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Does anyone know how good the ADCOM Power amps are wrt Classical music?

Gee, you do know how to ask a broad question. I would say a quick look at the prices would tell you they are not in the league of a Krell or Bryston product.

May I ask why you are interested in the Adcom products if you cannot audition them before making a purchase?

My My, aren't you the helpful one.

You really think the OP was asking about the prices?

Hmmm, let's see, because they aren't in the same price category they obviously are not as good.

There you have it, according to JV!

RG

Hey, vanDee, welcome!

I will cop to being an Adcom fan, and think they compare very favorably with Brystons.

In general, and this is purely for the two channel Adcoms, they have always made a point of having excellent current capacity, a forgiving nature for some difficult impedances, and really well considered transformers.

I think they are quite neutral.

I still use a pair of Adcom 585's to drive my Apogee speakers, and an audio buddy of mine who right now has his sytem sounding killer spot on also uses Adcoms.

I find them to be unassuming in a good way, and well worth your time to try to audition.

I'm amazed there aren't any in Houston to audition!

Maybe over in Nome or Beaumont?

(Sorry, southeast Texas joke. I like that area.)

I also like Krell, and use an KRC-HR as the preamp for those amps with good result. Using the Adcoms is not a matter of budget, I just really like them.

I'd mention them in the same category as the Portal Audio Paladin amplifiers.

Also similar would be (pretty much) some of the PS Audio amplifier line, only the Adcoms have a slight edge in powerage. I almost hesitate to overl compare those two brands but I'm trying to think of family resemblance.

When I bought the Adcoms, I also looked at the Krells, but preferred the treble of the Adcoms.

So, if you can, maybe head to some civilized town, like Dallas or Austin and see if you can audition them!

What speakers and preamp are you going to use?

Adcom components have won over 25 Product of the Year and Special Recognition citations from Audio Video International, 3 Diapason D'Or Awards, 7 Consumer Electronics Show Design and Engineering Awards, and have appeared on Stereophile's "Recommended Components" lists over 70 times since 1988.

So they say...

RG

vanDee,

Welcome aboard.

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Does anyone know how good the ADCOM Power amps are wrt Classical music?

Gee, you do know how to ask a broad question. I would say a quick look at the prices would tell you they are not in the league of a Krell or Bryston product.

May I ask why you are interested in the Adcom products if you cannot audition them before making a purchase?

Careful Jan. Nothing wrong with trying to get an idea of what is attained by going to higher end stuff.

I have an Adcom 555 that I used for many years, which I currently use for the home theater portion of my system, since replaced by a Music Reference RM200II for music. In a nutshell, I find the Adcom a little bright, not particularly resolving in the midrange, but with a tight, if not quite tuneful, bass. Having written that, I think they punch way above their price class, and are built like tanks. I also use a 535II for my surround speakers.

For what they go for used, I think they are a no-brainer.

Count me in the Adcom is well build, well designed, affordable gear camp. Not in the same league as a Krell, but not much is.

For many years I had an Adcom GFA-5802 which is a Nelson Pass design without the Nelson Pass price on the used market you should be able to get one for about $1,000. Mine drove Martin Logan CLS speakers happily which is extremely impressive because they are some of the most difficult to drive speakers ever made. Their impedance varies between 0.78 ohms all the way up to 16 ohms between 20Hz to 20kHz. It's predecessor, the GFA-5800 is also highly regarded. A very, very similar circuit just 50 watts power.

The matching preamp, GFP-750 is also a Nelson Pass design and was Stereophile Class "A" rated at one time. The next cheapest pre in Class "A" at the time was twice as much. You can probably find one for $750 used. I still use my 750 and I've tried a couple of well regarded $3,000 preamps that were a "little" better. By "little" I mean in the audiophile sense, which means almost not at all better. Both are truly balanced and not psudo-balanced.

With respect to Nelson Pass. I've never heard even a mediocre sounding design from him. Everything he has any input into sounds great. When talking to a rival designer about Nelson's track record he said without a trace of irony, "He could make a toaster sound good."

For years I've heard rumors that he was somewhat involved with the design of the GFA-555 as well, which was considered a giant killer in it's day. The level of involvement differs depending on the source, but listening to it tells me he had SOMETHING to do with it.

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My My, aren't you the helpful one.

How does insulting me answer the op's question? Just what is your definition of "helpful"?

If you don't want to look at the retail price of a Krell vs. an Adcom, look at the resale price of both and tell me if they are in the same league. I don't feel they are.

So Jan, why not help our new member of the forum and provide him with your impression of Adcom amps, specifically with respect to the reproduction of classical music?

