouldn't be particularly prudent on his part.

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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Buckley was always a little too weird for me. Or anyone else, for that matter. People watched him out of morbid fascination, methinks. Every time I saw him, I always thought he should have stayed just another week or two in the burn unit. But then again, there is a particular skin type that is a dead giveaway......

One strike: Buckley was born in New York City to lawyer and oil baron William Frank Buckley, Sr....

Two strikes:When in 1951 I was inducted into the CIA as a deep cover agent...

Three strikes:Buckley was a defender of McCarthyism, writing a book in 1954 McCarthy and his Enemies, in which he asserted that "McCarthyism ... is a movement around which men of good will and stern morality can close ranks."....

Out!!!

rabpaul
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


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I personally would like to see all hi-fi snake oil salesmen tarred and feathered...and journalists who support their ridiculous claims, even though we are all adults here (my assumption) and are accountable for our personal finances. There are audiofools out there who would sell their mothers' iron lungs for a pr. of MIT Oracle speaker cables and they are the ones at the front of the dungeons & dragons tweak queue. I guess I really don't care about the wel heeld getting burned but I do care about Joe Middle Class forking over serious dollars to these charlatans.


So everyone who sells cables is out to take you for a ride?
Well this middle class Joe thanks you for your concern but thinks its misplaced and adds that he is old enough to know how to spend his own money.
As mentioned previously, I replaced a branded (also sold in bulk, self terminated branded power cable) with a > 1K power cable. I had long suspectable that I was a little bass heavy and had a little less on the top. Well this cable changed/corrected the tonal balance alright but it did something else too i.e it brought out details that I never knew existed in my music. I just can't put a value on musical detail e.g I did not know that there is actually a harpsichord in the background of a piece of music I have had for 20 years.
Not every audiophile is gullable.

andy19191
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

> WTL:
> I too still am skeptical, but credible people have made the claim of audible
> difference despite your (and many others') logic that the last 6 feet is
> unlikely to make a difference.

Nonsense. Name one.

> RabPaul:
> So everyone who sells cables is out to take you for a ride?

It depends what you mean by a ride. The people selling cables strive to make the product sufficiently attractive to people in a particular small market segment so that they part with their money. In doing this they seriously alienate people in another market segment. The people in the former group do not consider themselves being taken for a ride at the time of purchase although a few may well later. The people in the latter segment are not taken for a ride because they are not consumers of audiophile cables. Some get indignant on behalf of the former whereas others do not.

Apart from the odd nutter in a garage, I am aware of no evidence to suggest that the producers of magic audiophile cables believe in the magic. But do they have a contempt for their consumers as would implied by taking them for a ride? Or, perhaps, do they create products for a particular market segment and take a degree of pride in doing so even though they recognise a lack of intelligence in their customers? My guess is a mix of the two. Despite my zero interest in audiophile cables, I have direct experience of the latter but strongly suspect the former is going to be quite widespread based on my experience of human nature.

> Well this middle class Joe thanks you for your concern but thinks its
> misplaced and adds that he is old enough to know how to spend his own money.

I fully agree with this. Sufficient state intervention to prevent a fool being parted from his money when it comes to harmless luxury goods is not a society I want to live in. I would go further and suggest it is not a society any sane person would want to live in. In this regard, the laws we have at the moment are about right give or take the odd tweak here and there.

> As mentioned previously, I replaced a branded (also sold in bulk, self
> terminated branded power cable) with a > 1K power cable. I had long
> suspectable that I was a little bass heavy and had a little less on the top.
> Well this cable changed/corrected the tonal balance alright but it did
> something else too i.e it brought out details that I never knew existed in my
> music. I just can't put a value on musical detail e.g I did not know that
> there is actually a harpsichord in the background of a piece of music I have
> had for 20 years.

Consider what it takes to make people believe or disbelieve this assertion:

- Many audiophiles will happily accept it without question because they do not understand (or want to understand) what constitutes reliable evidence about the behaviour of the world around them. It also helps a lot in being what they want to believe.

- Some other audiophiles will have noticed that quite a few statements made by anonymous audiophiles in web chat groups have not lined up with their past experiences and so will not accept it as being necessarily true. However, because they have no reliable basis for determining how the world around them works they will not be able to consider it false either but something that may or may not be true. Information from other sources may sway things one way or another.