I don't have that much experience with them, but have liked what I have heard. I primarily listen to classical.

Your turn, Jan - something productive please.

What is there to say? How is an amp with classical music?

I have no idea!

Which Adcom amp? How is the amp with your speakers? How are your speakers with your room? How is your source in comparison to the rest of the system? What electronics would the Adcom replace? What sort of "classical" music? Mahler? Bach? Period instruments? How loud? What's important to you when you listen? What's your reference for listening? And lots of other things that need to be answered before I can voice any opinion about an amp and classical music.

The question, as it stands, is similar to asking, "How is red wine with food?"

I asked the question I thought was most relevant to the topic with my first post. Why would the op, with limited knowledge of a product, consider buying it without an audition when there are obviously other equally as good or better components in Houston/San Antonio/Austin (all no more than an hour and a half drive from Houston proper) that could be heard before money changed hands? If the op is simply looking for someone else to validate his selection, he can do that on the web without problem. Shouldn't take more than a few seconds to find a positive review of a generic Adcom amplifier. If the op is looking for specific information, then I'll need more specific information before I can answer. Otherwise, red wine is good with food but I would limit my intake at breakfast.

If that's not positive enough for you, then I guess that will have to do none the less.

Hi

Adcom is one of those companies that just seems to do its own thing and has developed a pretty good business.

I just get the impression that they are good quality pro audio based amps that provide reliable good service but are not really great sounding.

This is however purely an impression and ive never heard the amplifiers so it could be all wrong

Alan

As far as I can tell no one has addressed the op's question. How are Adcom amps with classical music?

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As far as I can tell no one has addressed the op's question. How are Adcom amps with classical music?

You finally addressed it saying "I don't know", in which case perhaps you should bow out gracefully!

It

No, they would be frivolously wasting money on components that do not serve their purpose. It's called "qualifying" the purchase and it's one of the first things any decent salesperson learns. The purpose of the forum should be very much the same as any good salesperson when the question becomes, "What should I buy?" Naming something you like is an act of egotism that does not help the questioner.

Find out the wants, needs and desires of the client before pushing something whether it suits their intentions or not. You cannot help someone by simply tossing a name into the ring no matter how good you feel that name is. What you hear is not what they hear. udp proved that innumerable times. Anyone with any sense of this hobby knows that to be true.

The point of any good system is a synergistic combination of parts that will compliment the strengths of each component while down playing the weaknesses of the others. The client's most basic task is to identify what qualities they desire and then make choices among the various options available that might suit those desires to some extent or another.

If the client cannot identify simple qualities they find attractive, then the way to assist them is to guide them toward qualities they suggest they might prefer, not just to a product. Simply saying, "Then buy this", serves no one's purpose other than the person who just doesn't want to be bothered by uninformed questions. Would it kill you to ask the proper questions?

If you just want to move on to the next squabble on this forum, that's your business. You seem to follow me around trying to start a fight over things you do not understand and do not care to learn. I'm not interested in your BS. If you think these are anal rettentive questions, then IMO you should not participate in any thread asking for product recommendations. These are the questions that need to be asked and answered before the recommendation can be made. Unfortunately, too many people are too willing to stroke their own egos by recommending what they like rather than finding out what the op needs.

Who is it that should bow out here?

Unfortunately it appears that yet another new member has been pushed away by the initial response received to a well-meaning post.

I hope I am wrong and that the OP returns.

Jackfish, great response to the post regarding speakers on the other thread started by the OP. You are an amazing resource.

Since that is a reply to me, am I to assume you are blaming me for the lack of a response by the op? If so, you would be blaming me for what? Asking a question? Not providing a knee jerk reaction to a far too simple post? Just who produced the first insult in this thread? It was not me!

Have you considered the op might not even remember all the forums he posted on and has not found his way back to this forum? Maybe he works for a lving and he hasn't looked at the forum since he posted the question less than 24 hours ago.

Less than 24 hours ago! There's a reason to write him off. He isn't sitting by the computer waiting for a reply.

Possibly all he wanted was someone to say Adcom is OK and he got the reinforcement he required from that alone.

Why not encourage him to come back if he is still out there instead of writing him off as a lost cause? Criminey, Elk! Offer him some advice instead of assuming the worst has happened again. Let's be a little positive and not so constantly negative. At least udp didn't get to him.

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Gee, you do know how to ask a broad question. I would say a quick look at the prices would tell you they are not in the league of a Krell or Bryston product.

May I ask why you are interested in the Adcom products if you cannot audition them before making a purchase?

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you would be blaming me for what? Asking a question? Not providing a knee jerk reaction to a far too simple post?

There's a reason to write him off.

I think the objection is in the tone of your reaction. His question is simple and uninformed but he admits that. Whats wrong with helping a guy out? Your offhanded remark seemed to be saying "stupid question kid the answer is obvious. What more can you give me that I can criticize".

Your follow-up comments seem continue that type of disdain for his position and the superiorty of yours.

A little courtesy never hurt anyone.

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Possibly all he wanted was someone to say Adcom is OK and he got the reinforcement he required from that alone.

Ya Think?

Hang in there, pay close attention and we will teach you how to hone those

Oh, yeah, those two posts moved the discussion forward. Very nice job.

Hello all. Many thanks for all the replies. In fact I am sorry this has caused so much stir. The good news is that some of the answers have helped me. Sounds like ADCOM is at least worth auditioning. Will probably have to do that outside Houston area. However before I do that one of the questions I should also have asked is what alternative I should consider that have optical input ports? Any suggestions (and no, does not need to be a Krell).

Once again many thanks!!

P.S. Sorry for the late response - I have not been put off.

Optical inputs? Maybe you mean a surround receiver. The other options would be Rotel, Arcam, and B&K. Those recommendations would also hold for stereo amplifiers as well that are roughly in the same price/performance category.

Big Adcom fan here, I've got 3 amps, 4 pre-amps, and 2 tuners made by the company. I have found Adcom gear to offer excellent sound quality, great build quality, and outstanding value, especially when you consider the price. I also listen to a lot of classical music. I've had a GFA-555 mkII (200 wpc) driving Infinity RS-IIIb's for years, and think it does an excellent job on classical music with these speakers. I find this combination to have great imaging; clean, natural treble; and tight, quick bass with no hint of flab.

I also have a GFA-535 driving KEF Reference 102s, and again the sound is very good. This combination is sweet sounding, with surprising bass extension and weight considering the small woofer and cabinet of the baby KEFs.

Just my $0.02 worth, but I don't think you can go wrong with Adcom gear. They will serve up good, reliable sound until you get the upgrade bug and move on up the audio food chain.

I don't know about opportunities for audition but I really liked the Emotiva RSP-1 and XPA-2 I recently heard at an acquaintance's house. An amazing sound for $1430. Particularly nice driving Meadowlark HotRod Shearwater loudspeakers.

For digital input you will need a Squeezebox and/or DAC. It sounds like you want to keep things two channel.

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However before I do that one of the questions I should also have asked is what alternative I should consider that have optical input ports?

Optical inputs coming from what source?

Am I allowed to ask that question? Is someone - not you vanDee - going to get their panties in a twist because I asked a question? Ooooooh, we may never hear from vanDee again because he was freightened by a question.

It's easy to answer someone's question on the Internet without having an attitude in your answer. Too often, posts on the Stereophile forum end up with one or more responses that convey the snooty attitude, "You have asked a stupid, ignorant question." This attitude turns people off and they take their questions elsewhere unless they want to get into a flame war. What's left here, unfortunately, is a often bunch of people trying to show each other who knows more than the other. sad...

Indeed Jackfish, looking to do stereo/2channel (because I hear that that will provide best result for my Classical music), I would not mind doing 5 or 7 channel if that's worth it and add to the experience - currently thinking starting 2 channel and later upgrading to 5... does that make sense? Thanks again!

Thanks for that. Good to hear and some useful descriptive material for me to think about.

Jan, Apple TV was the source I was hoping to use to play music.

Then I'm missing how the optical input gets involved with an Adcom product. You have never answered the question which Adcom product(s) you are considering. What sort of system are you thinking about putting together? Can you briefly describe just how you see each piece working with the next?

Since this was again posted as a reply to me, I'll assume I am again being blamed for something that did not occur. I understand the feeeling of not knowing what you do not know. But if you are going to be offended by any response to your overly broad question, a response such as, "You've asked a very broad question", then you are going to have a hard time traversing the waters of consumer audio or life for that matter.

If you asked a mathmetician how he arrived at the final number of a formula that took up an entire page of calculations, you would very likely get the same response, "your question is too broad." At the moment we are suffering through another election year where tax policy, foreign policy and social policies are being reduced to fifteen second sound bites. Simply treating all questions as if they can be answered in fifteen seconds without any feedback has not served us well over the course of the last few decades. It will not serve us well in the future. If you think all your questions are brilliant, you should re-examine your thinking. Most are not, especially when you are unfamiliar with the territory.