- Those that believe scientific knowledge about the behaviour of cables is true will disbelieve your assertion that some unknown property of the cable is changing the sound in the room sufficiently to be audible. This is not to say your perceptions are necessarily false but your projection of them onto the real world is false. In addition, the possiblity exists that there is something abnormal in the equipment or environment.

> Not every audiophile is gullable.

It depends on what a person understands by the word audiophile. For some that believe that established scientific knowledge about sound, sound perception and electrical equipment is true, it is part of the definition of audiophile (100% gullible). Whereas for audiophiles themselves it is obviously not going to be true (0% gullible).

Jim Tavegia
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

I would add that I was always skeptical about "wire" and power cords until I had a recording issue with an old desk top and used an MIT power cord which dropped the noise floor "visibly" over 10DB. This was not an insignificant improvement. I have used a number of manufacturer's power conditioners with varying degrees, but all successful.

With cabeling it is different, but very simple. Try anything once and if you can hear the difference and it matters to you then buy it. If I can't hear a difference I would not spend the money.

It certainly makes a difference on tonearm wiring. This even I could hear easily.

RGibran
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
I just can't put a value on musical detail e.g I did not know that there is actually a harpsichord in the background of a piece of music I have had for 20 years.
Not every audiophile is gullable.

This is most interesting. I have never heard a claim that a power cord made an instrument appear in a familiar piece of music. I have personally experienced this with audio components but never with cables.

I

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

A cord can remove instruments from the recording, and another one can place it in the recording? That is MAGIC. Are the cords labeled for different instruments, like this cord here puts in Hammond organ on the left side, while the Ozark mountain cable with granite particles from the north cliff of the magic mountain, will put a Zildgin 12" cymbal on both channels. This is really funny stuff. Did AQ discontinue any Les Paul guitar cable putters and moved them to HCM, where all old mountains of magic go sooner or latter. Surprised AQ doesn't have a planet theme yet, it's coming...I'm sure. since rocks, mountains, reptiles they seem to cover it all, change the braided mesh covers (available at MCm or Parts Express or Allied Elec), and make some fancy pictures, you got your self MAGIC wires....

CECE
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Buddha, was that the Gullible XRL2100 from Magic Gullible Industries, a div of Magic Plugs Inc.

Elk
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


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This is most interesting. I have never heard a claim that a power cord made an instrument appear in a familiar piece of music. I have personally experienced this with audio components but never with cables.

I

ethanwiner
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


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Woah Nellie. In my humble opinion it's pretty darned important to know the truth when shelling out a grand for a POWER CORD.


Please don't misunderstand me - of course blind testing is useful and needed. I'm convinced that reports of improvements from replacement power cords are due to a combination of faulty perception and comb filtering. Note that that sound always gets better when a speaker or power wire is changed, never worse or just different. Jim Tavegia reports more than 10 dB reduction in background noise after replacing one power cord. This can be easily verified with measurements! But when you or I make that point, we're called "meter readers" and "woodies," and the believers argue they can hear things that "science" has not yet learned how to measure. Guys, you can't have it both ways. You can't cite noise measurements as proof, and at the same time say science is ignorant for other measurements.

My point is that in the grand scheme of things, tiny changes in audio quality do not make or break a satisfying listening experience. Maybe AM radio is not the best example, so how about band limiting music at 15 KHz? Yes, you can hear a tiny loss of sparkle, but a good recording will still sound clear and full etc.


Quote:
From a business standpoint, legitimizing the blind testing process wouldn't be particularly prudent on his part.


No kidding. Of course, blind testing is already fully legitimate in all fields of science. It's only some audiophiles who fail to understand that.