So, asking questions and stating up front where someone has veered from the course or can't find the destination because they cannot focus on the map is hardly a bad thing.

vanDee admitted his lack of information, that puts him a step ahead of someone who gets offended when called a noobie. He was not offended and he came back within the allotted twenty four hour time span we graciously extend to those not actively engaged in the battles that go on here on this forum where a quick reply is your best weapon.

What I find more offensive is the constant sniping that exists on these threads only because some members continue to harbor grudges that get in the way of serving the op and the forum. Like I said, I did not insert the first insult into this thread. It would be very easy for these threads to not decend into blood baths. But not asking a question to get clarification isn't what is required for that to happen.

vanDee,

It appears that you are looking for a decent receiver that can take an optical input, covert it and power a pair of speakers, yes?

If so, Adcom receivers would make a good choice. There are also many other alternatives, such as those made by Onkyo, which you may want to consider.

Consider however that if all you want to do is to listen to stereo music from a digital source and have no need for video, surround speakers and the like, there may be more cost efficient options.

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Jan, Apple TV was the source I was hoping to use to play music.

Are you married to the Apple TV? The "problem" is that it only has optical digital output, coaxial digital out is a little better. Another option might be one of the Slim Devices products. Some good DAC's (Digital to Analog Converter) that you might consider would be the PS Audio Digital Link III, one of the Benchmark products, or one of the Grace products. There are very few two channel products that have digital inputs. Bryston does offer optional digital ins on all of their integrated amps (pre amp and power amp in one box) and preamp. Just so terms are clear:

-Preamp-selects between sources and adjusts volume.

-(Power) Amplifier-creates a signal capable of powering the speakers. Usually used with a preamp.

-Integrated Amplifier-Preamp and amp built into one product.

-Receiver-AM/FM tuner, preamp, and amp built into one box. There are very, very few truly good sounding receivers most are big compromises. The Rotel RX-1052 is an exception.

Yep, Good point actually:
I have not decided although I have looked at the 5 or 7 channel GFAs either the 200 or 300 WPC as an idea simply because someone recommended them and they have an optical input... so, as I was more interested in the stereo, I was hoping to find a 2 channel ADCOM which they have but I do not seem to be able to unearth whether that has an optical input... A long answer, but in essence a good quality stereo sound is what I was after using as few components as possible (was thinking: Apple TV to Preamp to Power amp to speakers possibly with a good power stabilizer/cleaner).

If someone convinces me that I van get just as good or better sound from a good 5 channel on my 2 main speakers or on all 5 (don't have the other 3 yet) then I would be just as happy or happier to go with that - I just don't want two systems next to each other (one for Media/Video and one for the stereo).

As I do not seem to be able to find an ADCOM auditioning place near Houston, the original was because I wanted to seek some input on ADCOM before I trek over some distance to listen... seems like they are well worth the trip...

Maybe you have a much better suggestion, I am not married to the ADCOM idea yet and do not even know whether the stereo amp has an optical input (which I gather was designed with video and surround sound in mind).

Does that make more sense to you?

Yes Elk, Good to hear that you think ADCOM is good. The priority for me is good quality sound to play classical music. If that can be served with a 5 or 7 channel receiver that also serves to play movies that might be great if the cost if not prohibitive. Frankly I am discovering more every time I get a reply about how little I know about all of this - steep learning curve!

The reason I am interested in good quality stereo is because I like all sorts of music but I really don't like classical music all all unless it is live or on a really good system: When we tested several systems and combinations of speaker, cables and amps in Oxford/UK, we ended up with a system that would have to cost some GBP12000!!

Thanks for your help!

Am I correct that you have not chosen speakers yet? Speakers will in many ways determine which amplifier you should purchase. Choosing an amplifier and then choosing speakers tends to put the cart before the horse or at least limit your selection in speakers.

How have you made your decisions up to this point? Have you stopped in any of the better shops in the Houston area to get a sense for what they recommend?

I have Polk Audio RTi9a speakers and used them with a 100WPC pioneer integrated amp (5 channel) using the ATV as the source via optical cable.

The result is not great. At low volumes the bass is almost non-existent and the music sound high pitched and bland. Turn the volume u and the bass starts to kick in. I am using this as an experimental setup with monster speaker cables (which I have heard from Best are great but others tell me not). I have simply not been able to find a hifi store like the ones in the UK where you can listen to a large variety of systems and mix speakers with amps etc. There is one store that just seems to want to sell me B&W speakers with Classe Amps for some 20-25k$. There is another store we have not been to yet. in two weeks perhaps.