--Ethan

es347
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Gentlemen,

I suppose that I should apologize for pulling the scab off what must be a slow-to-heal power cable wound. I am feeling my way on this board so sorry about that, but being a somewhat knowledgeable electrical engineer who was immersed in this hobby some 40 years ago, I can't help but be somewhat pragmatic with opinions. Sorry but I can't take the exotic power cable claims seriously. From an engineering point of view it's illogical. I will say this however, I replaced all four of my power cords with some really cool looking 12/3 STO cord w/braiding and Wattgate connectors. I also use a Power Wedge which I have had in my system for over 10 years now. I'd like to think the power "conditioner" makes an audible difference but can't swear that it does. The power cords make no difference whatsoever but they look great. The faceplate of my preamplifier is 1/4" milled unobtanium or some such metal. It looks great too but I doubt seriously that it makes any sonic difference. I don't begrudge people who buy this stuff at all. If you are convinced that a $1K power cable makes your system sound better then by all means buy it. But stop and think about relative costs here. If you are familiar with the MIT Oracle speaker cable its a great example to cite. It now sells for over $20K I think. It looks great...build quality, heft, etc. but lay those cables down beside a couple of McIntosh monoblocks for example. Not sure of the exact price of the Macs but doesn't that seem like madness to you? A cable?? As a side note, I find it truly interesting that we all are so anal about the components in the signal path but we are perfectly willing to use MIT cables that literally have a black box right there in the signal path and precious little information exists as to what's inside it. But I digress. Don't kid yourself; this hobby is very visual, very tactile and we are more than a little influenced by those other senses when it comes to equipment purchase, and, I contend, that it influences what we think we are hearing. I'm just as guilty of that as anyone. I'll put a sock in it for now...I appreciate your indulgence.

mikeymad
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


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DUP, I happen to share your views on expensive cables. Really. But, here your just picking a fight for no reason.

It is normaly called trolling and it is banned from most forums....

back to reading random thoughts that will never change anyones minds about any topic....

oh, and there are a lot of companies that will mod your Marantz with very nice wire if you like.

Cheers,

bifcake
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
If you are familiar with the MIT Oracle speaker cable its a great example to cite. It now sells for over $20K I think. It looks great...build quality, heft, etc. but lay those cables down beside a couple of McIntosh monoblocks for example. Not sure of the exact price of the Macs but doesn't that seem like madness to you? A cable?? As a side note, I find it truly interesting that we all are so anal about the components in the signal path but we are perfectly willing to use MIT cables that literally have a black box right there in the signal path and precious little information exists as to what's inside it.

Anyone up to springing for an oracle cable and popping the box open to see what's inside?

judicata
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


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Anyone up to springing for an oracle cable and popping the box open to see what's inside?

If we get about 9,998 more people on board, count me in.

bifcake
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Perhaps we can do one of those "hands across America" type of things to raise money for our cause.

Elk
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

We can use DUP's t-shirt idea as a fund raiser:

"Show us your PRaT!"

tomjtx
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Why don't we see if MIT would supply one for their manufacturing cost, which I presume wouldn't be more than 50.00

bifcake
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


Quote:
Why don't we see if MIT would supply one for their manufacturing cost, which I presume wouldn't be more than 50.00

Oh sure, I can just see the request letter:

"Dear MIT,

We, the avid readers of Stereophile magazine would very much like to requisition one of your premium cables at cost, which we expect to be no more than $50, so that we may open the box, find out what's inside it. We suspect that the box is empty. Once our suspicions are confirmed, we will spend the rest of our time mocking you for all eternity on the Internet forums.

Thank you for your cooperation. We look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Stereophile Forum members."

tomjtx
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...

Alex,

I hereby appoint you as our official representative to MIT.

Your letter sucinctly and diplomatically conveys our intent.

I wish you luck in your follow up phone calls to MIT.

rabpaul
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


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stop and think about relative costs here.


Logical thinking suggests that a cable powering a component should not cost more than the component itself.
Anyone who owns a Hydra will tell you that its only as good as the cable that powers it. I believe this thinking does apply to some components.
I have often wondered if its ok (logical?) to use an interconnect that costs more than the component its connected to.
You know something, logic has nothing to with it.
How far you want to go, how much you want to spend is really up to you.
An audiophile does not need to justify his spending to anyone.
The ends justifies the means.

bifcake
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Re: After you plugged in those $1,000 wires...


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Alex,

I hereby appoint you as our official representative to MIT.

Your letter sucinctly and diplomatically conveys our intent.

I wish you luck in your follow up phone calls to MIT.

Cool! Is there money in it for me?

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