I am not married to the ATV, but love the way I can organise music on it from iTunes and the idea of just having an ATV an Amp (set) and speakers appealed to me for the simplicity. Are ther other systems that offer the convenience of the ATV with the quality of a good music source (maybe ATV is not a good music source?). Interesting that coax would be better than optical... is digital not binary and therefore equal? I guess you will tell me not. If I used a DAC after the ATV would that improve things? (apart from presumably opening more options for the amp selection...)

Thanks!

Optical has more jitter. As mentioned in an earlier post Robert Harley in his book "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" defines digital jitter as follows: "Timing variations in the clock that synchronizes events in a digital audio system. The clock could be in an analog-to-digital converter that controls when each audio sample is taken. Of more interest to audiophile is clock jitter in digital audio reproduction; the clock controls the timing of the reconstruction of digital audio samples into an analog signal. Jitter degrades musical fidelity."In short all the ones and zeros are right but the clock that tells the digital to analog converter in a CD player WHEN to decode them is wrong. Many of the DAC that I suggested are really good at rejecting jitter, so it's not as much of an issue as it used to be but if possible why not avoid optical at together? Better safe than sorry.

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Speakers will in many ways determine which amplifier you should purchase. Choosing an amplifier and then choosing speakers tends to put the cart before the horse or at least limit your selection in speakers.

Jan is absolutely correct. The importance of this can not be overstated.

I would go one step further and suggest you determine how loud you want to go.

See this thread for more info:
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=51667&an=0&page=0#Post51667

Thank you Scott and Jan. I will have a look into your link.

Hi Budda, Well thanks and sorry I didn't realise I had not yet replied to your useful input. Amazing that you find the ADCOM comparable to the Krell. Just goes to show... Based on all the advise I have decided I must audition ADCOM myself. While I have not been able to find ADCOM dealer in Houston, I am sure they are here - Houston has everything after all shopwise that is (as a European I feel spoilt for choice although when it comes to Hifi I guess England may be a Meca. Thanks for all the advise!

Aha, now that makes a lot of sense and I now understand what you meant. Is there a reason that coax is better? and is an analogue output from an Apple TV better you think than the digital signal. The reason for asking is because I imagine the digital data from the HDD needs to be converted to Analogue with a good conversion clock too.

Thanks. This forum has really educated me on so many fronts. I appreciate all the time from everyone. Sorry I caused so much controversy with my open question: I guess its hard to ask the right question if you not sufficiently at home with material to be more pointed. In future I will try to be more clear and specific. that might help everyone. THANKS!

No, the optical out put with a good DAC specifically designed to help to reject jitter would be better than using the analog outs of an Apple TV. Relatively cheap chips will do much more damage to an analog signal than to a digital one.

I am still confused as to just how Optical is worse than coax?

Is there some sort of publication with data to back this up?

we are dealing with digital, right? the bitstream will be transported or it will not.. if it doesnt, you wont hear anything.

Please enlighten.

A number of people say that optical connections are more subject to jitter than coax, and they have offered various graphs and mathematical explanations to support this. I don't know if they are right or not, but personally I have not been able to detect any difference between coaxial and optical connections between two pieces of equipment. If others have had a different experience, exactly what difference did you hear and how can you be sure that the difference you heard was reliable and not based on chance?

Ive never heard a difference either, and it would seem to me, that logically...no differences would exist?.

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A number of people say that optical connections are more subject to jitter than coax, and they have offered various graphs and mathematical explanations to support this. I don't know if they are right or not, but personally I have not been able to detect any difference between coaxial and optical connections between two pieces of equipment. If others have had a different experience, exactly what difference did you hear and how can you be sure that the difference you heard was reliable and not based on chance?

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Ive never heard a difference either, and it would seem to me, that logically...no differences would exist?.

As I understanding it the increased potential for jitter exists because the signal is being changed from electrical to optical and then back. Implementation is the real issue. Its easier to do coax.

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Implementation is the real issue. Its easier to do coax.

Yes.

It is easy to do cheap optical, but good optical takes money and greater sophistication - as well as higher quality cables with polished lenses, glass or similar conductors, etc.. Coax is much easier to implement and the cables are easier as well.

OTOH, good optical is a spectacularly excellent transfer medium - such as the stuff used in high-speed telephone communications.

OK, so what differences would someone expect to hear on an optical versus a coax connection if the optical were worse (or even different)?

that question cannot be answered, friend. the root of that argument has nothing to do with fact, and therefore, has no answer.

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OK, so what differences would someone expect to hear on an optical versus a coax connection if the optical were worse (or even different)?